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Re: Sv: [existlist] Success Spell

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  • jrlyons
    ... jure? Bill Yulian this is a list about Existentialist Philosophy. It is not a philosophy addressed to language puzzles or self indulgent id driven
    Message 1 of 8 , Feb 28 8:44 PM
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      --- In existlist@y..., "Yulian K. Gaard" <ccc61261@v...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > Dear Bill, Dear All ...
      >
      > Bill wrote;
      > "Yulian, Can I use a Posidon medallion, he is my latest god de
      jure? Bill"

      Yulian this is a list about Existentialist Philosophy. It is
      not a philosophy addressed to language puzzles or self
      indulgent id driven platitudes. Existentialism is philosophy
      at work in the trenches of life, calling us to immediate
      awareness, commitment and passionate revery in the fact of the
      freedom this philosophy has exposed for us. For some here
      these ideas are new, well, so is life, I would hope that most
      here would prefer to engage and breathe free. But, what is
      interesting here is what seems obvious. We should be
      engaging Husserl Phenomenology, Heidegger's Authenticity,
      Sartre's Ontology, Camus' The Fall, Kierkegaard's "Becoming
      A Christian" ~ Nietzche's death of god and the attack on
      Nihilism. Hannah Arendt, etc. But we're not, we're calling
      that neurotic little faker with the Remington Rand typewriter,
      Ayn Rand, a worthwhile read and listening to you talk about
      your candles with not a thought about Spinoza. You must be
      laughing your ass off and I don't blame you. Unless you take
      yourself seriously, unless we take you seriously.
      >
      > I'll be cryptic in my answering here, mostly because a direct
      answer
      would go against the purpose of most my postings. My answer is; "Can
      You?"
      >
      > Do you believe that walking back and forth is what actually
      *creates* the changes ? Do you believe that it's the shape, size and
      form of the item ?
      >
      > Look into yourself, Bill, You'll see that you carry the answer to
      your question there.
      >
      > Blessings
      > Yulian
      >
      >
      >
      > Respectfully submitted.
      >
      >
      > " Magic is a way of life. "
    • Yulian K. Gaard
      Dear All, Dear James and Joel, James wrote; [...] green and blue candle, and some rites, and then u have a influence on success. . any experiments and
      Message 2 of 8 , Mar 1, 2002
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        Dear All, Dear James and Joel,

        James wrote;
        "[...] green and blue candle, and some rites, and then u have a influence on success. . any experiments and research to demonstrate that such manipulation will have a effect on reality? [...]"

        I didnt plan on giving you any scientific proofs, but I will give you just one thing to look into, though it covers very little; "Fake Pills" Beliefs and Faith is a key.

        Now, I wish for you to go the other way - proove me wrong, that there is no holistic connection in the multiverse. That your mind and beliefs have no effects on what happens in the world. And no, I wont take that you've walked back and forth between candles till your head turned blue for a proof - you got exactly what you expected and had your mind filled with while doing that, and that was not the focus of your entire mind upon sucess and the belief that you'd archieve it.

        Joel wrote;
        "Fall for it and you fall for the trappings, which, of course, are for sale. And guess who's selling."

        Please look at the open letter to RavenWolf. There you have your perfect example of someone exploiting religion. As for it being a cult; you can probably find alot of cults who practice some of the same techniques.

        Blessings
        Yulian

        Ps. Silver RavenWolf is a famous pagan Author, one of those who about half call an expert and wonderful, the rest call her watering down and exploiting.


        An Open Letter to Silver Ravenwolf
        It's never easy to walk my spiritual path out in the real world; in fact it can be downright hazardous at times. A girl can step in a lot of dung while out walking, making boots necessary footwear these days. What never ceases to amaze me are the cow patties left in the middle of the road by other Pagans.

        The latest road hazard comes from a well known Pagan writer with at least 14 published books to her credit, an elder in her tradition and someone who should know better. Silver RavenWolf has announced plans to market what she is calling a "Teen Witch Kit"

        I have a lot of gripes with this, some of which come under personal standards and therefore won't be explored in depth here. Like the fact that every teenage girl in America is not wearing belly shirts like all of Silver's teen girl representatives appear to be. Even so, since I refuse to apply for membership to the fashion police we shall move on to the bigger issues here.

