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Fwd: Re: Re: [WisdomForum] Re: Fw: [Fateha] Re: That Quote

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  • james tan
    From: Christopher Bobo Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com To: faris osman CC: Wisdom Forum
    Message 1 of 1 , May 1, 2002
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      From: "Christopher Bobo" <cbobo@...>
      Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
      To: "faris osman" <frovpt@...>
      CC: "Wisdom Forum" <WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com>
      Subject: Re: Re: [WisdomForum] Re: Fw: [Fateha] Re: That Quote
      Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 21:25:26 -0700


      Dear Faris:

      You ask again:
      >>My question is valid because it goes to determine the legitimacy of the
      partition of Palestine which goes to the legitimacy of Israel's description
      of its killings and maimings of Palestinians as self-defense. The point is -
      if one cannot justified the creation of Israel, then one has to admit that
      Israeli aggressions are against a people who is waging a legitimate
      struggle.

      Did I speak of tribalism ? Non, I speak of facts in order to prove that the
      partition of Palestine is not legitimate.

      Please reread my question again and try to respond.<<

      I really don't like the way you phrase your question as it tends to beg the
      question. In some ways, you have the persistence of an addicted gambler at
      the roulette table demanding to know from those who would stop him from
      gambling whether it is legitimate for him to bet all his money on the next
      spin of the wheel who all the time complains that the casino has taken
      almost all of his money. Yes, you are free to gamble your last penny, it is
      your right. But when you've lost everything you owned, it really does not
      make sense to complain that the casino killed and maimed your life savings.

      Vattel first suggested in the Law of Nations that it is irrelevant to ask of
      two warring parties which one had the just cause, because every party
      believes its own cause to be just and neither party can be shaken from this
      conviction. Indeed, both parties will have plausible and often reasonable
      arguments for the justice of their cause. Vattel suggested that "Thus the
      rights founded on the state of war, the lawfulness of its effects, the
      validity of acquisition made by arms, do not, externally and between
      mankind, depend on the justice of the cause, but on the legality of the
      means in themselves." Under this analysis, he who conducts his war by legal
      means is in the right and he who conducts his war by illegal means is in the
      wrong. "All damage done to the enemy unnecessarily," Vattel wrote, "every
      act of hostility which does not tend to procure victory and bring the war to
      a conclusion, is a licentiousness condemned by the law of nature." Thus,
      according to Vattel, the laws of war applied to both aggressor and
      aggrieved, it being irrelevant whose cause was just and whose cause was
      unjust, as if such a thing could be easily and clearly be determined.
      Therefore, there are established a set of uniform military rules of war that
      leads to most wars being settled by compromise. "A treaty of peace," Vattel
      said, "can be no more than a compromise."

      Yours,
      Chris

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: faris osman
      Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 3:44 AM
      To: Christopher Bobo
      Cc: Sayf Uddeen Fariis @ Terence Kenneth John Nunis; James Tan; Wisdom Forum
      Subject: Re: Re: [WisdomForum] Re: Fw: [Fateha] Re: That Quote

      Dear Chris


      You wrote

      Dear Faris:
      You ask:
      >>Do you not think that Arabs who have lived in Palestine for over one
      thousand years have more rights to that land than Jews who could only
      claimed religious and historical links ? Do you think it is fair that the
      Arabs who have established themselves as a community be uprooted just
      because Jews wanted it back, a land which they had not controlled for about
      two thousand years ?

      Come on Chris...be sensible. <<

      You sound like Jean-Marie Le Pen railing against foreigners as a threat to
      France. Humanity is trying to move beyond the kind of tribalism that you
      seem to accept as not only a principle of common sense but also an article
      of faith. Hitler also used claims about historical connection to land to
      justify his brand of racist fascism


      My question is valid because it goes to determine the legitimacy of the
      partition of Palestine which goes to the legitimacy of Israel's description
      of its killings and maimings of Palestinians as self-defense. The point is -
      if one cannot justified the creation of Israel, then one has to admit that
      Israeli aggressions are against a people who is waging a legitimate
      struggle.

      Did I speak of tribalism ? Non, I speak of facts in order to prove that the
      partition of Palestine is not legitimate.

      Please reread my question again and try to respond.


