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Re: [existlist] Egodeath=Species death

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  • judith@qbase.org
    Dear Bill You have made some significant comments and observations - I will have to take some time out to think and reconcile a comprehensive framework to all
    Message 1 of 9 , May 2, 2002
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      Dear Bill

      You have made some significant comments and observations - I will have to
      take some time out to think and reconcile a comprehensive framework to all
      if this.

      Meanwhile, since multi-streaming seems to be the order of all things these
      days, especially this chat group, I would query whether you are positing
      some sort of neo-existentialism, birthing an offshoot ideology or simply
      seeking to cast some random vignettes.

      jml.

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Bill Harris" <valleywestdental@...>
      To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 1:34 AM
      Subject: [existlist] Egodeath=Species death


      > Judith, I think individual ego is derived from survival instinct. It is
      also related to testosterone so there fore males have more of both. Females,
      relying on estrogen, seem to prefer the collective. The feminization of US
      society may be on the downside of the movement. The Bush administration
      seems to take a more aggressive, individualist stance. Soft males and
      socialism are not in style.
      > Philosophically, individualism is a cornerstone of existentialism. That
      is why I are one. It seems feminism has run its sex up against it`s history
      and hormones. I really don`t give a hoot what the woman's movement does
      about it cause I won`t be joining up. Teihard serves up a nice collectivist
      dream world. It is closely related to Eduards happy neuron Idea. Diluting
      individualism will not happen because there are way to many guys like me. If
      the collective won out the species would die as a defenseless and pitiful
      committee. You don`t have to like us but you have to have us to survive.
      Bill----- Original Message -----
      > From: judith@...
      > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 11:50 AM
      > Subject: [existlist] Egodeath
      >
      >
      > Hi James
      >
      > You're right, there are a lot of other names for collective conscious -
      > global conscious, egodeath, noosphere and more... for when I can fit the
      > reading time in.
      >
      > Many thanks, Judith.
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "Jamie C" <jcman@...>
      > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 10:42 PM
      > Subject: Re: [existlist] Larmark & Darwin
      >
      >
      > > Are points 3 and 4 not linked? Doesn't the removal of self consuming
      > thought theoretically bring an opening to what you call the collective
      > concious (has many other names does it not?).
      > http://www.egodeath.com/egodeath.htm
      > >
      > > Arts based portrayl of #4.
      > >
      > > some artwork relating to this concept www.alexgrey.com
      > >
      > > some lryics relating to this concept aswell:
      > >
      > > Black then white are all I see in my infancy.
      > > red and yellow then came to be, reaching out to me.
      > > lets me see.
      > > As below, so above and beyond, I imagine
      > > drawn beyond the lines of reason.
      > > Push the envelope. Watch it bend.
      > >
      > > Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
      > > Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must
      > > Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines.
      > >
      > > Black then white are all I see in my infancy.
      > > red and yellow then came to be, reaching out to me.
      > > lets me see there is so much more
      > > and beckons me to look through to these infinite possibilities.
      > > As below, so above and beyond, I imagine
      > > drawn outside the lines of reason.
      > > Push the envelope. Watch it bend.
      > >
      > > Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
      > > Withering my intuition leaving all these opportunities behind.
      > >
      > > Feed my will to feel this moment urging me to cross the line.
      > > Reaching out to embrace the random.
      > > Reaching out to embrace whatever may come.
      > >
      > > I embrace my desire to
      > > feel the rhythm, to feel connected
      > > enough to step aside and weep like a widow
      > > to feel inspired, to fathom the power,
      > > to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain,
      > > to swing on the spiral
      > > of our divinity and still be a human.
      > >
      > > With my feet upon the ground I lose myself
      > > between the sounds and open wide to suck it in,
      > > I feel it move across my skin.
      > > I'm reaching up and reaching out,
      > > I'm reaching for the random or what ever will bewilder me.
      > > And following our will and wind we may just go where no one's been.
      > > We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's been.
      > > Spiral out. Keep going, going...
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > I have come curiously close to the end, down
      > > Beneath my self-indulgent pitiful hole,
      > > Defeated, I concede and
      > > Move closer
      > > I may find comfort here
      > > I may find peace within the emptiness
      > > How pitiful
      > >
      > > It's calling me...
      > >
      > > And in my darkest moment, fetal and weeping
      > > The moon tells me a secret - my confidant
      > > As full and bright as I am
      > > This light is not my own and
      > > A million light reflections pass over me
      > >
      > > Its source is bright and endless
      > > She resuscitates the hopeless
      > > Without her, we are lifeless satellites drifting
      > >
      > > And as I pull my head out I am without one doubt
      > > Don't wanna be down here feeding my narcissism.
      > > I must crucify the ego before it's far too late
      > > I pray the light lifts me out
      > > Before I pine away.
      > >
      > > So crucify the ego, before it's far too late
      > > To leave behind this place so negative and blind and cynical,
      > > And you will come to find that we are all one mind
      > > Capable of all that's imagined and all conceivable.
      > > Just let the light touch you
      > > And let the words spill through
      > > And let them pass right through
      > > Bringing out our hope and reason ...
      > > before we pine away.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > From: judith@...
      > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      > > Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 1:57 AM
      > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Larmark & Darwin
      > >
      > >
      > > Hi everyone!
      > >
      > > 1. I've made a big spello Lamarck only has one R
      > >
      > > 2. Equality as a construct is not what we are aiming for - as each
      > > individual is really constantly searching out not for what will make
      > him/her
      > > whole, rather what he/she does not already have/know, a symbiotic
      > > experiential expansion - a yearning to live more fully. And as for
      larger
      > > socio-economic inequality, it is an undeniable ulcer on our shared
      sense
      > of
      > > humanity that causes unremitting disturbance to the conscience.
      Therefore
      > it
      > > would seem a sensible thing to target a baseline that does not offend
      our
      > > moral decency (most people don't have any problem eating McDonalds or
      > > feeding it to their kids on occasion, nor with the pubescent, starry
      > eyed.,
      > > milky toothed attendants who whizz around behind the counter, nor the
      ease
      > > and economy of it all - McDonalds in fact projects the simple solution
      we
      > > are hoping might exist for real-life issues of global poverty and
      > widespread
      > > human misery). At this point in time, an acceptable base-line does not
      > > exist.
      > >
      > > 3. Re Lamark v Darwin, I think philosophy has defeated itself into one
      > great
      > > big anti-climax and if not that, then the only conclusion can be for
      each
      > > individual to really enjoy being - to really live without allowing our
      > > mental faculty to consume itself/ourselves
      > >
      > > 4. My new conclusion is that the collective conscious is now
      > simultaneously
      > > converging (into one) and diverging (toward greater inclusiveness).
      > >
      > > Thanks to everyone for helping me arrive at this point.
      > >
      > > jml.
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
      > > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
      > >
      > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
      > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > >
      > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
      http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
      > ADVERTISEMENT
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
      > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
      >
      > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
      > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
      > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
      >
      > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
      > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >
    • Bill Harris
      Judith, I have a separate group entitled Neoex. In it there are vast dispersions cast upon all sorts of primative ideologies. Your application would be
      Message 2 of 9 , May 2, 2002
      • 0 Attachment
        Judith, I have a separate group entitled Neoex. In it there are vast dispersions cast upon all sorts of primative ideologies. Your application would be scrupously considered. Bill
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: judith@...
        To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 11:40 AM
        Subject: Re: [existlist] Egodeath=Species death


        Dear Bill

        You have made some significant comments and observations - I will have to
        take some time out to think and reconcile a comprehensive framework to all
        if this.