        Let's begin by stating my own standards on certain things. I do not expect everyone to agree with my standards, but I do want to be clear before going further. I do not endorse the teaching of minors without full parental knowledge and consent, which consent may be withdrawn by those parents at any time. My reasons are more fully explained in my Minors and Paganism Editorial but to reiterate succinctly, it comes down to respect. I have this little thing about respecting the rights of other parents, especially as I insist my parental rights be respected. Notice that two-way street thing going on, a little "scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" philosophy if you will. The freedom to raise my children Pagan is very precious to me, a right won by those who have gone before me. It becomes a matter of honor to defend that right for other parents of other faiths, including those who hold a dim view of me and mine.

        Silver, your work has been taking a disturbing turn lately, edging more and more towards targeting minors. The "Teen Witch Kit" cannot possibly be categorized as anything but a blatant sellout, not only of the Pagan community but also of your own spirituality. Let's be honest here, your target market group does not consist of Pagan teenagers. Children raised Pagan aren't the least bit tempted by this latest offering. Their parents give them all the tools they think they can handle at the proper time. This is an important point you know. You are selling blind, never knowing if the kid who buys your kit is truly ready to utilize magick in a proper and responsible way. Any kid with babysitting money and a ride down to the local bookstore can get their hands on this. If you believe that magick works, and I'm going to assume that you do, how do you justify handing the magickal equivalent of a loaded gun to a 13 year old when you have no idea if they have had the experience and maturity to handle it properly? I have a 13 year old daughter and I showed her your press release and slick promo ad. She knows you are a Witch who has published 14 books, and read your bio. This is what she said in response to the question, "Do you think this is ok for the kids in your grade at your school?"

        "If you give this to the kids I go to school with, there will be a few mature ones who could learn to understand the responsibility involved, but most kids will abuse it. I can see kids using this to their own advantage, without any consideration or respect for other kids. I see a lot of irresponsibility and disrespect in my peers, in homework, friendships and their attitude to teachers and other grownups." Upon further pondering she added, "A lot of them wouldn't understand it because they don't have any background or information about magick or Paganism. About half the kids would be willing to try it anyway and if it did work they would abuse it to the point that basically everyone around them would be under some kind of spell, and a lot of it wouldn't be nice." I asked her what percentage she felt might be responsible with something like this; she felt an honest assessment was around 2%. She also pointed out that the kit shouldn't have the word "Witch" on the cover since it really was about magick and had nothing to do with religion.

        Her last point happens to be a very good one. Nothing in the kit bears any resemblance to anything spiritual. It is a toolbox designed to get a kid whatever he or she wants, and assumes that any child that this slick marketing plan reaches will be able to handle the responsibility and temptation to go further then they should. Had you titled it the "Teen Magician Kit" perhaps it would more accurately reflect the contents. The word Witch denotes a spiritual path that may or may not include the use of magick. However, as is often said by those who term themselves Witches, the use of magick does not make one a Witch.

        Another aspect of all this, and probably what has so many people I know up in arms, is your attitude towards all of this. I took a short cruise by your website Silver, (www.silverravenwolf.com) Under new releases, down at the bottom of one page, I found the following:

        "Call 1-800-THE MOON to place your order, or bug, bother and pester your neighborhood book store till they can't stand it anymore. Oh, and for the adults that don't like this statement? Maybe you don't care about their future, but I do."

        You take an awful lot upon yourself Silver RavenWolf. First you urge kids to make pests of themselves in pursuit of your products, and then you state outright that anyone who disagrees with the "Be a brat to get what you want" approach just doesn't care about kids. Is this the "New Generation of Witches" you plan on bringing along? Are you really encouraging kids to harass storeowners in pursuit of your products? If you are saying it's ok to harass storeowners, why isn't it ok to cast a spell to have the storeowner give that product to a kid for free? I have to ask these questions, Silver, because your words and actions make drawing distinctions very difficult for those of us with a clear moral code and the knowledge of how to interact with others. I would have very little sympathy for any adult who pitched a fit in a bookstore simply because your product wasn't instantly available for them to purchase. I see no reason to hold a teenager to a different standard. After all, I respect teens and believe they are capable of waiting for what they want, and earning it.

