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Re: What really happened when Israeli forces went into Jenin?

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  • james tan
    wrong, tommy. if ever this whole thing drags on, the real loser is the palestinians. i have no vested interest in whoever win , but if one look at the data
    Message 1 of 2 , Apr 27, 2002
      wrong, tommy. if ever this whole thing drags on, the real loser is the
      palestinians. i have no vested interest in whoever 'win', but if one look at
      the data available concerning military power between israel and palestine,
      it is obvious that israel is the superior. there is no reason why israel
      will collapse.

      u believed:
      "I remain convinced that in the end Israel will fall. This will be
      either due to internal pressure from Israelis sick and tired of the
      price they have to pay to ensure the continued existence of their
      racial homeland and fatigue at churning out endless propaganda in the
      face of international criticism."

      if u think the israelis will disintegrate because of palestinians' suicide
      attacks, then u are wrong again. there is terror and anger no doubt on the
      side of the israeli, but that does not necessarily mean they will get tired
      and sick AND THEN CONCLUDE they should give up. marines and soldiers get
      tired and fatigues all the time, but does that mean they give up? have u
      been a soldier before? they may get fatigue, yes; but they will not give up.
      when osama terrorised america, americans did get fatigue and terrorised, but
      to say that their spirit is down and ready to admit defeat is totally
      laughable, a private dream of the terrorists to which they will wake up one
      day to realise they may have to pay tenfold for their action. in the long
      run, what they do in sucide attacks is counterproductive, and will backfire
      on themselves. in terms of ratio, for every israeli killed, there are many
      many more palestinians killed; if this thing were to drag on, if anything,
      it is the palestinians that will suffer, it is the palestinian that will
      fall. if they are wise and rational, they should come to some kind of
      realistic compromise. international criticism? well, international opinion
      is pretty divided on this issue for a start, and besides, which fate is
      worse for the israeli: international criticism or to be left without a
      state? and with america as israel's ally (i suppose that is part of the
      reason why osama hated america that much), tommy, ur little hope for the
      fall of israel will only happen in ur muslim prayer and dream; it will not
      happen in reality. that is how thing is, that is how thing is gonna to be.
      right now, if the quality of life is low for the israeli because of suicide
      attacks from the palestinians, then u can be pretty sure that the quality of
      life for the palestinians are 100 times worse off. if, of the two, one will
      wear off from all this drags and fights, it is pretty clear that the
      palestinians will be first one to wear off. the faster the palestinians come
      to their senses, the less will be their suffering, the sooner will they find
      dignity in their lives again.

      james.

      From: Tommy Beavitt <tommy@...>
      Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
      To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Re: What really happened when Israeli forces went
      into Jenin?
      Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 09:09:26 +0100

      At 10:01 pm -0700 26/4/02, Christopher Bobo wrote:
      >I agree with your analysis. As long as the Palestinians are
      >determined to make war, there will be no peace. Quite frankly, I'm
      >just amazed that they frankly declare their intention to be
      >uncompromising and unreasonable and ask others to agree with them.
      >It's even more amazing that some people do agree with them. Most
      >people, I think, would like to put the Palestinian problem behind
      >them and move on with a constructive life. Others seem determined
      >to prolong the conflict and suffering at all costs. Perhaps the
      >latest Saudi proposal will eventually provide a framework for
      >resolution. What is most amazing to me is all the criticism leveled
      >at the U.S. As we have seen here, the radicals will settle for
      >nothing less than the destruction of Israel, therefore, the will
      >continue to pursue terrorism against Israel, the Israelis will
      >doubtless continue to defend themselves. And the logic is, it's all
      >the fault of the U.S. Really, the radical position is quite absurd.
      >President Bush has, I think, been very reasonable in his approach.
      >I really wonder what people expect the U.S. to do with people
      >determined to kill each other. The situation reminds me of the
      >recent movie No Man's Land. There the combatants were determined to
      >kill each other and eventually got the U.N. involved in the killing
      >as well, despite the U.N. soldiers' best efforts to save lives and
      >avoid killing. If the Palestinians were really committed to peace
      >and were unambiguously willing to live in peace with the Israelis,
      >then the U.S. could apply real pressure on the Israelis to make
      >greater concessions. But with the Palestinians bent on war and
      >destruction, there is really nothing that anyone can do help them.
      >Face it, America is not likely to abandon long time friends when
      >they are under attack.
      >

      But Chris, it is reasonable to demand the destruction of the State of
      Israel. The country has been constituted on a false premise: the
      racial separateness of the Jewish people. There is no other modern
      democracy which has as part of its constitution the rights of
      immigrants and citizens according to their race. The nearest
      equivalent in modern history is South Africa which thankfully ditched
      apartheid in the 1980s.

      I don't think many would agree that SA is a worse country now than it
      was when it was in the hands of De Clerk. Sure, it has many problems
      including AIDS, township poverty and crime etc. but at least it can
      go forward in the full confidence of statehood without being
      compromised by a racialist constitution.

      The reasons for Israel coming into being in the first place are
      adequately covered by the articles you quote. It is easy enough to
      see their logic. No doubt the Arabs are entitled to feel irritated by
      the fact that their lands were taken away on the basis of crimes
      committed against Jews by Europeans. It would be unreasonable, of
      course, to demand that any current Israeli citizens should go back to
      where they have come from. Likewise, with Palestinians currently
      living in Israel or Palestine.

      I remain convinced that in the end Israel will fall. This will be
      either due to internal pressure from Israelis sick and tired of the
      price they have to pay to ensure the continued existence of their
      racial homeland and fatigue at churning out endless propaganda in the
      face of international criticism. Or it may be that its critics will
      mount a devastating military attack to which Israel will be forced to
      respond with such deadly force that the territories become
      inhabitable. It is to be fervently hoped that it is the former.
      Either way, I don't think we can expect the current seeming lull in
      the suicide bombing to continue until these fundamental problems are
      addressed.

      The international community should be ready with a plan when the time
      comes. In my opinion this should consist of a reconstitution of the
      state of Israel with a new name that reflects the traditions of all
      its inhabiting communities and guaranteeing the equal citizenship
      rights of all regardless of race or religion. There should be an
      instant stop put to any immigration that is based on race. The claims
      of those who wish to return based upon existing family ties or
      property claims should be examined on a case-by-case basis with an
      international monitor charged with ensuring their fairness. Jerusalem
      should revert to being an international protectorate, preferably on a
      permanent basis. As far as I could make out from the encyclopaedia
      article, it is still officially a UN protectorate.

      The UN should have its head office there; it should be celebrated by
      all the nations of the world as a spiritual centre for the three
      major monetheistic religions, all of whom should be given the right
      to practice their religions there. We should be delighted to
      contribute sufficient funds for this international city to be able to
      defend its integrity.

      Tommy











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