        Meanwhile, since multi-streaming seems to be the order of all things these
        days, especially this chat group, I would query whether you are positing
        some sort of neo-existentialism, birthing an offshoot ideology or simply
        seeking to cast some random vignettes.

        jml.

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Bill Harris" <valleywestdental@...>
        To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 1:34 AM
        Subject: [existlist] Egodeath=Species death


        > Judith, I think individual ego is derived from survival instinct. It is
        also related to testosterone so there fore males have more of both. Females,
        relying on estrogen, seem to prefer the collective. The feminization of US
        society may be on the downside of the movement. The Bush administration
        seems to take a more aggressive, individualist stance. Soft males and
        socialism are not in style.
        > Philosophically, individualism is a cornerstone of existentialism. That
        is why I are one. It seems feminism has run its sex up against it`s history
        and hormones. I really don`t give a hoot what the woman's movement does
        about it cause I won`t be joining up. Teihard serves up a nice collectivist
        dream world. It is closely related to Eduards happy neuron Idea. Diluting
        individualism will not happen because there are way to many guys like me. If
        the collective won out the species would die as a defenseless and pitiful
        committee. You don`t have to like us but you have to have us to survive.
        Bill----- Original Message -----
        > From: judith@...
        > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 11:50 AM
        > Subject: [existlist] Egodeath
        >
        >
        > Hi James
        >
        > You're right, there are a lot of other names for collective conscious -
        > global conscious, egodeath, noosphere and more... for when I can fit the
        > reading time in.
        >
        > Many thanks, Judith.
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "Jamie C" <jcman@...>
        > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 10:42 PM
        > Subject: Re: [existlist] Larmark & Darwin
        >
        >
        > > Are points 3 and 4 not linked? Doesn't the removal of self consuming
        > thought theoretically bring an opening to what you call the collective
        > concious (has many other names does it not?).
        > http://www.egodeath.com/egodeath.htm
        > >
        > > Arts based portrayl of #4.
        > >
        > > some artwork relating to this concept www.alexgrey.com
        > >
        > > some lryics relating to this concept aswell:
        > >
        > > Black then white are all I see in my infancy.
        > > red and yellow then came to be, reaching out to me.
        > > lets me see.
        > > As below, so above and beyond, I imagine
        > > drawn beyond the lines of reason.
        > > Push the envelope. Watch it bend.
        > >
        > > Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
        > > Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must
        > > Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines.
        > >
        > > Black then white are all I see in my infancy.
        > > red and yellow then came to be, reaching out to me.
        > > lets me see there is so much more
        > > and beckons me to look through to these infinite possibilities.
        > > As below, so above and beyond, I imagine
        > > drawn outside the lines of reason.
        > > Push the envelope. Watch it bend.
        > >
        > > Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
        > > Withering my intuition leaving all these opportunities behind.
        > >
        > > Feed my will to feel this moment urging me to cross the line.
        > > Reaching out to embrace the random.
        > > Reaching out to embrace whatever may come.
        > >
        > > I embrace my desire to
        > > feel the rhythm, to feel connected
        > > enough to step aside and weep like a widow
        > > to feel inspired, to fathom the power,
        > > to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain,
        > > to swing on the spiral
        > > of our divinity and still be a human.
        > >
        > > With my feet upon the ground I lose myself
        > > between the sounds and open wide to suck it in,
        > > I feel it move across my skin.
        > > I'm reaching up and reaching out,
        > > I'm reaching for the random or what ever will bewilder me.
        > > And following our will and wind we may just go where no one's been.
        > > We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's been.
        > > Spiral out. Keep going, going...
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > I have come curiously close to the end, down
        > > Beneath my self-indulgent pitiful hole,
        > > Defeated, I concede and
        > > Move closer
        > > I may find comfort here
        > > I may find peace within the emptiness
        > > How pitiful
        > >
        > > It's calling me...
        > >
        > > And in my darkest moment, fetal and weeping
        > > The moon tells me a secret - my confidant
        > > As full and bright as I am
        > > This light is not my own and
        > > A million light reflections pass over me
        > >
        > > Its source is bright and endless
        > > She resuscitates the hopeless
        > > Without her, we are lifeless satellites drifting
        > >
        > > And as I pull my head out I am without one doubt
        > > Don't wanna be down here feeding my narcissism.
        > > I must crucify the ego before it's far too late
        > > I pray the light lifts me out
        > > Before I pine away.
        > >
        > > So crucify the ego, before it's far too late
        > > To leave behind this place so negative and blind and cynical,
        > > And you will come to find that we are all one mind
        > > Capable of all that's imagined and all conceivable.
        > > Just let the light touch you
        > > And let the words spill through
        > > And let them pass right through
        > > Bringing out our hope and reason ...
        > > before we pine away.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > From: judith@...
        > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        > > Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 1:57 AM
        > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Larmark & Darwin
        > >
        > >
        > > Hi everyone!
        > >
        > > 1. I've made a big spello Lamarck only has one R
        > >
        > > 2. Equality as a construct is not what we are aiming for - as each
        > > individual is really constantly searching out not for what will make
        > him/her
        > > whole, rather what he/she does not already have/know, a symbiotic
        > > experiential expansion - a yearning to live more fully. And as for
        larger
        > > socio-economic inequality, it is an undeniable ulcer on our shared
        sense
        > of
        > > humanity that causes unremitting disturbance to the conscience.
        Therefore
        > it
        > > would seem a sensible thing to target a baseline that does not offend
        our
        > > moral decency (most people don't have any problem eating McDonalds or
        > > feeding it to their kids on occasion, nor with the pubescent, starry
        > eyed.,
        > > milky toothed attendants who whizz around behind the counter, nor the
        ease
        > > and economy of it all - McDonalds in fact projects the simple solution
        we
        > > are hoping might exist for real-life issues of global poverty and
        > widespread
        > > human misery). At this point in time, an acceptable base-line does not
        > > exist.
        > >
        > > 3. Re Lamark v Darwin, I think philosophy has defeated itself into one
        > great
        > > big anti-climax and if not that, then the only conclusion can be for
        each
        > > individual to really enjoy being - to really live without allowing our
        > > mental faculty to consume itself/ourselves
        > >
        > > 4. My new conclusion is that the collective conscious is now
        > simultaneously
        > > converging (into one) and diverging (toward greater inclusiveness).
        > >
        > > Thanks to everyone for helping me arrive at this point.
        > >
        > > jml.
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
        > > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
        > >
        > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
        > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > >
        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
        > ADVERTISEMENT
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
        > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
        >
        > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
        > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
        > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
        >
        > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
        > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >



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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Eduard Alf
        Bill, the primary responsibility is to the society ... to the collective. The idea of the individual is something that arises when we are young as we develop
        Message 3 of 9 , May 2, 2002
        • 0 Attachment
          Bill,

          the primary responsibility is to the society ... to the collective. The
          idea of the individual is something that arises when we are young as we
          develop our ego. But the process of life is to find a way of submerging our
          ego to the greater good. The trick, however, is that in submerging our ego,
          we are still able to retain it.