        You are not exempt from answering for your words and actions Silver. What you do with just that one line, backed up by your "Teen Witch Kit" is to literally hand wood to those who oppose Pagan spiritual paths and help them strike a match to light the fire. Are you so blinded by profits that you fail to see the reaction of Christian parents reading that one line?

        As if that were not enough, you go on to make a preemptive strike against anyone who might disagree with your actions here. The fact that you posted those words leads me to believe that at some level you were fully aware of what the reaction of the Pagan community would be to this particular product. Your decision to go ahead in spite of your own inner voice leads me to wonder if the Goddess herself has to tap you on the shoulder to get you to listen to the discord you've sown in the Pagan community with all this.

        What insight that you alone appear to possess makes you think you have the right to make such sweeping assumptions about adults who read your words and choose to disagree with you? I don't like your statement Silver, but don't you dare assume or believe that means I don't care about kids. I do care. I care enough to say no to a kid, and that is the hardest thing for a caring adult to do. I care enough to be honest with them and tell them that working spells and magick is not how one solves problems. I care enough to point out that at 13 years old they might not quite be ready to find the one true love of their life. Just a small request from me, in the future feel free to exclude me from these sweeping generalizations about others that you believe are yours to make. Please be sure to list me by name and affiliation.

        This website is a business, in addition to hosting free access message boards. We sell tools and accompaniments, some of which are indeed items that can be used in magick and ritual. We do not sell tools to those under the age of 18. You see Silver, here at Triplemoon, we do believe in magick, although unlike some we are able to draw a distinction between our spirituality and the business we run. Despite our obvious interest in making a living, we have always prominently and publicly stated that nothing of what we sell is necessary to ritual, working magick or connecting with the divine.

        In fact, you'll find many items of interest in our online catalog. The range is, we think, wide and varied, and includes many items that really have little to do with Paganism, but have been requested repeatedly over the years by visitors to the point where we now stock them. One thing that won't be found here anymore are your products Silver. This was not an easy business decision to make. I won't argue with anyone that your products sell, and from a business standpoint it was a poor decision. But from a moral standpoint, it's a very comfortable one to live with. Not every product you market is morally objectionable, and there is a valid consideration from a business view of keeping those items that aren't. But this isn't solely about the Teen Witch Kit. It's also about what appears to us to be your goal of targeting teens, especially those of other faiths. It's about how Pagans would feel if a prominent Christian writer targeted our children to teach them things that we might find objectionable. It's about you telling teens it's ok to do whatever it takes to get whatever they want. It's about giving back the respect to others that we keep demanding for ourselves.

        You live by the law of returns, by your own choice. If you feel negativity swirling about you, it is only what you have stirred up. The wind blowing cold through your door is the lack of warmth and connection to community that was lost somewhere in your ambitions. As you shut your heart and mind to the cries rising around you from the Pagan community, when so many of your peers believe you are making a mistake, your flat out refusal to even consider their point of view does not speak well to one who would claim the sacred mantle of spiritual teacher. A teacher leads by example and the best ones listen much more then they speak.

        Are you listening Silver?





        Respectfully submitted.


        " Magic is a way of life. "



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Bill Harris
        Yes , this is about mindless stupid stuff. Walking back and forth with candles in a transe of hope, or perhaps rolling in angst like a dog in road kill. After
        Message 3 of 8 , Mar 1, 2002
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          Yes , this is about mindless stupid stuff. Walking back and forth with
          candles in a transe of hope, or perhaps rolling in angst like a dog in road
          kill. After you have fed yourself, all your commitment is just so much grist
          for the subatomic mill. I did not read Ayn Rand because the acedemic
          intelligencia all but forbade it. Now they chant politically correct slogans
          and cower in defense of tenure. I think I will read that author if in no
          mood but rebellion. I`m free and Ill do what I want. Maby after we are done
          with rand we will discuss winnie the poo. Maby we will read Mein Kampt and
          get investigated by the government . Perhaps we will discuss the Cassini
          findings regarding the solar wind and the Jovian magnetosphere. "All those
          people that you mentioned, yes I know them, they are all quite lame,I had to
          rearrange their faces and give them all another name. But right now I don`t
          feel so good dont send me no letters, no. Not unless you mail them to me
          from desolation row."
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "jrlyons" <jrlyons@...>
          To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 10:44 PM
          Subject: Re: Sv: [existlist] Success Spell


