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RE: [existlist] Re: [WisdomForum] Re: Choice and Action

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  • james tan
    oh,...u felt that i shouted at u? i didn t, and my apology for ur feeling. james. From: Eduard Alf Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
    Message 1 of 9 , Mar 2, 2002
    • 0 Attachment
      oh,...u felt that i shouted at u? i didn't, and my apology for ur feeling.

      james.


      From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
      Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
      Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: [WisdomForum] Re: Choice and Action
      Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 21:54:56 -0500

      you don't have to shout
      -----Original Message-----
      From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
      Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2002 9:38 PM
      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: [WisdomForum] Re: Choice and Action



      hi eduard,

      i already know YOUR view. thanks.

      james.


      From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
      Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
      Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: [WisdomForum] Re: Choice and Action
      Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 14:40:20 -0500

      james,

      We are back into the same discussion as before. Regards of Sartre, my
      view
      is that "good" and "right" is absolute and separately determined from
      man.
      If I ask the question, "Does the sun rise in the east", then it is right
      even if there is no man on earth.

      eduard
      -----Original Message-----
      From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
      Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 10:08 PM
      To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [existlist] Re: [WisdomForum] Re: Choice and Action



      if i don't understand sartre wrongly, there is no absolute or
      metaphysical
      validity to what is 'good' except in man, more specifically in the
      freedom
      of man; ie, it is defined by man. it is therefore not so much that we
      do
      something because it is good, but it is good because we do it (i.e.
      define
      it by our choice and action).

      james.


      From: "swmaerske" <SWMirsky@...>
      Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
      To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [WisdomForum] Re: Choice and Action
      Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 22:33:39 -0000

      Although you are missing my point in the way I am using the term, I
      will not belabor it. In the interests of kicking this discussion off
      and moving onto some substantive issues, I will accept your desire to
      avoid the term "game" for now. Let's roll. What's a right? What
      is "good"? What is moral? How do we add content to these terms and
      which content is the correct content? And how do we know? And can we
      ever really know? -- SWM









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    • Eduard Alf
      you don t have to shout ... From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@hotmail.com] Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2002 9:38 PM To: existlist@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE:
      Message 2 of 9 , Mar 2, 2002
      • 0 Attachment
        you don't have to shout
        -----Original Message-----
        From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
        Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2002 9:38 PM
        To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: [WisdomForum] Re: Choice and Action



        hi eduard,

        i already know YOUR view. thanks.

        james.


        From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
        Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
        Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: [WisdomForum] Re: Choice and Action
        Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 14:40:20 -0500

        james,

        We are back into the same discussion as before. Regards of Sartre, my
        view
        is that "good" and "right" is absolute and separately determined from man.
        If I ask the question, "Does the sun rise in the east", then it is right
        even if there is no man on earth.

        eduard
        -----Original Message-----
        From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
        Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 10:08 PM
        To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [existlist] Re: [WisdomForum] Re: Choice and Action



        if i don't understand sartre wrongly, there is no absolute or
        metaphysical
        validity to what is 'good' except in man, more specifically in the
        freedom
        of man; ie, it is defined by man. it is therefore not so much that we
        do
        something because it is good, but it is good because we do it (i.e.
        define
        it by our choice and action).

        james.


        From: "swmaerske" <SWMirsky@...>
        Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
        To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [WisdomForum] Re: Choice and Action
        Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 22:33:39 -0000

        Although you are missing my point in the way I am using the term, I
        will not belabor it. In the interests of kicking this discussion off
        and moving onto some substantive issues, I will accept your desire to
        avoid the term "game" for now. Let's roll. What's a right? What
        is "good"? What is moral? How do we add content to these terms and
        which content is the correct content? And how do we know? And can we
        ever really know? -- SWM









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      • Eduard Alf
        james, that s ok ... By the way, the breast thing did not work out. I am searching for another focus ... might get there eventually. I created a new web site
        Message 3 of 9 , Mar 2, 2002
        • 0 Attachment
          james,

          that's ok ...

          By the way, the breast thing did not work out. I
          am searching for another focus ... might get there
          eventually.

          I created a new web site at:
          http://seeingflowers.homestead.com/index.html ...
          to develop and present my philosophy ...

          eduard



          -----Original Message-----
          From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
          Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2002 9:46 PM
          To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: [WisdomForum] Re:
          Choice and Action



          oh,...u felt that i shouted at u? i didn't, and my
          apology for ur feeling.

          james.


          From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
          Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
          Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: [WisdomForum] Re:
          Choice and Action
          Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 21:54:56 -0500

          you don't have to shout
          -----Original Message-----
          From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
          Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2002 9:38 PM
          To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: [WisdomForum] Re:
          Choice and Action



          hi eduard,

          i already know YOUR view. thanks.

          james.


