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Re: [existlist] Antisemite and Jew

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  • John Taft
    James, Here s another approach The population growth rate in Palestine is 6%. The growth rate of Jewish Israel is 2.6% and I think, in last night s news, the
    Message 1 of 16 , Apr 10, 2002
      James,

      Here's another approach

      The population growth rate in Palestine is 6%. The growth rate of Jewish
      Israel is 2.6% and I think, in last night's news, the growth rate of
      Palestinians that are Israelis citizens is 3.5 or something like that.

      We all know the results such an imbalance will produce ala Darwin (actually
      just simple arithmetic.)

      So, over time it is not necessary for the Palestinians to do anything more
      than keep up the numbers game and the Israeli democracy will be overrun from
      within if not swamped from outside.

      Tell me why I am wrong?

      John
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "james tan" <tyjfk@...>
      To: <WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 11:12 AM
      Subject: [existlist] Antisemite and Jew


      >
      > am not sure if talking about neo-nazism and jewish conspiracies could be
      > considered as a degeneration; after all, such beliefs, if held by people
      no
      > matter how irrational, could produce actions which are unwise. and though
      i
      > could understand ur attempt to empathize with the palestinians (same
      here),
      > to say that we should celebrate the 'heroism' of sucide bombers is too hot
      a
      > tea to swallow, at least for me. just because a man has a sad history is
      no
      > reason for us to condone his murderous activity for revenge, let alone to
      > celebrate it. a better way can be worked out, but to condone an eye for an
      > eye seems maladative in the long run (what does it achieve really).
      suicide
      > bombing does not resolve conflicts, it only worsen it.
      >
      > james.
      >
      >
      > From: Tommy Beavitt <tommy@...>
      > Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
      > To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew
      > Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 12:40:26 +0100
      >
      > I am sorry that this forum has degenerated into stuff about neo-nazis
      > and Jewish conspiracies. Unfortunately that says more about the times
      > we live in, I think, than any lack of rationality on the part of
      > contributors.
      >
      > With regard to the similarity to the ideas of David Duke and Adolph
      > Hitler, point taken, it is true. The difficulty is that what we are
      > discussing are the flagrant racist and terrorist policies being
      > adopted by the zionist entity, the state of Israel.
      >
      > Of course Hitler was wrong to conclude that the reason for the
      > inequity faced by ordinary Germans in the 1930s was the fault of the
      > Jews. People who have Jewish blood running through their veins are
      > not essentially different from you and I in any way whatsoever. So
      > it was completely irrational (not to say immoral) to select for the
      > innmates of Auschwitz and Belsen those people who were believed to be
      > of Jewish blood.
      >
      > This does not necessarily invalidate some of the arguments supporting
      > the premises upon which this racist creed was constructed. In other
      > words, Germany in the 20s and 30s was indeed the unfortunate victim
      > of a zionist conspiracy.
      >
      > It is for very good reasons that we agree to deprecate racism as a
      > criteria for judging whether another human being is a friend or an
      > enemy. Such thinking leads to disaster for the human race and
      > civilisation on a far more serious scale than conflict based on other
      > criteria.
      >
      > Unfortunately this self-same error was perpetuated in the aftermath
      > of the Second World War and especially in 1948 with the creation of a
      > state which has racism written into its constitution. In a move which
      > almost belies belief (and to a certain extent mitigates the racist
      > rhetoric of Hitler in the 30s) the Allied Powers connived in the
      > creation and maintenance of a state which bases its immigration
      > policy on the criterion of whether the applicant has Jewish blood
      > running through his or her veins. There is absolutely no justication
      > or precedent for this in the modern world and we should all agree
      > that Israel as it stands has no more right to exist in the modern
      > world than apartheid South Africa had.
      >
      > Until this is agreed by the international community and Israel is
      > reconstitued to give equal rights of citizenship to all of its
      > residents there can be no peace in the land of Palestine and we
      > should celebrate the heroism of Palestinian suicide bombers in their
      > valiant attempts to obtain justice in the face of overwhelming
      > oppressive force.
      >
      > It may also be that partitioning the land of Palestine to give a
      > state to Palestinians with a viable economy and borders it can defend
      > against its Israeli neighbours will be a necessary step to ensure
      > that peace becomes possible.
      >
      > Tommy Beavitt
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > _________________________________________________________________
      > Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
      > http://www.hotmail.com
      >
      >
      >
      > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
      > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
      >
      > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
      > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >
    • Eduard Alf
      John, You are not wrong. The Jews have a similar problem within their own community. There is a lot of controversy on the adherence to religious laws.
      Message 2 of 16 , Apr 10, 2002
        John,

        You are not wrong. The Jews have a similar problem within their own
        community. There is a lot of controversy on the adherence to religious
        laws. Immigration from Europe and Russia is changing the demographics from
        the fundamentalist section of the population. Things change.

        The worst scenario, however, does not come from growth of Palestinians, but
        what is happening in the Arab countries. I heard last night on the Charlie
        Rose interview that something like 40 percent of Saudis are under 14 years
        of age. There is a huge demographic bulge with no real future. Spells a
        lot of trouble all round.

        eduard
        -----Original Message-----
        From: John Taft [mailto:J-Taft@...]
        Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 6:06 PM
        To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [existlist] Antisemite and Jew


        James,

        Here's another approach

        The population growth rate in Palestine is 6%. The growth rate of Jewish
        Israel is 2.6% and I think, in last night's news, the growth rate of
        Palestinians that are Israelis citizens is 3.5 or something like that.

        We all know the results such an imbalance will produce ala Darwin
        (actually
        just simple arithmetic.)

        So, over time it is not necessary for the Palestinians to do anything more
        than keep up the numbers game and the Israeli democracy will be overrun
        from
        within if not swamped from outside.

        Tell me why I am wrong?

        John
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "james tan" <tyjfk@...>
        To: <WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 11:12 AM
        Subject: [existlist] Antisemite and Jew


        >
        > am not sure if talking about neo-nazism and jewish conspiracies could be
        > considered as a degeneration; after all, such beliefs, if held by people
        no
        > matter how irrational, could produce actions which are unwise. and
        though
        i
        > could understand ur attempt to empathize with the palestinians (same
        here),
        > to say that we should celebrate the 'heroism' of sucide bombers is too
        hot
        a
        > tea to swallow, at least for me. just because a man has a sad history is
        no
        > reason for us to condone his murderous activity for revenge, let alone
        to
        > celebrate it. a better way can be worked out, but to condone an eye for
        an
        > eye seems maladative in the long run (what does it achieve really).
        suicide
        > bombing does not resolve conflicts, it only worsen it.
        >
        > james.
        >
        >
        > From: Tommy Beavitt <tommy@...>
        > Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
        > To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew
        > Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 12:40:26 +0100
        >
        > I am sorry that this forum has degenerated into stuff about neo-nazis
        > and Jewish conspiracies. Unfortunately that says more about the times
        > we live in, I think, than any lack of rationality on the part of
        > contributors.
        >
        > With regard to the similarity to the ideas of David Duke and Adolph
        > Hitler, point taken, it is true. The difficulty is that what we are
        > discussing are the flagrant racist and terrorist policies being
        > adopted by the zionist entity, the state of Israel.
        >
        > Of course Hitler was wrong to conclude that the reason for the
        > inequity faced by ordinary Germans in the 1930s was the fault of the
        > Jews. People who have Jewish blood running through their veins are
        > not essentially different from you and I in any way whatsoever. So
        > it was completely irrational (not to say immoral) to select for the
        > innmates of Auschwitz and Belsen those people who were believed to be
        > of Jewish blood.
        >
        > This does not necessarily invalidate some of the arguments supporting
        > the premises upon which this racist creed was constructed. In other
        > words, Germany in the 20s and 30s was indeed the unfortunate victim
        > of a zionist conspiracy.
        >
        > It is for very good reasons that we agree to deprecate racism as a
        > criteria for judging whether another human being is a friend or an
        > enemy. Such thinking leads to disaster for the human race and
        > civilisation on a far more serious scale than conflict based on other
        > criteria.
        >
        > Unfortunately this self-same error was perpetuated in the aftermath
        > of the Second World War and especially in 1948 with the creation of a
        > state which has racism written into its constitution. In a move which
        > almost belies belief (and to a certain extent mitigates the racist
        > rhetoric of Hitler in the 30s) the Allied Powers connived in the
        > creation and maintenance of a state which bases its immigration
        > policy on the criterion of whether the applicant has Jewish blood
        > running through his or her veins. There is absolutely no justication
        > or precedent for this in the modern world and we should all agree
        > that Israel as it stands has no more right to exist in the modern
        > world than apartheid South Africa had.
        >
        > Until this is agreed by the international community and Israel is
        > reconstitued to give equal rights of citizenship to all of its
        > residents there can be no peace in the land of Palestine and we
        > should celebrate the heroism of Palestinian suicide bombers in their
        > valiant attempts to obtain justice in the face of overwhelming
        > oppressive force.
        >
        > It may also be that partitioning the land of Palestine to give a
        > state to Palestinians with a viable economy and borders it can defend
        > against its Israeli neighbours will be a necessary step to ensure
        > that peace becomes possible.
        >
        > Tommy Beavitt
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > _________________________________________________________________
        > Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
        > http://www.hotmail.com
        >
        >
        >
        > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
        > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
        >
        > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
        > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >


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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • james tan
        but if we give war a chance, does this (m-e conflict) then become a military) might issue, and not a moral issue? james. From: Christopher Bobo
        Message 3 of 16 , Apr 10, 2002
          but if we give war a chance, does this (m-e conflict) then become a
          military) might issue, and not a moral issue?

          james.


          From: "Christopher Bobo" <cbobo@...>
          Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
          To: "Wisdom Forum" <WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com>
          Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew
          Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 16:43:20 -0700

          To me this sounds like another argument to give war a chance, to let it run
          it's course until one side is victorious and the other is vanquished.

          Of course, this whole thing with the land is ambiguous too. When the Jews
          were moving to the area before and after World War II, they were not taking
          land by force--they were buying it. Then when the British pulled out and
          the U.N. voted for partition, the Palestinians rejected that settlement that
          involved two states. Many Palestinians simply abandoned their land and fled
          to Arab countries like Lebanon and Jordan, no doubt thinking they could
          return when the Arabs beat the Israelis in war. Of course, the problem was
          that the Israelis won the war, so they took all that abandoned land. The
          Israelis did not expell any Palestinians and those who stayed kept their
          property. As time went on, the Israeli Jews bought more Palestinian
          property and arguably bull-dozed the homes of some suspected terrorists.
          Truthfully, I don't think I ever heard tell of the Israeli's taking land by
          force.

          At some point, the Palestinians who fled decided that they wanted to return
          to the property they had abandoned to begin with. Of course, the problem
          with that is by then the property had been taken over by Israeli
          settlers--and why not, it had been abandoned since the late 40s.

          Am I wrong about this? The story Terence tells seem to only have a loose
          connection with the facts and to blithely skip over some important
          distinctions.

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Sayf Uddeen Fariis @ Terence Kenneth John Nunis
          Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 4:03 PM
          To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew

          suicide bombing does not resolve conflicts, it only worsen it.


          Tell that to someone who has to ive in Palestine. How would you feel if
          someone came up to you and said that the land you lived in for hundreds of
          years is not your but belonged to them 2,00 years ago. The then proceed to
          take it by force. The courts just give condemnation but the neighbours
          don't do anything. The fellas in the next neighbourhood arm him and take
          away your weapons?

          We can talk all we want and condemn and give every reason from the allegedly
          Biblical to philosophical. It is typical human hubris to assume that we can
          emphatise with everything even though we don't have all the facts. There
          has to be a reason why people would celebrate sending their sons and
          daughters to die.

          Isn't one man's terrorist, another's freedom figghter? Bush, Powell,
          Sharon, Arafat, Hussein, Saddam and every body will have their say but it's
          never going to stop the Palestinian issue. Some advocate statehood. Others
          advocate the immediate destruction of the State of Israel. Not just some
          Muslims but some Jews. And everybody's got a reason.

          The entire international community is to blame in some degree or other for
          the current state of events. And to think it all started with Theodore
          Herzl's vision.

          Terence Nunis
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: james tan
          To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 2:12 AM
          Subject: [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew



          am not sure if talking about neo-nazism and jewish conspiracies could be
          considered as a degeneration; after all, such beliefs, if held by people no
          matter how irrational, could produce actions which are unwise. and though i
          could understand ur attempt to empathize with the palestinians (same here),
          to say that we should celebrate the 'heroism' of sucide bombers is too hot a
          tea to swallow, at least for me. just because a man has a sad history is no
          reason for us to condone his murderous activity for revenge, let alone to
          celebrate it. a better way can be worked out, but to condone an eye for an
          eye seems maladative in the long run (what does it achieve really). suicide
          bombing does not resolve conflicts, it only worsen it.

          james.


          From: Tommy Beavitt <tommy@...>
          Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
          To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew
          Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 12:40:26 +0100

          I am sorry that this forum has degenerated into stuff about neo-nazis
          and Jewish conspiracies. Unfortunately that says more about the times
          we live in, I think, than any lack of rationality on the part of
          contributors.

          With regard to the similarity to the ideas of David Duke and Adolph
          Hitler, point taken, it is true. The difficulty is that what we are
          discussing are the flagrant racist and terrorist policies being
          adopted by the zionist entity, the state of Israel.

          Of course Hitler was wrong to conclude that the reason for the
          inequity faced by ordinary Germans in the 1930s was the fault of the
          Jews. People who have Jewish blood running through their veins are
          not essentially different from you and I in any way whatsoever. So
          it was completely irrational (not to say immoral) to select for the
          innmates of Auschwitz and Belsen those people who were believed to be
          of Jewish blood.

          This does not necessarily invalidate some of the arguments supporting
          the premises upon which this racist creed was constructed. In other
          words, Germany in the 20s and 30s was indeed the unfortunate victim
          of a zionist conspiracy.

          It is for very good reasons that we agree to deprecate racism as a
          criteria for judging whether another human being is a friend or an
          enemy. Such thinking leads to disaster for the human race and
          civilisation on a far more serious scale than conflict based on other
          criteria.

          Unfortunately this self-same error was perpetuated in the aftermath
          of the Second World War and especially in 1948 with the creation of a
          state which has racism written into its constitution. In a move which
          almost belies belief (and to a certain extent mitigates the racist
          rhetoric of Hitler in the 30s) the Allied Powers connived in the
          creation and maintenance of a state which bases its immigration
          policy on the criterion of whether the applicant has Jewish blood
          running through his or her veins. There is absolutely no justication
          or precedent for this in the modern world and we should all agree
          that Israel as it stands has no more right to exist in the modern
          world than apartheid South Africa had.

          Until this is agreed by the international community and Israel is
          reconstitued to give equal rights of citizenship to all of its
          residents there can be no peace in the land of Palestine and we
          should celebrate the heroism of Palestinian suicide bombers in their
          valiant attempts to obtain justice in the face of overwhelming
          oppressive force.

          It may also be that partitioning the land of Palestine to give a
          state to Palestinians with a viable economy and borders it can defend
          against its Israeli neighbours will be a necessary step to ensure
          that peace becomes possible.

          Tommy Beavitt








          _________________________________________________________________
          Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
        • Eduard Alf
          james, Give what war a chance. Sure, it is nice to think that it is simply something over there and wait to see who comes out of the dust cloud. But the
          Message 4 of 16 , Apr 10, 2002
            james,

            Give what "war" a chance. Sure, it is nice to think that it is simply
            something over there and wait to see who comes out of the dust cloud. But
            the entire region is linked by alliances. It is very apparent that the
            Israelis will have the upper hand, but what happens when the it looks
            certain that the Palestinians will be eliminated? The Arab League will not
            stand by. And if they move in, then the US will follow and we will shortly
            have something significant that is not just limited to being over there.

            Christopher is correct in pointing out that the Palestinians left their land
            voluntarily. That was at the request of the then Arab League to have a
            free-fire zone. So you now have 3 million Palestinians in the occupied
            territories and another 3 million outside trying to get in. There is no
            easy solution to this, but the first step has to be a ceasing of the present
            conflict.

            There are a lot of mistakes in this. It is probably the case that Bush gave
            Sharon the green light and now things better of it. But pointing fingers is
            not the way to a solution.

            eduard
            -----Original Message-----
            From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
            Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 9:40 PM
            To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [existlist] Antisemite and Jew



            but if we give war a chance, does this (m-e conflict) then become a
            military) might issue, and not a moral issue?

            james.


            From: "Christopher Bobo" <cbobo@...>
            Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
            To: "Wisdom Forum" <WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com>
            Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew
            Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 16:43:20 -0700

            To me this sounds like another argument to give war a chance, to let it
            run
            it's course until one side is victorious and the other is vanquished.

            Of course, this whole thing with the land is ambiguous too. When the Jews
            were moving to the area before and after World War II, they were not
            taking
            land by force--they were buying it. Then when the British pulled out and
            the U.N. voted for partition, the Palestinians rejected that settlement
            that
            involved two states. Many Palestinians simply abandoned their land and
            fled
            to Arab countries like Lebanon and Jordan, no doubt thinking they could
            return when the Arabs beat the Israelis in war. Of course, the problem
            was
            that the Israelis won the war, so they took all that abandoned land. The
            Israelis did not expell any Palestinians and those who stayed kept their
            property. As time went on, the Israeli Jews bought more Palestinian
            property and arguably bull-dozed the homes of some suspected terrorists.
            Truthfully, I don't think I ever heard tell of the Israeli's taking land
            by
            force.

            At some point, the Palestinians who fled decided that they wanted to
            return
            to the property they had abandoned to begin with. Of course, the problem
            with that is by then the property had been taken over by Israeli
            settlers--and why not, it had been abandoned since the late 40s.

            Am I wrong about this? The story Terence tells seem to only have a loose
            connection with the facts and to blithely skip over some important
            distinctions.


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • james tan
            i am not exactly clear about the political constitution of israel, whether palestinians have a right to vote. i suppose if palestinians have equal right with
            Message 5 of 16 , Apr 10, 2002
              i am not exactly clear about the political constitution of israel, whether
              palestinians have a right to vote. i suppose if palestinians have equal
              right with the israelis, they can play the number game, the one u suggested.
              but i doubt (actually i am not sure) the palestinians' right to vote is
              provided by the israeli constitution, and if that is the case, i dont think
              a bigger population is a match for the israeli militarily anyway. the ideal
              solution is to have two separate states, i think.

              james.


              From: "John Taft" <J-Taft@...>
              Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: Re: [existlist] Antisemite and Jew
              Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 15:06:03 -0700

              James,

              Here's another approach

              The population growth rate in Palestine is 6%. The growth rate of Jewish
              Israel is 2.6% and I think, in last night's news, the growth rate of
              Palestinians that are Israelis citizens is 3.5 or something like that.

              We all know the results such an imbalance will produce ala Darwin (actually
              just simple arithmetic.)

              So, over time it is not necessary for the Palestinians to do anything more
              than keep up the numbers game and the Israeli democracy will be overrun from
              within if not swamped from outside.

              Tell me why I am wrong?