          The cult of the individual is a myth. Remember that scene in "Blazing
          Saddles" where the black cowboy/sheriff rides over the horizon into the
          sunset. That is the way that all the old cowboy movies ended. The
          solitary hero going onto to fight more evil. But in this film, the camera
          follows the cowboy/sheriff and we find that he is only riding to his
          limousine.

          The same applies to Existentialism. Although Sartre says that "hell is
          other people", this does not stop him from jumping in bed with every two
          legged female he can find. Sartre is very much a part of the collective.

          captain jack
          -----Original Message-----
          From: Bill Harris [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
          Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 11:34 AM
          To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [existlist] Egodeath=Species death


          Judith, I think individual ego is derived from survival instinct. It is
          also related to testosterone so there fore males have more of both. Females,
          relying on estrogen, seem to prefer the collective. The feminization of US
          society may be on the downside of the movement. The Bush administration
          seems to take a more aggressive, individualist stance. Soft males and
          socialism are not in style.
          Philosophically, individualism is a cornerstone of existentialism. That
          is why I are one. It seems feminism has run its sex up against it`s history
          and hormones. I really don`t give a hoot what the woman's movement does
          about it cause I won`t be joining up. Teihard serves up a nice collectivist
          dream world. It is closely related to Eduards happy neuron Idea. Diluting
          individualism will not happen because there are way to many guys like me. If
          the collective won out the species would die as a defenseless and pitiful
          committee. You don`t have to like us but you have to have us to survive.
          Bill----- Original Message -----
          From: judith@...
          To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 11:50 AM
          Subject: [existlist] Egodeath


          Hi James

          You're right, there are a lot of other names for collective conscious -
          global conscious, egodeath, noosphere and more... for when I can fit the
          reading time in.

          Many thanks, Judith.


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Jamie C" <jcman@...>
          To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 10:42 PM
          Subject: Re: [existlist] Larmark & Darwin


          > Are points 3 and 4 not linked? Doesn't the removal of self consuming
          thought theoretically bring an opening to what you call the collective
          concious (has many other names does it not?).
          http://www.egodeath.com/egodeath.htm
          >
          > Arts based portrayl of #4.
          >
          > some artwork relating to this concept www.alexgrey.com
          >
          > some lryics relating to this concept aswell:
          >
          > Black then white are all I see in my infancy.
          > red and yellow then came to be, reaching out to me.
          > lets me see.
          > As below, so above and beyond, I imagine
          > drawn beyond the lines of reason.
          > Push the envelope. Watch it bend.
          >
          > Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
          > Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must
          > Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines.
          >
          > Black then white are all I see in my infancy.
          > red and yellow then came to be, reaching out to me.
          > lets me see there is so much more
          > and beckons me to look through to these infinite possibilities.
          > As below, so above and beyond, I imagine
          > drawn outside the lines of reason.
          > Push the envelope. Watch it bend.
          >
          > Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
          > Withering my intuition leaving all these opportunities behind.
          >
          > Feed my will to feel this moment urging me to cross the line.
          > Reaching out to embrace the random.
          > Reaching out to embrace whatever may come.
          >
          > I embrace my desire to
          > feel the rhythm, to feel connected
          > enough to step aside and weep like a widow
          > to feel inspired, to fathom the power,
          > to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain,
          > to swing on the spiral
          > of our divinity and still be a human.
          >
          > With my feet upon the ground I lose myself
          > between the sounds and open wide to suck it in,
          > I feel it move across my skin.
          > I'm reaching up and reaching out,
          > I'm reaching for the random or what ever will bewilder me.
          > And following our will and wind we may just go where no one's been.
          > We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's been.
          > Spiral out. Keep going, going...
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > I have come curiously close to the end, down
          > Beneath my self-indulgent pitiful hole,
          > Defeated, I concede and
          > Move closer
          > I may find comfort here
          > I may find peace within the emptiness
          > How pitiful
          >
          > It's calling me...
          >
          > And in my darkest moment, fetal and weeping
          > The moon tells me a secret - my confidant
          > As full and bright as I am
          > This light is not my own and
          > A million light reflections pass over me
          >
          > Its source is bright and endless
          > She resuscitates the hopeless
          > Without her, we are lifeless satellites drifting
          >
          > And as I pull my head out I am without one doubt
          > Don't wanna be down here feeding my narcissism.
          > I must crucify the ego before it's far too late
          > I pray the light lifts me out
          > Before I pine away.
          >
          > So crucify the ego, before it's far too late
          > To leave behind this place so negative and blind and cynical,
          > And you will come to find that we are all one mind
          > Capable of all that's imagined and all conceivable.
          > Just let the light touch you
          > And let the words spill through
          > And let them pass right through
          > Bringing out our hope and reason ...
          > before we pine away.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: judith@...
          > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 1:57 AM
          > Subject: Re: [existlist] Larmark & Darwin
          >
          >
          > Hi everyone!
          >
          > 1. I've made a big spello Lamarck only has one R
          >
          > 2. Equality as a construct is not what we are aiming for - as each
          > individual is really constantly searching out not for what will make
          him/her
          > whole, rather what he/she does not already have/know, a symbiotic
          > experiential expansion - a yearning to live more fully. And as for
          larger
          > socio-economic inequality, it is an undeniable ulcer on our shared
          sense
          of
          > humanity that causes unremitting disturbance to the conscience.
          Therefore
          it
          > would seem a sensible thing to target a baseline that does not offend
          our
          > moral decency (most people don't have any problem eating McDonalds or
          > feeding it to their kids on occasion, nor with the pubescent, starry
          eyed.,
          > milky toothed attendants who whizz around behind the counter, nor the
          ease
          > and economy of it all - McDonalds in fact projects the simple solution
          we
          > are hoping might exist for real-life issues of global poverty and
          widespread
          > human misery). At this point in time, an acceptable base-line does not
          > exist.
          >
          > 3. Re Lamark v Darwin, I think philosophy has defeated itself into one
          great
          > big anti-climax and if not that, then the only conclusion can be for
          each
          > individual to really enjoy being - to really live without allowing our
          > mental faculty to consume itself/ourselves
          >
          > 4. My new conclusion is that the collective conscious is now
          simultaneously
          > converging (into one) and diverging (toward greater inclusiveness).
          >
          > Thanks to everyone for helping me arrive at this point.
          >
          > jml.
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
          > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
          >
          > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
          > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >



