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RE: Digest Number 28

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  • Wachter, Eligius
    please change my email address to guild015@aol.com and please delete this one from the list at your earliest convenience. thanks. Lige. ... From:
    Message 1 of 1 , Aug 27, 1999
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      please change my email address to guild015@...
      and please delete this one from the list at your earliest convenience.
      thanks. Lige.

      -----Original Message-----
      From: existlist@onelist.com [mailto:existlist@onelist.com]
      Sent: Friday, August 27, 1999 5:16 AM
      To: existlist@onelist.com
      Subject: [existlist] Digest Number 28



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      From The Exist List...
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      There are 4 messages in this issue.

      Topics in today's digest:

      1. New email
      From: C Borel <cborel@...>
      2. Fw: Rainbow Question
      From: "Charles Vermont" <Funchoice@...>
      3. Re: Fw: Rainbow Question
      From: Gretchyn Lenger <lenger@...>
      4. Re: Fw: Rainbow Question
      From: "T Brooks" <thom_brooks@...>


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      Message: 1
      Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 09:02:05 -0400
      From: C Borel <cborel@...>
      Subject: New email

      I've created a temporary account at hotmail;
      christinaborel@...

      while I'm waiting for the UCONN software to show up. Please reach me
      here if you need to get in touch with me :)
      Love,
      Christina


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      Message: 2
      Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 10:41:28 +0100
      From: "Charles Vermont" <Funchoice@...>
      Subject: Fw: Rainbow Question

      For those who missed it the first time around:


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Charles Vermont <Funchoice@...>
      To: Existentialism List <existlist@onelist.com>
      Date: 22 August 1999 10:34
      Subject: Rainbow Question


      On 17th August I outlined the following situation:

      >>>You are General Violet, head of the armed forces of a country called
      Indigo. Indigo has the following characteristics:

      a.. It is a less developed nation with a GDP per head in the bottom
      quartile for the world
      b.. Five families own most of the agricultural and industrial companies
      in the country. These are the Blues, the Greens, the Yellows and the Oranges
      and your family, the Violets, the richest of the lot.
      c.. The system of government is democratic, but for a member of one of
      the great five to hold the presidency would upset the delicate power balance
      between them. Therefore the President is your brother in law, Mr. Red. He
      has no power base but is also related to all the other four families.
      Indigo is suffering from a period of poor economic performance. This is
      leading to rioting in the cities. The trade unions are demanding more money
      and jobs for their members. The President refuses to take any action, afraid
      of upsetting any one of the five families. As a result the Blues and Greens
      have formed an alliance against the Oranges and Yellows. Both are training
      militia men on their estates and have already bought a large amount of
      weaponry. This rivalry is polarising the country, and even your
      grandchildren are being jostled at school because they refuse to take sides
      (as per your instructions). More sinisterly, the various Blues, Greens,
      Oranges and Yellows who lead the army, navy and air force are plotting
      against each other.

      The US and British ambassadors have visited. They put pressure on you to act
      to prevent wide-scale civil unrest. They hint at the possibility of a
      'peace-keeping' mission whether you want one or not.

      Overthrowing the democratically elected President and imposing martial law
      will inevitably mean the detention of hundreds of conspirators and thousands
      of letters from Amnesty International. Supporting him may mean your ejection
      from the military high command and the other families ganging up on yours.
      There is also the possibility of a 'friendly' intervention from Nato.

      Following existentialist principles, what would you choose to do?<<<

      For me this situation is about the companion of freedom, namely
      responsibility. The Blues, Greens, Oranges and Yellows are all acting in a
      way which undermines the stability of Indigo's government. Unless General
      Violet imposes martial law then there is likely to be insurrection, civil
      war, and a great deal of bloodshed. However, if he does take this action
      then the result will also be bloodshed, so he's damned if he does and damned
      if he doesn't.

      If I was General Violet I would reason as follows: The stability of the very
      fabric of Indigo's society is at risk here. Without that stability there
      will be a major reduction in the freedom of choice. By this I mean that if
      civil war occurs there will be shortages of food, water and housing, and the
      price of life will be very cheap. In such circumstances the mass of the
      population will have little choice but to search out the necessities of
      life, a situation which they mostly do not face at the moment. Under martial
      law there will be a significant reduction in choice over freedom of speech
      and freedom of association. For many there will also be political detention
      and very little freedom except the choice to commit suicide. However, there
      will still be more freedom of choice in Indigo under martial law than if a
      civil war erupts.

      This line of reasoning leads me to the conclusion that Indigo has tried the
      freer political atmosphere of democracy but the population has not taken
      sufficient responsibility for it. In other words, a new system has been
      tried and the people have been found wanting. Perhaps the problem lies with
      the five families who control the reigns of power in Indigo, perhaps it lies
      with their allies and followers, but the stark truth is that democracy has
      failed this time.

      As someone committed to freedom of choice I want to minimise the effect on
      Indigo of the failure of democracy so we can try it again as soon as
      possible and this time succeed. Therefore I would impose martial law.

      Returning to my own thoughts on this situation, I am not entirely happy with
      my suggestion. It seems to me it is a utilitarian approach since I am saying
      that what matters is the maximisation of freedom of choice in Indigo. I
      don't know why I am uncomfortable with this and would appreciate some input
      from others on the list.