              John
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "james tan" <tyjfk@...>
              To: <WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 11:12 AM
              Subject: [existlist] Antisemite and Jew


              >
              > am not sure if talking about neo-nazism and jewish conspiracies could be
              > considered as a degeneration; after all, such beliefs, if held by people
              no
              > matter how irrational, could produce actions which are unwise. and though
              i
              > could understand ur attempt to empathize with the palestinians (same
              here),
              > to say that we should celebrate the 'heroism' of sucide bombers is too
              hot
              a
              > tea to swallow, at least for me. just because a man has a sad history is
              no
              > reason for us to condone his murderous activity for revenge, let alone to
              > celebrate it. a better way can be worked out, but to condone an eye for
              an
              > eye seems maladative in the long run (what does it achieve really).
              suicide
              > bombing does not resolve conflicts, it only worsen it.
              >
              > james.
              >
              >
              > From: Tommy Beavitt <tommy@...>
              > Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
              > To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew
              > Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 12:40:26 +0100
              >
              > I am sorry that this forum has degenerated into stuff about neo-nazis
              > and Jewish conspiracies. Unfortunately that says more about the times
              > we live in, I think, than any lack of rationality on the part of
              > contributors.
              >
              > With regard to the similarity to the ideas of David Duke and Adolph
              > Hitler, point taken, it is true. The difficulty is that what we are
              > discussing are the flagrant racist and terrorist policies being
              > adopted by the zionist entity, the state of Israel.
              >
              > Of course Hitler was wrong to conclude that the reason for the
              > inequity faced by ordinary Germans in the 1930s was the fault of the
              > Jews. People who have Jewish blood running through their veins are
              > not essentially different from you and I in any way whatsoever. So
              > it was completely irrational (not to say immoral) to select for the
              > innmates of Auschwitz and Belsen those people who were believed to be
              > of Jewish blood.
              >
              > This does not necessarily invalidate some of the arguments supporting
              > the premises upon which this racist creed was constructed. In other
              > words, Germany in the 20s and 30s was indeed the unfortunate victim
              > of a zionist conspiracy.
              >
              > It is for very good reasons that we agree to deprecate racism as a
              > criteria for judging whether another human being is a friend or an
              > enemy. Such thinking leads to disaster for the human race and
              > civilisation on a far more serious scale than conflict based on other
              > criteria.
              >
              > Unfortunately this self-same error was perpetuated in the aftermath
              > of the Second World War and especially in 1948 with the creation of a
              > state which has racism written into its constitution. In a move which
              > almost belies belief (and to a certain extent mitigates the racist
              > rhetoric of Hitler in the 30s) the Allied Powers connived in the
              > creation and maintenance of a state which bases its immigration
              > policy on the criterion of whether the applicant has Jewish blood
              > running through his or her veins. There is absolutely no justication
              > or precedent for this in the modern world and we should all agree
              > that Israel as it stands has no more right to exist in the modern
              > world than apartheid South Africa had.
              >
              > Until this is agreed by the international community and Israel is
              > reconstitued to give equal rights of citizenship to all of its
              > residents there can be no peace in the land of Palestine and we
              > should celebrate the heroism of Palestinian suicide bombers in their
              > valiant attempts to obtain justice in the face of overwhelming
              > oppressive force.
              >
              > It may also be that partitioning the land of Palestine to give a
              > state to Palestinians with a viable economy and borders it can defend
              > against its Israeli neighbours will be a necessary step to ensure
              > that peace becomes possible.
              >
              > Tommy Beavitt
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
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            • John Taft
              James, I don t know either, but I believed that Arabs may become Israeli citizens, maybe somebody else knows the truth? The second point is that no matter,
              Message 6 of 16 , Apr 10, 2002
                James,

                I don't know either, but I believed that Arabs may become Israeli citizens,
                maybe somebody else knows the truth?

                The second point is that no matter, within the country, just the Palestinian
                birth rate will overcome the area in several generations. If the long term
                scenerio for obliteration is in the mind of Arafat, he doesn't want to
                recognize the right for Israel to exist as that is what his legacy will be.
                Perhaps he is a tired old man concerned just for his memory?

                In this country (USA), races and religions have mixed, though not without
                much difficulty. Hopefully, that's what will happen, yet I have a concern
                that religious prejudices may be too long lived. What appears to have
                happened in Ireland is a miracle!


                John

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "james tan" <tyjfk@...>
                To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 7:15 PM
                Subject: Re: [existlist] Antisemite and Jew


                >
                > i am not exactly clear about the political constitution of israel, whether
                > palestinians have a right to vote. i suppose if palestinians have equal
                > right with the israelis, they can play the number game, the one u
                suggested.
                > but i doubt (actually i am not sure) the palestinians' right to vote is
                > provided by the israeli constitution, and if that is the case, i dont
                think
                > a bigger population is a match for the israeli militarily anyway. the
                ideal
                > solution is to have two separate states, i think.
                >
                > james.
                >
                >
                > From: "John Taft" <J-Taft@...>
                > Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                > Subject: Re: [existlist] Antisemite and Jew
                > Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 15:06:03 -0700
                >
                > James,
                >
                > Here's another approach
                >
                > The population growth rate in Palestine is 6%. The growth rate of Jewish
                > Israel is 2.6% and I think, in last night's news, the growth rate of
                > Palestinians that are Israelis citizens is 3.5 or something like that.
                >
                > We all know the results such an imbalance will produce ala Darwin
                (actually
                > just simple arithmetic.)
                >
                > So, over time it is not necessary for the Palestinians to do anything more
                > than keep up the numbers game and the Israeli democracy will be overrun
                from
                > within if not swamped from outside.
                >
                > Tell me why I am wrong?
                >
                > John
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "james tan" <tyjfk@...>
                > To: <WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 11:12 AM
                > Subject: [existlist] Antisemite and Jew
                >
                >
                > >
                > > am not sure if talking about neo-nazism and jewish conspiracies could
                be
                > > considered as a degeneration; after all, such beliefs, if held by
                people
                > no
                > > matter how irrational, could produce actions which are unwise. and
                though
                > i
                > > could understand ur attempt to empathize with the palestinians (same
                > here),
                > > to say that we should celebrate the 'heroism' of sucide bombers is too
                > hot
                > a
                > > tea to swallow, at least for me. just because a man has a sad history
                is
                > no
                > > reason for us to condone his murderous activity for revenge, let alone
                to
                > > celebrate it. a better way can be worked out, but to condone an eye for
                > an
                > > eye seems maladative in the long run (what does it achieve really).
                > suicide
                > > bombing does not resolve conflicts, it only worsen it.
                > >
                > > james.
                > >
                > >
                > > From: Tommy Beavitt <tommy@...>
                > > Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                > > To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                > > Subject: [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew
                > > Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 12:40:26 +0100
                > >
                > > I am sorry that this forum has degenerated into stuff about neo-nazis
                > > and Jewish conspiracies. Unfortunately that says more about the times
                > > we live in, I think, than any lack of rationality on the part of
                > > contributors.
                > >
                > > With regard to the similarity to the ideas of David Duke and Adolph
                > > Hitler, point taken, it is true. The difficulty is that what we are
                > > discussing are the flagrant racist and terrorist policies being
                > > adopted by the zionist entity, the state of Israel.
                > >
                > > Of course Hitler was wrong to conclude that the reason for the
                > > inequity faced by ordinary Germans in the 1930s was the fault of the
                > > Jews. People who have Jewish blood running through their veins are
                > > not essentially different from you and I in any way whatsoever. So
                > > it was completely irrational (not to say immoral) to select for the
                > > innmates of Auschwitz and Belsen those people who were believed to be
                > > of Jewish blood.
                > >
                > > This does not necessarily invalidate some of the arguments supporting
                > > the premises upon which this racist creed was constructed. In other
                > > words, Germany in the 20s and 30s was indeed the unfortunate victim
                > > of a zionist conspiracy.
                > >
                > > It is for very good reasons that we agree to deprecate racism as a
                > > criteria for judging whether another human being is a friend or an
                > > enemy. Such thinking leads to disaster for the human race and
                > > civilisation on a far more serious scale than conflict based on other
                > > criteria.
                > >
                > > Unfortunately this self-same error was perpetuated in the aftermath
                > > of the Second World War and especially in 1948 with the creation of a
                > > state which has racism written into its constitution. In a move which
                > > almost belies belief (and to a certain extent mitigates the racist
                > > rhetoric of Hitler in the 30s) the Allied Powers connived in the
                > > creation and maintenance of a state which bases its immigration
                > > policy on the criterion of whether the applicant has Jewish blood
                > > running through his or her veins. There is absolutely no justication
                > > or precedent for this in the modern world and we should all agree
                > > that Israel as it stands has no more right to exist in the modern
                > > world than apartheid South Africa had.
                > >
                > > Until this is agreed by the international community and Israel is
                > > reconstitued to give equal rights of citizenship to all of its
                > > residents there can be no peace in the land of Palestine and we
                > > should celebrate the heroism of Palestinian suicide bombers in their
                > > valiant attempts to obtain justice in the face of overwhelming
                > > oppressive force.
                > >
                > > It may also be that partitioning the land of Palestine to give a
                > > state to Palestinians with a viable economy and borders it can defend
                > > against its Israeli neighbours will be a necessary step to ensure
                > > that peace becomes possible.
                > >
                > > Tommy Beavitt
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > _________________________________________________________________
                > > Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
                > > http://www.hotmail.com
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
                > > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
                > >
                > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
                > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > >
                > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > _________________________________________________________________
                > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
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                >
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              • james tan
                i think moral idea precede means, and war to me seems to be just a means to enforce ur standpoint. it is not unusual to have weaker country overrun by a
                Message 7 of 16 , Apr 11, 2002
                  i think moral idea precede means, and war to me seems to be just a means to
                  enforce ur standpoint. it is not unusual to have weaker country overrun by a
                  stronger one, and just because the weaker one was militarily defeated does
                  not mean the stronger one has a better moral standpoint. military ability
                  and morality are distinct, they are conceptually different, although
                  sometimes one can serve the other. personally, although i tend to sympathise
                  with the plight of the palesinians, and disapprove of the means of suicide
                  bombing (killing innocent civilians), i tend to see the palestinians do have
                  a moral claim to the land of palestine. but as swm pointed out, countries
                  are formed through historical processes, and it is hard to say the land
                  'really' belongs to who. eg, singapore used to be one of the states of
                  malaysia, but now it is a sovereign nation; australia used to belong to the
                  alborgines, tibet used to be sovereign, but now it is but a province of
                  china, usa used to belong to the red indians, and many parts of china were
                  actually little sovereign kingdoms. so, in my simplistic way, i'd say that
                  the israelis have a right to the land, but morally and sentimentally i do
                  think so do the palestinians. if war is a guiding factor to decide, then i
                  dont see the need of a moral dimension anymore. genhis ghan of the ancient
                  mongolia was not known for his morality (he was actually described as the
                  most cruel man in history, his sadism is something that a dracula's or
                  nazis's atrocity would be considered as child's play), and yet he had
                  procured the largest empire of land the world has ever known through his
                  wars and battles. wars are just means to one's will and idea. knife is just
                  a means to some purpose of man, and knife per se cannot determine whether
                  the purpose is moral or not. this is just my common sense idea, with no
                  basis in kant or other philosophy. any criticism.

                  james.


                  From: "Christopher Bobo" <cbobo@...>
                  Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                  To: "Wisdom Forum" <WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com>
                  Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew
                  Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 19:34:18 -0700

                  But philosophers have recognized philosophical justifications for war. Hugo
                  Grotius, Pufendorf and Vattel have all offered philosophical justifications
                  for war. Jean-Paul Sartre also saw war as justified in some circumstances.
                  Karl Popper also saw war as justified in the defense of open societies.
                  The article that I posted by Luttwak offered some philosophical
                  justifications for war. The article that I posted by Luttwak offered some
                  philosophical justifications for war, and it seems especially appropriate in
                  the present circumstances. The questions, I suppose, are whether there can
                  be any legitimate philosophical and moral justifications for war and whether
                  war can be conducted morally. What do you think?

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: james tan
                  Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 6:54 PM
                  To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew


                  but if we give war a chance, does this (m-e conflict) then become a
                  military) might issue, and not a moral issue?

                  james.


                  From: "Christopher Bobo" <cbobo@...>
                  Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                  To: "Wisdom Forum" <WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com>
                  Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew
                  Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 16:43:20 -0700

                  To me this sounds like another argument to give war a chance, to let it run
                  it's course until one side is victorious and the other is vanquished.

                  Of course, this whole thing with the land is ambiguous too. When the Jews
                  were moving to the area before and after World War II, they were not taking
                  land by force--they were buying it. Then when the British pulled out and
                  the U.N. voted for partition, the Palestinians rejected that settlement that
                  involved two states. Many Palestinians simply abandoned their land and fled
                  to Arab countries like Lebanon and Jordan, no doubt thinking they could
                  return when the Arabs beat the Israelis in war. Of course, the problem was
                  that the Israelis won the war, so they took all that abandoned land. The
                  Israelis did not expell any Palestinians and those who stayed kept their
                  property. As time went on, the Israeli Jews bought more Palestinian
                  property and arguably bull-dozed the homes of some suspected terrorists.
                  Truthfully, I don't think I ever heard tell of the Israeli's taking land by
                  force.

                  At some point, the Palestinians who fled decided that they wanted to return
                  to the property they had abandoned to begin with. Of course, the problem
                  with that is by then the property had been taken over by Israeli
                  settlers--and why not, it had been abandoned since the late 40s.

                  Am I wrong about this? The story Terence tells seem to only have a loose
                  connection with the facts and to blithely skip over some important
                  distinctions.

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Sayf Uddeen Fariis @ Terence Kenneth John Nunis
                  Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 4:03 PM
                  To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew

                  suicide bombing does not resolve conflicts, it only worsen it.


                  Tell that to someone who has to ive in Palestine. How would you feel if
                  someone came up to you and said that the land you lived in for hundreds of
                  years is not your but belonged to them 2,00 years ago. The then proceed to
                  take it by force. The courts just give condemnation but the neighbours
                  don't do anything. The fellas in the next neighbourhood arm him and take
                  away your weapons?

                  We can talk all we want and condemn and give every reason from the allegedly
                  Biblical to philosophical. It is typical human hubris to assume that we can
                  emphatise with everything even though we don't have all the facts. There
                  has to be a reason why people would celebrate sending their sons and
                  daughters to die.

                  Isn't one man's terrorist, another's freedom figghter? Bush, Powell,
                  Sharon, Arafat, Hussein, Saddam and every body will have their say but it's
                  never going to stop the Palestinian issue. Some advocate statehood. Others
                  advocate the immediate destruction of the State of Israel. Not just some
                  Muslims but some Jews. And everybody's got a reason.

                  The entire international community is to blame in some degree or other for
                  the current state of events. And to think it all started with Theodore
                  Herzl's vision.

                  Terence Nunis
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: james tan
                  To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 2:12 AM
                  Subject: [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew



                  am not sure if talking about neo-nazism and jewish conspiracies could be
                  considered as a degeneration; after all, such beliefs, if held by people no
                  matter how irrational, could produce actions which are unwise. and though i
                  could understand ur attempt to empathize with the palestinians (same here),
                  to say that we should celebrate the 'heroism' of sucide bombers is too hot a
                  tea to swallow, at least for me. just because a man has a sad history is no
                  reason for us to condone his murderous activity for revenge, let alone to
                  celebrate it. a better way can be worked out, but to condone an eye for an
                  eye seems maladative in the long run (what does it achieve really). suicide
                  bombing does not resolve conflicts, it only worsen it.

                  james.


                  From: Tommy Beavitt <tommy@...>
                  Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                  To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew
                  Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 12:40:26 +0100

                  I am sorry that this forum has degenerated into stuff about neo-nazis
                  and Jewish conspiracies. Unfortunately that says more about the times
                  we live in, I think, than any lack of rationality on the part of
                  contributors.

                  With regard to the similarity to the ideas of David Duke and Adolph
                  Hitler, point taken, it is true. The difficulty is that what we are
                  discussing are the flagrant racist and terrorist policies being
                  adopted by the zionist entity, the state of Israel.

                  Of course Hitler was wrong to conclude that the reason for the
                  inequity faced by ordinary Germans in the 1930s was the fault of the
                  Jews. People who have Jewish blood running through their veins are
                  not essentially different from you and I in any way whatsoever. So
                  it was completely irrational (not people who were believed to be
                  of Jewish blood.

                  This does not necessarily invalidate some of the arguments supporting
                  the premises upon which this racist creed was constructed. In other
                  words, Germany in the 20s and 30s was indeed the unfortunate to say immoral)
                  to select for the
                  innmates of Auschwitz and Belsen those victim
                  of a zionist conspiracy.

                  It is for very good reasons that we agree to deprecate racism as a
                  criteria for judging whether another human being is a friend or an
                  enemy. Such thinking leads to disaster for the human race and
                  civilisation on a far more serious scale than conflict based on other
                  criteria.

                  Unfortunately this self-same error was perpetuated in the aftermath
                  of the Second World War and especially in 1948 with the creation of a
                  state which has racism written into its constitution. In a move which
                  almost belies belief (and to a certain extent mitigates the racist
                  rhetoric of Hitler in the 30s) the Allied Powers connived in the
                  creation and maintenance of a state which bases its immigration
                  policy on the criterion of whether the applicant has Jewish blood
                  running through his or her veins. There is absolutely no justication
                  or precedent for this in the modern world and we should all agree
                  that Israel as it stands has no more right to exist in the modern
                  world than apartheid South Africa had.

                  Until this is agreed by the international community and Israel is
                  reconstitued to give equal rights of citizenship to all of its
                  residents there can be no peace in the land of Palestine and we
                  should celebrate the heroism of Palestinian suicide bombers in their
                  valiant attempts to obtain justice in the face of overwhelming
                  oppressive force.

                  It may also be that partitioning the land of Palestine to give a
                  state to Palestinians with a viable economy and borders it can defend
                  against its Israeli neighbours will be a necessary step to ensure
                  that peace becomes possible.

                  Tommy Beavitt








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                • james tan
                  From: Sayf Uddeen Fariis @ Terence Kenneth John Nunis Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com To:
                  Message 8 of 16 , Apr 11, 2002
                    From: "Sayf Uddeen Fariis @ Terence Kenneth John Nunis"
                    <terence_nunis@...>
                    Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                    To: <WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com>
                    Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew
                    Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 03:15:50 +0800

                    Chris,

                    I think it is right to say that not all Israelis are to blame. The first
                    and second aliyas were very surprised to discover that Palestine was not a
                    desert country as people like Baron Rothschild had led them to beleive.
                    They were Ashkenazi Jews fleeing persecution in Romania and Russia. They
                    were poor and they were desperate.

                    Even now in Israel, there are many sectors of the population who deplore the
                    Occupation and seek peace with the Arabs. Many of them were born there and
                    they can't simply be kicked out. It is unfair to blame the children for the
                    sins of the fathers.

                    Most of the problems are started by the newer settlers who build their
                    settlements on relatively recently seized land. Many of the far-rightist
                    from the United States (mostly). Their aggression in the face of the
                    complicity of the Israeli government have provoked a people to lash out in
                    retaliation in the only way they know - terrorism, specifically,
                    suicide-bombing.

                    It is unfortunate that suicide bombing cannot differentiate between the
                    innocent and the guilty, the young and the old. It is ironic that Israel is
                    now the target of the very form of terrorism practiced to found it by groups
                    like the Stern Gang and the Irgun. History repeats itself. And those who
                    do not learn the lessons of the past and apply it to the present are bound
                    to repeat it in the future.

                    They wrote in the old days that it is sweet and fitting to die for one's
                    country. But in modern war, there is nothing sweet nor fitting in your
                    dying. You will die like a dog for no good reason.

                    Ernest Hemmingway


                    Terence Nunis
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Christopher Bobo
                    To: Wisdom Forum
                    Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 1:54 AM
                    Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew


                    Terence,

                    That was very helpful and I appreciate your efforts to educate me on this
                    subject. You appear to have studied this matter extensively. Truly, the
                    first step toward wisdom is getting the facts right, so your assistance is
                    invaluable.

                    I do, note, however, that you seem to fault all Israelis with the acts of
                    Jewish terrorist and extremist groups. Clearly, the deliberate killing of
                    civilians is just wrong and cannot be tolerated by any civilized standard.
                    Even the rules of war prohibit the unnecessary killing of civilians. You
                    point to the role of Menachin Begin, but he apparently later repented his
                    hardline stance and sought to make peace witht he Palestinians. Surely, we
                    must allow that people can change and repent of their past misdeeds and try
                    to make amends for them. What's more, we cannot carry a grievance forever.
                    At some point, I think the pas! t must be set aside and people agree to go
                    into the future based upon some accomodation that can be made in the
                    present. Don't you agree?

                    Whether you agree or not, thank you for your contribution. It's truly a
                    pleasure to hear from one as knowledgeable as yourself on a matter of such
                    urgent importance. And to conclude with a final philosophical afterthought,
                    so to speak, although I have been suggesting that this may be a time where
                    the only recourse for rational parties is resort to war, I am reminded of
                    the Kant's words against the possibility for a rational justification for
                    war as an oxymoron, when he said "But the homage which each state pays (at
                    least in words) to the concept of law proves that there is slumbering in man
                    an even greater moral disposition to become master of the evil principle in
                    himself (which he cannot disclaim) and to hope for the same from others."
                    Perhpas that slumbering moral disposition to! a perpetual peace will
                    eventually show itself among the participants in the Middle East conflict
                    and the rest of us can give up our worrying and concern.

                    With many thanks,
                    Chris

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Sayf Uddeen Fariis @ Terence Kenneth John Nunis
                    Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 4:46 AM
                    To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew

                    Somehow I see it differently.

                    That the Jews started by buying land is true. The Ottoman Land Code of
                    1858. It was a sneaky way for the corrupt powers that be to benefit at the
                    expense of the peasantry. The Palestinian farmers owned the land for
                    centuries under the traditional form of lad tenure known as the masha'a, or
                    communal usufruct. The implications of the Land Code was that the peasnats
                    could be deprived legally of the right to live and cultivate his land,
                    somethingt previously inalienable.

                    The 1858 legislation required the peasants to register their ownership.
                    Something that illiterate peasants weren't as good at as the rich
                    lasndowners who pushed it through. ! These people registered the land as
                    theirs and sold it to the Jewish Agency, who were a party to this injustice.

                    No prizes for guessing what happened when Zionist Jews (not Jews, there
                    is a distinction), came to seize 'their' land. And that's how they got
                    their land in the beginning. to say that the Jews bought it is just a small
                    part of the story. How they bought it is more important.

