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RE: [existlist] Re: [WisdomForum] Re: Choice and Action

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  • Eduard Alf
    james, We are back into the same discussion as before. Regards of Sartre, my view is that good and right is absolute and separately determined from man.
    Message 1 of 9 , Mar 2, 2002
    • 0 Attachment
      james,

      We are back into the same discussion as before. Regards of Sartre, my view
      is that "good" and "right" is absolute and separately determined from man.
      If I ask the question, "Does the sun rise in the east", then it is right
      even if there is no man on earth.

      eduard
      -----Original Message-----
      From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
      Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 10:08 PM
      To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [existlist] Re: [WisdomForum] Re: Choice and Action



      if i don't understand sartre wrongly, there is no absolute or metaphysical
      validity to what is 'good' except in man, more specifically in the freedom
      of man; ie, it is defined by man. it is therefore not so much that we do
      something because it is good, but it is good because we do it (i.e. define
      it by our choice and action).

      james.


      From: "swmaerske" <SWMirsky@...>
      Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
      To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [WisdomForum] Re: Choice and Action
      Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 22:33:39 -0000

      Although you are missing my point in the way I am using the term, I
      will not belabor it. In the interests of kicking this discussion off
      and moving onto some substantive issues, I will accept your desire to
      avoid the term "game" for now. Let's roll. What's a right? What
      is "good"? What is moral? How do we add content to these terms and
      which content is the correct content? And how do we know? And can we
      ever really know? -- SWM









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    • james tan
      hi eduard, i already know YOUR view. thanks. james. From: Eduard Alf Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com To:
      Message 2 of 9 , Mar 2, 2002
      • 0 Attachment
        hi eduard,

        i already know YOUR view. thanks.

        james.


        From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
        Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
        Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: [WisdomForum] Re: Choice and Action
        Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 14:40:20 -0500

        james,

        We are back into the same discussion as before. Regards of Sartre, my view
        is that "good" and "right" is absolute and separately determined from man.
        If I ask the question, "Does the sun rise in the east", then it is right
        even if there is no man on earth.

        eduard
        -----Original Message-----
        From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
        Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 10:08 PM
        To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [existlist] Re: [WisdomForum] Re: Choice and Action



        if i don't understand sartre wrongly, there is no absolute or
        metaphysical
        validity to what is 'good' except in man, more specifically in the
        freedom
        of man; ie, it is defined by man. it is therefore not so much that we do
        something because it is good, but it is good because we do it (i.e.
        define
        it by our choice and action).

        james.


        From: "swmaerske" <SWMirsky@...>
        Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
        To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [WisdomForum] Re: Choice and Action
        Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 22:33:39 -0000

        Although you are missing my point in the way I am using the term, I
        will not belabor it. In the interests of kicking this discussion off
        and moving onto some substantive issues, I will accept your desire to
        avoid the term "game" for now. Let's roll. What's a right? What
        is "good"? What is moral? How do we add content to these terms and
        which content is the correct content? And how do we know? And can we
        ever really know? -- SWM









        _________________________________________________________________
        Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
        http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









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      • james tan
        oh,...u felt that i shouted at u? i didn t, and my apology for ur feeling. james. From: Eduard Alf Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        Message 3 of 9 , Mar 2, 2002
        • 0 Attachment
          oh,...u felt that i shouted at u? i didn't, and my apology for ur feeling.

          james.


          From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
          Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
          Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: [WisdomForum] Re: Choice and Action
          Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 21:54:56 -0500

          you don't have to shout
          -----Original Message-----
          From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
          Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2002 9:38 PM
          To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: [WisdomForum] Re: Choice and Action



          hi eduard,

          i already know YOUR view. thanks.

          james.


          From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
          Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
          Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: [WisdomForum] Re: Choice and Action
          Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 14:40:20 -0500

          james,

          We are back into the same discussion as before. Regards of Sartre, my
          view
          is that "good" and "right" is absolute and separately determined from
          man.
          If I ask the question, "Does the sun rise in the east", then it is right
          even if there is no man on earth.

          eduard
          -----Original Message-----
          From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
          Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 10:08 PM
          To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [existlist] Re: [WisdomForum] Re: Choice and Action



          if i don't understand sartre wrongly, there is no absolute or
          metaphysical
          validity to what is 'good' except in man, more specifically in the
          freedom
          of man; ie, it is defined by man. it is therefore not so much that we
          do
          something because it is good, but it is good because we do it (i.e.
          define
          it by our choice and action).

          james.