      You said:
      >>Chris, unless you can justifiably proved that the creation of Israel in
      Palestine does not infringe on the rights of the Arabs i.e that the creation
      of Israel is legitimate, you have to admit that the Palestinians are facing
      an occupying army.....did the French Resistance negotiated with Nazi Germany
      ? Did Nazi Germany decided to leave France because of the peaceful means of
      the French ? <<

      The Germans did not voluntarily leave France and they certainly did not do
      so as a result of terrorist attacks targeting German children. The Germans
      were driven out of France by a superior military force that engaged in the
      German army. Here you really are comparing apples and oranges.


      Many times you have argued that war would not serve the Palestinians and you
      have urged for peaceful negotiations. Here you have contradicted yourself by
      agreeing with me. And if you are still aggrieved about some of the methods
      used by the Palestinians, then I suggest that you find a way for the
      Palestinians to get the sort of sophitiscated military equipments like what
      the Israelis got so that they can fight on a level playing field.

      You said:
      >>Do you think that the actions of the Palestinians against Israel is the
      product of Islam ? Or it is really about a struggle against the occupation
      of their homeland ?

      Blaming Islam to justify the struggle of the Palestinians or their
      methodology is popular for those unabled to disprove that the Palestinians
      have a legitimate fight to fight. To suggest or claim that becoming human
      bombs has to do with being Muslim or practising Islam is to ignore the
      reality of the Palestinian situation - imagine you how the Palestinians must
      feel knowing that the Israelis drove tanks to flatten large parts of a
      refugee camp as the world stood by.

      Human bombs equal to Islam ? Apparently you have never heard of the Tamil
      separatists in Sri Lanka.

      By the way Chris do you mind to cc your e-mails to me, that is whenever you
      feel the urge to offer your criticisms of my point of views ? I like to be
      kept in the loop. Thanks in advance.<<

      Let's face it. Islamic terrorists around the world are using the same
      tactics--Abu Sayf in the Phillipines, Al Qaeda around the world, Chechen
      terrorists in Russian, Islamic terrorists in India, Islamic terrorists in
      India and the Palestinians in Israel. The one common tread that they all
      seem to have is Islam. I have heard of the Tamil Tigers. I have also heard
      that they are Islamic.


      The failure on your part to know that the Tamil Tigers are Hindus is only
      overshadowed by your failure to understand that the conflicts in Mindanao
      (the Philippines), Chechenya (Russia) and Kashmir (India) are political
      conflicts.

      Do you know that the Moros of Mindanao opposed American plans to incorporate
      their homeland into an independent Philippines ? Do you that Mindanao
      consisted of Moro sultanates which were sovereign and independent and which
      withstood Spanish colonization attempts for over four centuries ? Do you
      that they lost their independence as the result of ill-advised decisions
      which saw Mindanao incorporated into American-controlled Philippines ? Do
      you that as citizens of the Philippines the Moros - the collective name for
      the 13 ethnolinguist groups who are Muslims - have been oppressed ? Do you
      that the first Moro organisation for the independence of Mindanao is called
      the Moro National Liberation Front ? ( see the name of Islam anywhere ? )

      In a word, the conflict in the south of the Philippines is political.

      And so are the conflicts in Chechnya (which came into Russian control in the
      same way like Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia etc which are now independent again
      and by the way these states are Christian) , Kashmir (whose rights of
      self-determination has been recognised by the United Nations itself, yes the
      very same which you have quoted again and again in your defense of the
      creation of Israel) and of course Palestine where there are important
      factors which not many people are aware of.

      I would love if you can prove to me that Islam is responsible for them.

      You mentioned Palestine - PLO isn't Islamic , the Popular Front for the
      Liberation Front of Palestine isn't Islamic (it is Marxist)

      If you can mentioned the Chechens, Abu Sayyaf, the Palestinians and those
      nasty ones in India as proof of "Islamic terrorism" then let me allow you to
      sample these :


      Basque - Religion : Christianity

      Northern Ireland - Religion : Christianity

      Catalonia - Religion - Christianity

      Corsica - Religion : Christianity

      Nagaland (india ) - Religion : Christianity

      Mizoram (india ) - Religion : Christianity

      Tripura (india) - Religion : Christianity

      Karen state (myanmar ) - Religion : Christianity

      Papua (indonesia ) - Religion : Christianity


      These places are involved in separatist conflicts and their populations are
      Christian.



      Regards


      faris








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