                    The United Nations General Assembly did not have that right in their
                    constitution to vote for the partition of Palestine. That's something
                    conveniently forgotten. In the same vein the British had no right to issue
                    the Balfour Declaration of 1917. To take away a land you did not own to
                    give to a p! eople who did not own it save from some vague Biblical
                    reference to a Semitic race and fudging over other aspects of the covenent
                    between Moses and God which I can go into excruciating detail over. Detaiks
                    like the origins of the Ashkenazi as opposed to the Shephardim. How can the
                    Jews today claim to be the Jews of the Bible when they are not for the most
                    part the descendents of the people thrown out by Titus in 67 AD? They are
                    mostly the remmants of the Khazari.

                    The King-Crane Commisiion was despatched at the end of WWII by Woodrow
                    Wilson to assess the claims of the Zionists, the Arabs, the French and the
                    British. Here are some intersting findings of that commission: -
                    1.. 90% of the inhabitants of Palestine were non-Jewish and opposed
                    the formation of! a Jewsish State.
                    2.. If given Palestine, the 'Zionists looked forward to practically
                    complete disposession of the present non-Jewish inhabitants'.
                    3.. The King-Crane Comission stated that the proposed Jewish state
                    would violate the Palestinian right to self-determination. They recommended
                    that the Zionists respect Palestinian wishes and find somewhere else.
                    When Chiam Weizman, President of the World Zionist Congres declared
                    Palestine as 'a country without a people for a people without a country', it
                    was a manifest lie and he was aware of it.

                    The Arab-Israeli Wars were always a case of David versus Goliath but
                    the 'David' in questi! on were the Arabs. The Palestinians did not abandon
                    their land. Incidents like Deir Yassin in April, 1948, forced them to flee
                    in terror. Do you know what happened in deir Yassin? While the yopung men
                    worked in the fields, 254 geriartics, womern and children, including babies,
                    were butchered and thrown down the village wells. They dynamited the
                    houses, looted and rpaed amongst other noble deeds for the 'return of
                    Israel'. The leadership of the Irgun command, the perpetrators proclaimed,
                    'as in deir Yassin, so everywhere'. Do you know who led the massacre? He
                    was Menachem Begin, twice-elected Premier.

                    I have a whole catalogue of incidents from my modest research. From
                    extracts of the de-classified CIA reports to a few historical records and
                    quotes from the leaders of the early Zionist movemen! t. I wanted to find
                    out the truth. Having worked in the government before, I neve trusted
                    official news agencies. You want to find something out, you search for it
                    yourself. Sometimes, along the way, the truth is so startling you change
                    your entire world view. That is traumatic.

                    One of the interesting things I learned is that contrary to what most
                    people believe, there are a lot of Jews who opposed and still oppose the
                    existence of Israel for varied reasons. The more religious because it is
                    stated in their Scriptures that the State of Israel will not be founded
                    again until the return of the Messiah. The non-Zionist Jews that speak out
                    too much tend to be killed, or defamed or done in by any appropriate
                    measures.

                    I hope this was helpful. It is entirely your right to digress or
                    otherwise.

                    Terence Nunis
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Christopher Bobo
                    To: Wisdom Forum
                    Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 7:43 AM
                    Subject: Re:! [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew


                    To me this sounds like another argument to give war a chance, to let
                    it run it's course until one side is victorious and the other is vanquished.

                    Of course, this whole thing with the land is ambiguous too. When the
                    Jews were moving to the area before and after World War II, they were not
                    taking land by force--they were buying it. Then when the British pulled out
                    and the U.N. voted for partition, the Palestinians rejected that settlement
                    that involved two states. Many Palestinians simply abandoned their land and
                    fled to Arab countries like Lebanon and Jordan, no doubt thinking they could
                    return when the Arabs beat the Israelis in war. Of course, the problem was
                    that the Israelis won the war, so they took all that abandoned land. The
                    Israelis did not expell any Palestinians and those who stayed ke! pt their
                    property. As time went on, the Israeli Jews bought more Palestinian
                    property and arguably bull-do! zed the homes of some suspected terrorists.
                    Truthfully, I don't think I ever heard tell of the Israeli's taking land by
                    force.

                    At some point, the Palestinians who fled decided that they wanted to
                    return to the property they had abandoned to begin with. Of course, the
                    problem with that is by then the property had been taken over by Israeli
                    settlers--and why not, it had been abandoned since the late 40s.

                    Am I wrong about this? The story Terence tells seem to only have a
                    loose connection with the facts and to blithely skip over some important
                    distinctions.

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Sayf Uddeen Fariis @ Terence Kenneth John Nu! nis
                    Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 4:03 PM
                    To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew

                    suicide bombing does not resolve conflicts, it only worsen it.


                    Tell that to someone who has to ive in Palestine. How would you
                    feel if someone came up to you and! said that the land you lived in for
                    hundreds of years is not your but belonged to them 2,00 years ago. The then
                    proceed to take it by force. The courts just give condemnation but the
                    neighbours d! on't do anything. The fellas in the next neighbourhood arm
                    him and take away your weapons?

                    We can talk all we want and condemn and give every reason from the
                    allegedly Biblical to philosophical. It is typical human hubris to assume
                    that we can emphatise with everything even though we don't have all the
                    facts. There has to be a reason why people would celebrate sending their
                    sons and daughters to die.

                    Isn't one man's terrorist, another's freedom figghter? Bush,
                    Powell, Sharon, Arafat, Hussein, ! Saddam and every body will have their say
                    but it's never going to stop the Palestinian issue. Some advocate
                    statehood. Others advocate the immediate destruction of the State of
                    Israel. Not jus! t some Muslims but some Jews. And everybody's got a
                    reason.

                    The entire international community is to blame in some degree or
                    other for the current state of events. And to think it all started with
                    Theodore Herzl's vision.

                    Terence Nunis
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: james tan
                    To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 2:12 AM
                    Subject: [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew



                    am not sure if talking about neo-nazism and jewish conspiracies
                    could be
                    considered as a degeneration; after all, such beliefs, if held by
                    people no
                    matter how irrational, could produce actions which are unwise.
                    and though i
                    could understand ur attempt to empathize with the palestinians
                    (same here),
                    to say that we should celebrate the 'heroism' of sucide bombers
                    is too hot a
                    tea to swallow, at least for me. just becaus! e a man has a sad
                    history is no
                    reason for us to condone his murderous activity for revenge, let
                    alone to
                    celebrate it. a better way can be worked out, but to condone an
                    eye for an
                    eye seems maladative! in the long run (what does it achieve
                    really). suicide
                    bombing does not resolve conflicts, it only worsen it.

                    james.


                    From: Tommy Beavitt <tommy@...>
                    Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                    To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew
                    Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 12:40:26 +0100

                    I am sorry that this forum has degenerated into stuff about
                    neo-nazis
                    and Jewish conspiracies. Unfortunately that says more about the
                    times
                    we live in, I think, than any lack of rationality on the part of
                    contributors.

                    With regard to the similarity to the ideas of Da! vid Duke and
                    Adolph
                    Hitler, point taken, it is true. The difficulty is that what we
                    are
                    discussing are the flagrant racist and terrorist policies being
                    adopted by the zionist entity, the state of Israel.
                    Of course Hitler was wrong to conclude that the reason for the
                    inequity faced by ordinary Germans in the 1930s was the fault of
                    the
                    Jews. People who have Jewish blood running through their veins
                    are
                    not essentially different from you and I in any way whatsoever.
                    So
                    it was completely irrational (not to say immoral) to select for
                    the
                    innmates of Auschwitz and Belsen those people who were believed
                    to be
                    of Jewish blood.

                    This does not necessarily invalidate some of the arguments
                    supporting
                    the premises upon which this racist creed was constructed. In
                    other
                    words, Germany in the 20s and 30s was indeed the unfortunate
                    victim
                    of a zionist conspiracy.

                    It is for very good reasons that we agree to deprecate racism as
                    acriteria for judging whether another human being is a friend or an
                    enemy. Such thinking leads to disaster for the human race and
                    civilisation on a far more serious scale than conflict based on
                    other
                    criter! ia.

                    Unfortunately this self-same error was perpetuated in the
                    aftermath
                    of the Second World War and especially in 1948 with the creation
                    of a
                    state which has racism written into its constitution. In a move
                    which
                    almost belies belief (and to a certain extent mitigates the
                    racist
                    rhetoric of Hitler in the 30s) the Allied Powers connived in the
                    creation and maintenance of a state which bases its immigration
                    policy on the criterion of whether the applicant has Jewish blood
                    running through his or her veins. There is absolutely no
                    justication
                    or precedent for this in the modern world and we should all agree
                    that Israel as it stands has no more right to exist in the modern
                    world than apartheid South Africa had.

                    Until this is! agreed by the international community and Israel
                    is
                    reconstitued to give equal rights of citizenship to all of its
                    residents there can be no peace in the land of Palestine and we
                    should celebrate the heroism ! of Palestinian suicide bombers in
                    their
                    valiant attempts to obtain justice in the face of overwhelming
                    oppressive force.

                    It may also be that partitioning the land of Palestine to give a
                    state to Palestinians with a viable economy and borders it can
                    defend
                    against its Israeli neighbours will be a necessary step to ensure
                    that peace becomes possible.

                    Tommy Beavitt


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                  • Eduard Alf
                    james, War is always a moral endeavour. Morals are simply the rules by which you decide to conduct yourself. It is only after the war is finished that the
                    Message 9 of 16 , Apr 11, 2002
                      james,

                      War is always a moral endeavour. Morals are simply the rules by which you
                      decide to conduct yourself. It is only after the war is finished that the
                      correctness of the moral is determined absolutely. Of course, it is the
                      winner who makes the determination. War in simplicity, is a means by which
                      you get what you want, when the opposition does not wish to give it to you
                      directly.

                      eduard
                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
                      Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 11:38 PM
                      To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [existlist] Antisemite and Jew



                      i think moral idea precede means, and war to me seems to be just a means
                      to
                      enforce ur standpoint. it is not unusual to have weaker country overrun by
                      a
                      stronger one, and just because the weaker one was militarily defeated does
                      not mean the stronger one has a better moral standpoint. military ability
                      and morality are distinct, they are conceptually different, although
                      sometimes one can serve the other. personally, although i tend to
                      sympathise
                      with the plight of the palesinians, and disapprove of the means of suicide
                      bombing (killing innocent civilians), i tend to see the palestinians do
                      have
                      a moral claim to the land of palestine. but as swm pointed out, countries
                      are formed through historical processes, and it is hard to say the land
                      'really' belongs to who. eg, singapore used to be one of the states of
                      malaysia, but now it is a sovereign nation; australia used to belong to
                      the
                      alborgines, tibet used to be sovereign, but now it is but a province of
                      china, usa used to belong to the red indians, and many parts of china were
                      actually little sovereign kingdoms. so, in my simplistic way, i'd say that
                      the israelis have a right to the land, but morally and sentimentally i do
                      think so do the palestinians. if war is a guiding factor to decide, then i
                      dont see the need of a moral dimension anymore. genhis ghan of the ancient
                      mongolia was not known for his morality (he was actually described as the
                      most cruel man in history, his sadism is something that a dracula's or
                      nazis's atrocity would be considered as child's play), and yet he had
                      procured the largest empire of land the world has ever known through his
                      wars and battles. wars are just means to one's will and idea. knife is
                      just
                      a means to some purpose of man, and knife per se cannot determine whether
                      the purpose is moral or not. this is just my common sense idea, with no
                      basis in kant or other philosophy. any criticism.

                      james.


                      From: "Christopher Bobo" <cbobo@...>
                      Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                      To: "Wisdom Forum" <WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com>
                      Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew
                      Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 19:34:18 -0700

                      But philosophers have recognized philosophical justifications for war.
                      Hugo
                      Grotius, Pufendorf and Vattel have all offered philosophical
                      justifications
                      for war. Jean-Paul Sartre also saw war as justified in some
                      circumstances.
                      Karl Popper also saw war as justified in the defense of open societies.
                      The article that I posted by Luttwak offered some philosophical
                      justifications for war. The article that I posted by Luttwak offered some
                      philosophical justifications for war, and it seems especially appropriate
                      in
                      the present circumstances. The questions, I suppose, are whether there
                      can
                      be any legitimate philosophical and moral justifications for war and
                      whether
                      war can be conducted morally. What do you think?

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: james tan
                      Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 6:54 PM
                      To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew


                      but if we give war a chance, does this (m-e conflict) then become a
                      military) might issue, and not a moral issue?

                      james.


                      From: "Christopher Bobo" <cbobo@...>
                      Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                      To: "Wisdom Forum" <WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com>
                      Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew
                      Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 16:43:20 -0700

                      To me this sounds like another argument to give war a chance, to let it
                      run
                      it's course until one side is victorious and the other is vanquished.

                      Of course, this whole thing with the land is ambiguous too. When the Jews
                      were moving to the area before and after World War II, they were not
                      taking
                      land by force--they were buying it. Then when the British pulled out and
                      the U.N. voted for partition, the Palestinians rejected that settlement
                      that
                      involved two states. Many Palestinians simply abandoned their land and
                      fled
                      to Arab countries like Lebanon and Jordan, no doubt thinking they could
                      return when the Arabs beat the Israelis in war. Of course, the problem
                      was
                      that the Israelis won the war, so they took all that abandoned land. The
                      Israelis did not expell any Palestinians and those who stayed kept their
                      property. As time went on, the Israeli Jews bought more Palestinian
                      property and arguably bull-dozed the homes of some suspected terrorists.
                      Truthfully, I don't think I ever heard tell of the Israeli's taking land
                      by
                      force.

                      At some point, the Palestinians who fled decided that they wanted to
                      return
                      to the property they had abandoned to begin with. Of course, the problem
                      with that is by then the property had been taken over by Israeli
                      settlers--and why not, it had been abandoned since the late 40s.

                      Am I wrong about this? The story Terence tells seem to only have a loose
                      connection with the facts and to blithely skip over some important
                      distinctions.

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Sayf Uddeen Fariis @ Terence Kenneth John Nunis
                      Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 4:03 PM
                      To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew

                      suicide bombing does not resolve conflicts, it only worsen it.


                      Tell that to someone who has to ive in Palestine. How would you feel if
                      someone came up to you and said that the land you lived in for hundreds of
                      years is not your but belonged to them 2,00 years ago. The then proceed
                      to
                      take it by force. The courts just give condemnation but the neighbours
                      don't do anything. The fellas in the next neighbourhood arm him and take
                      away your weapons?

                      We can talk all we want and condemn and give every reason from the
                      allegedly
                      Biblical to philosophical. It is typical human hubris to assume that we
                      can
                      emphatise with everything even though we don't have all the facts. There
                      has to be a reason why people would celebrate sending their sons and
                      daughters to die.

                      Isn't one man's terrorist, another's freedom figghter? Bush, Powell,
                      Sharon, Arafat, Hussein, Saddam and every body will have their say but
                      it's
                      never going to stop the Palestinian issue. Some advocate statehood.
                      Others
                      advocate the immediate destruction of the State of Israel. Not just some
                      Muslims but some Jews. And everybody's got a reason.

                      The entire international community is to blame in some degree or other for
                      the current state of events. And to think it all started with Theodore
                      Herzl's vision.

                      Terence Nunis
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: james tan
                      To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 2:12 AM
                      Subject: [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew



                      am not sure if talking about neo-nazism and jewish conspiracies could be
                      considered as a degeneration; after all, such beliefs, if held by people
                      no
                      matter how irrational, could produce actions which are unwise. and though
                      i
                      could understand ur attempt to empathize with the palestinians (same
                      here),
                      to say that we should celebrate the 'heroism' of sucide bombers is too hot
                      a
                      tea to swallow, at least for me. just because a man has a sad history is
                      no
                      reason for us to condone his murderous activity for revenge, let alone to
                      celebrate it. a better way can be worked out, but to condone an eye for an
                      eye seems maladative in the long run (what does it achieve really).
                      suicide
                      bombing does not resolve conflicts, it only worsen it.

                      james.


                      From: Tommy Beavitt <tommy@...>
                      Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                      To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew
                      Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 12:40:26 +0100

                      I am sorry that this forum has degenerated into stuff about neo-nazis
                      and Jewish conspiracies. Unfortunately that says more about the times
                      we live in, I think, than any lack of rationality on the part of
                      contributors.

                      With regard to the similarity to the ideas of David Duke and Adolph
                      Hitler, point taken, it is true. The difficulty is that what we are
                      discussing are the flagrant racist and terrorist policies being
                      adopted by the zionist entity, the state of Israel.

                      Of course Hitler was wrong to conclude that the reason for the
                      inequity faced by ordinary Germans in the 1930s was the fault of the
                      Jews. People who have Jewish blood running through their veins are
                      not essentially different from you and I in any way whatsoever. So
                      it was completely irrational (not people who were believed to be
                      of Jewish blood.

                      This does not necessarily invalidate some of the arguments supporting
                      the premises upon which this racist creed was constructed. In other
                      words, Germany in the 20s and 30s was indeed the unfortunate to say
                      immoral)
                      to select for the
                      innmates of Auschwitz and Belsen those victim
                      of a zionist conspiracy.

                      It is for very good reasons that we agree to deprecate racism as a
                      criteria for judging whether another human being is a friend or an
                      enemy. Such thinking leads to disaster for the human race and
                      civilisation on a far more serious scale than conflict based on other
                      criteria.

                      Unfortunately this self-same error was perpetuated in the aftermath
                      of the Second World War and especially in 1948 with the creation of a
                      state which has racism written into its constitution. In a move which
                      almost belies belief (and to a certain extent mitigates the racist
                      rhetoric of Hitler in the 30s) the Allied Powers connived in the
                      creation and maintenance of a state which bases its immigration
                      policy on the criterion of whether the applicant has Jewish blood
                      running through his or her veins. There is absolutely no justication
                      or precedent for this in the modern world and we should all agree
                      that Israel as it stands has no more right to exist in the modern
                      world than apartheid South Africa had.

                      Until this is agreed by the international community and Israel is
                      reconstitued to give equal rights of citizenship to all of its
                      residents there can be no peace in the land of Palestine and we
                      should celebrate the heroism of Palestinian suicide bombers in their
                      valiant attempts to obtain justice in the face of overwhelming
                      oppressive force.

                      It may also be that partitioning the land of Palestine to give a
                      state to Palestinians with a viable economy and borders it can defend
                      against its Israeli neighbours will be a necessary step to ensure
                      that peace becomes possible.

                      Tommy Beavitt








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                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Eduard Alf
                      james, The reason why they could write, in the old days, that in war it would be sweet and fitting to die, is because they did not have CNN there to video tape
                      Message 10 of 16 , Apr 11, 2002
                        james,

                        The reason why they could write, in the old days, that in war it would be
                        sweet and fitting to die, is because they did not have CNN there to video
                        tape the thing. The young would be marched off to some military tune and
                        they would be young enough to not have memories of the last conflict. I
                        once bought an old picture of two Canadian soldiers who appeared pleased in
                        their new uniforms prior to heading off to WW1 in Europe. One of my uncles
                        marched off to the war in Europe and in return my father got a nice short
                        government letter saying that he had been killed ... and by the way, here is
                        a neat copper plaque to remember him by. Perhaps if CNN were there, less of
                        the nation's young would be willing to do the marching. The bottom line is
                        that countries tend to embark upon a war because they convince themselves
                        that it will be easy. A good example is the German run at Russian in WW2.
                        It was going to be a piece of cake, and they did not even think to prepare
                        for the coming winter. That is why there are so many Palestinians lost out
                        in 1948. The feeling was that they would leave their property for perhaps a
                        week or so and then move back in when the Israelis were defeated. There is
                        such a thing as reaping the whirlwind.

                        eduard
                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
                        Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 11:43 PM
                        To: Fateha@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [existlist] Antisemite and Jew


                        From: "Sayf Uddeen Fariis @ Terence Kenneth John Nunis"
                        <terence_nunis@...>
                        Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                        To: <WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com>
                        Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew
                        Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 03:15:50 +0800

                        Chris,

                        I think it is right to say that not all Israelis are to blame. The first
                        and second aliyas were very surprised to discover that Palestine was not a
                        desert country as people like Baron Rothschild had led them to beleive.
                        They were Ashkenazi Jews fleeing persecution in Romania and Russia. They
                        were poor and they were desperate.

                        Even now in Israel, there are many sectors of the population who deplore
                        the
                        Occupation and seek peace with the Arabs. Many of them were born there
                        and
                        they can't simply be kicked out. It is unfair to blame the children for
                        the
                        sins of the fathers.

                        Most of the problems are started by the newer settlers who build their
                        settlements on relatively recently seized land. Many of the far-rightist
                        from the United States (mostly). Their aggression in the face of the
                        complicity of the Israeli government have provoked a people to lash out in
                        retaliation in the only way they know - terrorism, specifically,
                        suicide-bombing.

