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Re: [existlist] Digest Number 167

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  • patty duke
    I agree with what has been said about subjective reality--people make clear distinctions between where they end and where the outside world begings, and tend
    Message 1 of 2 , Aug 9 7:08 PM
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      I agree with what has been said about subjective
      reality--people make clear distinctions between where
      they end and where the outside world begings, and tend
      to interpret this separation as objective. I am one
      reality, a clear truth for myself, and the outside
      world is in front of me, an "external reality"; but
      after all, percieved reality will always depend on who
      is percieving and in such conditions cannot recieve
      any other description than a subjective one.

      Social systems of perception tend to help things, but
      can sometimes complicate them as well. On the topic of
      TRUTH, what I find most relevant is not exactly WHAT
      is the "real truth", which as discussed cannot be
      really defined, but how we can continue in such
      complex social systems (especially at the
      international level we have reached and are in the
      process of creating) when we all rely on different
      criteria to define what reality is and SHOULD be.

      This is a very philosophical subject, with very strong
      political implications.

      By the way, Amber, cool web page, I went into the
      Ghandi area, related to this...I believe that in the
      search for truth we find it impossible to deny thruths
      we may know to be false, but then how do we live our
      lives without becoming hypocrites or irrespectful with
      ourselves or others? When is tolerance neccesarry, and
      when is there need to abandon it and profess our own
      truth without reserve? These questions are always with
      me.

      --- Randy Zeitman <randzman@...> wrote:
      > >
      > >Message: 1
      > > Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 14:58:32 -0000
      > > From: "Jack Darach" <jack.darach@...>
      > >Subject: A Flat Earth
      > >
      > >Hi,
      > >
      > >I've just joined this list and was immediately
      > stirred into thought
      > >by the following passage, please forgive me if what
      > I say is a bit
      > >off
      > >topic.
      > >
      > >>And if you don't buy the stories, ask yourself,
      > "what is truth ?" To
      > >a
      > >>large extent, it is relative and subjective. (For
      > all intents and
      > >>purposes the earth was flat, until we collectively
      > agreed to believe
      > > >otherwise... or was it?)
      > >
      > >The earth was never flat even if all the people in
      > the world believed
      > >it was.They could never have been in a position to
      > act upon their
      > >belief.
      > >Consider Ian McDuff, a Scottish pirate of some
      > repute, who decided one
      > >day to sail off the edge of the world. He believed
      > the earth was
      > >flat,
      > >and this belief was generally thought of as true in
      > his time.
      > >
      > >But try as he might he could not find the edge,
      > twenty five years
      > >later
      > >he died a sad death, staring into a glass of ale
      > dreaming of a
      > >waterfall that never ended.
      > >
      > >The choice to sail off the world was never open to
      > him because the
      > >earth was in fact round.
      > >And more generally I'd say the truth of a belief is
      > not dependent on
      > >collective agreement. They could not act on their
      > belief, and so it
      > >was
      > >not true.
      >
      > Lets apply this same argument to science. I claim
      > there's no such
      > thing as atoms...we can observe and measure the
      > effects of atoms but
      > never see atoms themselves (Heisenberg uncertainty
      > principle). I
      > could also say atoms aren't real even if we could
      > observe them
      > because there's no definitive proof that what I can
      > observe is the
      > end-all real. After all, science constantly strives
      > to make a better
      > distinction of what is true which means it's always
      > a model of what
      > is true. Stated another way...there's no way to know
      > if an answer to
      > any question is definitive in the scope (domain) of
      > all possiblity.
      >
      > But back to the flat earth. The flat earth example
      > is a good example
      > of what is truth in the domain of human existance.
      > Truth (what we
      > call a 'fact') is an assertion backed by evidence.
      > You, in the
      > present day, have good evidence that the earth isn't
      > flat (cause I
      > certainly assume you're not guessing, you can show
      > me evidence,
      > right?). But I can also say something I feel equally
      > strong about and
      > have no real evidence for....my cat is the greatest
      > cat on earth.
      >
      > Point is: You only know what you know....there's no
      > distinction
      > between reality and the perception of reality
      > because everything you
      > know is perceived. As you develop the skills of
      > rational thought you
      > develop a different set of distinctions, find
      > different evidence for
      > things, and get a different view of truth.
      >
      > Was the earth flat then? Not to me with my present
      > day evidence. To
      > them in their day?...of course...they didn't know
      > any better (didn't
      > have any better evidence). Do I think it's true
      > that all reality is
      > subjective? Yep! Will it still be subjective if
      > someone shows me
      > otherwise? Nope.
      >
      >
      > >
      > >Thanks for the food for thought.
      > >Yours sincerly
      > >Jack
      > >
      > >
      > >Message: 2
      > > Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 10:52:19 -0500
      > > From: Amber Leigh Griffioen
      > <griffioe@...>
      > >Subject: Re: A Flat Earth
      > >
      > >Jack Darach <jack.darach@...> writes:
      > >
      > >> The earth was never flat even if all the people
      > in the world believed
      > >> it was.They could never have been in a position
      > to act upon their
      > >> belief...
      > >> ...And more generally I'd say the truth of a
      > belief is not dependent on
      > >> collective agreement. They could not act on
      > their belief, and so it
      > > > was not true.
      > >
      > >Again, the difference between objective and
      > subjective/relative
      > >truth. I agree
      > >with Jack that objective truths exists, and a
      > collective agreement does not
      > >necessarily mean that agreement is true.
      >
      > If you say objective truth exists without evidence
      > for it (because
      > evidence is something we know, which makes it
      > subjective) then what's
      > your opinion about the statement 'The easter bunny
      > is real, only
      > humans can perceive it'.
      >
      > My point is that until I have (subjective) evidence
      > I've no reason to
      > believe something exists...it's just a guess.
      >
      > >I would add, however, that sometimes we
      > >can only "know" relative truths. (Jack's pirate
      > had not the means
      > >to figure out
      > >the world was round, so he died a sad,
      > disillusioned seafarer.)
      >
      > Right, we all live and suffer by our distinctions.
      > It's a good
      > example of how choosing to be wrong is the lynchpin
      > of personal
      > transformation. (I know I'm right, but I'm not
      > happy!)
      >
      > >We are, after
      > >all, rather enclosed beings, and as much as we
      > think we can explore, there is
      > >ALWAYS more to discover. We are limited to what we
      > know and what we have the
      > >means to discover, but we would be hard-pressed to
      > say that much of it is
      > >objectively true. Perhaps we only believe it to
      > be...
      > >
      > >This is something I've struggled with a lot.
      > Opinions on
      > >truth/Truth would be of
      > >great interest to me. I also would like to hear
      > what you guys think on
      > >fate/destiny.
      > >
      > >Ciao for now,
      > >
      > >Amber
      > >
      > >* * * * * * * * * * * * *
      > >"I am no bird; and no net ensnares me; I am a free
      > human being with an
      > >independent will, which I now exert to leave you."
      > -Jane Eyre
      > >* * * * * * * * * * * * *
      > >Amber Griffioen
      > >griffioe@...
      > >amber_griffs@...
      > >http://www.geocities.com/amber_griffs
      > >
      > >
      >
      >________________________________________________________________________
      >
      === message truncated ===


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