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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Bill Harris
          Eduard, the society, like a god, is a myth. The society is a concept for collectivists to pour their unimaginative energy into. Government is real. The FAA is
          Message 4 of 9 , May 2, 2002
          • 0 Attachment
            Eduard, the society, like a god, is a myth. The society is a concept for collectivists to pour their unimaginative energy into. Government is real. The FAA is real. You are real, I am real. The Society is a concept some like to bow to ,I do not owe it a damn thing. To endow a non definable concept with more importance than your individualism is absolutely beyond the scope of existentialism and sanity.
            Trying to understand a collective before you understand your own position in the construct is also madness. Hiding in collectives without a personal identity or philosophy is why human affairs are in such a sorry state. The blind follow the blind and huddle togeather in their stupidity. Up the society, ya, way up. Bill
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Eduard Alf
            To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 2:30 PM
            Subject: RE: [existlist] Egodeath=Species death


            Bill,

            the primary responsibility is to the society ... to the collective. The
            idea of the individual is something that arises when we are young as we
            develop our ego. But the process of life is to find a way of submerging our
            ego to the greater good. The trick, however, is that in submerging our ego,
            we are still able to retain it.

            The cult of the individual is a myth. Remember that scene in "Blazing
            Saddles" where the black cowboy/sheriff rides over the horizon into the
            sunset. That is the way that all the old cowboy movies ended. The
            solitary hero going onto to fight more evil. But in this film, the camera
            follows the cowboy/sheriff and we find that he is only riding to his
            limousine.

            The same applies to Existentialism. Although Sartre says that "hell is
            other people", this does not stop him from jumping in bed with every two
            legged female he can find. Sartre is very much a part of the collective.

            captain jack
            -----Original Message-----
            From: Bill Harris [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
            Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 11:34 AM
            To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [existlist] Egodeath=Species death


            Judith, I think individual ego is derived from survival instinct. It is
            also related to testosterone so there fore males have more of both. Females,
            relying on estrogen, seem to prefer the collective. The feminization of US
            society may be on the downside of the movement. The Bush administration
            seems to take a more aggressive, individualist stance. Soft males and
            socialism are not in style.
            Philosophically, individualism is a cornerstone of existentialism. That
            is why I are one. It seems feminism has run its sex up against it`s history
            and hormones. I really don`t give a hoot what the woman's movement does
            about it cause I won`t be joining up. Teihard serves up a nice collectivist
            dream world. It is closely related to Eduards happy neuron Idea. Diluting
            individualism will not happen because there are way to many guys like me. If
            the collective won out the species would die as a defenseless and pitiful
            committee. You don`t have to like us but you have to have us to survive.
            Bill----- Original Message -----
            From: judith@...
            To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 11:50 AM
            Subject: [existlist] Egodeath


            Hi James

            You're right, there are a lot of other names for collective conscious -
            global conscious, egodeath, noosphere and more... for when I can fit the
            reading time in.

            Many thanks, Judith.


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Jamie C" <jcman@...>
            To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 10:42 PM
            Subject: Re: [existlist] Larmark & Darwin


            > Are points 3 and 4 not linked? Doesn't the removal of self consuming
            thought theoretically bring an opening to what you call the collective
            concious (has many other names does it not?).
            http://www.egodeath.com/egodeath.htm
            >
            > Arts based portrayl of #4.
            >
            > some artwork relating to this concept www.alexgrey.com
            >
            > some lryics relating to this concept aswell:
            >
            > Black then white are all I see in my infancy.
            > red and yellow then came to be, reaching out to me.
            > lets me see.
            > As below, so above and beyond, I imagine
            > drawn beyond the lines of reason.
            > Push the envelope. Watch it bend.
            >
            > Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
            > Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must
            > Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines.
            >
            > Black then white are all I see in my infancy.
            > red and yellow then came to be, reaching out to me.
            > lets me see there is so much more
            > and beckons me to look through to these infinite possibilities.
            > As below, so above and beyond, I imagine
            > drawn outside the lines of reason.
            > Push the envelope. Watch it bend.
            >
            > Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
            > Withering my intuition leaving all these opportunities behind.
            >
            > Feed my will to feel this moment urging me to cross the line.
            > Reaching out to embrace the random.
            > Reaching out to embrace whatever may come.
            >
            > I embrace my desire to
            > feel the rhythm, to feel connected
            > enough to step aside and weep like a widow
            > to feel inspired, to fathom the power,
            > to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain,
            > to swing on the spiral
            > of our divinity and still be a human.
            >
            > With my feet upon the ground I lose myself
            > between the sounds and open wide to suck it in,
            > I feel it move across my skin.
            > I'm reaching up and reaching out,
            > I'm reaching for the random or what ever will bewilder me.
            > And following our will and wind we may just go where no one's been.
            > We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's been.
            > Spiral out. Keep going, going...
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > I have come curiously close to the end, down
            > Beneath my self-indulgent pitiful hole,
            > Defeated, I concede and
            > Move closer
            > I may find comfort here
            > I may find peace within the emptiness
            > How pitiful
            >
            > It's calling me...
            >
            > And in my darkest moment, fetal and weeping
            > The moon tells me a secret - my confidant
            > As full and bright as I am
            > This light is not my own and
            > A million light reflections pass over me
            >
            > Its source is bright and endless
            > She resuscitates the hopeless
            > Without her, we are lifeless satellites drifting
            >
            > And as I pull my head out I am without one doubt
            > Don't wanna be down here feeding my narcissism.
            > I must crucify the ego before it's far too late
            > I pray the light lifts me out
            > Before I pine away.
            >
            > So crucify the ego, before it's far too late
            > To leave behind this place so negative and blind and cynical,
            > And you will come to find that we are all one mind
            > Capable of all that's imagined and all conceivable.
            > Just let the light touch you
            > And let the words spill through
            > And let them pass right through
            > Bringing out our hope and reason ...
            > before we pine away.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: judith@...
            > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 1:57 AM
            > Subject: Re: [existlist] Larmark & Darwin
            >
            >
            > Hi everyone!
            >
            > 1. I've made a big spello Lamarck only has one R
            >
            > 2. Equality as a construct is not what we are aiming for - as each
            > individual is really constantly searching out not for what will make
            him/her
            > whole, rather what he/she does not already have/know, a symbiotic
            > experiential expansion - a yearning to live more fully. And as for
            larger
            > socio-economic inequality, it is an undeniable ulcer on our shared
            sense
            of
            > humanity that causes unremitting disturbance to the conscience.
            Therefore
            it
            > would seem a sensible thing to target a baseline that does not offend
            our
            > moral decency (most people don't have any problem eating McDonalds or
            > feeding it to their kids on occasion, nor with the pubescent, starry
            eyed.,
            > milky toothed attendants who whizz around behind the counter, nor the
            ease
            > and economy of it all - McDonalds in fact projects the simple solution
            we
            > are hoping might exist for real-life issues of global poverty and
            widespread
            > human misery). At this point in time, an acceptable base-line does not
            > exist.
            >
            > 3. Re Lamark v Darwin, I think philosophy has defeated itself into one
            great
            > big anti-climax and if not that, then the only conclusion can be for
            each
            > individual to really enjoy being - to really live without allowing our
            > mental faculty to consume itself/ourselves
            >
            > 4. My new conclusion is that the collective conscious is now
            simultaneously
            > converging (into one) and diverging (toward greater inclusiveness).
            >
            > Thanks to everyone for helping me arrive at this point.
            >
            > jml.
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
            > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
            >
            > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
            > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >



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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Eduard Alf
            Bill, I did not say that one should lose their individual personality .... I said that the trick is to retain it. But the bottom line is that the collective
            Message 5 of 9 , May 2, 2002
            • 0 Attachment
              Bill,

              I did not say that one should lose their individual personality .... I said
              that the trick is to retain it. But the bottom line is that the collective
              is more important than the individual. You can consult NOOism to know the
              truth of that statement [wait a day, however, so that I have time to get it
              in].

              No matter how you cut it, the health of a country is dependent upon the
              health of the society. I am not suggesting that, at this time, the society
              is healthy, but it does not help things to consider it to be a myth.

              captain jack

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Bill Harris [mailto:valleywestdental@...]
              Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 4:58 PM
              To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [existlist] Egodeath=Species death


              Eduard, the society, like a god, is a myth. The society is a concept for
              collectivists to pour their unimaginative energy into. Government is real.
              The FAA is real. You are real, I am real. The Society is a concept some like
              to bow to ,I do not owe it a damn thing. To endow a non definable concept
              with more importance than your individualism is absolutely beyond the scope
              of existentialism and sanity.
              Trying to understand a collective before you understand your own position
              in the construct is also madness. Hiding in collectives without a personal
              identity or philosophy is why human affairs are in such a sorry state. The
              blind follow the blind and huddle togeather in their stupidity. Up the
              society, ya, way up. Bill


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • judith@qbase.org
              Dear Bill My greatest existential trait is trying to do too much ... so in addition to trying to complete all the usual tasks of my daily life, I am going to
              Message 6 of 9 , May 2, 2002
              • 0 Attachment
                Dear Bill

                My greatest existential trait is trying to do too much ... so in addition to
                trying to complete all the usual tasks of my daily life, I am going to
                dedicate some time to developing a framework that may be of some use.

                Coming from a more "scientific" perspective, to the satisfaction of my mind,
                I think I have schematically (mathematically?) resolved about 3/4 of the
                gender issues you have cast upon existentialism - admittedly I have not come
                across feminism v existentialism debate before.

                Preliminarily, my thoughts would tend to superordinate existentialism's
                relevance beyond my previous conceptualisations. I will be seeking to
                address the issues from a three (3) tier framework as follows:

                (a) Fundamental Germinal Existentialism
                (b) Socio-Organic Existentialism
                (c) Individual-Experiential Existentialsim

                [ Is "germinal" a word of my own invention? I haven't found it in the
                dictionary, however I propose it to mean the opposite of terminal ].

                You should expect that the result will be more pragmatic than
                complex-theoretical. Having said that, the 1/4 that I am still trying to
                resolve is an appropriate sequencing of (a), (b), and (c) along a
                continuum - whether is it in fact (a), (b), (c) or (a), (c), (b), or (c),
                (a), (b) or another variant.

                When done, I think my model will help to pull together biology, chemistry,
                physics and the cosmic and thereby demystfy and help bring harmony to keen
                minds. To make the philosophy more accessible, is to deconstruct those
                systemic enculturation processes that may currently be seen to impede
                effective knowledge transmission.

                Just call me workaholic.

                I'll write again soon.

                Regards, Judith.





                ----- Original Message -----
                From: <judith@...>
                To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 2:40 AM
                Subject: Re: [existlist] Egodeath=Species death