                        It is unfortunate that suicide bombing cannot differentiate between the
                        innocent and the guilty, the young and the old. It is ironic that Israel
                        is
                        now the target of the very form of terrorism practiced to found it by
                        groups
                        like the Stern Gang and the Irgun. History repeats itself. And those who
                        do not learn the lessons of the past and apply it to the present are bound
                        to repeat it in the future.

                        They wrote in the old days that it is sweet and fitting to die for one's
                        country. But in modern war, there is nothing sweet nor fitting in your
                        dying. You will die like a dog for no good reason.

                        Ernest Hemmingway


                        Terence Nunis
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Christopher Bobo
                        To: Wisdom Forum
                        Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 1:54 AM
                        Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew


                        Terence,

                        That was very helpful and I appreciate your efforts to educate me on
                        this
                        subject. You appear to have studied this matter extensively. Truly, the
                        first step toward wisdom is getting the facts right, so your assistance is
                        invaluable.

                        I do, note, however, that you seem to fault all Israelis with the acts
                        of
                        Jewish terrorist and extremist groups. Clearly, the deliberate killing of
                        civilians is just wrong and cannot be tolerated by any civilized standard.
                        Even the rules of war prohibit the unnecessary killing of civilians. You
                        point to the role of Menachin Begin, but he apparently later repented his
                        hardline stance and sought to make peace witht he Palestinians. Surely,
                        we
                        must allow that people can change and repent of their past misdeeds and
                        try
                        to make amends for them. What's more, we cannot carry a grievance
                        forever.
                        At some point, I think the pas! t must be set aside and people agree to go
                        into the future based upon some accomodation that can be made in the
                        present. Don't you agree?

                        Whether you agree or not, thank you for your contribution. It's truly
                        a
                        pleasure to hear from one as knowledgeable as yourself on a matter of such
                        urgent importance. And to conclude with a final philosophical
                        afterthought,
                        so to speak, although I have been suggesting that this may be a time where
                        the only recourse for rational parties is resort to war, I am reminded of
                        the Kant's words against the possibility for a rational justification for
                        war as an oxymoron, when he said "But the homage which each state pays (at
                        least in words) to the concept of law proves that there is slumbering in
                        man
                        an even greater moral disposition to become master of the evil principle
                        in
                        himself (which he cannot disclaim) and to hope for the same from others."
                        Perhpas that slumbering moral disposition to! a perpetual peace will
                        eventually show itself among the participants in the Middle East conflict
                        and the rest of us can give up our worrying and concern.

                        With many thanks,
                        Chris

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Sayf Uddeen Fariis @ Terence Kenneth John Nunis
                        Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 4:46 AM
                        To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew

                        Somehow I see it differently.

                        That the Jews started by buying land is true. The Ottoman Land Code
                        of
                        1858. It was a sneaky way for the corrupt powers that be to benefit at
                        the
                        expense of the peasantry. The Palestinian farmers owned the land for
                        centuries under the traditional form of lad tenure known as the masha'a,
                        or
                        communal usufruct. The implications of the Land Code was that the
                        peasnats
                        could be deprived legally of the right to live and cultivate his land,
                        somethingt previously inalienable.

                        The 1858 legislation required the peasants to register their
                        ownership.
                        Something that illiterate peasants weren't as good at as the rich
                        lasndowners who pushed it through. ! These people registered the land as
                        theirs and sold it to the Jewish Agency, who were a party to this
                        injustice.

                        No prizes for guessing what happened when Zionist Jews (not Jews,
                        there
                        is a distinction), came to seize 'their' land. And that's how they got
                        their land in the beginning. to say that the Jews bought it is just a
                        small
                        part of the story. How they bought it is more important.

                        The United Nations General Assembly did not have that right in their
                        constitution to vote for the partition of Palestine. That's something
                        conveniently forgotten. In the same vein the British had no right to
                        issue
                        the Balfour Declaration of 1917. To take away a land you did not own to
                        give to a p! eople who did not own it save from some vague Biblical
                        reference to a Semitic race and fudging over other aspects of the covenent
                        between Moses and God which I can go into excruciating detail over.
                        Detaiks
                        like the origins of the Ashkenazi as opposed to the Shephardim. How can
                        the
                        Jews today claim to be the Jews of the Bible when they are not for the
                        most
                        part the descendents of the people thrown out by Titus in 67 AD? They are
                        mostly the remmants of the Khazari.

                        The King-Crane Commisiion was despatched at the end of WWII by
                        Woodrow
                        Wilson to assess the claims of the Zionists, the Arabs, the French and the
                        British. Here are some intersting findings of that commission: -
                        1.. 90% of the inhabitants of Palestine were non-Jewish and opposed
                        the formation of! a Jewsish State.
                        2.. If given Palestine, the 'Zionists looked forward to practically
                        complete disposession of the present non-Jewish inhabitants'.
                        3.. The King-Crane Comission stated that the proposed Jewish state
                        would violate the Palestinian right to self-determination. They
                        recommended
                        that the Zionists respect Palestinian wishes and find somewhere else.
                        When Chiam Weizman, President of the World Zionist Congres declared
                        Palestine as 'a country without a people for a people without a country',
                        it
                        was a manifest lie and he was aware of it.

                        The Arab-Israeli Wars were always a case of David versus Goliath but
                        the 'David' in questi! on were the Arabs. The Palestinians did not
                        abandon
                        their land. Incidents like Deir Yassin in April, 1948, forced them to
                        flee
                        in terror. Do you know what happened in deir Yassin? While the yopung
                        men
                        worked in the fields, 254 geriartics, womern and children, including
                        babies,
                        were butchered and thrown down the village wells. They dynamited the
                        houses, looted and rpaed amongst other noble deeds for the 'return of
                        Israel'. The leadership of the Irgun command, the perpetrators
                        proclaimed,
                        'as in deir Yassin, so everywhere'. Do you know who led the massacre? He
                        was Menachem Begin, twice-elected Premier.

                        I have a whole catalogue of incidents from my modest research. From
                        extracts of the de-classified CIA reports to a few historical records and
                        quotes from the leaders of the early Zionist movemen! t. I wanted to find
                        out the truth. Having worked in the government before, I neve trusted
                        official news agencies. You want to find something out, you search for it
                        yourself. Sometimes, along the way, the truth is so startling you change
                        your entire world view. That is traumatic.

                        One of the interesting things I learned is that contrary to what most
                        people believe, there are a lot of Jews who opposed and still oppose the
                        existence of Israel for varied reasons. The more religious because it is
                        stated in their Scriptures that the State of Israel will not be founded
                        again until the return of the Messiah. The non-Zionist Jews that speak
                        out
                        too much tend to be killed, or defamed or done in by any appropriate
                        measures.

                        I hope this was helpful. It is entirely your right to digress or
                        otherwise.

                        Terence Nunis
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Christopher Bobo
                        To: Wisdom Forum
                        Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 7:43 AM
                        Subject: Re:! [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew


                        To me this sounds like another argument to give war a chance, to
                        let
                        it run it's course until one side is victorious and the other is
                        vanquished.

                        Of course, this whole thing with the land is ambiguous too. When
                        the
                        Jews were moving to the area before and after World War II, they were not
                        taking land by force--they were buying it. Then when the British pulled
                        out
                        and the U.N. voted for partition, the Palestinians rejected that
                        settlement
                        that involved two states. Many Palestinians simply abandoned their land
                        and
                        fled to Arab countries like Lebanon and Jordan, no doubt thinking they
                        could
                        return when the Arabs beat the Israelis in war. Of course, the problem
                        was
                        that the Israelis won the war, so they took all that abandoned land. The
                        Israelis did not expell any Palestinians and those who stayed ke! pt their
                        property. As time went on, the Israeli Jews bought more Palestinian
                        property and arguably bull-do! zed the homes of some suspected terrorists.
                        Truthfully, I don't think I ever heard tell of the Israeli's taking land
                        by
                        force.

                        At some point, the Palestinians who fled decided that they wanted
                        to
                        return to the property they had abandoned to begin with. Of course, the
                        problem with that is by then the property had been taken over by Israeli
                        settlers--and why not, it had been abandoned since the late 40s.

                        Am I wrong about this? The story Terence tells seem to only have a
                        loose connection with the facts and to blithely skip over some important
                        distinctions.

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Sayf Uddeen Fariis @ Terence Kenneth John Nu! nis
                        Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 4:03 PM
                        To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew

                        suicide bombing does not resolve conflicts, it only worsen it.


                        Tell that to someone who has to ive in Palestine. How would you
                        feel if someone came up to you and! said that the land you lived in for
                        hundreds of years is not your but belonged to them 2,00 years ago. The
                        then
                        proceed to take it by force. The courts just give condemnation but the
                        neighbours d! on't do anything. The fellas in the next neighbourhood arm
                        him and take away your weapons?

                        We can talk all we want and condemn and give every reason from
                        the
                        allegedly Biblical to philosophical. It is typical human hubris to assume
                        that we can emphatise with everything even though we don't have all the
                        facts. There has to be a reason why people would celebrate sending their
                        sons and daughters to die.

                        Isn't one man's terrorist, another's freedom figghter? Bush,
                        Powell, Sharon, Arafat, Hussein, ! Saddam and every body will have their
                        say
                        but it's never going to stop the Palestinian issue. Some advocate
                        statehood. Others advocate the immediate destruction of the State of
                        Israel. Not jus! t some Muslims but some Jews. And everybody's got a
                        reason.

                        The entire international community is to blame in some degree or
                        other for the current state of events. And to think it all started with
                        Theodore Herzl's vision.

                        Terence Nunis
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: james tan
                        To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 2:12 AM
                        Subject: [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew



                        am not sure if talking about neo-nazism and jewish conspiracies
                        could be
                        considered as a degeneration; after all, such beliefs, if held
                        by
                        people no
                        matter how irrational, could produce actions which are unwise.
                        and though i
                        could understand ur attempt to empathize with the palestinians
                        (same here),
                        to say that we should celebrate the 'heroism' of sucide bombers
                        is too hot a
                        tea to swallow, at least for me. just becaus! e a man has a sad
                        history is no
                        reason for us to condone his murderous activity for revenge,
                        let
                        alone to
                        celebrate it. a better way can be worked out, but to condone an
                        eye for an
                        eye seems maladative! in the long run (what does it achieve
                        really). suicide
                        bombing does not resolve conflicts, it only worsen it.

                        james.


                        From: Tommy Beavitt <tommy@...>
                        Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                        To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew
                        Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 12:40:26 +0100

                        I am sorry that this forum has degenerated into stuff about
                        neo-nazis
                        and Jewish conspiracies. Unfortunately that says more about the
                        times
                        we live in, I think, than any lack of rationality on the part
                        of
                        contributors.

                        With regard to the similarity to the ideas of Da! vid Duke and
                        Adolph
                        Hitler, point taken, it is true. The difficulty is that what we
                        are
                        discussing are the flagrant racist and terrorist policies being
                        adopted by the zionist entity, the state of Israel.
                        Of course Hitler was wrong to conclude that the reason for the
                        inequity faced by ordinary Germans in the 1930s was the fault
                        of
                        the
                        Jews. People who have Jewish blood running through their veins
                        are
                        not essentially different from you and I in any way whatsoever.
                        So
                        it was completely irrational (not to say immoral) to select for
                        the
                        innmates of Auschwitz and Belsen those people who were believed
                        to be
                        of Jewish blood.

                        This does not necessarily invalidate some of the arguments
                        supporting
                        the premises upon which this racist creed was constructed. In
                        other
                        words, Germany in the 20s and 30s was indeed the unfortunate
                        victim
                        of a zionist conspiracy.

                        It is for very good reasons that we agree to deprecate racism
                        as
                        acriteria for judging whether another human being is a friend or an
                        enemy. Such thinking leads to disaster for the human race and
                        civilisation on a far more serious scale than conflict based on
                        other
                        criter! ia.

                        Unfortunately this self-same error was perpetuated in the
                        aftermath
                        of the Second World War and especially in 1948 with the
                        creation
                        of a
                        state which has racism written into its constitution. In a move
                        which
                        almost belies belief (and to a certain extent mitigates the
                        racist
                        rhetoric of Hitler in the 30s) the Allied Powers connived in
                        the
                        creation and maintenance of a state which bases its immigration
                        policy on the criterion of whether the applicant has Jewish
                        blood
                        running through his or her veins. There is absolutely no
                        justication
                        or precedent for this in the modern world and we should all
                        agree
                        that Israel as it stands has no more right to exist in the
                        modern
                        world than apartheid South Africa had.

                        Until this is! agreed by the international community and Israel
                        is
                        reconstitued to give equal rights of citizenship to all of its
                        residents there can be no peace in the land of Palestine and we
                        should celebrate the heroism ! of Palestinian suicide bombers
                        in
                        their
                        valiant attempts to obtain justice in the face of overwhelming
                        oppressive force.

                        It may also be that partitioning the land of Palestine to give
                        a
                        state to Palestinians with a viable economy and borders it can
                        defend
                        against its Israeli neighbours will be a necessary step to
                        ensure
                        that peace becomes possible.

                        Tommy Beavitt


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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • james tan
                        oh i see. james. From: Eduard Alf Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com To: Subject: RE: [existlist]
                        Message 11 of 16 , Apr 12, 2002
                          oh i see.

                          james.


                          From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                          Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                          To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                          Subject: RE: [existlist] Antisemite and Jew
                          Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 00:04:48 -0400

                          james,

                          War is always a moral endeavour. Morals are simply the rules by which you
                          decide to conduct yourself. It is only after the war is finished that the
                          correctness of the moral is determined absolutely. Of course, it is the
                          winner who makes the determination. War in simplicity, is a means by which
                          you get what you want, when the opposition does not wish to give it to you
                          directly.

                          eduard
                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
                          Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 11:38 PM
                          To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [existlist] Antisemite and Jew



                          i think moral idea precede means, and war to me seems to be just a means
                          to
                          enforce ur standpoint. it is not unusual to have weaker country overrun
                          by
                          a
                          stronger one, and just because the weaker one was militarily defeated
                          does
                          not mean the stronger one has a better moral standpoint. military ability
                          and morality are distinct, they are conceptually different, although
                          sometimes one can serve the other. personally, although i tend to
                          sympathise
                          with the plight of the palesinians, and disapprove of the means of
                          suicide
                          bombing (killing innocent civilians), i tend to see the palestinians do
                          have
                          a moral claim to the land of palestine. but as swm pointed out, countries
                          are formed through historical processes, and it is hard to say the land
                          'really' belongs to who. eg, singapore used to be one of the states of
                          malaysia, but now it is a sovereign nation; australia used to belong to
                          the
                          alborgines, tibet used to be sovereign, but now it is but a province of
                          china, usa used to belong to the red indians, and many parts of china
                          were
                          actually little sovereign kingdoms. so, in my simplistic way, i'd say
                          that
                          the israelis have a right to the land, but morally and sentimentally i do
                          think so do the palestinians. if war is a guiding factor to decide, then
                          i
                          dont see the need of a moral dimension anymore. genhis ghan of the
                          ancient
                          mongolia was not known for his morality (he was actually described as the
                          most cruel man in history, his sadism is something that a dracula's or
                          nazis's atrocity would be considered as child's play), and yet he had
                          procured the largest empire of land the world has ever known through his
                          wars and battles. wars are just means to one's will and idea. knife is
                          just
                          a means to some purpose of man, and knife per se cannot determine whether
                          the purpose is moral or not. this is just my common sense idea, with no
                          basis in kant or other philosophy. any criticism.

                          james.


                          From: "Christopher Bobo" <cbobo@...>
                          Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                          To: "Wisdom Forum" <WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com>
                          Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew
                          Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 19:34:18 -0700

                          But philosophers have recognized philosophical justifications for war.
                          Hugo
                          Grotius, Pufendorf and Vattel have all offered philosophical
                          justifications
                          for war. Jean-Paul Sartre also saw war as justified in some
                          circumstances.
                          Karl Popper also saw war as justified in the defense of open societies.
                          The article that I posted by Luttwak offered some philosophical
                          justifications for war. The article that I posted by Luttwak offered
                          some
                          philosophical justifications for war, and it seems especially appropriate
                          in
                          the present circumstances. The questions, I suppose, are whether there
                          can
                          be any legitimate philosophical and moral justifications for war and
                          whether
                          war can be conducted morally. What do you think?

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: james tan
                          Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 6:54 PM
                          To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew


                          but if we give war a chance, does this (m-e conflict) then become a
                          military) might issue, and not a moral issue?

                          james.


                          From: "Christopher Bobo" <cbobo@...>
                          Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                          To: "Wisdom Forum" <WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com>
                          Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew
                          Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 16:43:20 -0700

                          To me this sounds like another argument to give war a chance, to let it
                          run
                          it's course until one side is victorious and the other is vanquished.

                          Of course, this whole thing with the land is ambiguous too. When the
                          Jews
                          were moving to the area before and after World War II, they were not
                          taking
                          land by force--they were buying it. Then when the British pulled out and
                          the U.N. voted for partition, the Palestinians rejected that settlement
                          that
                          involved two states. Many Palestinians simply abandoned their land and
                          fled
                          to Arab countries like Lebanon and Jordan, no doubt thinking they could
                          return when the Arabs beat the Israelis in war. Of course, the problem
                          was
                          that the Israelis won the war, so they took all that abandoned land. The
                          Israelis did not expell any Palestinians and those who stayed kept their
                          property. As time went on, the Israeli Jews bought more Palestinian
                          property and arguably bull-dozed the homes of some suspected terrorists.
                          Truthfully, I don't think I ever heard tell of the Israeli's taking land
                          by
                          force.

                          At some point, the Palestinians who fled decided that they wanted to
                          return
                          to the property they had abandoned to begin with. Of course, the problem
                          with that is by then the property had been taken over by Israeli
                          settlers--and why not, it had been abandoned since the late 40s.

                          Am I wrong about this? The story Terence tells seem to only have a loose
                          connection with the facts and to blithely skip over some important
                          distinctions.

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Sayf Uddeen Fariis @ Terence Kenneth John Nunis
                          Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 4:03 PM
                          To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew

                          suicide bombing does not resolve conflicts, it only worsen it.


                          Tell that to someone who has to ive in Palestine. How would you feel if
                          someone came up to you and said that the land you lived in for hundreds
                          of
                          years is not your but belonged to them 2,00 years ago. The then proceed
                          to
                          take it by force. The courts just give condemnation but the neighbours
                          don't do anything. The fellas in the next neighbourhood arm him and take
                          away your weapons?

                          We can talk all we want and condemn and give every reason from the
                          allegedly
                          Biblical to philosophical. It is typical human hubris to assume that we
                          can
                          emphatise with everything even though we don't have all the facts. There
                          has to be a reason why people would celebrate sending their sons and
                          daughters to die.

                          Isn't one man's terrorist, another's freedom figghter? Bush, Powell,
                          Sharon, Arafat, Hussein, Saddam and every body will have their say but
                          it's
                          never going to stop the Palestinian issue. Some advocate statehood.
                          Others
                          advocate the immediate destruction of the State of Israel. Not just
                          some
                          Muslims but some Jews. And everybody's got a reason.

                          The entire international community is to blame in some degree or other
                          for
                          the current state of events. And to think it all started with Theodore
                          Herzl's vision.

                          Terence Nunis
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: james tan
                          To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 2:12 AM
                          Subject: [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew



                          am not sure if talking about neo-nazism and jewish conspiracies could be
                          considered as a degeneration; after all, such beliefs, if held by people
                          no
                          matter how irrational, could produce actions which are unwise. and though
                          i
                          could understand ur attempt to empathize with the palestinians (same
                          here),
                          to say that we should celebrate the 'heroism' of sucide bombers is too
                          hot
                          a
                          tea to swallow, at least for me. just because a man has a sad history is
                          no
                          reason for us to condone his murderous activity for revenge, let alone to
                          celebrate it. a better way can be worked out, but to condone an eye for
                          an
                          eye seems maladative in the long run (what does it achieve really).
                          suicide
                          bombing does not resolve conflicts, it only worsen it.

                          james.


                          From: Tommy Beavitt <tommy@...>
                          Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                          To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew
                          Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 12:40:26 +0100

                          I am sorry that this forum has degenerated into stuff about neo-nazis
                          and Jewish conspiracies. Unfortunately that says more about the times
                          we live in, I think, than any lack of rationality on the part of
                          contributors.

                          With regard to the similarity to the ideas of David Duke and Adolph
                          Hitler, point taken, it is true. The difficulty is that what we are
                          discussing are the flagrant racist and terrorist policies being
                          adopted by the zionist entity, the state of Israel.

                          Of course Hitler was wrong to conclude that the reason for the
                          inequity faced by ordinary Germans in the 1930s was the fault of the
                          Jews. People who have Jewish blood running through their veins are
                          not essentially different from you and I in any way whatsoever. So
                          it was completely irrational (not people who were believed to be
                          of Jewish blood.