          From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
          Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
          Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: [WisdomForum] Re:
          Choice and Action
          Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 14:40:20 -0500

          james,

          We are back into the same discussion as before.
          Regards of Sartre, my
          view
          is that "good" and "right" is absolute and
          separately determined from
          man.
          If I ask the question, "Does the sun rise in
          the east", then it is right
          even if there is no man on earth.

          eduard
          -----Original Message-----
          From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
          Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 10:08 PM
          To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [existlist] Re: [WisdomForum] Re:
          Choice and Action



          if i don't understand sartre wrongly, there
          is no absolute or
          metaphysical
          validity to what is 'good' except in man,
          more specifically in the
          freedom
          of man; ie, it is defined by man. it is
          therefore not so much that we
          do
          something because it is good, but it is good
          because we do it (i.e.
          define
          it by our choice and action).

          james.


          From: "swmaerske" <SWMirsky@...>
          Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
          To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [WisdomForum] Re: Choice and Action
          Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 22:33:39 -0000

          Although you are missing my point in the way
          I am using the term, I
          will not belabor it. In the interests of
          kicking this discussion off
          and moving onto some substantive issues, I
          will accept your desire to
          avoid the term "game" for now. Let's roll.
          What's a right? What
          is "good"? What is moral? How do we add
          content to these terms and
          which content is the correct content? And
          how do we know? And can we
          ever really know? -- SWM










          __________________________________________________
          _______________
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          http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


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          removed]










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        • james tan
          saw ur homepage. i thought that is cute, but honestly, a bit weird... it is fun... james.. From: Eduard Alf Reply-To:
          Message 4 of 9 , Mar 2, 2002
          • 0 Attachment
            saw ur homepage. i thought that is cute, but honestly, a bit weird... it is
            fun...

            james..


            From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
            Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
            Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: [WisdomForum] Re: Choice and Action
            Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 22:11:44 -0500

            james,

            that's ok ...

            By the way, the breast thing did not work out. I
            am searching for another focus ... might get there
            eventually.

            I created a new web site at:
            http://seeingflowers.homestead.com/index.html ...
            to develop and present my philosophy ...

            eduard



            -----Original Message-----
            From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
            Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2002 9:46 PM
            To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: [WisdomForum] Re:
            Choice and Action



            oh,...u felt that i shouted at u? i didn't, and my
            apology for ur feeling.

            james.


            From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
            Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
            Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: [WisdomForum] Re:
            Choice and Action
            Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 21:54:56 -0500

            you don't have to shout
            -----Original Message-----
            From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
            Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2002 9:38 PM
            To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: [WisdomForum] Re:
            Choice and Action



            hi eduard,

            i already know YOUR view. thanks.

            james.


            From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
            Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
            Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: [WisdomForum] Re:
            Choice and Action
            Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 14:40:20 -0500

            james,

            We are back into the same discussion as before.
            Regards of Sartre, my
            view
            is that "good" and "right" is absolute and
            separately determined from
            man.
            If I ask the question, "Does the sun rise in
            the east", then it is right
            even if there is no man on earth.

            eduard
            -----Original Message-----
            From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
            Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 10:08 PM
            To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [existlist] Re: [WisdomForum] Re:
            Choice and Action



            if i don't understand sartre wrongly, there
            is no absolute or
            metaphysical
            validity to what is 'good' except in man,
            more specifically in the
            freedom
            of man; ie, it is defined by man. it is
            therefore not so much that we
            do
            something because it is good, but it is good
            because we do it (i.e.
            define
            it by our choice and action).

            james.


            From: "swmaerske" <SWMirsky@...>
            Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
            To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [WisdomForum] Re: Choice and Action
            Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 22:33:39 -0000

            Although you are missing my point in the way
            I am using the term, I
            will not belabor it. In the interests of
            kicking this discussion off
            and moving onto some substantive issues, I
            will accept your desire to
            avoid the term "game" for now. Let's roll.
            What's a right? What
            is "good"? What is moral? How do we add
            content to these terms and
            which content is the correct content? And
            how do we know? And can we
            ever really know? -- SWM










            __________________________________________________
            _______________
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            http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


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          • Eduard Alf
            james, Actually it is done in all seriousness. I am utilizing the funny side of things, because laughter, as they say, is a sort of medicine. Laughter allows
            Message 5 of 9 , Mar 3, 2002
            • 0 Attachment
              james,

              Actually it is done in all seriousness. I am
              utilizing the funny side of things, because
              laughter, as they say, is a sort of medicine.
              Laughter allows a break from the complexity of
              thinking. Sort of the common man's non-thinking.

              eduard

              -----Original Message-----
              From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
              Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2002 2:26 AM
              To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: [WisdomForum] Re:
              Choice and Action



              saw ur homepage. i thought that is cute, but
              honestly, a bit weird... it is
              fun...

              james.. Terms of Service.