                > Dear Bill
                >
                > You have made some significant comments and observations - I will have to
                > take some time out to think and reconcile a comprehensive framework to all
                > if this.
                >
                > Meanwhile, since multi-streaming seems to be the order of all things these
                > days, especially this chat group, I would query whether you are positing
                > some sort of neo-existentialism, birthing an offshoot ideology or simply
                > seeking to cast some random vignettes.
                >
                > jml.
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "Bill Harris" <valleywestdental@...>
                > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 1:34 AM
                > Subject: [existlist] Egodeath=Species death
                >
                >
                > > Judith, I think individual ego is derived from survival instinct. It is
                > also related to testosterone so there fore males have more of both.
                Females,
                > relying on estrogen, seem to prefer the collective. The feminization of US
                > society may be on the downside of the movement. The Bush administration
                > seems to take a more aggressive, individualist stance. Soft males and
                > socialism are not in style.
                > > Philosophically, individualism is a cornerstone of existentialism. That
                > is why I are one. It seems feminism has run its sex up against it`s
                history
                > and hormones. I really don`t give a hoot what the woman's movement does
                > about it cause I won`t be joining up. Teihard serves up a nice
                collectivist
                > dream world. It is closely related to Eduards happy neuron Idea. Diluting
                > individualism will not happen because there are way to many guys like me.
                If
                > the collective won out the species would die as a defenseless and pitiful
                > committee. You don`t have to like us but you have to have us to survive.
                > Bill----- Original Message -----
                > > From: judith@...
                > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                > > Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 11:50 AM
                > > Subject: [existlist] Egodeath
                > >
                > >
                > > Hi James
                > >
                > > You're right, there are a lot of other names for collective
                conscious -
                > > global conscious, egodeath, noosphere and more... for when I can fit
                the
                > > reading time in.
                > >
                > > Many thanks, Judith.
                > >
                > >
                > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > From: "Jamie C" <jcman@...>
                > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                > > Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 10:42 PM
                > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Larmark & Darwin
                > >
                > >
                > > > Are points 3 and 4 not linked? Doesn't the removal of self consuming
                > > thought theoretically bring an opening to what you call the collective
                > > concious (has many other names does it not?).
                > > http://www.egodeath.com/egodeath.htm
                > > >
                > > > Arts based portrayl of #4.
                > > >
                > > > some artwork relating to this concept www.alexgrey.com
                > > >
                > > > some lryics relating to this concept aswell:
                > > >
                > > > Black then white are all I see in my infancy.
                > > > red and yellow then came to be, reaching out to me.
                > > > lets me see.
                > > > As below, so above and beyond, I imagine
                > > > drawn beyond the lines of reason.
                > > > Push the envelope. Watch it bend.
                > > >
                > > > Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
                > > > Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must
                > > > Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines.
                > > >
                > > > Black then white are all I see in my infancy.
                > > > red and yellow then came to be, reaching out to me.
                > > > lets me see there is so much more
                > > > and beckons me to look through to these infinite possibilities.
                > > > As below, so above and beyond, I imagine
                > > > drawn outside the lines of reason.
                > > > Push the envelope. Watch it bend.
                > > >
                > > > Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
                > > > Withering my intuition leaving all these opportunities behind.
                > > >
                > > > Feed my will to feel this moment urging me to cross the line.
                > > > Reaching out to embrace the random.
                > > > Reaching out to embrace whatever may come.
                > > >
                > > > I embrace my desire to
                > > > feel the rhythm, to feel connected
                > > > enough to step aside and weep like a widow
                > > > to feel inspired, to fathom the power,
                > > > to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain,
                > > > to swing on the spiral
                > > > of our divinity and still be a human.
                > > >
                > > > With my feet upon the ground I lose myself
                > > > between the sounds and open wide to suck it in,
                > > > I feel it move across my skin.
                > > > I'm reaching up and reaching out,
                > > > I'm reaching for the random or what ever will bewilder me.
                > > > And following our will and wind we may just go where no one's been.
                > > > We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's
                been.
                > > > Spiral out. Keep going, going...
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > I have come curiously close to the end, down
                > > > Beneath my self-indulgent pitiful hole,
                > > > Defeated, I concede and
                > > > Move closer
                > > > I may find comfort here
                > > > I may find peace within the emptiness
                > > > How pitiful
                > > >
                > > > It's calling me...
                > > >
                > > > And in my darkest moment, fetal and weeping
                > > > The moon tells me a secret - my confidant
                > > > As full and bright as I am
                > > > This light is not my own and
                > > > A million light reflections pass over me
                > > >
                > > > Its source is bright and endless
                > > > She resuscitates the hopeless
                > > > Without her, we are lifeless satellites drifting
                > > >
                > > > And as I pull my head out I am without one doubt
                > > > Don't wanna be down here feeding my narcissism.
                > > > I must crucify the ego before it's far too late
                > > > I pray the light lifts me out
                > > > Before I pine away.
                > > >
                > > > So crucify the ego, before it's far too late
                > > > To leave behind this place so negative and blind and cynical,
                > > > And you will come to find that we are all one mind
                > > > Capable of all that's imagined and all conceivable.
                > > > Just let the light touch you
                > > > And let the words spill through
                > > > And let them pass right through
                > > > Bringing out our hope and reason ...
                > > > before we pine away.
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > > From: judith@...
                > > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 1:57 AM
                > > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Larmark & Darwin
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Hi everyone!
                > > >
                > > > 1. I've made a big spello Lamarck only has one R
                > > >
                > > > 2. Equality as a construct is not what we are aiming for - as each
                > > > individual is really constantly searching out not for what will make
                > > him/her
                > > > whole, rather what he/she does not already have/know, a symbiotic
                > > > experiential expansion - a yearning to live more fully. And as for
                > larger
                > > > socio-economic inequality, it is an undeniable ulcer on our shared
                > sense
                > > of
                > > > humanity that causes unremitting disturbance to the conscience.
                > Therefore
                > > it
                > > > would seem a sensible thing to target a baseline that does not
                offend
                > our
                > > > moral decency (most people don't have any problem eating McDonalds
                or
                > > > feeding it to their kids on occasion, nor with the pubescent, starry
                > > eyed.,
                > > > milky toothed attendants who whizz around behind the counter, nor
                the
                > ease
                > > > and economy of it all - McDonalds in fact projects the simple
                solution
                > we
                > > > are hoping might exist for real-life issues of global poverty and
                > > widespread
                > > > human misery). At this point in time, an acceptable base-line does
                not
                > > > exist.
                > > >
                > > > 3. Re Lamark v Darwin, I think philosophy has defeated itself into
                one
                > > great
                > > > big anti-climax and if not that, then the only conclusion can be for
                > each
                > > > individual to really enjoy being - to really live without allowing
                our
                > > > mental faculty to consume itself/ourselves
                > > >
                > > > 4. My new conclusion is that the collective conscious is now
                > > simultaneously
                > > > converging (into one) and diverging (toward greater inclusiveness).
                > > >
                > > > Thanks to everyone for helping me arrive at this point.
                > > >
                > > > jml.
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                > > > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
                > > >
                > > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
                > > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > > >
                > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
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              • George Walton
                Judith, Wow, and I thought I was the only one who knew everything! wink, wink Biggie ... === message truncated ===
                Message 7 of 9 , May 3, 2002
                • 0 Attachment
                  Judith,

                  Wow, and I thought I was the only one who knew
                  everything!

