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Palestinian Terrorist Violate Rights of Palestinian Civilians

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  • james tan
    From: Christopher Bobo Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com To: Wisdom Forum , faris osman
    Message 1 of 3 , Apr 30, 2002
      From: "Christopher Bobo" <cbobo@...>
      Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
      To: "Wisdom Forum" <WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com>, "faris osman"
      <frovpt@...>, "Sayf Fariis" <terence_nunis@...>
      Subject: [WisdomForum] Palestinian Terrorist Violate Rights of Palestinian
      Civilians
      Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 13:36:48 -0700

      This commentary argues that Palestinian terrorists are responsible for
      civilian casualities in Jenin

      COMMENTARY



      Jenin's War Criminals
      By JEROME MARCUS
      The United Nations is intent on investigating charges that Israeli forces
      violated the human rights of Palestinians during this month's raid on the
      Jenin refugee camp. Because noncombatants were killed there, the word
      "massacre" is being bandied about in the press. Many in the "human rights
      community," however, have already reached a verdict. "When we are confronted
      with the extent of destruction of the Jenin refugee camp," says Rene
      Kosirnik of the International Committee of the Red Cross, "it is difficult
      to accept that international humanitarian law has been respected." Amnesty
      International claims it too has evidence of human-rights abuses in Jenin.
      Mr. Kosirnik and friends are right about one thing: International law was
      violated in Jenin, and the violations should be investigated. But the law
      was not broken by Israel, which has responded carefully and proportionately
      to the daily murder of its citizens. Under international law, the people
      violating the human rights of Palestinian noncombatants are Palestinian
      terrorists, who have hidden themselves and their weapons -- without uniforms
      or other identifying insignia required by the laws of war -- among the
      civilian population of the West Bank.
      In Article 58 of its Protocol relating to the Protection of Victims of
      International Armed Conflicts, the Geneva Convention says those in control
      of territory must "endeavor to remove the civilian population, individual
      civilians and civilian objects under their control from the vicinity of
      military objectives; Avoid locating military objectives within or near
      densely populated areas; Take the other necessary precautions to protect the
      civilian population, individual civilians and civilian objects under their
      control against the dangers resulting from military operations."
      George H. Aldrich, the chief American negotiator of this treaty, has
      explained that under it, "a party in control of territory" -- as the
      Palestinians were in each West Bank town until the Israelis defeated them --
      "is instructed to take all feasible measures to protect civilians and
      civilian objects from the effects of combat, largely by trying to separate
      them to the extent possible from military objectives." Such a party must
      therefore "avoid unnecessarily siting military objectives near civilian
      dwellings."
      The Palestinian terrorists did the exact opposite. Rather than "avoid
      unnecessarily siting military objectives near civilian dwellings," they hid
      such "objectives" almost exclusively in dwellings and other civilian
      buildings: The bomb factories Israel found throughout the West Bank were
      located in homes, schools and other civilian sites. And rather than "trying
      to separate, to the extent possible, from military objectives," the
      Palestinians went out of their way to hide military objectives behind, in,
      around and under civilian (and even humanitarian) objectives. The ambulance
      containing the bomb belt; the pregnant young woman in "labor" who turns out
      to be about to give birth to a bomb -- these are the most explicit possible
      violations of the international human rights of the population in whose
      midst these military objectives are hidden.
      In a post-battle interview with the Cairo weekly Al-Ahram, an Arab bomb
      maker named "Omar" proudly laid out the Palestinians' strategy of
      militarizing homes: "We had more than 50 houses booby-trapped around the
      camp," he said. Unarmed women lured Israeli soldiers to their deaths.
      The Palestinians used the civilian population like this, we know, because
      that is part of their strategy: make victims and then cry about victims.
      Plus, knowing they cannot face the IDF in the field, the Palestinians tried
      to cripple the Israeli army by hiding among civilians, thereby forcing the
      real soldiers to hold back. The Palestinians knew that the Israelis -- a
      disciplined army of husbands and fathers -- would restrain themselves to
      avoid killing noncombatants.
      Even Arab fighters have admitted the Israelis did exactly that. Captured
      Jenin-based terrorist Thabet Mardawi told CNN last week that he "and other
      Palestinian fighters had expected Israel to attack with planes and tanks."
      "I couldn't believe it when I saw the soldiers," he said. "The Israelis knew
      that any soldier who went into the camp like that was going to get killed."
      Shooting at these men as they walked cautiously down the street "was like
      hunting . . . like being given a prize. . . I've been waiting for a moment
      like that for years."
      Can it be any clearer? The 13 Israeli soldiers killed in that Jenin
      deathtrap died precisely because they were trying to discriminate between
      military and nonmilitary "objectives" the way a Daisy Cutter can't. In other
      words, they were trying to undo the effect of the human-rights violations
      inflicted on the population of Jenin by the terrorist army that made its
      home there.
      Eventually, of course -- as was certain to happen so long as they were not
      pulled out too soon -- the Israelis were successful in their mission. But
      the Palestinian terrorists, having planted themselves among civilians, have
      harvested a fresh crop of victims, which they are now using for
      public-relations purposes. The U.N. investigation in Jenin is the fruit of
      that PR campaign. What the Palestinians did to harvest that fruit, however
      is the real violation of the West Bank residents' human rights.
      The only proper question for the U.N. to ask about Israel's conduct, by
      contrast, is whether it was a proportionate response to this provocation and
      to these methods of fighting. If the U.N. wants to investigate that question
      again, it should be free to do so. But it cannot even pose the question
      properly without an accurate understanding of the unceasing human-rights
      violations that Israel confronted as its soldiers walked slowly down the
      booby-trapped streets of Jenin, trying to tell the difference between
      innocent victims of war and the terrorists hiding among them, using them as
      human shields.
      That fraud is the real human-rights violation in Jenin, and throughout the
      West Bank.
      Mr. Marcus, an attorney with the State Department in 1987-88, is a lawyer in
      Philadelphia.