          From: "swmaerske" <SWMirsky@...>
          Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
          To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [WisdomForum] Re: Choice and Action
          Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 22:33:39 -0000

          Although you are missing my point in the way I am using the term, I
          will not belabor it. In the interests of kicking this discussion off
          and moving onto some substantive issues, I will accept your desire to
          avoid the term "game" for now. Let's roll. What's a right? What
          is "good"? What is moral? How do we add content to these terms and
          which content is the correct content? And how do we know? And can we
          ever really know? -- SWM









          _________________________________________________________________
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          http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


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        • Eduard Alf
          you don t have to shout ... From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@hotmail.com] Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2002 9:38 PM To: existlist@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE:
          Message 4 of 9 , Mar 2, 2002
          • 0 Attachment
            you don't have to shout
            -----Original Message-----
            From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
            Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2002 9:38 PM
            To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: [WisdomForum] Re: Choice and Action



            hi eduard,

            i already know YOUR view. thanks.

            james.


            From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
            Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
            Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: [WisdomForum] Re: Choice and Action
            Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 14:40:20 -0500

            james,

            We are back into the same discussion as before. Regards of Sartre, my
            view
            is that "good" and "right" is absolute and separately determined from man.
            If I ask the question, "Does the sun rise in the east", then it is right
            even if there is no man on earth.

            eduard
            -----Original Message-----
            From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
            Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 10:08 PM
            To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [existlist] Re: [WisdomForum] Re: Choice and Action



            if i don't understand sartre wrongly, there is no absolute or
            metaphysical
            validity to what is 'good' except in man, more specifically in the
            freedom
            of man; ie, it is defined by man. it is therefore not so much that we
            do
            something because it is good, but it is good because we do it (i.e.
            define
            it by our choice and action).

            james.


            From: "swmaerske" <SWMirsky@...>
            Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
            To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [WisdomForum] Re: Choice and Action
            Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 22:33:39 -0000

            Although you are missing my point in the way I am using the term, I
            will not belabor it. In the interests of kicking this discussion off
            and moving onto some substantive issues, I will accept your desire to
            avoid the term "game" for now. Let's roll. What's a right? What
            is "good"? What is moral? How do we add content to these terms and
            which content is the correct content? And how do we know? And can we
            ever really know? -- SWM









            _________________________________________________________________
            Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
            http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


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            ADVERTISEMENT




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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









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            ADVERTISEMENT




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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Eduard Alf
            james, that s ok ... By the way, the breast thing did not work out. I am searching for another focus ... might get there eventually. I created a new web site
            Message 5 of 9 , Mar 2, 2002
            • 0 Attachment
              james,

              that's ok ...

              By the way, the breast thing did not work out. I
              am searching for another focus ... might get there
              eventually.

              I created a new web site at:
              http://seeingflowers.homestead.com/index.html ...
              to develop and present my philosophy ...

              eduard



              -----Original Message-----
              From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
              Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2002 9:46 PM
              To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: [WisdomForum] Re:
              Choice and Action



              oh,...u felt that i shouted at u? i didn't, and my
              apology for ur feeling.

              james.


              From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
              Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: [WisdomForum] Re:
              Choice and Action
              Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 21:54:56 -0500

              you don't have to shout
              -----Original Message-----
              From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
              Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2002 9:38 PM
              To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: [WisdomForum] Re:
              Choice and Action



              hi eduard,

              i already know YOUR view. thanks.

              james.


              From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
              Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: [WisdomForum] Re:
              Choice and Action
              Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 14:40:20 -0500

              james,

              We are back into the same discussion as before.
              Regards of Sartre, my
              view
              is that "good" and "right" is absolute and
              separately determined from
              man.
              If I ask the question, "Does the sun rise in
              the east", then it is right
              even if there is no man on earth.

              eduard
              -----Original Message-----
              From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
              Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 10:08 PM
              To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [existlist] Re: [WisdomForum] Re:
              Choice and Action



              if i don't understand sartre wrongly, there
              is no absolute or
              metaphysical
              validity to what is 'good' except in man,
              more specifically in the
              freedom
              of man; ie, it is defined by man. it is
              therefore not so much that we
              do
              something because it is good, but it is good
              because we do it (i.e.
              define
              it by our choice and action).

              james.