                  wink, wink

                  Biggie
                  --- judith@... wrote:
                  > Dear Bill
                  >
                  > My greatest existential trait is trying to do too
                  > much ... so in addition to
                  > trying to complete all the usual tasks of my daily
                  > life, I am going to
                  > dedicate some time to developing a framework that
                  > may be of some use.
                  >
                  > Coming from a more "scientific" perspective, to the
                  > satisfaction of my mind,
                  > I think I have schematically (mathematically?)
                  > resolved about 3/4 of the
                  > gender issues you have cast upon existentialism -
                  > admittedly I have not come
                  > across feminism v existentialism debate before.
                  >
                  > Preliminarily, my thoughts would tend to
                  > superordinate existentialism's
                  > relevance beyond my previous conceptualisations. I
                  > will be seeking to
                  > address the issues from a three (3) tier framework
                  > as follows:
                  >
                  > (a) Fundamental Germinal Existentialism
                  > (b) Socio-Organic Existentialism
                  > (c) Individual-Experiential Existentialsim
                  >
                  > [ Is "germinal" a word of my own invention? I
                  > haven't found it in the
                  > dictionary, however I propose it to mean the
                  > opposite of terminal ].
                  >
                  > You should expect that the result will be more
                  > pragmatic than
                  > complex-theoretical. Having said that, the 1/4 that
                  > I am still trying to
                  > resolve is an appropriate sequencing of (a), (b),
                  > and (c) along a
                  > continuum - whether is it in fact (a), (b), (c) or
                  > (a), (c), (b), or (c),
                  > (a), (b) or another variant.
                  >
                  > When done, I think my model will help to pull
                  > together biology, chemistry,
                  > physics and the cosmic and thereby demystfy and help
                  > bring harmony to keen
                  > minds. To make the philosophy more accessible, is to
                  > deconstruct those
                  > systemic enculturation processes that may currently
                  > be seen to impede
                  > effective knowledge transmission.
                  >
                  > Just call me workaholic.
                  >
                  > I'll write again soon.
                  >
                  > Regards, Judith.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: <judith@...>
                  > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 2:40 AM
                  > Subject: Re: [existlist] Egodeath=Species death
                  >
                  >
                  > > Dear Bill
                  > >
                  > > You have made some significant comments and
                  > observations - I will have to
                  > > take some time out to think and reconcile a
                  > comprehensive framework to all
                  > > if this.
                  > >
                  > > Meanwhile, since multi-streaming seems to be the
                  > order of all things these
                  > > days, especially this chat group, I would query
                  > whether you are positing
                  > > some sort of neo-existentialism, birthing an
                  > offshoot ideology or simply
                  > > seeking to cast some random vignettes.
                  > >
                  > > jml.
                  > >
                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > From: "Bill Harris" <valleywestdental@...>
                  > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                  > > Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 1:34 AM
                  > > Subject: [existlist] Egodeath=Species death
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > > Judith, I think individual ego is derived from
                  > survival instinct. It is
                  > > also related to testosterone so there fore males
                  > have more of both.
                  > Females,
                  > > relying on estrogen, seem to prefer the
                  > collective. The feminization of US
                  > > society may be on the downside of the movement.
                  > The Bush administration
                  > > seems to take a more aggressive, individualist
                  > stance. Soft males and
                  > > socialism are not in style.
                  > > > Philosophically, individualism is a cornerstone
                  > of existentialism. That
                  > > is why I are one. It seems feminism has run its
                  > sex up against it`s
                  > history
                  > > and hormones. I really don`t give a hoot what the
                  > woman's movement does
                  > > about it cause I won`t be joining up. Teihard
                  > serves up a nice
                  > collectivist
                  > > dream world. It is closely related to Eduards
                  > happy neuron Idea. Diluting
                  > > individualism will not happen because there are
                  > way to many guys like me.
                  > If
                  > > the collective won out the species would die as a
                  > defenseless and pitiful
                  > > committee. You don`t have to like us but you have
                  > to have us to survive.
                  > > Bill----- Original Message -----
                  > > > From: judith@...
                  > > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 11:50 AM
                  > > > Subject: [existlist] Egodeath
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Hi James
                  > > >
                  > > > You're right, there are a lot of other names
                  > for collective
                  > conscious -
                  > > > global conscious, egodeath, noosphere and
                  > more... for when I can fit
                  > the
                  > > > reading time in.
                  > > >
                  > > > Many thanks, Judith.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > > From: "Jamie C" <jcman@...>
                  > > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                  > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 10:42 PM
                  > > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Larmark & Darwin
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > > Are points 3 and 4 not linked? Doesn't the
                  > removal of self consuming
                  > > > thought theoretically bring an opening to what
                  > you call the collective
                  > > > concious (has many other names does it not?).
                  > > > http://www.egodeath.com/egodeath.htm
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Arts based portrayl of #4.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > some artwork relating to this concept
                  > www.alexgrey.com
                  > > > >
                  > > > > some lryics relating to this concept aswell:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Black then white are all I see in my
                  > infancy.
                  > > > > red and yellow then came to be, reaching out
                  > to me.
                  > > > > lets me see.
                  > > > > As below, so above and beyond, I imagine
                  > > > > drawn beyond the lines of reason.
                  > > > > Push the envelope. Watch it bend.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Over thinking, over analyzing separates the
                  > body from the mind.
                  > > > > Withering my intuition, missing
                  > opportunities and I must
                  > > > > Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way
                  > outside the lines.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Black then white are all I see in my
                  > infancy.
                  > > > > red and yellow then came to be, reaching out
                  > to me.
                  > > > > lets me see there is so much more
                  > > > > and beckons me to look through to these
                  > infinite possibilities.
                  > > > > As below, so above and beyond, I imagine
                  > > > > drawn outside the lines of reason.
                  > > > > Push the envelope. Watch it bend.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Over thinking, over analyzing separates the
                  > body from the mind.
                  > > > > Withering my intuition leaving all these
                  > opportunities behind.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Feed my will to feel this moment urging me
                  > to cross the line.
                  >
                  === message truncated ===


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                • Bill Harris
                  Judith, Far out and good luck. Bill ... From: judith@qbase.org To: existlist@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 10:12 PM Subject: Re: [existlist]
                  Message 8 of 9 , May 7, 2002
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Judith, Far out and good luck. Bill
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: judith@...
                    To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 10:12 PM
                    Subject: Re: [existlist] Egodeath=Species death


                    Dear Bill

                    My greatest existential trait is trying to do too much ... so in addition to
                    trying to complete all the usual tasks of my daily life, I am going to
                    dedicate some time to developing a framework that may be of some use.

                    Coming from a more "scientific" perspective, to the satisfaction of my mind,
                    I think I have schematically (mathematically?) resolved about 3/4 of the
                    gender issues you have cast upon existentialism - admittedly I have not come
                    across feminism v existentialism debate before.

                    Preliminarily, my thoughts would tend to superordinate existentialism's
                    relevance beyond my previous conceptualisations. I will be seeking to
                    address the issues from a three (3) tier framework as follows:

                    (a) Fundamental Germinal Existentialism
                    (b) Socio-Organic Existentialism
                    (c) Individual-Experiential Existentialsim

                    [ Is "germinal" a word of my own invention? I haven't found it in the
                    dictionary, however I propose it to mean the opposite of terminal ].

                    You should expect that the result will be more pragmatic than
                    complex-theoretical. Having said that, the 1/4 that I am still trying to
                    resolve is an appropriate sequencing of (a), (b), and (c) along a
                    continuum - whether is it in fact (a), (b), (c) or (a), (c), (b), or (c),
                    (a), (b) or another variant.

                    When done, I think my model will help to pull together biology, chemistry,
                    physics and the cosmic and thereby demystfy and help bring harmony to keen
                    minds. To make the philosophy more accessible, is to deconstruct those
                    systemic enculturation processes that may currently be seen to impede
                    effective knowledge transmission.

                    Just call me workaholic.

                    I'll write again soon.

                    Regards, Judith.