              [Non-text portions of this message have been
              removed]










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            • james tan
              oh yes, intentionally or unconsciously, i have committed something i have talked about in the presentation itself: i have projected my subjective pt of view
              Message 6 of 9 , Mar 6, 2002
              • 0 Attachment
                oh yes, intentionally or unconsciously, i have committed something i have
                talked about in the presentation itself: i have projected my subjective pt
                of view onto the objective. indeed, at the end of my previous post, i have
                presented humaneness as if it is the good, universally valid. that was a
                flop, a blunder; it is clear that it is not neutral. it has no basis other
                than my point of view. but i am fuzzy about what u meant by: "leave me
                unmoved as it (existentialism, as i render it) does not answer the real
                question (the content of ethics?)"; if u have in mind that existentialism
                should provide a set of moral values universally valid, or even something
                remotely what moore has done, i guess existentialism as i understand it is
                gonna disappoint u. existentialism, strictly speaking, is not even a
                philosophy, rather it is an attitude; it does not provide u with the 'what',
                rather it is infinitely more concerned with the 'how'; it is process more
                than content. if there is one word that may sum up, it is heidegger's
                "authenticity", in the broadest sense of the word, and authentic relative to
                each individuals. i am sorry to have introduced that contradiction u pointed
                out. u said that chris said morality is a social artifact; well, anything
                that is not in the objective is a artifact, or construct, be it social or
                personal; it serve a very human function of predicting and understanding the
                world for any course of action (independently of the metaphyical validity).

                james.

                From: "swmaerske" <SWMirsky@...>
                Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [WisdomForum] Re: Choice and Action
                Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 01:31:16 -0000

                So existentialism, as you have described it, offers us the ultimate
                form of moral relativism? And yet I note that, at the end of your
                presentation, you talk about man choosing humaneness, when he is free
                to choose and when he recognizes that freedom, as though "humaneness"
                were obviously a good thing. But without a concept of "good" how do
                we know "humaneness" is a good thing? Why is not inhumanity a good
                thing then, as well? How can you assume that this is preferable, or
                at least the more desirable outcome, since there is no basis for this
                claim? At bottom, though you argue for moral relativism, you promise
                a humaneness of values which, if nothing else, is certainly not
                neutral.

                Certainly your argument offers the proposition that a person
                espousing what we deem to be "bad" or "evil" will not see himself as
                bad, i.e., Hitler and bin Laden would both deny our charactersization
                of their views and actions as bad or wrong! And I agree with you,
                they would do that indeed! But my question is would they be justified
                in doing so? Though your explanation of the Existentialist view
                suggests they would, your claim ends with the implicit assertion that
                they would not. (At least not if humaneness is to be preferred.)

                And yet you seem to be asserting that they would be justified, if
                they did what they did sincerely and out of a sense of their freedom
                to make such choices.

                Similarly, Popper, per Chris, would have held they would have been
                justified within their own terms of seeing the world, though that set
                of terms may be shown, on the Popperian view, to be wrong empirically
                (though until it is shown to be wrong definitively, based on the
                evidence or a convincing empirically grounded argument, there is no
                reason to suppose it is wrong, hence there is no way to argue about
                the moral rightness or wrongness of their actions).

                In the case you present, it seems to me you are trying to have it
                both ways: you say there are not and cannot be moral standards and
                that the only good is to act in good faith, whatever you do, whether
                you kill millions wantonly or try to overrun the world, and yet, in
                the same presentation, you praise the result of such actions as
                leading, in the end, to humaneness, a clearly moral value. That is
                you are suggesting that people who act in good faith will,
                ultimately, choose not to wantonly destroy millions or to overrun the
                world. In an argument based on contradiction and paradox, such as
                Existentialism seems to love, I guess this makes sense. But it
                clearly doesn't stand up to careful analysis of what has been said.

                I do agree with you that religion is one of the historical bulwarks
                of morality though I think morality may actually pre-exist religion,
                or at least religion as we understand it today. Certainly, a morality
                that depends on a particular religious belief is highly problematic
                and suspect. In fact I think, like Chris and his idol, Popper, that
                morality is a social artifact, though I'm not sure I can agree with
                their ultimate formulation of it. But, certainly, Existentialism as
                you've sketched it out, while sounding intriguing for all its
                apparent contradictions and mysteriously obscure formulations, leaves
                me unmoved as it does not answer the real questions. In fact, it's
                clear to me that the moral premises that concern us in these sorts of
                discussions are already embedded quite deeply in the bedrock of the
                Existentialist argument and are there to be mined by the careful
                prospector.

                SWM









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