              From: "swmaerske" <SWMirsky@...>
              Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
              To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [WisdomForum] Re: Choice and Action
              Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 22:33:39 -0000

              Although you are missing my point in the way
              I am using the term, I
              will not belabor it. In the interests of
              kicking this discussion off
              and moving onto some substantive issues, I
              will accept your desire to
              avoid the term "game" for now. Let's roll.
              What's a right? What
              is "good"? What is moral? How do we add
              content to these terms and
              which content is the correct content? And
              how do we know? And can we
              ever really know? -- SWM










              __________________________________________________
              _______________
              Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
              http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


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              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
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              more.)

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              Yahoo! Terms of Service.



              [Non-text portions of this message have been
              removed]










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            • james tan
              saw ur homepage. i thought that is cute, but honestly, a bit weird... it is fun... james.. From: Eduard Alf Reply-To:
              Message 6 of 9 , Mar 2, 2002
              • 0 Attachment
                saw ur homepage. i thought that is cute, but honestly, a bit weird... it is
                fun...

                james..


                From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: [WisdomForum] Re: Choice and Action
                Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 22:11:44 -0500

                james,

                that's ok ...

                By the way, the breast thing did not work out. I
                am searching for another focus ... might get there
                eventually.

                I created a new web site at:
                http://seeingflowers.homestead.com/index.html ...
                to develop and present my philosophy ...

                eduard



                -----Original Message-----
                From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
                Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2002 9:46 PM
                To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: [WisdomForum] Re:
                Choice and Action



                oh,...u felt that i shouted at u? i didn't, and my
                apology for ur feeling.

                james.


                From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: [WisdomForum] Re:
                Choice and Action
                Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 21:54:56 -0500

                you don't have to shout
                -----Original Message-----
                From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
                Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2002 9:38 PM
                To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: [WisdomForum] Re:
                Choice and Action



                hi eduard,

                i already know YOUR view. thanks.

                james.


                From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
                Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: [WisdomForum] Re:
                Choice and Action
                Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 14:40:20 -0500

                james,

                We are back into the same discussion as before.
                Regards of Sartre, my
                view
                is that "good" and "right" is absolute and
                separately determined from
                man.
                If I ask the question, "Does the sun rise in
                the east", then it is right
                even if there is no man on earth.

                eduard
                -----Original Message-----
                From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
                Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 10:08 PM
                To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [existlist] Re: [WisdomForum] Re:
                Choice and Action



                if i don't understand sartre wrongly, there
                is no absolute or
                metaphysical
                validity to what is 'good' except in man,
                more specifically in the
                freedom
                of man; ie, it is defined by man. it is
                therefore not so much that we
                do
                something because it is good, but it is good
                because we do it (i.e.
                define
                it by our choice and action).

                james.


                From: "swmaerske" <SWMirsky@...>
                Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [WisdomForum] Re: Choice and Action
                Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 22:33:39 -0000

                Although you are missing my point in the way
                I am using the term, I
                will not belabor it. In the interests of
                kicking this discussion off
                and moving onto some substantive issues, I
                will accept your desire to
                avoid the term "game" for now. Let's roll.
                What's a right? What
                is "good"? What is moral? How do we add
                content to these terms and
                which content is the correct content? And
                how do we know? And can we
                ever really know? -- SWM










                __________________________________________________
                _______________
                Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
                http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.


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                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
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                more.)

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                removed]










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              • Eduard Alf
                james, Actually it is done in all seriousness. I am utilizing the funny side of things, because laughter, as they say, is a sort of medicine. Laughter allows
                Message 7 of 9 , Mar 3, 2002
                • 0 Attachment
                  james,

                  Actually it is done in all seriousness. I am
                  utilizing the funny side of things, because
                  laughter, as they say, is a sort of medicine.
                  Laughter allows a break from the complexity of
                  thinking. Sort of the common man's non-thinking.

                  eduard

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
                  Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2002 2:26 AM
                  To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: [WisdomForum] Re:
                  Choice and Action



                  saw ur homepage. i thought that is cute, but
                  honestly, a bit weird... it is
                  fun...

                  james.. Terms of Service.