                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: <judith@...>
                    To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 2:40 AM
                    Subject: Re: [existlist] Egodeath=Species death


                    > Dear Bill
                    >
                    > You have made some significant comments and observations - I will have to
                    > take some time out to think and reconcile a comprehensive framework to all
                    > if this.
                    >
                    > Meanwhile, since multi-streaming seems to be the order of all things these
                    > days, especially this chat group, I would query whether you are positing
                    > some sort of neo-existentialism, birthing an offshoot ideology or simply
                    > seeking to cast some random vignettes.
                    >
                    > jml.
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: "Bill Harris" <valleywestdental@...>
                    > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 1:34 AM
                    > Subject: [existlist] Egodeath=Species death
                    >
                    >
                    > > Judith, I think individual ego is derived from survival instinct. It is
                    > also related to testosterone so there fore males have more of both.
                    Females,
                    > relying on estrogen, seem to prefer the collective. The feminization of US
                    > society may be on the downside of the movement. The Bush administration
                    > seems to take a more aggressive, individualist stance. Soft males and
                    > socialism are not in style.
                    > > Philosophically, individualism is a cornerstone of existentialism. That
                    > is why I are one. It seems feminism has run its sex up against it`s
                    history
                    > and hormones. I really don`t give a hoot what the woman's movement does
                    > about it cause I won`t be joining up. Teihard serves up a nice
                    collectivist
                    > dream world. It is closely related to Eduards happy neuron Idea. Diluting
                    > individualism will not happen because there are way to many guys like me.
                    If
                    > the collective won out the species would die as a defenseless and pitiful
                    > committee. You don`t have to like us but you have to have us to survive.
                    > Bill----- Original Message -----
                    > > From: judith@...
                    > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                    > > Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 11:50 AM
                    > > Subject: [existlist] Egodeath
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Hi James
                    > >
                    > > You're right, there are a lot of other names for collective
                    conscious -
                    > > global conscious, egodeath, noosphere and more... for when I can fit
                    the
                    > > reading time in.
                    > >
                    > > Many thanks, Judith.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > From: "Jamie C" <jcman@...>
                    > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                    > > Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 10:42 PM
                    > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Larmark & Darwin
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > > Are points 3 and 4 not linked? Doesn't the removal of self consuming
                    > > thought theoretically bring an opening to what you call the collective
                    > > concious (has many other names does it not?).
                    > > http://www.egodeath.com/egodeath.htm
                    > > >
                    > > > Arts based portrayl of #4.
                    > > >
                    > > > some artwork relating to this concept www.alexgrey.com
                    > > >
                    > > > some lryics relating to this concept aswell:
                    > > >
                    > > > Black then white are all I see in my infancy.
                    > > > red and yellow then came to be, reaching out to me.
                    > > > lets me see.
                    > > > As below, so above and beyond, I imagine
                    > > > drawn beyond the lines of reason.
                    > > > Push the envelope. Watch it bend.
                    > > >
                    > > > Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
                    > > > Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must
                    > > > Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines.
                    > > >
                    > > > Black then white are all I see in my infancy.
                    > > > red and yellow then came to be, reaching out to me.
                    > > > lets me see there is so much more
                    > > > and beckons me to look through to these infinite possibilities.
                    > > > As below, so above and beyond, I imagine
                    > > > drawn outside the lines of reason.
                    > > > Push the envelope. Watch it bend.
                    > > >
                    > > > Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
                    > > > Withering my intuition leaving all these opportunities behind.
                    > > >
                    > > > Feed my will to feel this moment urging me to cross the line.
                    > > > Reaching out to embrace the random.
                    > > > Reaching out to embrace whatever may come.
                    > > >
                    > > > I embrace my desire to
                    > > > feel the rhythm, to feel connected
                    > > > enough to step aside and weep like a widow
                    > > > to feel inspired, to fathom the power,
                    > > > to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain,
                    > > > to swing on the spiral
                    > > > of our divinity and still be a human.
                    > > >
                    > > > With my feet upon the ground I lose myself
                    > > > between the sounds and open wide to suck it in,
                    > > > I feel it move across my skin.
                    > > > I'm reaching up and reaching out,
                    > > > I'm reaching for the random or what ever will bewilder me.
                    > > > And following our will and wind we may just go where no one's been.
                    > > > We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's
                    been.
                    > > > Spiral out. Keep going, going...
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > I have come curiously close to the end, down
                    > > > Beneath my self-indulgent pitiful hole,
                    > > > Defeated, I concede and
                    > > > Move closer
                    > > > I may find comfort here
                    > > > I may find peace within the emptiness
                    > > > How pitiful
                    > > >
                    > > > It's calling me...
                    > > >
                    > > > And in my darkest moment, fetal and weeping
                    > > > The moon tells me a secret - my confidant
                    > > > As full and bright as I am
                    > > > This light is not my own and
                    > > > A million light reflections pass over me
                    > > >
                    > > > Its source is bright and endless
                    > > > She resuscitates the hopeless
                    > > > Without her, we are lifeless satellites drifting
                    > > >
                    > > > And as I pull my head out I am without one doubt
                    > > > Don't wanna be down here feeding my narcissism.
                    > > > I must crucify the ego before it's far too late
                    > > > I pray the light lifts me out
                    > > > Before I pine away.
                    > > >
                    > > > So crucify the ego, before it's far too late
                    > > > To leave behind this place so negative and blind and cynical,
                    > > > And you will come to find that we are all one mind
                    > > > Capable of all that's imagined and all conceivable.
                    > > > Just let the light touch you
                    > > > And let the words spill through
                    > > > And let them pass right through
                    > > > Bringing out our hope and reason ...
                    > > > before we pine away.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > > From: judith@...
                    > > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 1:57 AM
                    > > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Larmark & Darwin
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Hi everyone!
                    > > >
                    > > > 1. I've made a big spello Lamarck only has one R
                    > > >
                    > > > 2. Equality as a construct is not what we are aiming for - as each
                    > > > individual is really constantly searching out not for what will make
                    > > him/her
                    > > > whole, rather what he/she does not already have/know, a symbiotic
                    > > > experiential expansion - a yearning to live more fully. And as for
                    > larger
                    > > > socio-economic inequality, it is an undeniable ulcer on our shared
                    > sense
                    > > of
                    > > > humanity that causes unremitting disturbance to the conscience.
                    > Therefore
                    > > it
                    > > > would seem a sensible thing to target a baseline that does not
                    offend
                    > our
                    > > > moral decency (most people don't have any problem eating McDonalds
                    or
                    > > > feeding it to their kids on occasion, nor with the pubescent, starry
                    > > eyed.,
                    > > > milky toothed attendants who whizz around behind the counter, nor
                    the
                    > ease
                    > > > and economy of it all - McDonalds in fact projects the simple
                    solution
                    > we
                    > > > are hoping might exist for real-life issues of global poverty and
                    > > widespread
                    > > > human misery). At this point in time, an acceptable base-line does
                    not
                    > > > exist.
                    > > >
                    > > > 3. Re Lamark v Darwin, I think philosophy has defeated itself into
                    one
                    > > great
                    > > > big anti-climax and if not that, then the only conclusion can be for
                    > each
                    > > > individual to really enjoy being - to really live without allowing
                    our
                    > > > mental faculty to consume itself/ourselves
                    > > >
                    > > > 4. My new conclusion is that the collective conscious is now
                    > > simultaneously
                    > > > converging (into one) and diverging (toward greater inclusiveness).
                    > > >
                    > > > Thanks to everyone for helping me arrive at this point.
                    > > >
                    > > > jml.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
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