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    • james tan
      the whole thing seem to hinge on the word legitimacy . how legitimate is the israel s claim to be there? what are the criteria to validity to legitimacy of
      Message 2 of 3 , May 2, 2002
        the whole thing seem to hinge on the word 'legitimacy'.
        how legitimate is the israel's claim to be there?
        what are the criteria to validity to legitimacy of such claims? are such
        criteria absolutely objective and valid? who is to tell?

        james.


        From: "Sayf Uddeen Fariis @ Terence Kenneth John Nunis"
        <terence_nunis@...>
        Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
        To: "Christopher Bobo" <cbobo@...>, "Wisdom Forum"
        <WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com>, "faris osman" <frovpt@...>
        Subject: [WisdomForum] Re: Palestinian Terrorist Violate Rights of
        Palestinian Civilians
        Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 01:21:55 +0800

        And thus they are responsible for armed settlers attacking them, for the
        fact that Israeli Apaches fire Hellfire (an anti-armour missile) at civilian
        cars to liquidate suspected terrorists, for Israeli Merkavas (one of the
        most advanced Main Battle Tanks in the world) firing into civilian
        beighbourhoods, etc.

        Now that's rich.

        Why don't I say that millions of innocent Jews, Slavs, gypsies, homosexuals,
        pro-communists and the like are responsible for the massacre for being who
        they are. You forget that Israel is the aggressor here.

        Why not say that the Resistance was responsible for German reprisal attacks
        in Vichy France for having the audacity to oppose Nazi hegemony?

        Terence Nunis
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Christopher Bobo
        To: Wisdom Forum ; faris osman ; Sayf Fariis
        Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 4:36 AM
        Subject: Palestinian Terrorist Violate Rights of Palestinian Civilians


        This commentary argues that Palestinian terrorists are responsible for
        civilian casualities in Jenin

        COMMENTARY



        Jenin's War Criminals

        By JEROME MARCUS

        The United Nations is intent on investigating charges that Israeli
        forces violated the human rights of Palestinians during this month's raid on
        the Jenin refugee camp. Because noncombatants were killed there, the word
        "massacre" is being bandied about in the press. Many in the "human rights
        community," however, have already reached a verdict. "When we are confronted
        with the extent of destruction of the Jenin refugee camp," says Rene
        Kosirnik of the International Committee of the Red Cross, "it is difficult
        to accept that international humanitarian law has been respected." Amnesty
        International claims it too has evidence of human-rights abuses in Jenin.

        Mr. Kosirnik and friends are right about one thing: International
        law was violated in Jenin, and the violations should be investigated. But
        the law was not broken by Israel, which has responded carefully and
        proportionately to the daily murder of its citizens. Under international
        law, the people violating the human rights of Palestinian noncombatants are
        Palestinian terrorists, who have hidden themselves and their weapons --
        without uniforms or other identifying insignia required by the laws of war
        -- among the civilian population of the West Bank.