          > --- In existlist@y..., "Yulian K. Gaard" <ccc61261@v...> wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > > Dear Bill, Dear All ...
          > >
          > > Bill wrote;
          > > "Yulian, Can I use a Posidon medallion, he is my latest god de
          > jure? Bill"
          >
          > Yulian this is a list about Existentialist Philosophy. It is
          > not a philosophy addressed to language puzzles or self
          > indulgent id driven platitudes. Existentialism is philosophy
          > at work in the trenches of life, calling us to immediate
          > awareness, commitment and passionate revery in the fact of the
          > freedom this philosophy has exposed for us. For some here
          > these ideas are new, well, so is life, I would hope that most
          > here would prefer to engage and breathe free. But, what is
          > interesting here is what seems obvious. We should be
          > engaging Husserl Phenomenology, Heidegger's Authenticity,
          > Sartre's Ontology, Camus' The Fall, Kierkegaard's "Becoming
          > A Christian" ~ Nietzche's death of god and the attack on
          > Nihilism. Hannah Arendt, etc. But we're not, we're calling
          > that neurotic little faker with the Remington Rand typewriter,
          > Ayn Rand, a worthwhile read and listening to you talk about
          > your candles with not a thought about Spinoza. You must be
          > laughing your ass off and I don't blame you. Unless you take
          > yourself seriously, unless we take you seriously.
          > >
          > > I'll be cryptic in my answering here, mostly because a direct
          > answer
          > would go against the purpose of most my postings. My answer is; "Can
          > You?"
          > >
          > > Do you believe that walking back and forth is what actually
          > *creates* the changes ? Do you believe that it's the shape, size and
          > form of the item ?
          > >
          > > Look into yourself, Bill, You'll see that you carry the answer to
          > your question there.
          > >
          > > Blessings
          > > Yulian
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Respectfully submitted.
          > >
          > >
          > > " Magic is a way of life. "
          >
          >
          >
          > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
          > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
          >
          > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
          > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
        • Eduard Alf
          jrlyons, At least Yulian is engaging in some discussion instead of hiding in the shadows. If you want to have a discussion on Husserl et al then why not
          Message 4 of 8 , Mar 1, 2002
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            jrlyons,

            At least Yulian is engaging in some discussion instead of hiding in the
            shadows. If you want to have a discussion on Husserl et al then why not
            propose something. As to old Ayn Rand ... well that is your small opinion
            ...

            eduard
            -----Original Message-----
            From: jrlyons [mailto:jrlyons@...]
            Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 11:44 PM
            To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: Sv: [existlist] Success Spell


            --- In existlist@y..., "Yulian K. Gaard" <ccc61261@v...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > Dear Bill, Dear All ...
            >
            > Bill wrote;
            > "Yulian, Can I use a Posidon medallion, he is my latest god de
            jure? Bill"

            Yulian this is a list about Existentialist Philosophy. It is
            not a philosophy addressed to language puzzles or self
            indulgent id driven platitudes. Existentialism is philosophy
            at work in the trenches of life, calling us to immediate
            awareness, commitment and passionate revery in the fact of the
            freedom this philosophy has exposed for us. For some here
            these ideas are new, well, so is life, I would hope that most
            here would prefer to engage and breathe free. But, what is
            interesting here is what seems obvious. We should be
            engaging Husserl Phenomenology, Heidegger's Authenticity,
            Sartre's Ontology, Camus' The Fall, Kierkegaard's "Becoming
            A Christian" ~ Nietzche's death of god and the attack on
            Nihilism. Hannah Arendt, etc. But we're not, we're calling
            that neurotic little faker with the Remington Rand typewriter,
            Ayn Rand, a worthwhile read and listening to you talk about
            your candles with not a thought about Spinoza. You must be
            laughing your ass off and I don't blame you. Unless you take
            yourself seriously, unless we take you seriously.
            >
            > I'll be cryptic in my answering here, mostly because a direct
            answer
            would go against the purpose of most my postings. My answer is; "Can
            You?"
            >
            > Do you believe that walking back and forth is what actually
            *creates* the changes ? Do you believe that it's the shape, size and
            form of the item ?
            >
            > Look into yourself, Bill, You'll see that you carry the answer to
            your question there.
            >
            > Blessings
            > Yulian
            >
            >
            >
            > Respectfully submitted.
            >
            >
            > " Magic is a way of life. "