                          This does not necessarily invalidate some of the arguments supporting
                          the premises upon which this racist creed was constructed. In other
                          words, Germany in the 20s and 30s was indeed the unfortunate to say
                          immoral)
                          to select for the
                          innmates of Auschwitz and Belsen those victim
                          of a zionist conspiracy.

                          It is for very good reasons that we agree to deprecate racism as a
                          criteria for judging whether another human being is a friend or an
                          enemy. Such thinking leads to disaster for the human race and
                          civilisation on a far more serious scale than conflict based on other
                          criteria.

                          Unfortunately this self-same error was perpetuated in the aftermath
                          of the Second World War and especially in 1948 with the creation of a
                          state which has racism written into its constitution. In a move which
                          almost belies belief (and to a certain extent mitigates the racist
                          rhetoric of Hitler in the 30s) the Allied Powers connived in the
                          creation and maintenance of a state which bases its immigration
                          policy on the criterion of whether the applicant has Jewish blood
                          running through his or her veins. There is absolutely no justication
                          or precedent for this in the modern world and we should all agree
                          that Israel as it stands has no more right to exist in the modern
                          world than apartheid South Africa had.

                          Until this is agreed by the international community and Israel is
                          reconstitued to give equal rights of citizenship to all of its
                          residents there can be no peace in the land of Palestine and we
                          should celebrate the heroism of Palestinian suicide bombers in their
                          valiant attempts to obtain justice in the face of overwhelming
                          oppressive force.

                          It may also be that partitioning the land of Palestine to give a
                          state to Palestinians with a viable economy and borders it can defend
                          against its Israeli neighbours will be a necessary step to ensure
                          that peace becomes possible.

                          Tommy Beavitt








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                        • james tan
                          eduard, u have a good pt there. recently there is a little debate in my country about patriotism. a son of a certain minister or member of parliment (can t
                          Message 12 of 16 , Apr 12, 2002
                            eduard,

                            u have a good pt there. recently there is a little debate in my country
                            about patriotism. a son of a certain minister or member of parliment (can't
                            remember which) asked his father why should he die for singapore? when e
                            question was raised, it aroused the 'righteous' anger of another certain
                            minister that such question should be raised at all. "of course we should
                            die for our country; i will be the first one to send my 2 sons to go and
                            fight, and if necessary, die..". this minister sort of 'take it for granted'
                            that all men in singapore will want to die for their countries, and his own
                            passion (if mere passionate rhetoric is not cheap) seems proof of it. he was
                            cynical that such question by the young lad could be asked at all (as if he
                            think he, or for that matter, anybody, could control thoughts and values;
                            there is a curious mixture of ministerial self-righteousness and naive
                            denial of the psychology of man, not to mention his total lack of experience
                            and actual ignorance of the reality of practical situation of war). i am not
                            saying he is wrong, but i was just wondering if he only really know what
                            fighting in a war is like, will he be as quick in his action as his
                            rhetoric? and did he think by disallowing such discussion as brought out by
                            the lad, that people will not think? and just because he hold dear a certain
                            value that all people will likewise hold as dear? i know i am digressing
                            here, but can't help thinking about him at this pt. if only he knew, he
                            wouldn't be so quick.

                            james.


                            From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                            Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                            To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                            Subject: RE: [existlist] Antisemite and Jew
                            Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 00:39:59 -0400

                            james,

                            The reason why they could write, in the old days, that in war it would be
                            sweet and fitting to die, is because they did not have CNN there to video
                            tape the thing. The young would be marched off to some military tune and
                            they would be young enough to not have memories of the last conflict. I
                            once bought an old picture of two Canadian soldiers who appeared pleased in
                            their new uniforms prior to heading off to WW1 in Europe. One of my uncles
                            marched off to the war in Europe and in return my father got a nice short
                            government letter saying that he had been killed ... and by the way, here is
                            a neat copper plaque to remember him by. Perhaps if CNN were there, less of
                            the nation's young would be willing to do the marching. The bottom line is
                            that countries tend to embark upon a war because they convince themselves
                            that it will be easy. A good example is the German run at Russian in WW2.
                            It was going to be a piece of cake, and they did not even think to prepare
                            for the coming winter. That is why there are so many Palestinians lost out
                            in 1948. The feeling was that they would leave their property for perhaps a
                            week or so and then move back in when the Israelis were defeated. There is
                            such a thing as reaping the whirlwind.

                            eduard
                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
                            Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 11:43 PM
                            To: Fateha@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [existlist] Antisemite and Jew


                            From: "Sayf Uddeen Fariis @ Terence Kenneth John Nunis"
                            <terence_nunis@...>
                            Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                            To: <WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com>
                            Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew
                            Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 03:15:50 +0800

                            Chris,

                            I think it is right to say that not all Israelis are to blame. The first
                            and second aliyas were very surprised to discover that Palestine was not
                            a
                            desert country as people like Baron Rothschild had led them to beleive.
                            They were Ashkenazi Jews fleeing persecution in Romania and Russia. They
                            were poor and they were desperate.

                            Even now in Israel, there are many sectors of the population who deplore
                            the
                            Occupation and seek peace with the Arabs. Many of them were born there
                            and
                            they can't simply be kicked out. It is unfair to blame the children for
                            the
                            sins of the fathers.

                            Most of the problems are started by the newer settlers who build their
                            settlements on relatively recently seized land. Many of the far-rightist
                            from the United States (mostly). Their aggression in the face of the
                            complicity of the Israeli government have provoked a people to lash out
                            in
                            retaliation in the only way they know - terrorism, specifically,
                            suicide-bombing.

                            It is unfortunate that suicide bombing cannot differentiate between the
                            innocent and the guilty, the young and the old. It is ironic that Israel
                            is
                            now the target of the very form of terrorism practiced to found it by
                            groups
                            like the Stern Gang and the Irgun. History repeats itself. And those
                            who
                            do not learn the lessons of the past and apply it to the present are
                            bound
                            to repeat it in the future.

                            They wrote in the old days that it is sweet and fitting to die for one's
                            country. But in modern war, there is nothing sweet nor fitting in your
                            dying. You will die like a dog for no good reason.

                            Ernest Hemmingway


                            Terence Nunis
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Christopher Bobo
                            To: Wisdom Forum
                            Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 1:54 AM
                            Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew


                            Terence,

                            That was very helpful and I appreciate your efforts to educate me on
                            this
                            subject. You appear to have studied this matter extensively. Truly, the
                            first step toward wisdom is getting the facts right, so your assistance
                            is
                            invaluable.

                            I do, note, however, that you seem to fault all Israelis with the acts
                            of
                            Jewish terrorist and extremist groups. Clearly, the deliberate killing
                            of
                            civilians is just wrong and cannot be tolerated by any civilized
                            standard.
                            Even the rules of war prohibit the unnecessary killing of civilians. You
                            point to the role of Menachin Begin, but he apparently later repented his
                            hardline stance and sought to make peace witht he Palestinians. Surely,
                            we
                            must allow that people can change and repent of their past misdeeds and
                            try
                            to make amends for them. What's more, we cannot carry a grievance
                            forever.
                            At some point, I think the pas! t must be set aside and people agree to
                            go
                            into the future based upon some accomodation that can be made in the
                            present. Don't you agree?

                            Whether you agree or not, thank you for your contribution. It's truly
                            a
                            pleasure to hear from one as knowledgeable as yourself on a matter of
                            such
                            urgent importance. And to conclude with a final philosophical
                            afterthought,
                            so to speak, although I have been suggesting that this may be a time
                            where
                            the only recourse for rational parties is resort to war, I am reminded of
                            the Kant's words against the possibility for a rational justification for
                            war as an oxymoron, when he said "But the homage which each state pays
                            (at
                            least in words) to the concept of law proves that there is slumbering in
                            man
                            an even greater moral disposition to become master of the evil principle
                            in
                            himself (which he cannot disclaim) and to hope for the same from others."
                            Perhpas that slumbering moral disposition to! a perpetual peace will
                            eventually show itself among the participants in the Middle East conflict
                            and the rest of us can give up our worrying and concern.

                            With many thanks,
                            Chris

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Sayf Uddeen Fariis @ Terence Kenneth John Nunis
                            Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 4:46 AM
                            To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew

                            Somehow I see it differently.

                            That the Jews started by buying land is true. The Ottoman Land Code
                            of
                            1858. It was a sneaky way for the corrupt powers that be to benefit at
                            the
                            expense of the peasantry. The Palestinian farmers owned the land for
                            centuries under the traditional form of lad tenure known as the masha'a,
                            or
                            communal usufruct. The implications of the Land Code was that the
                            peasnats
                            could be deprived legally of the right to live and cultivate his land,
                            somethingt previously inalienable.

                            The 1858 legislation required the peasants to register their
                            ownership.
                            Something that illiterate peasants weren't as good at as the rich
                            lasndowners who pushed it through. ! These people registered the land as
                            theirs and sold it to the Jewish Agency, who were a party to this
                            injustice.

                            No prizes for guessing what happened when Zionist Jews (not Jews,
                            there
                            is a distinction), came to seize 'their' land. And that's how they got
                            their land in the beginning. to say that the Jews bought it is just a
                            small
                            part of the story. How they bought it is more important.

                            The United Nations General Assembly did not have that right in their
                            constitution to vote for the partition of Palestine. That's something
                            conveniently forgotten. In the same vein the British had no right to
                            issue
                            the Balfour Declaration of 1917. To take away a land you did not own to
                            give to a p! eople who did not own it save from some vague Biblical
                            reference to a Semitic race and fudging over other aspects of the
                            covenent
                            between Moses and God which I can go into excruciating detail over.
                            Detaiks
                            like the origins of the Ashkenazi as opposed to the Shephardim. How can
                            the
                            Jews today claim to be the Jews of the Bible when they are not for the
                            most
                            part the descendents of the people thrown out by Titus in 67 AD? They
                            are
                            mostly the remmants of the Khazari.

                            The King-Crane Commisiion was despatched at the end of WWII by
                            Woodrow
                            Wilson to assess the claims of the Zionists, the Arabs, the French and
                            the
                            British. Here are some intersting findings of that commission: -
                            1.. 90% of the inhabitants of Palestine were non-Jewish and
                            opposed
                            the formation of! a Jewsish State.
                            2.. If given Palestine, the 'Zionists looked forward to
                            practically
                            complete disposession of the present non-Jewish inhabitants'.
                            3.. The King-Crane Comission stated that the proposed Jewish state
                            would violate the Palestinian right to self-determination. They
                            recommended
                            that the Zionists respect Palestinian wishes and find somewhere else.
                            When Chiam Weizman, President of the World Zionist Congres declared
                            Palestine as 'a country without a people for a people without a country',
                            it
                            was a manifest lie and he was aware of it.

                            The Arab-Israeli Wars were always a case of David versus Goliath but
                            the 'David' in questi! on were the Arabs. The Palestinians did not
                            abandon
                            their land. Incidents like Deir Yassin in April, 1948, forced them to
                            flee
                            in terror. Do you know what happened in deir Yassin? While the yopung
                            men
                            worked in the fields, 254 geriartics, womern and children, including
                            babies,
                            were butchered and thrown down the village wells. They dynamited the
                            houses, looted and rpaed amongst other noble deeds for the 'return of
                            Israel'. The leadership of the Irgun command, the perpetrators
                            proclaimed,
                            'as in deir Yassin, so everywhere'. Do you know who led the massacre?
                            He
                            was Menachem Begin, twice-elected Premier.

                            I have a whole catalogue of incidents from my modest research. From
                            extracts of the de-classified CIA reports to a few historical records and
                            quotes from the leaders of the early Zionist movemen! t. I wanted to
                            find
                            out the truth. Having worked in the government before, I neve trusted
                            official news agencies. You want to find something out, you search for
                            it
                            yourself. Sometimes, along the way, the truth is so startling you change
                            your entire world view. That is traumatic.

                            One of the interesting things I learned is that contrary to what
                            most
                            people believe, there are a lot of Jews who opposed and still oppose the
                            existence of Israel for varied reasons. The more religious because it is
                            stated in their Scriptures that the State of Israel will not be founded
                            again until the return of the Messiah. The non-Zionist Jews that speak
                            out
                            too much tend to be killed, or defamed or done in by any appropriate
                            measures.

                            I hope this was helpful. It is entirely your right to digress or
                            otherwise.

                            Terence Nunis
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Christopher Bobo
                            To: Wisdom Forum
                            Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 7:43 AM
                            Subject: Re:! [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew


                            To me this sounds like another argument to give war a chance, to
                            let
                            it run it's course until one side is victorious and the other is
                            vanquished.

                            Of course, this whole thing with the land is ambiguous too. When
                            the
                            Jews were moving to the area before and after World War II, they were not
                            taking land by force--they were buying it. Then when the British pulled
                            out
                            and the U.N. voted for partition, the Palestinians rejected that
                            settlement
                            that involved two states. Many Palestinians simply abandoned their land
                            and
                            fled to Arab countries like Lebanon and Jordan, no doubt thinking they
                            could
                            return when the Arabs beat the Israelis in war. Of course, the problem
                            was
                            that the Israelis won the war, so they took all that abandoned land. The
                            Israelis did not expell any Palestinians and those who stayed ke! pt
                            their
                            property. As time went on, the Israeli Jews bought more Palestinian
                            property and arguably bull-do! zed the homes of some suspected
                            terrorists.
                            Truthfully, I don't think I ever heard tell of the Israeli's taking land
                            by
                            force.

                            At some point, the Palestinians who fled decided that they wanted
                            to
                            return to the property they had abandoned to begin with. Of course, the
                            problem with that is by then the property had been taken over by Israeli
                            settlers--and why not, it had been abandoned since the late 40s.

                            Am I wrong about this? The story Terence tells seem to only have
                            a
                            loose connection with the facts and to blithely skip over some important
                            distinctions.

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Sayf Uddeen Fariis @ Terence Kenneth John Nu! nis
                            Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 4:03 PM
                            To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew

                            suicide bombing does not resolve conflicts, it only worsen it.


                            Tell that to someone who has to ive in Palestine. How would you
                            feel if someone came up to you and! said that the land you lived in for
                            hundreds of years is not your but belonged to them 2,00 years ago. The
                            then
                            proceed to take it by force. The courts just give condemnation but the
                            neighbours d! on't do anything. The fellas in the next neighbourhood arm
                            him and take away your weapons?

                            We can talk all we want and condemn and give every reason from
                            the
                            allegedly Biblical to philosophical. It is typical human hubris to
                            assume
                            that we can emphatise with everything even though we don't have all the
                            facts. There has to be a reason why people would celebrate sending their
                            sons and daughters to die.

                            Isn't one man's terrorist, another's freedom figghter? Bush,
                            Powell, Sharon, Arafat, Hussein, ! Saddam and every body will have their
                            say
                            but it's never going to stop the Palestinian issue. Some advocate
                            statehood. Others advocate the immediate destruction of the State of
                            Israel. Not jus! t some Muslims but some Jews. And everybody's got a
                            reason.

                            The entire international community is to blame in some degree or
                            other for the current state of events. And to think it all started with
                            Theodore Herzl's vision.

                            Terence Nunis
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: james tan
                            To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 2:12 AM
                            Subject: [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew



                            am not sure if talking about neo-nazism and jewish
                            conspiracies
                            could be
                            considered as a degeneration; after all, such beliefs, if held
                            by
                            people no
                            matter how irrational, could produce actions which are unwise.
                            and though i
                            could understand ur attempt to empathize with the palestinians
                            (same here),
                            to say that we should celebrate the 'heroism' of sucide
                            bombers
                            is too hot a
                            tea to swallow, at least for me. just becaus! e a man has a
                            sad
                            history is no
                            reason for us to condone his murderous activity for revenge,
                            let
                            alone to
                            celebrate it. a better way can be worked out, but to condone
                            an
                            eye for an
                            eye seems maladative! in the long run (what does it achieve
                            really). suicide
                            bombing does not resolve conflicts, it only worsen it.

                            james.


                            From: Tommy Beavitt <tommy@...>
                            Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                            To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew
                            Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 12:40:26 +0100

                            I am sorry that this forum has degenerated into stuff about
                            neo-nazis
                            and Jewish conspiracies. Unfortunately that says more about
                            the
                            times
                            we live in, I think, than any lack of rationality on the part
                            of
                            contributors.

                            With regard to the similarity to the ideas of Da! vid Duke and
                            Adolph
                            Hitler, point taken, it is true. The difficulty is that what
                            we
                            are
                            discussing are the flagrant racist and terrorist policies
                            being
                            adopted by the zionist entity, the state of Israel.
                            Of course Hitler was wrong to conclude that the reason for the
                            inequity faced by ordinary Germans in the 1930s was the fault
                            of
                            the
                            Jews. People who have Jewish blood running through their veins
                            are
                            not essentially different from you and I in any way
                            whatsoever.
                            So
                            it was completely irrational (not to say immoral) to select
                            for
                            the
                            innmates of Auschwitz and Belsen those people who were
                            believed
                            to be
                            of Jewish blood.

                            This does not necessarily invalidate some of the arguments
                            supporting
                            the premises upon which this racist creed was constructed. In
                            other
                            words, Germany in the 20s and 30s was indeed the unfortunate
                            victim
                            of a zionist conspiracy.

                            It is for very good reasons that we agree to deprecate racism
                            as
                            acriteria for judging whether another human being is a friend or an
                            enemy. Such thinking leads to disaster for the human race and
                            civilisation on a far more serious scale than conflict based
                            on
                            other
                            criter! ia.

                            Unfortunately this self-same error was perpetuated in the
                            aftermath
                            of the Second World War and especially in 1948 with the
                            creation
                            of a
                            state which has racism written into its constitution. In a
                            move
                            which
                            almost belies belief (and to a certain extent mitigates the
                            racist
                            rhetoric of Hitler in the 30s) the Allied Powers connived in
                            the
                            creation and maintenance of a state which bases its
                            immigration
                            policy on the criterion of whether the applicant has Jewish
                            blood
                            running through his or her veins. There is absolutely no
                            justication
                            or precedent for this in the modern world and we should all
                            agree
                            that Israel as it stands has no more right to exist in the
                            modern
                            world than apartheid South Africa had.

                            Until this is! agreed by the international community and
                            Israel
                            is
                            reconstitued to give equal rights of citizenship to all of its
                            residents there can be no peace in the land of Palestine and
                            we
                            should celebrate the heroism ! of Palestinian suicide bombers
                            in
                            their
                            valiant attempts to obtain justice in the face of overwhelming
                            oppressive force.

                            It may also be that partitioning the land of Palestine to give
                            a
                            state to Palestinians with a viable economy and borders it can
                            defend
                            against its Israeli neighbours will be a necessary step to
                            ensure
                            that peace becomes possible.

                            Tommy Beavitt


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                          • Eduard Alf
                            james, There are to types of people who are involved in war. The older adults who are too old to fight, but identify the need for war. And the younger who
                            Message 13 of 16 , Apr 12, 2002
                              james,

                              There are to types of people who are involved in war. The older adults who
                              are too old to fight, but identify the need for war. And the younger who
                              are sent out to do the killing or whatever. In one sense, both of these
                              roles are valid. A society has right to defend itself. I would grant that
                              the term "defend" is open to interpretation. The US involvement in Vietnam
                              was sold on the basis of defense, in that it is better to stop the communist
                              hordes at a distance before they get to the streets of Washington DC. We
                              are both aware that this position was open to question, but it does not
                              change the point that a society does at times go to war.

                              When a society goes to war, it is not the role of the younger to question
                              the reason. This is the purpose of the older generation. I can hear the
                              groans as other read that last sentence, but it is true. There is a point
                              at which one might make a protest, but ultimately the society cannot
                              function if at each stage its direction is questioned. But then I am only
                              speaking here of the dynamics of a society and not whether in the end its
                              direction is correct or not. Actually, I should think that what is going on
                              the middle east is of this order. The Palestinian youth live in a close
                              knot society which due to a commonality of religion that binds the members
                              together, the youth see a clear purpose in suicide bombing. I watched
                              "Politically Incorrect" last night at which someone mentioned that the
                              reason why there is suicide bombings is because of the offer of a paradise
                              for an afterlife. But I don't think that religion itself has anything to do
                              with it. Rather it is simply that youth are opting for suicide bombing as
                              much as worker bees are prepared to give their lives in defending the hive.