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been
                  removed]










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                • james tan
                  oh yes, intentionally or unconsciously, i have committed something i have talked about in the presentation itself: i have projected my subjective pt of view
                  Message 8 of 9 , Mar 6, 2002
                  • 0 Attachment
                    oh yes, intentionally or unconsciously, i have committed something i have
                    talked about in the presentation itself: i have projected my subjective pt
                    of view onto the objective. indeed, at the end of my previous post, i have
                    presented humaneness as if it is the good, universally valid. that was a
                    flop, a blunder; it is clear that it is not neutral. it has no basis other
                    than my point of view. but i am fuzzy about what u meant by: "leave me
                    unmoved as it (existentialism, as i render it) does not answer the real
                    question (the content of ethics?)"; if u have in mind that existentialism
                    should provide a set of moral values universally valid, or even something
                    remotely what moore has done, i guess existentialism as i understand it is
                    gonna disappoint u. existentialism, strictly speaking, is not even a
                    philosophy, rather it is an attitude; it does not provide u with the 'what',
                    rather it is infinitely more concerned with the 'how'; it is process more
                    than content. if there is one word that may sum up, it is heidegger's
                    "authenticity", in the broadest sense of the word, and authentic relative to
                    each individuals. i am sorry to have introduced that contradiction u pointed
                    out. u said that chris said morality is a social artifact; well, anything
                    that is not in the objective is a artifact, or construct, be it social or
                    personal; it serve a very human function of predicting and understanding the
                    world for any course of action (independently of the metaphyical validity).

                    james.

                    From: "swmaerske" <SWMirsky@...>
                    Reply-To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                    To: WisdomForum@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [WisdomForum] Re: Choice and Action
                    Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 01:31:16 -0000

                    So existentialism, as you have described it, offers us the ultimate
                    form of moral relativism? And yet I note that, at the end of your
                    presentation, you talk about man choosing humaneness, when he is free
                    to choose and when he recognizes that freedom, as though "humaneness"
                    were obviously a good thing. But without a concept of "good" how do
                    we know "humaneness" is a good thing? Why is not inhumanity a good
                    thing then, as well? How can you assume that this is preferable, or
                    at least the more desirable outcome, since there is no basis for this
                    claim? At bottom, though you argue for moral relativism, you promise
                    a humaneness of values which, if nothing else, is certainly not
                    neutral.

                    Certainly your argument offers the proposition that a person
                    espousing what we deem to be "bad" or "evil" will not see himself as
                    bad, i.e., Hitler and bin Laden would both deny our charactersization
                    of their views and actions as bad or wrong! And I agree with you,
                    they would do that indeed! But my question is would they be justified
                    in doing so? Though your explanation of the Existentialist view
                    suggests they would, your claim ends with the implicit assertion that
                    they would not. (At least not if humaneness is to be preferred.)

                    And yet you seem to be asserting that they would be justified, if
                    they did what they did sincerely and out of a sense of their freedom
                    to make such choices.

                    Similarly, Popper, per Chris, would have held they would have been
                    justified within their own terms of seeing the world, though that set
                    of terms may be shown, on the Popperian view, to be wrong empirically
                    (though until it is shown to be wrong definitively, based on the
                    evidence or a convincing empirically grounded argument, there is no
                    reason to suppose it is wrong, hence there is no way to argue about
                    the moral rightness or wrongness of their actions).

                    In the case you present, it seems to me you are trying to have it
                    both ways: you say there are not and cannot be moral standards and
                    that the only good is to act in good faith, whatever you do, whether
                    you kill millions wantonly or try to overrun the world, and yet, in
                    the same presentation, you praise the result of such actions as
                    leading, in the end, to humaneness, a clearly moral value. That is
                    you are suggesting that people who act in good faith will,
                    ultimately, choose not to wantonly destroy millions or to overrun the
                    world. In an argument based on contradiction and paradox, such as
                    Existentialism seems to love, I guess this makes sense. But it
                    clearly doesn't stand up to careful analysis of what has been said.

                    I do agree with you that religion is one of the historical bulwarks
                    of morality though I think morality may actually pre-exist religion,
                    or at least religion as we understand it today. Certainly, a morality
                    that depends on a particular religious belief is highly problematic
                    and suspect. In fact I think, like Chris and his idol, Popper, that
                    morality is a social artifact, though I'm not sure I can agree with
                    their ultimate formulation of it. But, certainly, Existentialism as
                    you've sketched it out, while sounding intriguing for all its
                    apparent contradictions and mysteriously obscure formulations, leaves
                    me unmoved as it does not answer the real questions. In fact, it's
                    clear to me that the moral premises that concern us in these sorts of
                    discussions are already embedded quite deeply in the bedrock of the
                    Existentialist argument and are there to be mined by the careful
                    prospector.

                    SWM









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