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            TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
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            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Eduard Alf
            Yulian, For the record, I appreciate your magic stuff. Not that I am about to go walking between candles [I don t have green and purple candles], but your
            Message 5 of 8 , Mar 1, 2002
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              Yulian,

              For the record, I appreciate your magic stuff. Not that I am about to go
              walking between candles [I don't have green and purple candles], but your
              posts are always interesting and food for thought. Keep up the good work.

              eduard
              -----Original Message-----
              From: Yulian K. Gaard [mailto:ccc61261@...]
              Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 6:49 AM
              To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Sv: [existlist] Success Spell




              Dear All, Dear James and Joel,

              James wrote;
              "[...] green and blue candle, and some rites, and then u have a influence
              on success. . any experiments and research to demonstrate that such
              manipulation will have a effect on reality? [...]"

              I didnt plan on giving you any scientific proofs, but I will give you just
              one thing to look into, though it covers very little; "Fake Pills" Beliefs
              and Faith is a key.

              Now, I wish for you to go the other way - proove me wrong, that there is
              no holistic connection in the multiverse. That your mind and beliefs have no
              effects on what happens in the world. And no, I wont take that you've walked
              back and forth between candles till your head turned blue for a proof - you
              got exactly what you expected and had your mind filled with while doing
              that, and that was not the focus of your entire mind upon sucess and the
              belief that you'd archieve it.

              Joel wrote;
              "Fall for it and you fall for the trappings, which, of course, are for
              sale. And guess who's selling."

              Please look at the open letter to RavenWolf. There you have your perfect
              example of someone exploiting religion. As for it being a cult; you can
              probably find alot of cults who practice some of the same techniques.

              Blessings
              Yulian

              Ps. Silver RavenWolf is a famous pagan Author, one of those who about half
              call an expert and wonderful, the rest call her watering down and
              exploiting.


              An Open Letter to Silver Ravenwolf
              It's never easy to walk my spiritual path out in the real world; in fact
              it can be downright hazardous at times. A girl can step in a lot of dung
              while out walking, making boots necessary footwear these days. What never
              ceases to amaze me are the cow patties left in the middle of the road by
              other Pagans.

              The latest road hazard comes from a well known Pagan writer with at least
              14 published books to her credit, an elder in her tradition and someone who
              should know better. Silver RavenWolf has announced plans to market what she
              is calling a "Teen Witch Kit"

              I have a lot of gripes with this, some of which come under personal
              standards and therefore won't be explored in depth here. Like the fact that
              every teenage girl in America is not wearing belly shirts like all of
              Silver's teen girl representatives appear to be. Even so, since I refuse to
              apply for membership to the fashion police we shall move on to the bigger
              issues here.

              Let's begin by stating my own standards on certain things. I do not expect
              everyone to agree with my standards, but I do want to be clear before going
              further. I do not endorse the teaching of minors without full parental
              knowledge and consent, which consent may be withdrawn by those parents at
              any time. My reasons are more fully explained in my Minors and Paganism
              Editorial but to reiterate succinctly, it comes down to respect. I have this
              little thing about respecting the rights of other parents, especially as I
              insist my parental rights be respected. Notice that two-way street thing
              going on, a little "scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" philosophy if
              you will. The freedom to raise my children Pagan is very precious to me, a
              right won by those who have gone before me. It becomes a matter of honor to
              defend that right for other parents of other faiths, including those who
              hold a dim view of me and mine.

              Silver, your work has been taking a disturbing turn lately, edging more
              and more towards targeting minors. The "Teen Witch Kit" cannot possibly be
              categorized as anything but a blatant sellout, not only of the Pagan
              community but also of your own spirituality. Let's be honest here, your
              target market group does not consist of Pagan teenagers. Children raised
              Pagan aren't the least bit tempted by this latest offering. Their parents
              give them all the tools they think they can handle at the proper time. This
              is an important point you know. You are selling blind, never knowing if the
              kid who buys your kit is truly ready to utilize magick in a proper and
              responsible way. Any kid with babysitting money and a ride down to the local
              bookstore can get their hands on this. If you believe that magick works, and
              I'm going to assume that you do, how do you justify handing the magickal
              equivalent of a loaded gun to a 13 year old when you have no idea if they
              have had the experience and maturity to handle it properly? I have a 13 year
              old daughter and I showed her your press release and slick promo ad. She
              knows you are a Witch who has published 14 books, and read your bio. This is
              what she said in response to the question, "Do you think this is ok for the
              kids in your grade at your school?"

