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RE: [existlist] Re: [WisdomForum] Re: Choice and Action

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  • Eduard Alf
    james, that s ok ... By the way, the breast thing did not work out. I am searching for another focus ... might get there eventually. I created a new web site
    Message 1 of 9 , Mar 2, 2002
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      james,

      that's ok ...

      By the way, the breast thing did not work out. I
      am searching for another focus ... might get there
      eventually.

      I created a new web site at:
      http://seeingflowers.homestead.com/index.html ...
      to develop and present my philosophy ...

      eduard



      -----Original Message-----
      From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
      Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2002 9:46 PM
      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: [WisdomForum] Re:
      Choice and Action



      oh,...u felt that i shouted at u? i didn't, and my
      apology for ur feeling.

      james.


      From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
      Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
      Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: [WisdomForum] Re:
      Choice and Action
      Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 21:54:56 -0500

      you don't have to shout
      -----Original Message-----
      From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
      Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2002 9:38 PM
      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: [WisdomForum] Re:
      Choice and Action



      hi eduard,

      i already know YOUR view. thanks.

      james.


      From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
      Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
      Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: [WisdomForum] Re:
      Choice and Action
      Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 14:40:20 -0500

      james,

      We are back into the same discussion as before.
      Regards of Sartre, my
      view
      is that "good" and "right" is absolute and
      separately determined from
      man.
      If I ask the question, "Does the sun rise in
      the east", then it is right
      even if there is no man on earth.

      eduard
      -----Original Message-----
      From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
      Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 10:08 PM
      To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [existlist] Re: [WisdomForum] Re:
      Choice and Action



      if i don't understand sartre wrongly, there
      is no absolute or
      metaphysical
      validity to what is 'good' except in man,
      more specifically in the
      freedom
      of man; ie, it is defined by man. it is
      therefore not so much that we
      do
      something because it is good, but it is good
      because we do it (i.e.
      define
      it by our choice and action).

      james.


      From: "swmaerske" <SWMirsky@...>
      Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
      To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [WisdomForum] Re: Choice and Action
      Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 22:33:39 -0000

      Although you are missing my point in the way
      I am using the term, I
      will not belabor it. In the interests of
      kicking this discussion off
      and moving onto some substantive issues, I
      will accept your desire to
      avoid the term "game" for now. Let's roll.
      What's a right? What
      is "good"? What is moral? How do we add
      content to these terms and
      which content is the correct content? And
      how do we know? And can we
      ever really know? -- SWM










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    • james tan
      saw ur homepage. i thought that is cute, but honestly, a bit weird... it is fun... james.. From: Eduard Alf Reply-To:
      Message 2 of 9 , Mar 2, 2002
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        saw ur homepage. i thought that is cute, but honestly, a bit weird... it is
        fun...

        james..


        From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
        Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
        Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: [WisdomForum] Re: Choice and Action
        Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 22:11:44 -0500

        james,

        that's ok ...

        By the way, the breast thing did not work out. I
        am searching for another focus ... might get there
        eventually.

        I created a new web site at:
        http://seeingflowers.homestead.com/index.html ...
        to develop and present my philosophy ...

        eduard



        -----Original Message-----
        From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
        Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2002 9:46 PM
        To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: [WisdomForum] Re:
        Choice and Action



        oh,...u felt that i shouted at u? i didn't, and my
        apology for ur feeling.

        james.


        From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
        Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
        Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: [WisdomForum] Re:
        Choice and Action
        Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 21:54:56 -0500

        you don't have to shout
        -----Original Message-----
        From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
        Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2002 9:38 PM
        To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: [WisdomForum] Re:
        Choice and Action



        hi eduard,

        i already know YOUR view. thanks.

        james.


        From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
        Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
        Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: [WisdomForum] Re:
        Choice and Action
        Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 14:40:20 -0500

        james,

        We are back into the same discussion as before.
        Regards of Sartre, my
        view
        is that "good" and "right" is absolute and
        separately determined from
        man.
        If I ask the question, "Does the sun rise in
        the east", then it is right
        even if there is no man on earth.

        eduard
        -----Original Message-----
        From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
        Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 10:08 PM
        To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [existlist] Re: [WisdomForum] Re:
        Choice and Action



        if i don't understand sartre wrongly, there
        is no absolute or
        metaphysical
        validity to what is 'good' except in man,
        more specifically in the
        freedom
        of man; ie, it is defined by man. it is
        therefore not so much that we
        do
        something because it is good, but it is good
        because we do it (i.e.
        define
        it by our choice and action).

        james.


        From: "swmaerske" <SWMirsky@...>
        Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
        To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [WisdomForum] Re: Choice and Action
        Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 22:33:39 -0000

        Although you are missing my point in the way
        I am using the term, I
        will not belabor it. In the interests of
        kicking this discussion off
        and moving onto some substantive issues, I
        will accept your desire to
        avoid the term "game" for now. Let's roll.
        What's a right? What
        is "good"? What is moral? How do we add
        content to these terms and
        which content is the correct content? And
        how do we know? And can we
        ever really know? -- SWM










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      • Eduard Alf
        james, Actually it is done in all seriousness. I am utilizing the funny side of things, because laughter, as they say, is a sort of medicine. Laughter allows
        Message 3 of 9 , Mar 3, 2002
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          james,

          Actually it is done in all seriousness. I am
          utilizing the funny side of things, because
          laughter, as they say, is a sort of medicine.
          Laughter allows a break from the complexity of
          thinking. Sort of the common man's non-thinking.

          eduard

          -----Original Message-----
          From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
          Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2002 2:26 AM
          To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: [WisdomForum] Re:
          Choice and Action



          saw ur homepage. i thought that is cute, but
          honestly, a bit weird... it is
          fun...

          james.. Terms of Service.