                              eduard
                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
                              Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 9:45 AM
                              To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: [existlist] Antisemite and Jew



                              eduard,

                              u have a good pt there. recently there is a little debate in my country
                              about patriotism. a son of a certain minister or member of parliment
                              (can't
                              remember which) asked his father why should he die for singapore? when e
                              question was raised, it aroused the 'righteous' anger of another certain
                              minister that such question should be raised at all. "of course we should
                              die for our country; i will be the first one to send my 2 sons to go and
                              fight, and if necessary, die..". this minister sort of 'take it for
                              granted'
                              that all men in singapore will want to die for their countries, and his
                              own
                              passion (if mere passionate rhetoric is not cheap) seems proof of it. he
                              was
                              cynical that such question by the young lad could be asked at all (as if
                              he
                              think he, or for that matter, anybody, could control thoughts and values;
                              there is a curious mixture of ministerial self-righteousness and naive
                              denial of the psychology of man, not to mention his total lack of
                              experience
                              and actual ignorance of the reality of practical situation of war). i am
                              not
                              saying he is wrong, but i was just wondering if he only really know what
                              fighting in a war is like, will he be as quick in his action as his
                              rhetoric? and did he think by disallowing such discussion as brought out
                              by
                              the lad, that people will not think? and just because he hold dear a
                              certain
                              value that all people will likewise hold as dear? i know i am digressing
                              here, but can't help thinking about him at this pt. if only he knew, he
                              wouldn't be so quick.

                              james.


                              From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                              Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                              To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                              Subject: RE: [existlist] Antisemite and Jew
                              Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 00:39:59 -0400

                              james,

                              The reason why they could write, in the old days, that in war it would be
                              sweet and fitting to die, is because they did not have CNN there to video
                              tape the thing. The young would be marched off to some military tune and
                              they would be young enough to not have memories of the last conflict. I
                              once bought an old picture of two Canadian soldiers who appeared pleased
                              in
                              their new uniforms prior to heading off to WW1 in Europe. One of my
                              uncles
                              marched off to the war in Europe and in return my father got a nice short
                              government letter saying that he had been killed ... and by the way, here
                              is
                              a neat copper plaque to remember him by. Perhaps if CNN were there, less
                              of
                              the nation's young would be willing to do the marching. The bottom line
                              is
                              that countries tend to embark upon a war because they convince themselves
                              that it will be easy. A good example is the German run at Russian in WW2.
                              It was going to be a piece of cake, and they did not even think to prepare
                              for the coming winter. That is why there are so many Palestinians lost
                              out
                              in 1948. The feeling was that they would leave their property for perhaps
                              a
                              week or so and then move back in when the Israelis were defeated. There
                              is
                              such a thing as reaping the whirlwind.

                              eduard
                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
                              Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 11:43 PM
                              To: Fateha@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: [existlist] Antisemite and Jew


                              From: "Sayf Uddeen Fariis @ Terence Kenneth John Nunis"
                              <terence_nunis@...>
                              Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                              To: <WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com>
                              Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew
                              Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 03:15:50 +0800

                              Chris,

                              I think it is right to say that not all Israelis are to blame. The
                              first
                              and second aliyas were very surprised to discover that Palestine was
                              not
                              a
                              desert country as people like Baron Rothschild had led them to beleive.
                              They were Ashkenazi Jews fleeing persecution in Romania and Russia.
                              They
                              were poor and they were desperate.

                              Even now in Israel, there are many sectors of the population who
                              deplore
                              the
                              Occupation and seek peace with the Arabs. Many of them were born there
                              and
                              they can't simply be kicked out. It is unfair to blame the children
                              for
                              the
                              sins of the fathers.

                              Most of the problems are started by the newer settlers who build their
                              settlements on relatively recently seized land. Many of the
                              far-rightist
                              from the United States (mostly). Their aggression in the face of the
                              complicity of the Israeli government have provoked a people to lash out
                              in
                              retaliation in the only way they know - terrorism, specifically,
                              suicide-bombing.

                              It is unfortunate that suicide bombing cannot differentiate between the
                              innocent and the guilty, the young and the old. It is ironic that
                              Israel
                              is
                              now the target of the very form of terrorism practiced to found it by
                              groups
                              like the Stern Gang and the Irgun. History repeats itself. And those
                              who
                              do not learn the lessons of the past and apply it to the present are
                              bound
                              to repeat it in the future.

                              They wrote in the old days that it is sweet and fitting to die for
                              one's
                              country. But in modern war, there is nothing sweet nor fitting in your
                              dying. You will die like a dog for no good reason.

                              Ernest Hemmingway


                              Terence Nunis
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: Christopher Bobo
                              To: Wisdom Forum
                              Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 1:54 AM
                              Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew


                              Terence,

                              That was very helpful and I appreciate your efforts to educate me on
                              this
                              subject. You appear to have studied this matter extensively. Truly,
                              the
                              first step toward wisdom is getting the facts right, so your assistance
                              is
                              invaluable.

                              I do, note, however, that you seem to fault all Israelis with the
                              acts
                              of
                              Jewish terrorist and extremist groups. Clearly, the deliberate killing
                              of
                              civilians is just wrong and cannot be tolerated by any civilized
                              standard.
                              Even the rules of war prohibit the unnecessary killing of civilians.
                              You
                              point to the role of Menachin Begin, but he apparently later repented
                              his
                              hardline stance and sought to make peace witht he Palestinians.
                              Surely,
                              we
                              must allow that people can change and repent of their past misdeeds and
                              try
                              to make amends for them. What's more, we cannot carry a grievance
                              forever.
                              At some point, I think the pas! t must be set aside and people agree to
                              go
                              into the future based upon some accomodation that can be made in the
                              present. Don't you agree?

                              Whether you agree or not, thank you for your contribution. It's
                              truly
                              a
                              pleasure to hear from one as knowledgeable as yourself on a matter of
                              such
                              urgent importance. And to conclude with a final philosophical
                              afterthought,
                              so to speak, although I have been suggesting that this may be a time
                              where
                              the only recourse for rational parties is resort to war, I am reminded
                              of
                              the Kant's words against the possibility for a rational justification
                              for
                              war as an oxymoron, when he said "But the homage which each state pays
                              (at
                              least in words) to the concept of law proves that there is slumbering
                              in
                              man
                              an even greater moral disposition to become master of the evil
                              principle
                              in
                              himself (which he cannot disclaim) and to hope for the same from
                              others."
                              Perhpas that slumbering moral disposition to! a perpetual peace will
                              eventually show itself among the participants in the Middle East
                              conflict
                              and the rest of us can give up our worrying and concern.

                              With many thanks,
                              Chris

                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: Sayf Uddeen Fariis @ Terence Kenneth John Nunis
                              Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 4:46 AM
                              To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew

                              Somehow I see it differently.

                              That the Jews started by buying land is true. The Ottoman Land
                              Code
                              of
                              1858. It was a sneaky way for the corrupt powers that be to benefit at
                              the
                              expense of the peasantry. The Palestinian farmers owned the land for
                              centuries under the traditional form of lad tenure known as the
                              masha'a,
                              or
                              communal usufruct. The implications of the Land Code was that the
                              peasnats
                              could be deprived legally of the right to live and cultivate his land,
                              somethingt previously inalienable.

                              The 1858 legislation required the peasants to register their
                              ownership.
                              Something that illiterate peasants weren't as good at as the rich
                              lasndowners who pushed it through. ! These people registered the land
                              as
                              theirs and sold it to the Jewish Agency, who were a party to this
                              injustice.

                              No prizes for guessing what happened when Zionist Jews (not Jews,
                              there
                              is a distinction), came to seize 'their' land. And that's how they got
                              their land in the beginning. to say that the Jews bought it is just a
                              small
                              part of the story. How they bought it is more important.

                              The United Nations General Assembly did not have that right in
                              their
                              constitution to vote for the partition of Palestine. That's something
                              conveniently forgotten. In the same vein the British had no right to
                              issue
                              the Balfour Declaration of 1917. To take away a land you did not own
                              to
                              give to a p! eople who did not own it save from some vague Biblical
                              reference to a Semitic race and fudging over other aspects of the
                              covenent
                              between Moses and God which I can go into excruciating detail over.
                              Detaiks
                              like the origins of the Ashkenazi as opposed to the Shephardim. How
                              can
                              the
                              Jews today claim to be the Jews of the Bible when they are not for the
                              most
                              part the descendents of the people thrown out by Titus in 67 AD? They
                              are
                              mostly the remmants of the Khazari.

                              The King-Crane Commisiion was despatched at the end of WWII by
                              Woodrow
                              Wilson to assess the claims of the Zionists, the Arabs, the French and
                              the
                              British. Here are some intersting findings of that commission: -
                              1.. 90% of the inhabitants of Palestine were non-Jewish and
                              opposed
                              the formation of! a Jewsish State.
                              2.. If given Palestine, the 'Zionists looked forward to
                              practically
                              complete disposession of the present non-Jewish inhabitants'.
                              3.. The King-Crane Comission stated that the proposed Jewish
                              state
                              would violate the Palestinian right to self-determination. They
                              recommended
                              that the Zionists respect Palestinian wishes and find somewhere else.
                              When Chiam Weizman, President of the World Zionist Congres
                              declared
                              Palestine as 'a country without a people for a people without a
                              country',
                              it
                              was a manifest lie and he was aware of it.

                              The Arab-Israeli Wars were always a case of David versus Goliath
                              but
                              the 'David' in questi! on were the Arabs. The Palestinians did not
                              abandon
                              their land. Incidents like Deir Yassin in April, 1948, forced them to
                              flee
                              in terror. Do you know what happened in deir Yassin? While the yopung
                              men
                              worked in the fields, 254 geriartics, womern and children, including
                              babies,
                              were butchered and thrown down the village wells. They dynamited the
                              houses, looted and rpaed amongst other noble deeds for the 'return of
                              Israel'. The leadership of the Irgun command, the perpetrators
                              proclaimed,
                              'as in deir Yassin, so everywhere'. Do you know who led the massacre?
                              He
                              was Menachem Begin, twice-elected Premier.

                              I have a whole catalogue of incidents from my modest research.
                              From
                              extracts of the de-classified CIA reports to a few historical records
                              and
                              quotes from the leaders of the early Zionist movemen! t. I wanted to
                              find
                              out the truth. Having worked in the government before, I neve trusted
                              official news agencies. You want to find something out, you search for
                              it
                              yourself. Sometimes, along the way, the truth is so startling you
                              change
                              your entire world view. That is traumatic.

                              One of the interesting things I learned is that contrary to what
                              most
                              people believe, there are a lot of Jews who opposed and still oppose
                              the
                              existence of Israel for varied reasons. The more religious because it
                              is
                              stated in their Scriptures that the State of Israel will not be founded
                              again until the return of the Messiah. The non-Zionist Jews that speak
                              out
                              too much tend to be killed, or defamed or done in by any appropriate
                              measures.

                              I hope this was helpful. It is entirely your right to digress or
                              otherwise.

                              Terence Nunis
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: Christopher Bobo
                              To: Wisdom Forum
                              Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 7:43 AM
                              Subject: Re:! [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew


                              To me this sounds like another argument to give war a chance, to
                              let
                              it run it's course until one side is victorious and the other is
                              vanquished.

                              Of course, this whole thing with the land is ambiguous too.
                              When
                              the
                              Jews were moving to the area before and after World War II, they were
                              not
                              taking land by force--they were buying it. Then when the British
                              pulled
                              out
                              and the U.N. voted for partition, the Palestinians rejected that
                              settlement
                              that involved two states. Many Palestinians simply abandoned their
                              land
                              and
                              fled to Arab countries like Lebanon and Jordan, no doubt thinking they
                              could
                              return when the Arabs beat the Israelis in war. Of course, the problem
                              was
                              that the Israelis won the war, so they took all that abandoned land.
                              The
                              Israelis did not expell any Palestinians and those who stayed ke! pt
                              their
                              property. As time went on, the Israeli Jews bought more Palestinian
                              property and arguably bull-do! zed the homes of some suspected
                              terrorists.
                              Truthfully, I don't think I ever heard tell of the Israeli's taking
                              land
                              by
                              force.

                              At some point, the Palestinians who fled decided that they
                              wanted
                              to
                              return to the property they had abandoned to begin with. Of course,
                              the
                              problem with that is by then the property had been taken over by
                              Israeli
                              settlers--and why not, it had been abandoned since the late 40s.

                              Am I wrong about this? The story Terence tells seem to only
                              have
                              a
                              loose connection with the facts and to blithely skip over some
                              important
                              distinctions.

                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: Sayf Uddeen Fariis @ Terence Kenneth John Nu! nis
                              Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 4:03 PM
                              To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew

                              suicide bombing does not resolve conflicts, it only worsen it.


                              Tell that to someone who has to ive in Palestine. How would
                              you
                              feel if someone came up to you and! said that the land you lived in for
                              hundreds of years is not your but belonged to them 2,00 years ago. The
                              then
                              proceed to take it by force. The courts just give condemnation but the
                              neighbours d! on't do anything. The fellas in the next neighbourhood
                              arm
                              him and take away your weapons?

                              We can talk all we want and condemn and give every reason from
                              the
                              allegedly Biblical to philosophical. It is typical human hubris to
                              assume
                              that we can emphatise with everything even though we don't have all the
                              facts. There has to be a reason why people would celebrate sending
                              their
                              sons and daughters to die.

                              Isn't one man's terrorist, another's freedom figghter? Bush,
                              Powell, Sharon, Arafat, Hussein, ! Saddam and every body will have
                              their
                              say
                              but it's never going to stop the Palestinian issue. Some advocate
                              statehood. Others advocate the immediate destruction of the State of
                              Israel. Not jus! t some Muslims but some Jews. And everybody's got a
                              reason.

                              The entire international community is to blame in some degree
                              or
                              other for the current state of events. And to think it all started
                              with
                              Theodore Herzl's vision.

                              Terence Nunis
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: james tan
                              To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 2:12 AM
                              Subject: [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew



                              am not sure if talking about neo-nazism and jewish
                              conspiracies
                              could be
                              considered as a degeneration; after all, such beliefs, if
                              held
                              by
                              people no
                              matter how irrational, could produce actions which are
                              unwise.
                              and though i
                              could understand ur attempt to empathize with the
                              palestinians
                              (same here),
                              to say that we should celebrate the 'heroism' of sucide
                              bombers
                              is too hot a
                              tea to swallow, at least for me. just becaus! e a man has a
                              sad
                              history is no
                              reason for us to condone his murderous activity for revenge,
                              let
                              alone to
                              celebrate it. a better way can be worked out, but to condone
                              an
                              eye for an
                              eye seems maladative! in the long run (what does it achieve
                              really). suicide
                              bombing does not resolve conflicts, it only worsen it.

                              james.


                              From: Tommy Beavitt <tommy@...>
                              Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                              To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew
                              Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 12:40:26 +0100

                              I am sorry that this forum has degenerated into stuff about
                              neo-nazis
                              and Jewish conspiracies. Unfortunately that says more about
                              the
                              times
                              we live in, I think, than any lack of rationality on the
                              part
                              of
                              contributors.

                              With regard to the similarity to the ideas of Da! vid Duke
                              and
                              Adolph
                              Hitler, point taken, it is true. The difficulty is that what
                              we
                              are
                              discussing are the flagrant racist and terrorist policies
                              being
                              adopted by the zionist entity, the state of Israel.
                              Of course Hitler was wrong to conclude that the reason for
                              the
                              inequity faced by ordinary Germans in the 1930s was the
                              fault
                              of
                              the
                              Jews. People who have Jewish blood running through their
                              veins
                              are
                              not essentially different from you and I in any way
                              whatsoever.
                              So
                              it was completely irrational (not to say immoral) to select
                              for
                              the
                              innmates of Auschwitz and Belsen those people who were
                              believed
                              to be
                              of Jewish blood.

                              This does not necessarily invalidate some of the arguments
                              supporting
                              the premises upon which this racist creed was constructed.
                              In
                              other
                              words, Germany in the 20s and 30s was indeed the unfortunate
                              victim
                              of a zionist conspiracy.

                              It is for very good reasons that we agree to deprecate
                              racism
                              as
                              acriteria for judging whether another human being is a friend or an
                              enemy. Such thinking leads to disaster for the human race
                              and
                              civilisation on a far more serious scale than conflict based
                              on
                              other
                              criter! ia.

                              Unfortunately this self-same error was perpetuated in the
                              aftermath
                              of the Second World War and especially in 1948 with the
                              creation
                              of a
                              state which has racism written into its constitution. In a
                              move
                              which
                              almost belies belief (and to a certain extent mitigates the
                              racist
                              rhetoric of Hitler in the 30s) the Allied Powers connived in
                              the
                              creation and maintenance of a state which bases its
                              immigration
                              policy on the criterion of whether the applicant has Jewish
                              blood
                              running through his or her veins. There is absolutely no
                              justication
                              or precedent for this in the modern world and we should all
                              agree
                              that Israel as it stands has no more right to exist in the
                              modern
                              world than apartheid South Africa had.

                              Until this is! agreed by the international community and
                              Israel
                              is
                              reconstitued to give equal rights of citizenship to all of
                              its
                              residents there can be no peace in the land of Palestine and
                              we
                              should celebrate the heroism ! of Palestinian suicide
                              bombers
                              in
                              their
                              valiant attempts to obtain justice in the face of
                              overwhelming
                              oppressive force.

                              It may also be that partitioning the land of Palestine to
                              give
                              a
                              state to Palestinians with a viable economy and borders it
                              can
                              defend
                              against its Israeli neighbours will be a necessary step to
                              ensure
                              that peace becomes possible.

                              Tommy Beavitt


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                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • james tan
                              eduard, my problem with that minister s viewpoint is actually quite simple. for all his ministerial status, he sees that value (such as patriotism) as
                              Message 14 of 16 , Apr 12, 2002
                                eduard,

                                my problem with that minister's viewpoint is actually quite simple. for all
                                his ministerial status, he sees that value (such as patriotism) as identical
                                to medical treatment in which something is 'done to' the patient. he does
                                not see that such acts (of patriotism) cannot be done without consent. he
                                thinks that when the govt speaks, all will accept. i find his paternalistic
                                attitude presumptious. it is not so much that i disagree with what he says
                                about patriotism (in this case) but his anger that contrary ideas is being
                                entertained at all in the privacy of the mind of the lad. he is a mighty
                                ostrich with his head buried nonetheless. and while he is correct that the
                                country need men to fight, the coercive element about mind control he
                                subsconsciously assumed make the citizens look stupid and mindless, making
                                himself a sham, of a ministerial proportion.

                                james.

                                From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                                Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                Subject: RE: [existlist] Antisemite and Jew
                                Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 11:23:01 -0400

                                james,

                                There are to types of people who are involved in war. The older adults who
                                are too old to fight, but identify the need for war. And the younger who
                                are sent out to do the killing or whatever. In one sense, both of these
                                roles are valid. A society has right to defend itself. I would grant that
                                the term "defend" is open to interpretation. The US involvement in Vietnam
                                was sold on the basis of defense, in that it is better to stop the communist
                                hordes at a distance before they get to the streets of Washington DC. We
                                are both aware that this position was open to question, but it does not
                                change the point that a society does at times go to war.

                                When a society goes to war, it is not the role of the younger to question
                                the reason. This is the purpose of the older generation. I can hear the
                                groans as other read that last sentence, but it is true. There is a point
                                at which one might make a protest, but ultimately the society cannot
                                function if at each stage its direction is questioned. But then I am only
                                speaking here of the dynamics of a society and not whether in the end its
                                direction is correct or not. Actually, I should think that what is going on
                                the middle east is of this order. The Palestinian youth live in a close
                                knot society which due to a commonality of religion that binds the members
                                together, the youth see a clear purpose in suicide bombing. I watched
                                "Politically Incorrect" last night at which someone mentioned that the
                                reason why there is suicide bombings is because of the offer of a paradise
                                for an afterlife. But I don't think that religion itself has anything to do
                                with it. Rather it is simply that youth are opting for suicide bombing as
                                much as worker bees are prepared to give their lives in defending the hive.

                                eduard
                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
                                Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 9:45 AM
                                To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [existlist] Antisemite and Jew



                                eduard,

                                u have a good pt there. recently there is a little debate in my country
                                about patriotism. a son of a certain minister or member of parliment
                                (can't
                                remember which) asked his father why should he die for singapore? when e
                                question was raised, it aroused the 'righteous' anger of another certain
                                minister that such question should be raised at all. "of course we should
                                die for our country; i will be the first one to send my 2 sons to go and
                                fight, and if necessary, die..". this minister sort of 'take it for
                                granted'
                                that all men in singapore will want to die for their countries, and his
                                own
                                passion (if mere passionate rhetoric is not cheap) seems proof of it. he
                                was
                                cynical that such question by the young lad could be asked at all (as if
                                he
                                think he, or for that matter, anybody, could control thoughts and values;
                                there is a curious mixture of ministerial self-righteousness and naive
                                denial of the psychology of man, not to mention his total lack of
                                experience
                                and actual ignorance of the reality of practical situation of war). i am
                                not
                                saying he is wrong, but i was just wondering if he only really know what
                                fighting in a war is like, will he be as quick in his action as his
                                rhetoric? and did he think by disallowing such discussion as brought out
                                by
                                the lad, that people will not think? and just because he hold dear a
                                certain
                                value that all people will likewise hold as dear? i know i am digressing
                                here, but can't help thinking about him at this pt. if only he knew, he
                                wouldn't be so quick.