      Charles Vermont
      London, UK





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      Message: 3
      Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 13:44:09 -0700
      From: Gretchyn Lenger <lenger@...>
      Subject: Re: Fw: Rainbow Question

      Okay Charles, i like the premise but the hypothetical is difficult. You
      call this a democracy but it seems to be more of an aristocracy if 5
      families own a majority of the wealth. If as Gen Violet my true motivation
      was the greatest freedom for all, wouldn't i rather break up the five to
      benefit the many, distribute the wealth - including my own - and go more
      socialist? Of course, then it would be Cuba and I have an embargo to deal
      with, right?
      But the most authentic choice Violet could make is an equal distribution,
      even of his own, if that's his primary motivation.


      At 10:41 AM 8/26/1999 +0100, you wrote:
      > For those who missed it the first time around: -----Original
      >Message-----
      >From: <Funchoice@...>
      >To: <existlist@onelist.com>
      >Date: 22 August 1999 10:34
      >Subject: Rainbow Question
      >
      > On 17th August I outlined the following situation: >>>You are General
      >Violet, head of the armed forces of a country called Indigo. Indigo has
      >the following characteristics: It is a less developed nation with a
      >GDP per head in the bottom quartile for the world Five families
      >own most of the agricultural and industrial companies in the country.
      >These are the Blues, the Greens, the Yellows and the Oranges and your
      >family, the Violets, the richest of the lot. The system of government
      >is democratic, but for a member of one of the great five to hold the
      >presidency would upset the delicate power balance between them.
      >Therefore the President is your brother in law, Mr. Red. He has no
      >power base but is also related to all the other four families. Indigo
      >is suffering from a period of poor economic performance. This is leading
      >to rioting in the cities. The trade unions are demanding more money and
      >jobs for their members. The President refuses to take any action, afraid
      >of upsetting any one of the five families. As a result the Blues and
      >Greens have formed an alliance against the Oranges and Yellows. Both are
      >training militia men on their estates and have already bought a large
      >amount of weaponry. This rivalry is polarising the country, and even your
      >grandchildren are being jostled at school because they refuse to take
      >sides (as per your instructions). More sinisterly, the various Blues,
      >Greens, Oranges and Yellows who lead the army, navy and air force are
      >plotting against each other. civil unrest. They hint at the
      >possibility of a 'peace-keeping' mission whether you want one or not.
      >Overthrowing the democratically elected President and imposing martial law
      >will inevitably mean the detention of hundreds of conspirators and
      >thousands of letters from Amnesty International. Supporting him may mean
      >your ejection from the military high command and the other families
      >ganging up on yours. There is also the possibility of a 'friendly'
      >intervention from Nato. <<< For me this situation is about the
      >companion of freedom, namely responsibility. The Blues, Greens, Oranges
      >and Yellows are all acting in a way which undermines the stability of
      >Indigo's government. Unless General Violet imposes martial law then there
      >is likely to be insurrection, civil war, and a great deal of bloodshed.
      >However, if he does take this action then the result will also be
      >bloodshed, so he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. If I was
      >General Violet I would reason as follows: The stability of the very fabric
      >of Indigo's society is at risk here. Without that stability there will be
      >a major reduction in the freedom of choice. By this I mean that if civil
      >war occurs there will be shortages of food, water and housing, and the
      >price of life will be very cheap. In such circumstances the mass of the
      >population will have little choice but to search out the necessities of
      >life, a situation which they mostly do not face at the moment. Under
      >martial law there will be a significant reduction in choice over freedom
      >of speech and freedom of association. For many there will also be
      >political detention and very little freedom except the choice to commit
      >suicide. However, there will still be more freedom of choice in Indigo
      >under martial law than if a civil war erupts. This line of reasoning
      >leads me to the conclusion that Indigo has tried the freer political
      >atmosphere of democracy but the population has not taken sufficient
      >responsibility for it. In other words, a new system has been tried and the
      >people have been found wanting. Perhaps the problem lies with the five
      >families who control the reigns of power in Indigo, perhaps it lies with
      >their allies and followers, but the stark truth is that democracy has
      >failed this time. As someone committed to freedom of choice I want to
      >minimise the effect on Indigo of the failure of democracy so we can try it
      >again as soon as possible and this time succeed. Therefore I would impose
      >martial law. Returning to my own thoughts on this situation, I am not
      >entirely happy with my suggestion. It seems to me it is a utilitarian
      >approach since I am saying that what matters is the maximisation of
      >freedom of choice in Indigo. I don't know why I am uncomfortable with this
      >and would appreciate some input from others on the list. Charles Vermont
      >London, UK
      Gretchyn Lenger
      USC/ITV, OHE 108
      Los Angeles, CA 90089


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      Message: 4
      Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 04:38:08 IST
      From: "T Brooks" <thom_brooks@...>
      Subject: Re: Fw: Rainbow Question

      Why not simply leave military life, for one (citing Camus' "Neither Victim
      Nor Executioner": I am a lover, not a fighter), and perhaps do one of two
      other things: (1) begin a movement to leave this warped democratic state or
      (2) begin a movement for popular reform of the system, such as instituting
      proportional representation (to counter strength of just five families) and
      try to change from presidential system to parliamentary.

      Noone said solutions had to be easy.

      Thom Brooks
      Dublin, Ireland



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