        In Article 58 of its Protocol relating to the Protection of Victims
        of International Armed Conflicts, the Geneva Convention says those in
        control of territory must "endeavor to remove the civilian population,
        individual civilians and civilian objects under their control from the
        vicinity of military objectives; Avoid locating military objectives within
        or near densely populated areas; Take the other necessary precautions to
        protect the civilian population, individual civilians and civilian objects
        under their control against the dangers resulting from military operations."

        George H. Aldrich, the chief American negotiator of this treaty,
        has explained that under it, "a party in control of territory" -- as the
        Palestinians were in each West Bank town until the Israelis defeated them --
        "is instructed to take all feasible measures to protect civilians and
        civilian objects from the effects of combat, largely by trying to separate
        them to the extent possible from military objectives." Such a party must
        therefore "avoid unnecessarily siting military objectives near civilian
        dwellings."

        The Palestinian terrorists did the exact opposite. Rather than
        "avoid unnecessarily siting military objectives near civilian dwellings,"
        they hid such "objectives" almost exclusively in dwellings and other
        civilian buildings: The bomb factories Israel found throughout the West Bank
        were located in homes, schools and other civilian sites. And rather than
        "trying to separate, to the extent possible, from military objectives," the
        Palestinians went out of their way to hide military objectives behind, in,
        around and under civilian (and even humanitarian) objectives. The ambulance
        containing the bomb belt; the pregnant young woman in "labor" who turns out
        to be about to give birth to a bomb -- these are the most explicit possible
        violations of the international human rights of the population in whose
        midst these military objectives are hidden.

        In a post-battle interview with the Cairo weekly Al-Ahram, an Arab
        bomb maker named "Omar" proudly laid out the Palestinians' strategy of
        militarizing homes: "We had more than 50 houses booby-trapped around the
        camp," he said. Unarmed women lured Israeli soldiers to their deaths.

        The Palestinians used the civilian population like this, we know,
        because that is part of their strategy: make victims and then cry about
        victims. Plus, knowing they cannot face the IDF in the field, the
        Palestinians tried to cripple the Israeli army by hiding among civilians,
        thereby forcing the real soldiers to hold back. The Palestinians knew that
        the Israelis -- a disciplined army of husbands and fathers -- would restrain
        themselves to avoid killing noncombatants.

        Even Arab fighters have admitted the Israelis did exactly that.
        Captured Jenin-based terrorist Thabet Mardawi told CNN last week that he
        "and other Palestinian fighters had expected Israel to attack with planes
        and tanks." "I couldn't believe it when I saw the soldiers," he said. "The
        Israelis knew that any soldier who went into the camp like that was going to
        get killed." Shooting at these men as they walked cautiously down the street
        "was like hunting . . . like being given a prize. . . I've been waiting for
        a moment like that for years."

        Can it be any clearer? The 13 Israeli soldiers killed in that Jenin
        deathtrap died precisely because they were trying to discriminate between
        military and nonmilitary "objectives" the way a Daisy Cutter can't. In other
        words, they were trying to undo the effect of the human-rights violations
        inflicted on the population of Jenin by the terrorist army that made its
        home there.

        Eventually, of course -- as was certain to happen so long as they
        were not pulled out too soon -- the Israelis were successful in their
        mission. But the Palestinian terrorists, having planted themselves among
        civilians, have harvested a fresh crop of victims, which they are now using
        for public-relations purposes. The U.N. investigation in Jenin is the fruit
        of that PR campaign. What the Palestinians did to harvest that fruit,
        however is the real violation of the West Bank residents' human rights.

        The only proper question for the U.N. to ask about Israel's
        conduct, by contrast, is whether it was a proportionate response to this
        provocation and to these methods of fighting. If the U.N. wants to
        investigate that question again, it should be free to do so. But it cannot
        even pose the question properly without an accurate understanding of the
        unceasing human-rights violations that Israel confronted as its soldiers
        walked slowly down the booby-trapped streets of Jenin, trying to tell the
        difference between innocent victims of war and the terrorists hiding among
        them, using them as human shields.

        That fraud is the real human-rights violation in Jenin, and
        throughout the West Bank.

        Mr. Marcus, an attorney with the State Department in 1987-88, is a
        lawyer in Philadelphia.