                                james.


                                From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                                Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                Subject: RE: [existlist] Antisemite and Jew
                                Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 00:39:59 -0400

                                james,

                                The reason why they could write, in the old days, that in war it would be
                                sweet and fitting to die, is because they did not have CNN there to video
                                tape the thing. The young would be marched off to some military tune and
                                they would be young enough to not have memories of the last conflict. I
                                once bought an old picture of two Canadian soldiers who appeared pleased
                                in
                                their new uniforms prior to heading off to WW1 in Europe. One of my
                                uncles
                                marched off to the war in Europe and in return my father got a nice short
                                government letter saying that he had been killed ... and by the way, here
                                is
                                a neat copper plaque to remember him by. Perhaps if CNN were there, less
                                of
                                the nation's young would be willing to do the marching. The bottom line
                                is
                                that countries tend to embark upon a war because they convince themselves
                                that it will be easy. A good example is the German run at Russian in
                                WW2.
                                It was going to be a piece of cake, and they did not even think to
                                prepare
                                for the coming winter. That is why there are so many Palestinians lost
                                out
                                in 1948. The feeling was that they would leave their property for
                                perhaps
                                a
                                week or so and then move back in when the Israelis were defeated. There
                                is
                                such a thing as reaping the whirlwind.

                                eduard
                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
                                Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 11:43 PM
                                To: Fateha@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [existlist] Antisemite and Jew


                                From: "Sayf Uddeen Fariis @ Terence Kenneth John Nunis"
                                <terence_nunis@...>
                                Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                                To: <WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com>
                                Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew
                                Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 03:15:50 +0800

                                Chris,

                                I think it is right to say that not all Israelis are to blame. The
                                first
                                and second aliyas were very surprised to discover that Palestine was
                                not
                                a
                                desert country as people like Baron Rothschild had led them to
                                beleive.
                                They were Ashkenazi Jews fleeing persecution in Romania and Russia.
                                They
                                were poor and they were desperate.

                                Even now in Israel, there are many sectors of the population who
                                deplore
                                the
                                Occupation and seek peace with the Arabs. Many of them were born
                                there
                                and
                                they can't simply be kicked out. It is unfair to blame the children
                                for
                                the
                                sins of the fathers.

                                Most of the problems are started by the newer settlers who build their
                                settlements on relatively recently seized land. Many of the
                                far-rightist
                                from the United States (mostly). Their aggression in the face of the
                                complicity of the Israeli government have provoked a people to lash
                                out
                                in
                                retaliation in the only way they know - terrorism, specifically,
                                suicide-bombing.

                                It is unfortunate that suicide bombing cannot differentiate between
                                the
                                innocent and the guilty, the young and the old. It is ironic that
                                Israel
                                is
                                now the target of the very form of terrorism practiced to found it by
                                groups
                                like the Stern Gang and the Irgun. History repeats itself. And those
                                who
                                do not learn the lessons of the past and apply it to the present are
                                bound
                                to repeat it in the future.

                                They wrote in the old days that it is sweet and fitting to die for
                                one's
                                country. But in modern war, there is nothing sweet nor fitting in your
                                dying. You will die like a dog for no good reason.

                                Ernest Hemmingway


                                Terence Nunis
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: Christopher Bobo
                                To: Wisdom Forum
                                Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 1:54 AM
                                Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew


                                Terence,

                                That was very helpful and I appreciate your efforts to educate me
                                on
                                this
                                subject. You appear to have studied this matter extensively. Truly,
                                the
                                first step toward wisdom is getting the facts right, so your
                                assistance
                                is
                                invaluable.

                                I do, note, however, that you seem to fault all Israelis with the
                                acts
                                of
                                Jewish terrorist and extremist groups. Clearly, the deliberate
                                killing
                                of
                                civilians is just wrong and cannot be tolerated by any civilized
                                standard.
                                Even the rules of war prohibit the unnecessary killing of civilians.
                                You
                                point to the role of Menachin Begin, but he apparently later repented
                                his
                                hardline stance and sought to make peace witht he Palestinians.
                                Surely,
                                we
                                must allow that people can change and repent of their past misdeeds
                                and
                                try
                                to make amends for them. What's more, we cannot carry a grievance
                                forever.
                                At some point, I think the pas! t must be set aside and people agree
                                to
                                go
                                into the future based upon some accomodation that can be made in the
                                present. Don't you agree?

                                Whether you agree or not, thank you for your contribution. It's
                                truly
                                a
                                pleasure to hear from one as knowledgeable as yourself on a matter of
                                such
                                urgent importance. And to conclude with a final philosophical
                                afterthought,
                                so to speak, although I have been suggesting that this may be a time
                                where
                                the only recourse for rational parties is resort to war, I am reminded
                                of
                                the Kant's words against the possibility for a rational justification
                                for
                                war as an oxymoron, when he said "But the homage which each state pays
                                (at
                                least in words) to the concept of law proves that there is slumbering
                                in
                                man
                                an even greater moral disposition to become master of the evil
                                principle
                                in
                                himself (which he cannot disclaim) and to hope for the same from
                                others."
                                Perhpas that slumbering moral disposition to! a perpetual peace will
                                eventually show itself among the participants in the Middle East
                                conflict
                                and the rest of us can give up our worrying and concern.

                                With many thanks,
                                Chris

                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: Sayf Uddeen Fariis @ Terence Kenneth John Nunis
                                Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 4:46 AM
                                To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew

                                Somehow I see it differently.

                                That the Jews started by buying land is true. The Ottoman Land
                                Code
                                of
                                1858. It was a sneaky way for the corrupt powers that be to benefit
                                at
                                the
                                expense of the peasantry. The Palestinian farmers owned the land for
                                centuries under the traditional form of lad tenure known as the
                                masha'a,
                                or
                                communal usufruct. The implications of the Land Code was that the
                                peasnats
                                could be deprived legally of the right to live and cultivate his land,
                                somethingt previously inalienable.

                                The 1858 legislation required the peasants to register their
                                ownership.
                                Something that illiterate peasants weren't as good at as the rich
                                lasndowners who pushed it through. ! These people registered the land
                                as
                                theirs and sold it to the Jewish Agency, who were a party to this
                                injustice.

                                No prizes for guessing what happened when Zionist Jews (not Jews,
                                there
                                is a distinction), came to seize 'their' land. And that's how they
                                got
                                their land in the beginning. to say that the Jews bought it is just a
                                small
                                part of the story. How they bought it is more important.

                                The United Nations General Assembly did not have that right in
                                their
                                constitution to vote for the partition of Palestine. That's something
                                conveniently forgotten. In the same vein the British had no right to
                                issue
                                the Balfour Declaration of 1917. To take away a land you did not own
                                to
                                give to a p! eople who did not own it save from some vague Biblical
                                reference to a Semitic race and fudging over other aspects of the
                                covenent
                                between Moses and God which I can go into excruciating detail over.
                                Detaiks
                                like the origins of the Ashkenazi as opposed to the Shephardim. How
                                can
                                the
                                Jews today claim to be the Jews of the Bible when they are not for the
                                most
                                part the descendents of the people thrown out by Titus in 67 AD? They
                                are
                                mostly the remmants of the Khazari.

                                The King-Crane Commisiion was despatched at the end of WWII by
                                Woodrow
                                Wilson to assess the claims of the Zionists, the Arabs, the French and
                                the
                                British. Here are some intersting findings of that commission: -
                                1.. 90% of the inhabitants of Palestine were non-Jewish and
                                opposed
                                the formation of! a Jewsish State.
                                2.. If given Palestine, the 'Zionists looked forward to
                                practically
                                complete disposession of the present non-Jewish inhabitants'.
                                3.. The King-Crane Comission stated that the proposed Jewish
                                state
                                would violate the Palestinian right to self-determination. They
                                recommended
                                that the Zionists respect Palestinian wishes and find somewhere else.
                                When Chiam Weizman, President of the World Zionist Congres
                                declared
                                Palestine as 'a country without a people for a people without a
                                country',
                                it
                                was a manifest lie and he was aware of it.

                                The Arab-Israeli Wars were always a case of David versus Goliath
                                but
                                the 'David' in questi! on were the Arabs. The Palestinians did not
                                abandon
                                their land. Incidents like Deir Yassin in April, 1948, forced them to
                                flee
                                in terror. Do you know what happened in deir Yassin? While the
                                yopung
                                men
                                worked in the fields, 254 geriartics, womern and children, including
                                babies,
                                were butchered and thrown down the village wells. They dynamited the
                                houses, looted and rpaed amongst other noble deeds for the 'return of
                                Israel'. The leadership of the Irgun command, the perpetrators
                                proclaimed,
                                'as in deir Yassin, so everywhere'. Do you know who led the massacre?
                                He
                                was Menachem Begin, twice-elected Premier.

                                I have a whole catalogue of incidents from my modest research.
                                From
                                extracts of the de-classified CIA reports to a few historical records
                                and
                                quotes from the leaders of the early Zionist movemen! t. I wanted to
                                find
                                out the truth. Having worked in the government before, I neve trusted
                                official news agencies. You want to find something out, you search
                                for
                                it
                                yourself. Sometimes, along the way, the truth is so startling you
                                change
                                your entire world view. That is traumatic.

                                One of the interesting things I learned is that contrary to what
                                most
                                people believe, there are a lot of Jews who opposed and still oppose
                                the
                                existence of Israel for varied reasons. The more religious because it
                                is
                                stated in their Scriptures that the State of Israel will not be
                                founded
                                again until the return of the Messiah. The non-Zionist Jews that
                                speak
                                out
                                too much tend to be killed, or defamed or done in by any appropriate
                                measures.

                                I hope this was helpful. It is entirely your right to digress or
                                otherwise.

                                Terence Nunis
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: Christopher Bobo
                                To: Wisdom Forum
                                Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 7:43 AM
                                Subject: Re:! [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew


                                To me this sounds like another argument to give war a chance,
                                to
                                let
                                it run it's course until one side is victorious and the other is
                                vanquished.

                                Of course, this whole thing with the land is ambiguous too.
                                When
                                the
                                Jews were moving to the area before and after World War II, they were
                                not
                                taking land by force--they were buying it. Then when the British
                                pulled
                                out
                                and the U.N. voted for partition, the Palestinians rejected that
                                settlement
                                that involved two states. Many Palestinians simply abandoned their
                                land
                                and
                                fled to Arab countries like Lebanon and Jordan, no doubt thinking they
                                could
                                return when the Arabs beat the Israelis in war. Of course, the
                                problem
                                was
                                that the Israelis won the war, so they took all that abandoned land.
                                The
                                Israelis did not expell any Palestinians and those who stayed ke! pt
                                their
                                property. As time went on, the Israeli Jews bought more Palestinian
                                property and arguably bull-do! zed the homes of some suspected
                                terrorists.
                                Truthfully, I don't think I ever heard tell of the Israeli's taking
                                land
                                by
                                force.

                                At some point, the Palestinians who fled decided that they
                                wanted
                                to
                                return to the property they had abandoned to begin with. Of course,
                                the
                                problem with that is by then the property had been taken over by
                                Israeli
                                settlers--and why not, it had been abandoned since the late 40s.

                                Am I wrong about this? The story Terence tells seem to only
                                have
                                a
                                loose connection with the facts and to blithely skip over some
                                important
                                distinctions.

                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: Sayf Uddeen Fariis @ Terence Kenneth John Nu! nis
                                Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 4:03 PM
                                To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew

                                suicide bombing does not resolve conflicts, it only worsen
                                it.


                                Tell that to someone who has to ive in Palestine. How would
                                you
                                feel if someone came up to you and! said that the land you lived in
                                for
                                hundreds of years is not your but belonged to them 2,00 years ago.
                                The
                                then
                                proceed to take it by force. The courts just give condemnation but
                                the
                                neighbours d! on't do anything. The fellas in the next neighbourhood
                                arm
                                him and take away your weapons?

                                We can talk all we want and condemn and give every reason
                                from
                                the
                                allegedly Biblical to philosophical. It is typical human hubris to
                                assume
                                that we can emphatise with everything even though we don't have all
                                the
                                facts. There has to be a reason why people would celebrate sending
                                their
                                sons and daughters to die.

                                Isn't one man's terrorist, another's freedom figghter? Bush,
                                Powell, Sharon, Arafat, Hussein, ! Saddam and every body will have
                                their
                                say
                                but it's never going to stop the Palestinian issue. Some advocate
                                statehood. Others advocate the immediate destruction of the State of
                                Israel. Not jus! t some Muslims but some Jews. And everybody's got
                                a
                                reason.

                                The entire international community is to blame in some degree
                                or
                                other for the current state of events. And to think it all started
                                with
                                Theodore Herzl's vision.

                                Terence Nunis
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: james tan
                                To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 2:12 AM
                                Subject: [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew



                                am not sure if talking about neo-nazism and jewish
                                conspiracies
                                could be
                                considered as a degeneration; after all, such beliefs, if
                                held
                                by
                                people no
                                matter how irrational, could produce actions which are
                                unwise.
                                and though i
                                could understand ur attempt to empathize with the
                                palestinians
                                (same here),
                                to say that we should celebrate the 'heroism' of sucide
                                bombers
                                is too hot a
                                tea to swallow, at least for me. just becaus! e a man has a
                                sad
                                history is no
                                reason for us to condone his murderous activity for
                                revenge,
                                let
                                alone to
                                celebrate it. a better way can be worked out, but to
                                condone
                                an
                                eye for an
                                eye seems maladative! in the long run (what does it achieve
                                really). suicide
                                bombing does not resolve conflicts, it only worsen it.

                                james.


                                From: Tommy Beavitt <tommy@...>
                                Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                                To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [WisdomForum] Antisemite and Jew
                                Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 12:40:26 +0100

                                I am sorry that this forum has degenerated into stuff about
                                neo-nazis
                                and Jewish conspiracies. Unfortunately that says more about
                                the
                                times
                                we live in, I think, than any lack of rationality on the
                                part
                                of
                                contributors.

                                With regard to the similarity to the ideas of Da! vid Duke
                                and
                                Adolph
                                Hitler, point taken, it is true. The difficulty is that
                                what
                                we
                                are
                                discussing are the flagrant racist and terrorist policies
                                being
                                adopted by the zionist entity, the state of Israel.
                                Of course Hitler was wrong to conclude that the reason for
                                the
                                inequity faced by ordinary Germans in the 1930s was the
                                fault
                                of
                                the
                                Jews. People who have Jewish blood running through their
                                veins
                                are
                                not essentially different from you and I in any way
                                whatsoever.
                                So
                                it was completely irrational (not to say immoral) to select
                                for
                                the
                                innmates of Auschwitz and Belsen those people who were
                                believed
                                to be
                                of Jewish blood.

                                This does not necessarily invalidate some of the arguments
                                supporting
                                the premises upon which this racist creed was constructed.
                                In
                                other
                                words, Germany in the 20s and 30s was indeed the
                                unfortunate
                                victim
                                of a zionist conspiracy.

                                It is for very good reasons that we agree to deprecate
                                racism
                                as
                                acriteria for judging whether another human being is a friend or an
                                enemy. Such thinking leads to disaster for the human race
                                and
                                civilisation on a far more serious scale than conflict
                                based
                                on
                                other
                                criter! ia.

                                Unfortunately this self-same error was perpetuated in the
                                aftermath
                                of the Second World War and especially in 1948 with the
                                creation
                                of a
                                state which has racism written into its constitution. In a
                                move
                                which
                                almost belies belief (and to a certain extent mitigates the
                                racist
                                rhetoric of Hitler in the 30s) the Allied Powers connived
                                in
                                the
                                creation and maintenance of a state which bases its
                                immigration
                                policy on the criterion of whether the applicant has Jewish
                                blood
                                running through his or her veins. There is absolutely no
                                justication
                                or precedent for this in the modern world and we should all
                                agree
                                that Israel as it stands has no more right to exist in the
                                modern
                                world than apartheid South Africa had.

                                Until this is! agreed by the international community and
                                Israel
                                is
                                reconstitued to give equal rights of citizenship to all of
                                its
                                residents there can be no peace in the land of Palestine
                                and
                                we
                                should celebrate the heroism ! of Palestinian suicide
                                bombers
                                in
                                their
                                valiant attempts to obtain justice in the face of
                                overwhelming
                                oppressive force.

                                It may also be that partitioning the land of Palestine to
                                give
                                a
                                state to Palestinians with a viable economy and borders it
                                can
                                defend
                                against its Israeli neighbours will be a necessary step to
                                ensure
                                that peace becomes possible.

                                Tommy Beavitt


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                              • Eduard Alf
                                james, I see your point. But the reality is that this is the way that some politicians think. I suppose one could qualify it as paternalistic. Perhaps it is
                                Message 15 of 16 , Apr 12, 2002
                                  james,

                                  I see your point. But the reality is that this is
                                  the way that some politicians think. I suppose
                                  one could qualify it as paternalistic. Perhaps it
                                  is more a matter of simple control. People who
                                  are in power, tend to focus on others who object
                                  to that control. That can occur in either
                                  maternalistic or paternalistic systems.

                                  eduard

                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
                                  Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2002 12:57 AM
                                  To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: [existlist] Antisemite and Jew



                                  eduard,

                                  my problem with that minister's viewpoint is
                                  actually quite simple. for all
                                  his ministerial status, he sees that value (such
                                  as patriotism) as identical
                                  to medical treatment in which something is 'done
                                  to' the patient. he does
                                  not see that such acts (of patriotism) cannot be
                                  done without consent. he
                                  thinks that when the govt speaks, all will accept.
                                  i find his paternalistic
                                  attitude presumptious. it is not so much that i
                                  disagree with what he says
                                  about patriotism (in this case) but his anger that
                                  contrary ideas is being
                                  entertained at all in the privacy of the mind of
                                  the lad. he is a mighty
                                  ostrich with his head buried nonetheless. and
                                  while he is correct that the
                                  country need men to fight, the coercive element
                                  about mind control he
                                  subsconsciously assumed make the citizens look
                                  stupid and mindless, making
                                  himself a sham, of a ministerial proportion.

                                  james.

                                  From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                                  Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                  To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Subject: RE: [existlist] Antisemite and Jew
                                  Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 11:23:01 -0400

                                  james,

                                  There are to types of people who are involved in
                                  war. The older adults who
                                  are too old to fight, but identify the need for
                                  war. And the younger who
                                  are sent out to do the killing or whatever. In
                                  one sense, both of these
                                  roles are valid. A society has right to defend
                                  itself. I would grant that
                                  the term "defend" is open to interpretation. The
                                  US involvement in Vietnam
                                  was sold on the basis of defense, in that it is
                                  better to stop the communist
                                  hordes at a distance before they get to the
                                  streets of Washington DC. We
                                  are both aware that this position was open to
                                  question, but it does not
                                  change the point that a society does at times go
                                  to war.

                                  When a society goes to war, it is not the role of
                                  the younger to question
                                  the reason. This is the purpose of the older
                                  generation. I can hear the
                                  groans as other read that last sentence, but it is
                                  true. There is a point
                                  at which one might make a protest, but ultimately
                                  the society cannot
                                  function if at each stage its direction is
                                  questioned. But then I am only
                                  speaking here of the dynamics of a society and not
                                  whether in the end its
                                  direction is correct or not. Actually, I should
                                  think that what is going on
                                  the middle east is of this order. The Palestinian
                                  youth live in a close
                                  knot society which due to a commonality of
                                  religion that binds the members
                                  together, the youth see a clear purpose in suicide
                                  bombing. I watched
                                  "Politically Incorrect" last night at which
                                  someone mentioned that the
                                  reason why there is suicide bombings is because of
                                  the offer of a paradise
                                  for an afterlife. But I don't think that religion
                                  itself has anything to do
                                  with it. Rather it is simply that youth are
                                  opting for suicide bombing as
                                  much as worker bees are prepared to give their
                                  lives in defending the hive.

                                  eduard
                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
                                  Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 9:45 AM
                                  To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: [existlist] Antisemite and Jew



                                  eduard,

                                  u have a good pt there. recently there is a
                                  little debate in my country
                                  about patriotism. a son of a certain minister
                                  or member of parliment
                                  (can't
                                  remember which) asked his father why should he
                                  die for singapore? when e
                                  question was raised, it aroused the 'righteous'
                                  anger of another certain
                                  minister that such question should be raised at
                                  all. "of course we should
                                  die for our country; i will be the first one to
                                  send my 2 sons to go and
                                  fight, and if necessary, die..". this minister
                                  sort of 'take it for
                                  granted'
                                  that all men in singapore will want to die for
                                  their countries, and his
                                  own
                                  passion (if mere passionate rhetoric is not
                                  cheap) seems proof of it. he
                                  was
                                  cynical that such question by the young lad
                                  could be asked at all (as if
                                  he
                                  think he, or for that matter, anybody, could
                                  control thoughts and values;
                                  there is a curious mixture of ministerial
                                  self-righteousness and naive
                                  denial of the psychology of man, not to mention
                                  his total lack of
                                  experience
                                  and actual ignorance of the reality of
                                  practical situation of war). i am
                                  not
                                  saying he is wrong, but i was just wondering if
                                  he only really know what
                                  fighting in a war is like, will he be as quick
                                  in his action as his
                                  rhetoric? and did he think by disallowing such
                                  discussion as brought out
                                  by
                                  the lad, that people will not think? and just
                                  because he hold dear a
                                  certain
                                  value that all people will likewise hold as
                                  dear? i know i am digressing
                                  here, but can't help thinking about him at this
                                  pt. if only he knew, he
                                  wouldn't be so quick.

