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Re: [existlist] Existentialism and the necessity of God...

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  • Tom J
    Doesn t morality almost entirely begin and end with other people? What good is a personal morality . What is often termed as brainwashing is inevitable,
    Message 1 of 13 , Jul 18, 2000
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      Doesn't morality almost entirely begin and end with other people? What good
      is a "personal morality".

      What is often termed as "brainwashing" is inevitable, you can't remove it.
      Even if you think that you have formed your own opinions, they were surely
      not based on totally original thoughts? We will still always, to an extent,
      be cogs in a machine.

      The uneducated are already developing a sense of what is right and wrong and
      the fact that it has no moral basis derived from respect for a superior
      being makes it all the more catastrophic. Directionless futility.

      Tom
    • Jared Frailey
      ... I believe everyone has the prejudice that they are right, and everyone else is wrong. :-) What I was trying to say is that if your opinion is that
      Message 2 of 13 , Jul 19, 2000
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        > By living your life "the way that you
        > want others to live", you are
        > saying that were anyone in your exact situation, you
        > would want them to (i.e.
        > you believe they "should") do exactly what you
        > decide to do.

        I believe everyone has the prejudice that they are
        right, and everyone else is wrong. :-) What I was
        trying to say is that if your opinion is that
        important to you, you shouldn't try to convert someone
        to your ideas but set an example. For example, I
        consider myself to be a pacifist. I don't believe in
        the use of violence for any purpose, but I arrived at
        this opinion on my own. By practicing pacifism, I set
        an example for humanity. The difference between my
        opinion and morality is that my opinions will not be
        maintained by the use of coercive measures by society,
        government, and religion. After all, coercion is
        violence. :-) And another difference between my
        opinions and morality is that I don't view my opinions
        as something "sacred." I can always change my
        opinions, but changing morality is almost impossible
        (I'm exaggerating). In other words, I am against
        morality, but I am for personal ideals and opinions.

        >I AM saying that we
        > need to give morality a little
        > more credit than "an opinion".

        I will give you that point: Morals are opinions with a
        history. :-)

        > But who's to say it's the "right" sense of right and
        > wrong? It would just be
        > another group of people, coming up with a morality
        > for you to question.

        Is there a right one? No. And why would it be a
        group effort? I have my own personal values, and they
        should have their own. As long as the individual
        isn't harming another person's freedom, the individual
        should not be restrained by morality or laws.

        > Even the Aborigines have a sort of society,
        > government, and religion. And my big
        > question is: does society, religion, etc. determine
        > morality, or does morality
        > determine society, religion, etc.

        My guess is that morality came first. :-)


        > Go anarchy! *gg*
        >
        > Anyways, that was my first post to the list, so nice
        > to meet you all. Can't wait
        > for more good discussions!

        Actually, I do consider myself to be an anarchist. I
        fit somewhere between an Individualist Anarchist and a
        Communist Anarchist. :-)

        Best Regards,
        Jared
      • Jared Frailey
        ... What good is a personal morality? Whatever good the individual can get out of it. I tend to enjoy producing my own morals (opinions, ideals, etc.) ... I
        Message 3 of 13 , Jul 19, 2000
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          > Doesn't morality almost entirely begin and end with
          > other people? What good
          > is a "personal morality".
          What good is a personal morality? Whatever good the
          individual can get out of it. I tend to enjoy
          producing my own morals (opinions, ideals, etc.)

          > What is often termed as "brainwashing" is
          > inevitable, you can't remove it.
          > Even if you think that you have formed your own
          > opinions, they were surely
          > not based on totally original thoughts? We will
          > still always, to an extent,
          > be cogs in a machine.

          I concede that "brainwashing" is inevitable if you are
          in contact with other individuals, society, religion,
          or government. My opinions are not based enitirely on
          my own original thoughts, but the formation of my
          opinions was an active venture: I sought and analyzed
          the opinions of others. Morality is an inactive
          process: the individual absorbs the opinions of
          others.

          > The uneducated are already developing a sense of
          > what is right and wrong and
          > the fact that it has no moral basis derived from
          > respect for a superior
          > being makes it all the more catastrophic.
          > Directionless futility.


          Catastrophic in what way? Is it because they are not
          developing in a direction that you would have them go?


          The uneducated people, that I know personally, derive
          all of their values and morals from their church, the
          members of their church, and other community members.
          This to me does seem directionless. My ideal would be
          where every individual decided what would be "good"
          and "evil" to them personally. There seems more
          personal direction in my ideal, but societal,
          governmental, and religious direction would fade.

          Best Regards,
          Jared
        • Amber Leigh Griffioen
          ... So if I go through an exhaustive mental process and decide that, to me personally, it would be OK to hit another person in the head with a baseball bat,
          Message 4 of 13 , Jul 20, 2000
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            Jared Frailey <lostmaia@...> writes:

            > The uneducated people, that I know personally, derive
            > all of their values and morals from their church, the
            > members of their church, and other community members.
            > This to me does seem directionless. My ideal would be
            > where every individual decided what would be "good"
            > and "evil" to them personally. There seems more
            > personal direction in my ideal, but societal,
            > governmental, and religious direction would fade.

            So if I go through an exhaustive mental process and decide that, to me personally,
            it would be OK to hit another person in the head with a baseball bat, you'd
            support that because it was my own personal idea of "good"? Because as soon as
            you step in and say it's not OK, you are imposing some sort of moral law over me.

            Sorry if I'm nitpicking,

            *Devil's Advocate*

            * * * * * * * * * * * * *
            "I am no bird; and no net ensnares me; I am a free human being with an
            independent will, which I now exert to leave you." -Jane Eyre
            * * * * * * * * * * * * *
            Amber Griffioen
            griffioe@...
            amber_griffs@...
            http://www.geocities.com/amber_griffs
          • Jared Frailey
            As long as you are not harming another person s freedom, you should be free to act on or think what you wish. I wouldn t be allowed to lock someone in a cage
            Message 5 of 13 , Jul 20, 2000
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              As long as you are not harming another person's
              freedom, you should be free to act on or think what
              you wish. I wouldn't be allowed to lock someone in a
              cage or kill them, but I would be free to do anything
              that does not harm another person's freedom. :-)


              --- Amber Leigh Griffioen <griffioe@...> wrote:
              > Jared Frailey <lostmaia@...> writes:
              >
              > > The uneducated people, that I know personally,
              > derive
              > > all of their values and morals from their church,
              > the
              > > members of their church, and other community
              > members.
              > > This to me does seem directionless. My ideal
              > would be
              > > where every individual decided what would be
              > "good"
              > > and "evil" to them personally. There seems more
              > > personal direction in my ideal, but societal,
              > > governmental, and religious direction would fade.
              >
              > So if I go through an exhaustive mental process and
              > decide that, to me personally,
              > it would be OK to hit another person in the head
              > with a baseball bat, you'd
              > support that because it was my own personal idea of
              > "good"? Because as soon as
              > you step in and say it's not OK, you are imposing
              > some sort of moral law over me.
              >
              > Sorry if I'm nitpicking,
              >
              > *Devil's Advocate*
              >
              > * * * * * * * * * * * * *
              > "I am no bird; and no net ensnares me; I am a free
              > human being with an
              > independent will, which I now exert to leave you."
              > -Jane Eyre
              > * * * * * * * * * * * * *
              > Amber Griffioen
              > griffioe@...
              > amber_griffs@...
              > http://www.geocities.com/amber_griffs
              >


              =====
              Best wishes,
              Frailey


              ----------------------
              Revering the universe, caring for nature, celebrating life -
              The World Pantheist Movement: http://www.pantheism.net/index.htm
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