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Re: [existlist] Degrading Darwin

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  • Bill Harris
    James, I fail to see how this selection degrades Darwin. I agree that evolution, indeed life itself has no purpose beyond that of living itself. Evolution is
    Message 1 of 6 , Apr 30, 2002
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      James, I fail to see how this selection degrades Darwin. I agree that evolution, indeed life itself has no purpose beyond that of living itself. Evolution is the process of living organisms taking advantage of opportunity. Progress is mans idea, life attempts to survive. Here the monkey trial goes on and on. Bill
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: james tan
      Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 7:29 AM
      Subject: [existlist] Degrading Darwin


      Spiked Online

      23 April 2002
      Degrading Darwin

      by Stuart Hobday

      In June 1860, seven months after his Origin of Species was published,
      Charles
      Darwin wrote to the geologist Charles Lyell:

      'I am beginning to despair of ever making the majority understand my
      notions...I must be a very bad explainer. Several reviews and letters have
      shown me too clearly how little I am understood. I suppose "natural
      selection"
      was bad term; but to change it now would make confusion worse confounded.
      "Natural preservation" would seem a truism and would bring man's and
      nature's
      selection under one point of view.' (1)

      Darwin's lament was that nobody seemed to understand that natural selection
      is
      a process without purpose - without a preordained outcome and without an
      active
      selection process as in 'Man's selection'. I believe that this aspect of
      Darwin's idea has never become widely understood - and that instead, history
      and culture have dictated that evolution, as an active conscious selector
      and
      an inevitably progressive force, is widely thought to represent natural
      selection.

      Full text
      http://www.spiked-online.com/Articles/00000006D8AE.htm





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    • Bill Harris
      Eduard, society is perhaps the most unscientific of structures. Darwin was a taxonomist, I doubt he cared thing one for the societal consequences of his
      Message 2 of 6 , Apr 30, 2002
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        Eduard, society is perhaps the most unscientific of structures. Darwin was a taxonomist, I doubt he cared thing one for the societal consequences of his brillient observation. I am constantly being reminded I should embrace society and attempt to polish its sooted surface. Contradiction of the secound rule of shit: You cannot polish shit. Bill
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Eduard Alf
        To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 8:26 AM
        Subject: RE: [existlist] Degrading Darwin


        james,

        the problem that Darwin had was that he upset the current paradigm that
        supported not only the religious outlook, but also the class structure.
        "Natural Selection" presented the possibility that anyone could raise
        themselves to the highest ranks of society. In other words, being an Earl
        or whatever is not something divinely ordained. Darwin was a threat and the
        one tactic in opposing a threat is to say that it is not understood.

        eduard
        -----Original Message-----
        From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
        Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 8:29 AM
        Subject: [existlist] Degrading Darwin


        Spiked Online

        23 April 2002
        Degrading Darwin

        by Stuart Hobday

        In June 1860, seven months after his Origin of Species was published,
        Charles
        Darwin wrote to the geologist Charles Lyell:

        'I am beginning to despair of ever making the majority understand my
        notions...I must be a very bad explainer. Several reviews and letters have
        shown me too clearly how little I am understood. I suppose "natural
        selection"
        was bad term; but to change it now would make confusion worse confounded.
        "Natural preservation" would seem a truism and would bring man's and
        nature's
        selection under one point of view.' (1)

        Darwin's lament was that nobody seemed to understand that natural
        selection
        is
        a process without purpose - without a preordained outcome and without an
        active
        selection process as in 'Man's selection'. I believe that this aspect of
        Darwin's idea has never become widely understood - and that instead,
        history
        and culture have dictated that evolution, as an active conscious selector
        and
        an inevitably progressive force, is widely thought to represent natural
        selection.

        Full text
        http://www.spiked-online.com/Articles/00000006D8AE.htm





        __________

        Unsubscribe or change your subscription options at
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        Archive: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/evolutionary-psychology/messages/
        Join Evolutionary Psychology:
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        Human Nature Review: http://human-nature.com/
        Human Nature Daily Review http://human-nature.com/nibbs/

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      • Doug Thayer
        ... Slightly inaccurate; darwinism actually provided a rationalization for the class structure and fit closely with the idea of aristocratic blood. Those of
        Message 3 of 6 , Apr 30, 2002
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          On Tue, Apr 30, 2002 at 09:26:28AM -0400, Eduard Alf wrote:
          > james,
          >
          > the problem that Darwin had was that he upset the current paradigm that
          > supported not only the religious outlook, but also the class structure.
          > "Natural Selection" presented the possibility that anyone could raise
          > themselves to the highest ranks of society. In other words, being an Earl
          > or whatever is not something divinely ordained. Darwin was a threat and the
          > one tactic in opposing a threat is to say that it is not understood.
          >
          > eduard

          Slightly inaccurate; darwinism actually provided a rationalization for the
          class structure and fit closely with the idea of aristocratic blood. Those
          of higher class could be argued to have won the position over many
          generations due to better heredity (Darwin, if I understand correctly, did
          not actually know about genes but knew that children were often much like
          their parents).

          Darwinism was thus hated by socialists/communists, who embraced the opposite
          theory of Lamarckism, which became Lysenkoism in the Soviet Union.

          ----
          Doug
        • Eduard Alf
          Doug, I would grant that the idea of natural selection supports a class structure, but it also does away with the concept that the upper classes have a
          Message 4 of 6 , Apr 30, 2002
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            Doug,

            I would grant that the idea of natural selection supports a class structure,
            but it also does away with the concept that the upper classes have a
            specialized basis for being there. If you can explain the advancement of
            one portion of society, then that is to open the spectre of others also
            arising. Although it is simply an opinion, my feeling is that coherent
            explanations are not welcomed by those who have a specific agenda. It was
            better in the old days when society was divinely ordered. At least you
            could pin it all on god, and who can argue against god.

            I see your point on Lysenkoism in the Soviet Union, but does not that
            confirm my point? That is, science was to be subordinated to the objectives
            of the state. I would say the same thing for Darwinism, except the "state"
            in this case is the upper class.

            eduard
            -----Original Message-----
            From: Doug Thayer [mailto:d_l_thayer@...]
            Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 5:59 PM
            To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [existlist] Degrading Darwin



            On Tue, Apr 30, 2002 at 09:26:28AM -0400, Eduard Alf wrote:
            > james,
            >
            > the problem that Darwin had was that he upset the current paradigm that
            > supported not only the religious outlook, but also the class structure.
            > "Natural Selection" presented the possibility that anyone could raise
            > themselves to the highest ranks of society. In other words, being an
            Earl
            > or whatever is not something divinely ordained. Darwin was a threat and
            the
            > one tactic in opposing a threat is to say that it is not understood.
            >
            > eduard

            Slightly inaccurate; darwinism actually provided a rationalization for the
            class structure and fit closely with the idea of aristocratic blood.
            Those
            of higher class could be argued to have won the position over many
            generations due to better heredity (Darwin, if I understand correctly, did
            not actually know about genes but knew that children were often much like
            their parents).

            Darwinism was thus hated by socialists/communists, who embraced the
            opposite
            theory of Lamarckism, which became Lysenkoism in the Soviet Union.

            ----
            Doug


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