              "If you give this to the kids I go to school with, there will be a few
              mature ones who could learn to understand the responsibility involved, but
              most kids will abuse it. I can see kids using this to their own advantage,
              without any consideration or respect for other kids. I see a lot of
              irresponsibility and disrespect in my peers, in homework, friendships and
              their attitude to teachers and other grownups." Upon further pondering she
              added, "A lot of them wouldn't understand it because they don't have any
              background or information about magick or Paganism. About half the kids
              would be willing to try it anyway and if it did work they would abuse it to
              the point that basically everyone around them would be under some kind of
              spell, and a lot of it wouldn't be nice." I asked her what percentage she
              felt might be responsible with something like this; she felt an honest
              assessment was around 2%. She also pointed out that the kit shouldn't have
              the word "Witch" on the cover since it really was about magick and had
              nothing to do with religion.

              Her last point happens to be a very good one. Nothing in the kit bears any
              resemblance to anything spiritual. It is a toolbox designed to get a kid
              whatever he or she wants, and assumes that any child that this slick
              marketing plan reaches will be able to handle the responsibility and
              temptation to go further then they should. Had you titled it the "Teen
              Magician Kit" perhaps it would more accurately reflect the contents. The
              word Witch denotes a spiritual path that may or may not include the use of
              magick. However, as is often said by those who term themselves Witches, the
              use of magick does not make one a Witch.

              Another aspect of all this, and probably what has so many people I know up
              in arms, is your attitude towards all of this. I took a short cruise by your
              website Silver, (www.silverravenwolf.com) Under new releases, down at the
              bottom of one page, I found the following:

              "Call 1-800-THE MOON to place your order, or bug, bother and pester your
              neighborhood book store till they can't stand it anymore. Oh, and for the
              adults that don't like this statement? Maybe you don't care about their
              future, but I do."

              You take an awful lot upon yourself Silver RavenWolf. First you urge kids
              to make pests of themselves in pursuit of your products, and then you state
              outright that anyone who disagrees with the "Be a brat to get what you want"
              approach just doesn't care about kids. Is this the "New Generation of
              Witches" you plan on bringing along? Are you really encouraging kids to
              harass storeowners in pursuit of your products? If you are saying it's ok to
              harass storeowners, why isn't it ok to cast a spell to have the storeowner
              give that product to a kid for free? I have to ask these questions, Silver,
              because your words and actions make drawing distinctions very difficult for
              those of us with a clear moral code and the knowledge of how to interact
              with others. I would have very little sympathy for any adult who pitched a
              fit in a bookstore simply because your product wasn't instantly available
              for them to purchase. I see no reason to hold a teenager to a different
              standard. After all, I respect teens and believe they are capable of waiting
              for what they want, and earning it.

              You are not exempt from answering for your words and actions Silver. What
              you do with just that one line, backed up by your "Teen Witch Kit" is to
              literally hand wood to those who oppose Pagan spiritual paths and help them
              strike a match to light the fire. Are you so blinded by profits that you
              fail to see the reaction of Christian parents reading that one line?

              As if that were not enough, you go on to make a preemptive strike against
              anyone who might disagree with your actions here. The fact that you posted
              those words leads me to believe that at some level you were fully aware of
              what the reaction of the Pagan community would be to this particular
              product. Your decision to go ahead in spite of your own inner voice leads me
              to wonder if the Goddess herself has to tap you on the shoulder to get you
              to listen to the discord you've sown in the Pagan community with all this.

              What insight that you alone appear to possess makes you think you have the
              right to make such sweeping assumptions about adults who read your words and
              choose to disagree with you? I don't like your statement Silver, but don't
              you dare assume or believe that means I don't care about kids. I do care. I
              care enough to say no to a kid, and that is the hardest thing for a caring
              adult to do. I care enough to be honest with them and tell them that working
              spells and magick is not how one solves problems. I care enough to point out
              that at 13 years old they might not quite be ready to find the one true love
              of their life. Just a small request from me, in the future feel free to
              exclude me from these sweeping generalizations about others that you believe
              are yours to make. Please be sure to list me by name and affiliation.