        _________________________________________________________________
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      • james tan
        chris, i see. i just wrote another one about my query to the question of legitimacy prior to reading this post of yours. couldn t help thinking along this line
        Message 3 of 3 , May 3, 2002
          chris,

          i see. i just wrote another one about my query to the question of legitimacy
          prior to reading this post of yours. couldn't help thinking along this line
          when i hear the muslim contributors here keep saying that the israeli is the
          'unlawful', 'illegal', 'illegitimate' occupier of the land of palestine. i
          notice that most of the replies back to them, such as terence and faris,
          basically is not well accepted because the basic premise, about who does the
          land 'really' belongs to, is not shared by both sides. there is no agreement
          how such question of legitimacy can be settled, and as such all subsequent
          discussion on the morality of it all is futile, i think. i might call it a
          question of criterion validity (to use a term in principles of
          psychometrics).

          james.


          From: "Christopher Bobo" <cbobo@...>
          Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
          To: "Wisdom Forum" <WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com>
          Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Re: Palestinian Terrorist Violate Rights of
          Palestinian Civilians
          Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 08:13:36 -0700

          James,

          As usual you are quite right. We have been talking about the concept of
          "legitimacy" with respect to nation states. One of the problems connected
          with addressing the concept of "legitimacy" is that historically, there have
          been many different tests for legitimacy, and some of these are culturally
          relative. Take for instance the Chinese notion of the Divine Mandate of
          Heaven. We can speak of the "legitimacy" of governments by asking whether
          they were constitutionally constituted, if there is a written constitution
          for proscribing how governments in a particluar local are to be constituted.

          What seems to be at issue in our discussions; however, is not whether any
          particular government or administration is "legitimate" but whether the
          geographical location of a particular nation state is "legitimate". I have
          tried to suggest by traditional measures of such issues, Israel is indeed a
          "legitimate" nation. The test proposed by some --longevity--is not a very
          useful measure as it would prevent all change and is itself subject to
          dispute.

          Chris

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: james tan
          Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 12:45 AM
          To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [WisdomForum] Re: Palestinian Terrorist Violate Rights of
          Palestinian Civilians


          the whole thing seem to hinge on the word 'legitimacy'.
          how legitimate is the israel's claim to be there?
          what are the criteria to validity to legitimacy of such claims? are such
          criteria absolutely objective and valid? who is to tell?

          james.


          From: "Sayf Uddeen Fariis @ Terence Kenneth John Nunis"
          <terence_nunis@...>
          Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
          To: "Christopher Bobo" <cbobo@...>, "Wisdom Forum"
          <WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com>, "faris osman" <frovpt@...>
          Subject: [WisdomForum] Re: Palestinian Terrorist Violate Rights of
          Palestinian Civilians
          Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 01:21:55 +0800

          And thus they are responsible for armed settlers attacking them, for the
          fact that Israeli Apaches fire Hellfire (an anti-armour missile) at civilian
          cars to liquidate suspected terrorists, for Israeli Merkavas (one of the
          most advanced Main Battle Tanks in the world) firing into civilian
          beighbourhoods, etc.

          Now that's rich.

          Why don't I say that millions of innocent Jews, Slavs, gypsies, homosexuals,
          pro-communists and the like are responsible for the massacre for being who
          they are. You forget that Israel is the aggressor here.

          Why not say that the Resistance was responsible for German reprisal attacks
          in Vichy France for having the audacity to oppose Nazi hegemony?

          Terence Nunis
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Christopher Bobo
          To: Wisdom Forum ; faris osman ; Sayf Fariis
          Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 4:36 AM
          Subject: Palestinian Terrorist Violate Rights of Palestinian Civilians


          This commentary argues that Palestinian terrorists are responsible for
          civilian casualities in Jenin

          COMMENTARY



          Jenin's War Criminals

          By JEROME MARCUS

          The United Nations is intent on investigating charges that Israeli
          forces violated the human rights of Palestinians during this month's raid on
          the Jenin refugee camp. Because noncombatants were killed there, the word
          "massacre" is being bandied about in the press. Many in the "human rights
          community," however, have already reached a verdict. "When we are confronted
          with the extent of destruction of the Jenin refugee camp," says Rene
          Kosirnik of the International Committee of the Red Cross, "it is difficult
          to accept that international humanitarian law has been respected." Amnesty
          International claims it too has evidence of human-rights abuses in Jenin.

          Mr. Kosirnik and friends are right about one thing: International
          law was violated in Jenin, and the violations should be investigated. But
          the law was not broken by Israel, which has responded carefully and
          proportionately to the daily murder of its citizens. Under international
          law, the people violating the human rights of Palestinian noncombatants are
          Palestinian terrorists, who have hidden themselves and their weapons --
          without uniforms or other identifying insignia required by the laws of war
          -- among the civilian population of the West Bank.