                                  james.


                                  From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                                  Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                  To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Subject: RE: [existlist] Antisemite and Jew
                                  Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 00:39:59 -0400

                                  james,

                                  The reason why they could write, in the old
                                  days, that in war it would be
                                  sweet and fitting to die, is because they did
                                  not have CNN there to video
                                  tape the thing. The young would be marched off
                                  to some military tune and
                                  they would be young enough to not have memories
                                  of the last conflict. I
                                  once bought an old picture of two Canadian
                                  soldiers who appeared pleased
                                  in
                                  their new uniforms prior to heading off to WW1
                                  in Europe. One of my
                                  uncles
                                  marched off to the war in Europe and in return
                                  my father got a nice short
                                  government letter saying that he had been
                                  killed ... and by the way, here
                                  is
                                  a neat copper plaque to remember him by.
                                  Perhaps if CNN were there, less
                                  of
                                  the nation's young would be willing to do the
                                  marching. The bottom line
                                  is
                                  that countries tend to embark upon a war
                                  because they convince themselves
                                  that it will be easy. A good example is the
                                  German run at Russian in
                                  WW2.
                                  It was going to be a piece of cake, and they
                                  did not even think to
                                  prepare
                                  for the coming winter. That is why there are
                                  so many Palestinians lost
                                  out
                                  in 1948. The feeling was that they would leave
                                  their property for
                                  perhaps
                                  a
                                  week or so and then move back in when the
                                  Israelis were defeated. There
                                  is
                                  such a thing as reaping the whirlwind.

                                  eduard
                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
                                  Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 11:43 PM
                                  To: Fateha@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: [existlist] Antisemite and Jew


                                  From: "Sayf Uddeen Fariis @ Terence Kenneth
                                  John Nunis"
                                  <terence_nunis@...>
                                  Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                                  To: <WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Antisemite and
                                  Jew
                                  Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 03:15:50 +0800

                                  Chris,

                                  I think it is right to say that not all
                                  Israelis are to blame. The
                                  first
                                  and second aliyas were very surprised to
                                  discover that Palestine was
                                  not
                                  a
                                  desert country as people like Baron
                                  Rothschild had led them to
                                  beleive.
                                  They were Ashkenazi Jews fleeing persecution
                                  in Romania and Russia.
                                  They
                                  were poor and they were desperate.

                                  Even now in Israel, there are many sectors
                                  of the population who
                                  deplore
                                  the
                                  Occupation and seek peace with the Arabs.
                                  Many of them were born
                                  there
                                  and
                                  they can't simply be kicked out. It is
                                  unfair to blame the children
                                  for
                                  the
                                  sins of the fathers.

                                  Most of the problems are started by the
                                  newer settlers who build their
                                  settlements on relatively recently seized
                                  land. Many of the
                                  far-rightist
                                  from the United States (mostly). Their
                                  aggression in the face of the
                                  complicity of the Israeli government have
                                  provoked a people to lash
                                  out
                                  in
                                  retaliation in the only way they know -
                                  terrorism, specifically,
                                  suicide-bombing.

                                  It is unfortunate that suicide bombing
                                  cannot differentiate between
                                  the
                                  innocent and the guilty, the young and the
                                  old. It is ironic that
                                  Israel
                                  is
                                  now the target of the very form of terrorism
                                  practiced to found it by
                                  groups
                                  like the Stern Gang and the Irgun. History
                                  repeats itself. And those
                                  who
                                  do not learn the lessons of the past and
                                  apply it to the present are
                                  bound
                                  to repeat it in the future.

                                  They wrote in the old days that it is sweet
                                  and fitting to die for
                                  one's
                                  country. But in modern war, there is nothing
                                  sweet nor fitting in your
                                  dying. You will die like a dog for no good
                                  reason.

                                  Ernest Hemmingway


                                  Terence Nunis
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: Christopher Bobo
                                  To: Wisdom Forum
                                  Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 1:54 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Antisemite and
                                  Jew


                                  Terence,

                                  That was very helpful and I appreciate
                                  your efforts to educate me
                                  on
                                  this
                                  subject. You appear to have studied this
                                  matter extensively. Truly,
                                  the
                                  first step toward wisdom is getting the
                                  facts right, so your
                                  assistance
                                  is
                                  invaluable.

                                  I do, note, however, that you seem to
                                  fault all Israelis with the
                                  acts
                                  of
                                  Jewish terrorist and extremist groups.
                                  Clearly, the deliberate
                                  killing
                                  of
                                  civilians is just wrong and cannot be
                                  tolerated by any civilized
                                  standard.
                                  Even the rules of war prohibit the
                                  unnecessary killing of civilians.
                                  You
                                  point to the role of Menachin Begin, but he
                                  apparently later repented
                                  his
                                  hardline stance and sought to make peace
                                  witht he Palestinians.
                                  Surely,
                                  we
                                  must allow that people can change and repent
                                  of their past misdeeds
                                  and
                                  try
                                  to make amends for them. What's more, we
                                  cannot carry a grievance
                                  forever.
                                  At some point, I think the pas! t must be
                                  set aside and people agree
                                  to
                                  go
                                  into the future based upon some accomodation
                                  that can be made in the
                                  present. Don't you agree?

                                  Whether you agree or not, thank you for
                                  your contribution. It's
                                  truly
                                  a
                                  pleasure to hear from one as knowledgeable
                                  as yourself on a matter of
                                  such
                                  urgent importance. And to conclude with a
                                  final philosophical
                                  afterthought,
                                  so to speak, although I have been suggesting
                                  that this may be a time
                                  where
                                  the only recourse for rational parties is
                                  resort to war, I am reminded
                                  of
                                  the Kant's words against the possibility for
                                  a rational justification
                                  for
                                  war as an oxymoron, when he said "But the
                                  homage which each state pays
                                  (at
                                  least in words) to the concept of law proves
                                  that there is slumbering
                                  in
                                  man
                                  an even greater moral disposition to become
                                  master of the evil
                                  principle
                                  in
                                  himself (which he cannot disclaim) and to
                                  hope for the same from
                                  others."
                                  Perhpas that slumbering moral disposition
                                  to! a perpetual peace will
                                  eventually show itself among the
                                  participants in the Middle East
                                  conflict
                                  and the rest of us can give up our worrying
                                  and concern.

                                  With many thanks,
                                  Chris

                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: Sayf Uddeen Fariis @ Terence
                                  Kenneth John Nunis
                                  Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 4:46 AM
                                  To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [WisdomForum] Antisemite
                                  and Jew

                                  Somehow I see it differently.

                                  That the Jews started by buying land is
                                  true. The Ottoman Land
                                  Code
                                  of
                                  1858. It was a sneaky way for the corrupt
                                  powers that be to benefit
                                  at
                                  the
                                  expense of the peasantry. The Palestinian
                                  farmers owned the land for
                                  centuries under the traditional form of lad
                                  tenure known as the
                                  masha'a,
                                  or
                                  communal usufruct. The implications of the
                                  Land Code was that the
                                  peasnats
                                  could be deprived legally of the right to
                                  live and cultivate his land,
                                  somethingt previously inalienable.

                                  The 1858 legislation required the
                                  peasants to register their
                                  ownership.
                                  Something that illiterate peasants weren't
                                  as good at as the rich
                                  lasndowners who pushed it through. ! These
                                  people registered the land
                                  as
                                  theirs and sold it to the Jewish Agency, who
                                  were a party to this
                                  injustice.

                                  No prizes for guessing what happened
                                  when Zionist Jews (not Jews,
                                  there
                                  is a distinction), came to seize 'their'
                                  land. And that's how they
                                  got
                                  their land in the beginning. to say that
                                  the Jews bought it is just a
                                  small
                                  part of the story. How they bought it is
                                  more important.

                                  The United Nations General Assembly did
                                  not have that right in
                                  their
                                  constitution to vote for the partition of
                                  Palestine. That's something
                                  conveniently forgotten. In the same vein
                                  the British had no right to
                                  issue
                                  the Balfour Declaration of 1917. To take
                                  away a land you did not own
                                  to
                                  give to a p! eople who did not own it save
                                  from some vague Biblical
                                  reference to a Semitic race and fudging over
                                  other aspects of the
                                  covenent
                                  between Moses and God which I can go into
                                  excruciating detail over.
                                  Detaiks
                                  like the origins of the Ashkenazi as opposed
                                  to the Shephardim. How
                                  can
                                  the
                                  Jews today claim to be the Jews of the Bible
                                  when they are not for the
                                  most
                                  part the descendents of the people thrown
                                  out by Titus in 67 AD? They
                                  are
                                  mostly the remmants of the Khazari.

                                  The King-Crane Commisiion was
                                  despatched at the end of WWII by
                                  Woodrow
                                  Wilson to assess the claims of the Zionists,
                                  the Arabs, the French and
                                  the
                                  British. Here are some intersting findings
                                  of that commission: -
                                  1.. 90% of the inhabitants of
                                  Palestine were non-Jewish and
                                  opposed
                                  the formation of! a Jewsish State.
                                  2.. If given Palestine, the 'Zionists
                                  looked forward to
                                  practically
                                  complete disposession of the present
                                  non-Jewish inhabitants'.
                                  3.. The King-Crane Comission stated
                                  that the proposed Jewish
                                  state
                                  would violate the Palestinian right to
                                  self-determination. They
                                  recommended
                                  that the Zionists respect Palestinian wishes
                                  and find somewhere else.
                                  When Chiam Weizman, President of the
                                  World Zionist Congres
                                  declared
                                  Palestine as 'a country without a people for
                                  a people without a
                                  country',
                                  it
                                  was a manifest lie and he was aware of it.

                                  The Arab-Israeli Wars were always a
                                  case of David versus Goliath
                                  but
                                  the 'David' in questi! on were the Arabs.
                                  The Palestinians did not
                                  abandon
                                  their land. Incidents like Deir Yassin in
                                  April, 1948, forced them to
                                  flee
                                  in terror. Do you know what happened in
                                  deir Yassin? While the
                                  yopung
                                  men
                                  worked in the fields, 254 geriartics, womern
                                  and children, including
                                  babies,
                                  were butchered and thrown down the village
                                  wells. They dynamited the
                                  houses, looted and rpaed amongst other noble
                                  deeds for the 'return of
                                  Israel'. The leadership of the Irgun
                                  command, the perpetrators
                                  proclaimed,
                                  'as in deir Yassin, so everywhere'. Do you
                                  know who led the massacre?
                                  He
                                  was Menachem Begin, twice-elected Premier.

                                  I have a whole catalogue of incidents
                                  from my modest research.
                                  From
                                  extracts of the de-classified CIA reports to
                                  a few historical records
                                  and
                                  quotes from the leaders of the early Zionist
                                  movemen! t. I wanted to
                                  find
                                  out the truth. Having worked in the
                                  government before, I neve trusted
                                  official news agencies. You want to find
                                  something out, you search
                                  for
                                  it
                                  yourself. Sometimes, along the way, the
                                  truth is so startling you
                                  change
                                  your entire world view. That is traumatic.

                                  One of the interesting things I learned
                                  is that contrary to what
                                  most
                                  people believe, there are a lot of Jews who
                                  opposed and still oppose
                                  the
                                  existence of Israel for varied reasons. The
                                  more religious because it
                                  is
                                  stated in their Scriptures that the State of
                                  Israel will not be
                                  founded
                                  again until the return of the Messiah. The
                                  non-Zionist Jews that
                                  speak
                                  out
                                  too much tend to be killed, or defamed or
                                  done in by any appropriate
                                  measures.

                                  I hope this was helpful. It is
                                  entirely your right to digress or
                                  otherwise.

                                  Terence Nunis
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: Christopher Bobo
                                  To: Wisdom Forum
                                  Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 7:43
                                  AM
                                  Subject: Re:! [WisdomForum]
                                  Antisemite and Jew


                                  To me this sounds like another
                                  argument to give war a chance,
                                  to
                                  let
                                  it run it's course until one side is
                                  victorious and the other is
                                  vanquished.

                                  Of course, this whole thing with the
                                  land is ambiguous too.
                                  When
                                  the
                                  Jews were moving to the area before and
                                  after World War II, they were
                                  not
                                  taking land by force--they were buying it.
                                  Then when the British
                                  pulled
                                  out
                                  and the U.N. voted for partition, the
                                  Palestinians rejected that
                                  settlement
                                  that involved two states. Many Palestinians
                                  simply abandoned their
                                  land
                                  and
                                  fled to Arab countries like Lebanon and
                                  Jordan, no doubt thinking they
                                  could
                                  return when the Arabs beat the Israelis in
                                  war. Of course, the
                                  problem
                                  was
                                  that the Israelis won the war, so they took
                                  all that abandoned land.
                                  The
                                  Israelis did not expell any Palestinians and
                                  those who stayed ke! pt
                                  their
                                  property. As time went on, the Israeli Jews
                                  bought more Palestinian
                                  property and arguably bull-do! zed the homes
                                  of some suspected
                                  terrorists.
                                  Truthfully, I don't think I ever heard tell
                                  of the Israeli's taking
                                  land
                                  by
                                  force.

                                  At some point, the Palestinians who
                                  fled decided that they
                                  wanted
                                  to
                                  return to the property they had abandoned to
                                  begin with. Of course,
                                  the
                                  problem with that is by then the property
                                  had been taken over by
                                  Israeli
                                  settlers--and why not, it had been abandoned
                                  since the late 40s.

                                  Am I wrong about this? The story
                                  Terence tells seem to only
                                  have
                                  a
                                  loose connection with the facts and to
                                  blithely skip over some
                                  important
                                  distinctions.

                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: Sayf Uddeen Fariis @ Terence
                                  Kenneth John Nu! nis
                                  Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002
                                  4:03 PM
                                  To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [WisdomForum]
                                  Antisemite and Jew

                                  suicide bombing does not resolve
                                  conflicts, it only worsen
                                  it.


                                  Tell that to someone who has to ive
                                  in Palestine. How would
                                  you
                                  feel if someone came up to you and! said
                                  that the land you lived in
                                  for
                                  hundreds of years is not your but belonged
                                  to them 2,00 years ago.
                                  The
                                  then
                                  proceed to take it by force. The courts
                                  just give condemnation but
                                  the
                                  neighbours d! on't do anything. The fellas
                                  in the next neighbourhood
                                  arm
                                  him and take away your weapons?

                                  We can talk all we want and condemn
                                  and give every reason
                                  from
                                  the
                                  allegedly Biblical to philosophical. It is
                                  typical human hubris to
                                  assume
                                  that we can emphatise with everything even
                                  though we don't have all
                                  the
                                  facts. There has to be a reason why people
                                  would celebrate sending
                                  their
                                  sons and daughters to die.

                                  Isn't one man's terrorist,
                                  another's freedom figghter? Bush,
                                  Powell, Sharon, Arafat, Hussein, ! Saddam
                                  and every body will have
                                  their
                                  say
                                  but it's never going to stop the Palestinian
                                  issue. Some advocate
                                  statehood. Others advocate the immediate
                                  destruction of the State of
                                  Israel. Not jus! t some Muslims but some
                                  Jews. And everybody's got
                                  a
                                  reason.

                                  The entire international community
                                  is to blame in some degree
                                  or
                                  other for the current state of events. And
                                  to think it all started
                                  with
                                  Theodore Herzl's vision.

                                  Terence Nunis
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: james tan
                                  To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002
                                  2:12 AM
                                  Subject: [WisdomForum] Antisemite
                                  and Jew



                                  am not sure if talking about
                                  neo-nazism and jewish
                                  conspiracies
                                  could be
                                  considered as a degeneration;
                                  after all, such beliefs, if
                                  held
                                  by
                                  people no
                                  matter how irrational, could
                                  produce actions which are
                                  unwise.
                                  and though i
                                  could understand ur attempt to
                                  empathize with the
                                  palestinians
                                  (same here),
                                  to say that we should celebrate
                                  the 'heroism' of sucide
                                  bombers
                                  is too hot a
                                  tea to swallow, at least for me.
                                  just becaus! e a man has a
                                  sad
                                  history is no
                                  reason for us to condone his
                                  murderous activity for
                                  revenge,
                                  let
                                  alone to
                                  celebrate it. a better way can be
                                  worked out, but to
                                  condone
                                  an
                                  eye for an
                                  eye seems maladative! in the long
                                  run (what does it achieve
                                  really). suicide
                                  bombing does not resolve
                                  conflicts, it only worsen it.

                                  james.


                                  From: Tommy Beavitt
                                  <tommy@...>
                                  Reply-To:
                                  WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                                  To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: [WisdomForum] Antisemite
                                  and Jew
                                  Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 12:40:26
                                  +0100

                                  I am sorry that this forum has
                                  degenerated into stuff about
                                  neo-nazis
                                  and Jewish conspiracies.
                                  Unfortunately that says more about
                                  the
                                  times
                                  we live in, I think, than any
                                  lack of rationality on the
                                  part
                                  of
                                  contributors.

                                  With regard to the similarity to
                                  the ideas of Da! vid Duke
                                  and
                                  Adolph
                                  Hitler, point taken, it is true.
                                  The difficulty is that
                                  what
                                  we
                                  are
                                  discussing are the flagrant
                                  racist and terrorist policies
                                  being
                                  adopted by the zionist entity,
                                  the state of Israel.
                                  Of course Hitler was wrong to
                                  conclude that the reason for
                                  the
                                  inequity faced by ordinary
                                  Germans in the 1930s was the
                                  fault
                                  of
                                  the
                                  Jews. People who have Jewish
                                  blood running through their
                                  veins
                                  are
                                  not essentially different from
                                  you and I in any way
                                  whatsoever.
                                  So
                                  it was completely irrational (not
                                  to say immoral) to select
                                  for
                                  the
                                  innmates of Auschwitz and Belsen
                                  those people who were
                                  believed
                                  to be
                                  of Jewish blood.

                                  This does not necessarily
                                  invalidate some of the arguments
                                  supporting
                                  the premises upon which this
                                  racist creed was constructed.
                                  In
                                  other
                                  words, Germany in the 20s and 30s
                                  was indeed the
                                  unfortunate
                                  victim
                                  of a zionist conspiracy.

                                  It is for very good reasons that
                                  we agree to deprecate
                                  racism
                                  as
                                  acriteria for judging whether another human
                                  being is a friend or an
                                  enemy. Such thinking leads to
                                  disaster for the human race
                                  and
                                  civilisation on a far more
                                  serious scale than conflict
                                  based
                                  on
                                  other
                                  criter! ia.

                                  Unfortunately this self-same
                                  error was perpetuated in the
                                  aftermath
                                  of the Second World War and
                                  especially in 1948 with the
                                  creation
                                  of a
                                  state which has racism written
                                  into its constitution. In a
                                  move
                                  which
                                  almost belies belief (and to a
                                  certain extent mitigates the
                                  racist
                                  rhetoric of Hitler in the 30s)
                                  the Allied Powers connived
                                  in
                                  the
                                  creation and maintenance of a
                                  state which bases its
                                  immigration
                                  policy on the criterion of
                                  whether the applicant has Jewish
                                  blood
                                  running through his or her veins.
                                  There is absolutely no
                                  justication
                                  or precedent for this in the
                                  modern world and we should all
                                  agree
                                  that Israel as it stands has no
                                  more right to exist in the
                                  modern
                                  world than apartheid South Africa
                                  had.

                                  Until this is! agreed by the
                                  international community and
                                  Israel
                                  is
                                  reconstitued to give equal rights
                                  of citizenship to all of
                                  its
                                  residents there can be no peace
                                  in the land of Palestine
                                  and
                                  we
                                  should celebrate the heroism ! of
                                  Palestinian suicide
                                  bombers
                                  in
                                  their
                                  valiant attempts to obtain
                                  justice in the face of
                                  overwhelming
                                  oppressive force.

                                  It may also be that partitioning
                                  the land of Palestine to
                                  give
                                  a
                                  state to Palestinians with a
                                  viable economy and borders it
                                  can
                                  defend
                                  against its Israeli neighbours
                                  will be a necessary step to
                                  ensure
                                  that peace becomes possible.

                                  Tommy Beavitt


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