              This website is a business, in addition to hosting free access message
              boards. We sell tools and accompaniments, some of which are indeed items
              that can be used in magick and ritual. We do not sell tools to those under
              the age of 18. You see Silver, here at Triplemoon, we do believe in magick,
              although unlike some we are able to draw a distinction between our
              spirituality and the business we run. Despite our obvious interest in making
              a living, we have always prominently and publicly stated that nothing of
              what we sell is necessary to ritual, working magick or connecting with the
              divine.

              In fact, you'll find many items of interest in our online catalog. The
              range is, we think, wide and varied, and includes many items that really
              have little to do with Paganism, but have been requested repeatedly over the
              years by visitors to the point where we now stock them. One thing that won't
              be found here anymore are your products Silver. This was not an easy
              business decision to make. I won't argue with anyone that your products
              sell, and from a business standpoint it was a poor decision. But from a
              moral standpoint, it's a very comfortable one to live with. Not every
              product you market is morally objectionable, and there is a valid
              consideration from a business view of keeping those items that aren't. But
              this isn't solely about the Teen Witch Kit. It's also about what appears to
              us to be your goal of targeting teens, especially those of other faiths.
              It's about how Pagans would feel if a prominent Christian writer targeted
              our children to teach them things that we might find objectionable. It's
              about you telling teens it's ok to do whatever it takes to get whatever they
              want. It's about giving back the respect to others that we keep demanding
              for ourselves.

              You live by the law of returns, by your own choice. If you feel negativity
              swirling about you, it is only what you have stirred up. The wind blowing
              cold through your door is the lack of warmth and connection to community
              that was lost somewhere in your ambitions. As you shut your heart and mind
              to the cries rising around you from the Pagan community, when so many of
              your peers believe you are making a mistake, your flat out refusal to even
              consider their point of view does not speak well to one who would claim the
              sacred mantle of spiritual teacher. A teacher leads by example and the best
              ones listen much more then they speak.

              Are you listening Silver?





              Respectfully submitted.


              " Magic is a way of life. "



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Yulian K. Gaard
              Dear Bill, Dear All ... Bill Wrote; Yulian, You need a vacation with Project 7 in flathead county Mont. Bill I ll need to ask, what is that ?? A vacation
              Message 6 of 8 , Mar 1, 2002
              • 0 Attachment
                Dear Bill, Dear All ...

                Bill Wrote;
                "Yulian, You need a vacation with Project 7 in flathead county Mont. Bill"

                I'll need to ask, what is that ?? A vacation would be great, especially if it'd be a vacation that could help me find financial aid to study in the USA.

                Blessings
                Yulian


                Respectfully submitted.


                " Magic is a way of life. "
              • greg goodwin
                Greetings all, sorry for butting in at the moment, especially since I ve been quiet for sooooooo long. Angelic Y, without magic or at least the possibility for
                Message 7 of 8 , Mar 1, 2002
                • 0 Attachment
                  Greetings all, sorry for butting in at the moment,
                  especially since I've been quiet for sooooooo long.
                  Angelic Y, without magic or at least the possibility
                  for pressence of magic life would/is a woeful
                  existence. Without the 'magical insight' posessed by
                  so few, we possibly could still be living in caves and
                  dragging our women around by the hair (ok so this
                  might not be so bad). Magic is forsight that something
                  is posssible and only a true magician can make it
                  happen, AG, I salute you and your dreams.
                  GG
                  --- "Yulian K. Gaard" <ccc61261@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > Dear Bill, Dear All ...
                  >
                  > Bill Wrote;
                  > "Yulian, You need a vacation with Project 7 in
                  > flathead county Mont. Bill"
                  >
                  > I'll need to ask, what is that ?? A vacation would
                  > be great, especially if it'd be a vacation that
                  > could help me find financial aid to study in the
                  > USA.
                  >
                  > Blessings
                  > Yulian
                  >
                  >
                  > Respectfully submitted.
                  >
                  >
                  > " Magic is a way of life. "
                  >
                  >
                  >


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