          [Non-text portions of this message have been
          removed]










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        • james tan
          oh yes, intentionally or unconsciously, i have committed something i have talked about in the presentation itself: i have projected my subjective pt of view
          Message 4 of 9 , Mar 6, 2002
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            oh yes, intentionally or unconsciously, i have committed something i have
            talked about in the presentation itself: i have projected my subjective pt
            of view onto the objective. indeed, at the end of my previous post, i have
            presented humaneness as if it is the good, universally valid. that was a
            flop, a blunder; it is clear that it is not neutral. it has no basis other
            than my point of view. but i am fuzzy about what u meant by: "leave me
            unmoved as it (existentialism, as i render it) does not answer the real
            question (the content of ethics?)"; if u have in mind that existentialism
            should provide a set of moral values universally valid, or even something
            remotely what moore has done, i guess existentialism as i understand it is
            gonna disappoint u. existentialism, strictly speaking, is not even a
            philosophy, rather it is an attitude; it does not provide u with the 'what',
            rather it is infinitely more concerned with the 'how'; it is process more
            than content. if there is one word that may sum up, it is heidegger's
            "authenticity", in the broadest sense of the word, and authentic relative to
            each individuals. i am sorry to have introduced that contradiction u pointed
            out. u said that chris said morality is a social artifact; well, anything
            that is not in the objective is a artifact, or construct, be it social or
            personal; it serve a very human function of predicting and understanding the
            world for any course of action (independently of the metaphyical validity).

            james.

            From: "swmaerske" <SWMirsky@...>
            Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
            To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [WisdomForum] Re: Choice and Action
            Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 01:31:16 -0000

            So existentialism, as you have described it, offers us the ultimate
            form of moral relativism? And yet I note that, at the end of your
            presentation, you talk about man choosing humaneness, when he is free
            to choose and when he recognizes that freedom, as though "humaneness"
            were obviously a good thing. But without a concept of "good" how do
            we know "humaneness" is a good thing? Why is not inhumanity a good
            thing then, as well? How can you assume that this is preferable, or
            at least the more desirable outcome, since there is no basis for this
            claim? At bottom, though you argue for moral relativism, you promise
            a humaneness of values which, if nothing else, is certainly not
            neutral.

            Certainly your argument offers the proposition that a person
            espousing what we deem to be "bad" or "evil" will not see himself as
            bad, i.e., Hitler and bin Laden would both deny our charactersization
            of their views and actions as bad or wrong! And I agree with you,
            they would do that indeed! But my question is would they be justified
            in doing so? Though your explanation of the Existentialist view
            suggests they would, your claim ends with the implicit assertion that
            they would not. (At least not if humaneness is to be preferred.)

            And yet you seem to be asserting that they would be justified, if
            they did what they did sincerely and out of a sense of their freedom
            to make such choices.

            Similarly, Popper, per Chris, would have held they would have been
            justified within their own terms of seeing the world, though that set
            of terms may be shown, on the Popperian view, to be wrong empirically
            (though until it is shown to be wrong definitively, based on the
            evidence or a convincing empirically grounded argument, there is no
            reason to suppose it is wrong, hence there is no way to argue about
            the moral rightness or wrongness of their actions).

            In the case you present, it seems to me you are trying to have it
            both ways: you say there are not and cannot be moral standards and
            that the only good is to act in good faith, whatever you do, whether
            you kill millions wantonly or try to overrun the world, and yet, in
            the same presentation, you praise the result of such actions as
            leading, in the end, to humaneness, a clearly moral value. That is
            you are suggesting that people who act in good faith will,
            ultimately, choose not to wantonly destroy millions or to overrun the
            world. In an argument based on contradiction and paradox, such as
            Existentialism seems to love, I guess this makes sense. But it
            clearly doesn't stand up to careful analysis of what has been said.

            I do agree with you that religion is one of the historical bulwarks
            of morality though I think morality may actually pre-exist religion,
            or at least religion as we understand it today. Certainly, a morality
            that depends on a particular religious belief is highly problematic
            and suspect. In fact I think, like Chris and his idol, Popper, that
            morality is a social artifact, though I'm not sure I can agree with
            their ultimate formulation of it. But, certainly, Existentialism as
            you've sketched it out, while sounding intriguing for all its
            apparent contradictions and mysteriously obscure formulations, leaves
            me unmoved as it does not answer the real questions. In fact, it's
            clear to me that the moral premises that concern us in these sorts of
            discussions are already embedded quite deeply in the bedrock of the
            Existentialist argument and are there to be mined by the careful
            prospector.

            SWM









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