          In Article 58 of its Protocol relating to the Protection of
          Victims
          of International Armed Conflicts, the Geneva Convention says those in
          control of territory must "endeavor to remove the civilian population,
          individual civilians and civilian objects under their control from the
          vicinity of military objectives; Avoid locating military objectives within
          or near densely populated areas; Take the other necessary precautions to
          protect the civilian population, individual civilians and civilian objects
          under their control against the dangers resulting from military operations."

          George H. Aldrich, the chief American negotiator of this treaty,
          has explained that under it, "a party in control of territory" -- as the
          Palestinians were in each West Bank town until the Israelis defeated them --
          "is instructed to take all feasible measures to protect civilians and
          civilian objects from the effects of combat, largely by trying to separate
          them to the extent possible from military objectives." Such a party must
          therefore "avoid unnecessarily siting military objectives near civilian
          dwellings."

          The Palestinian terrorists did the exact opposite. Rather than
          "avoid unnecessarily siting military objectives near civilian dwellings,"
          they hid such "objectives" almost exclusively in dwellings and other
          civilian buildings: The bomb factories Israel found throughout the West Bank
          were located in homes, schools and other civilian sites. And rather than
          "trying to separate, to the extent possible, from military objectives," the
          Palestinians went out of their way to hide military objectives behind, in,
          around and under civilian (and even humanitarian) objectives. The ambulance
          containing the bomb belt; the pregnant young woman in "labor" who turns out
          to be about to give birth to a bomb -- these are the most explicit possible
          violations of the international human rights of the population in whose
          midst these military objectives are hidden.

          In a post-battle interview with the Cairo weekly Al-Ahram, an Arab
          bomb maker named "Omar" proudly laid out the Palestinians' strategy of
          militarizing homes: "We had more than 50 houses booby-trapped around the
          camp," he said. Unarmed women lured Israeli soldiers to their deaths.

          The Palestinians used the civilian population like this, we know,
          because that is part of their strategy: make victims and then cry about
          victims. Plus, knowing they cannot face the IDF in the field, the
          Palestinians tried to cripple the Israeli army by hiding among civilians,
          thereby forcing the real soldiers to hold back. The Palestinians knew that
          the Israelis -- a disciplined army of husbands and fathers -- would restrain
          themselves to avoid killing noncombatants.

          Even Arab fighters have admitted the Israelis did exactly that.
          Captured Jenin-based terrorist Thabet Mardawi told CNN last week that he
          "and other Palestinian fighters had expected Israel to attack with planes
          and tanks." "I couldn't believe it when I saw the soldiers," he said. "The
          Israelis knew that any soldier who went into the camp like that was going to
          get killed." Shooting at these men as they walked cautiously down the street
          "was like hunting . . . like being given a prize. . . I've been waiting for
          a moment like that for years."

          Can it be any clearer? The 13 Israeli soldiers killed in that
          Jenin
          deathtrap died precisely because they were trying to discriminate between
          military and nonmilitary "objectives" the way a Daisy Cutter can't. In other
          words, they were trying to undo the effect of the human-rights violations
          inflicted on the population of Jenin by the terrorist army that made its
          home there.

          Eventually, of course -- as was certain to happen so long as they
          were not pulled out too soon -- the Israelis were successful in their
          mission. But the Palestinian terrorists, having planted themselves among
          civilians, have harvested a fresh crop of victims, which they are now using
          for public-relations purposes. The U.N. investigation in Jenin is the fruit
          of that PR campaign. What the Palestinians did to harvest that fruit,
          however is the real violation of the West Bank residents' human rights.

          The only proper question for the U.N. to ask about Israel's
          conduct, by contrast, is whether it was a proportionate response to this
          provocation and to these methods of fighting. If the U.N. wants to
          investigate that question again, it should be free to do so. But it cannot
          even pose the question properly without an accurate understanding of the
          unceasing human-rights violations that Israel confronted as its soldiers
          walked slowly down the booby-trapped streets of Jenin, trying to tell the
          difference between innocent victims of war and the terrorists hiding among
          them, using them as human shields.

          That fraud is the real human-rights violation in Jenin, and
          throughout the West Bank.

          Mr. Marcus, an attorney with the State Department in 1987-88, is a
          lawyer in Philadelphia.













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