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Re: Humanity's Freedom: Does it have limits?

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  • Mary
    According to Sartre the only limit to freedom of choice is freedom. We are not free to stop being free, and others limit my freedom through their own freedom.
    Message 1 of 7 , Aug 6, 2013
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      According to Sartre the only limit to freedom of choice is freedom. We are not free to stop being free, and others limit my freedom through their own freedom. Human being is not determined; we determine or we are not free. Consciousness is a nothingness. See my previous post for Sartre's own words.

      Mary

      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "michael5th" <michael5th@...> wrote:
      >
      > All -
      >
      > I would be interested in getting anyone's perspective to the question: Does humanity's freedom have limits? Why or Why Not? In what ways are our lives absolutely determined?
      >
      > Again curious on your perspectives when it comes to some of the existentialist greats - Sartre, Heidegger, etc.
      >
      > Thank you!
      >
    • Michael Beek
      Thx Mary.  I am studying existentialism and go back-n-forth on this subject.  Would you agree with me when I say, I do feel we have limits - as our own
      Message 2 of 7 , Aug 6, 2013
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        Thx Mary.  I am studying existentialism and go back-n-forth on this subject.  Would you agree with me when I say, I do feel we have limits - as our own choices limit other's freedom and ultimately this is not freedom.  Things like "bad faith" or the "master-slave" paradox contribute to this.....


        ________________________________
        From: Mary <josephson45r@...>
        To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tuesday, August 6, 2013 8:06 AM
        Subject: [existlist] Re: Humanity's Freedom: Does it have limits?



         
        According to Sartre the only limit to freedom of choice is freedom. We are not free to stop being free, and others limit my freedom through their own freedom. Human being is not determined; we determine or we are not free. Consciousness is a nothingness. See my previous post for Sartre's own words.

        Mary

        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "michael5th" <michael5th@...> wrote:
        >
        > All -
        >
        > I would be interested in getting anyone's perspective to the question: Does humanity's freedom have limits? Why or Why Not? In what ways are our lives absolutely determined?
        >
        > Again curious on your perspectives when it comes to some of the existentialist greats - Sartre, Heidegger, etc.
        >
        > Thank you!
        >




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Mary
        How does a limit destroy my freedom to make myself? Without other being in situation as a limit, what is freedom but an abstraction? One could say that limit
        Message 3 of 7 , Aug 7, 2013
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          How does a limit destroy my freedom to make myself? Without other being in situation as a limit, what is freedom but an abstraction? One could say that limit is necessary for the freedom to choose my essence. Nothingness creates the condition for freedom; I'm never not free to make myself. I just read Sartre's explanation of the difference between the types of freedom Jim mentioned recently and will post it later.

          Mary

          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Michael Beek <michael5th@...> wrote:
          >
          > Thx Mary.  I am studying existentialism and go back-n-forth on this subject.  Would you agree with me when I say, I do feel we have limits - as our own choices limit other's freedom and ultimately this is not freedom.  Things like "bad faith" or the "master-slave" paradox contribute to this.....
          >
          >
          > ________________________________
          > From: Mary <josephson45r@...>
          > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Tuesday, August 6, 2013 8:06 AM
          > Subject: [existlist] Re: Humanity's Freedom: Does it have limits?
          >
          >
          >
          >  
          > According to Sartre the only limit to freedom of choice is freedom. We are not free to stop being free, and others limit my freedom through their own freedom. Human being is not determined; we determine or we are not free. Consciousness is a nothingness. See my previous post for Sartre's own words.
          >
          > Mary
          >
          > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "michael5th" <michael5th@> wrote:
          > >
          > > All -
          > >
          > > I would be interested in getting anyone's perspective to the question: Does humanity's freedom have limits? Why or Why Not? In what ways are our lives absolutely determined?
          > >
          > > Again curious on your perspectives when it comes to some of the existentialist greats - Sartre, Heidegger, etc.
          > >
          > > Thank you!
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Mary
          Just to reiterate, according to Sartre at least, The technical and philosophical concept of freedom, the only which which we are considering here, means only
          Message 4 of 7 , Aug 7, 2013
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            Just to reiterate, according to Sartre at least, "The technical and philosophical concept of freedom, the only which which we are considering here, means only the autonomy of choice." Here is the excerpt.

            ~The decisive argument which is employed by common sense against freedom consists in reminding us of our impotence. Far from being able to modify our situation at our whim, we seem to be unable to change ourselves. I am not "free" either to escape the lot of my class, of my nation, of my family, or even to build up my own power or my fortune or to conquer my most insignificant appetites or habits. I am born a worker, a Frenchman, an hereditary syphilitic, or a tuberbular. The history of a life, whatever it may be, is the history of a failure. The coefficient of adversity of things is such that years of patience are necessary to obtain the feeblest result. Again it is necessary "to obey nature in order to command it"; that is, to insert my action into the network of determinism. Much more than he appears "to make himself," man seems "to be made" by climate and the earth, race and class, language, the history of the collectivity of which he is a part, heredity, the individual circumstances of his childhood, acquired habits, the great and small events of his life...

            ...Many of the facts set forth by the determinists do not actually deserve to enter into our considerations. In particular the coefficient of adversity in things can not be an argument against our freedom, for it is *by us*—i.e., by the preliminary positing of an end—this coefficient of adversity arises....Thus although brute things (what Heidegger calls "brute existents") can from the start limit our freedom of action, it is our freedom itself which must first constitute the framework, the technique, and the ends in relation to which they will manifest themselves as limits...it is our freedom which constitutes the limits which it will subsequently encounter...

            ...There can be a free for-itself only as engaged in a resisting world. Outside of this engagement the notions of freedom, of determinism, of necessity lose all meaning.

            In addition it is necessary to point out to "common sense" that the formula "to be free" does not mean "to obtain what one has wished" but rather "by oneself to determine oneself to wish" (in the broad sense of choosing). In other words success is not important to freedom. The discussion which opposes common sense to philosophers stems here from a misunderstanding: the empirical popular concept of "freedom" which has been produced by historical, political, and moral circumstances is equivalent to "the ability to obtain the ends chosen." The technical and philosophical concept of freedom, the only which which we are considering here, means only the autonomy of choice. It is necessary, however, to note that the choice, being identical with acting, supposes a commencement of realization in order that the choice may be distinguished from the dream and the wish...This essential distinction between the freedom of choice and the freedom of obtaining was certainly perceived by Descartes following Stoicism. It puts an end to all arguments based on the distinction between "wiling" and "being able," which are still put forth today by the partisans and the opponents of freedom.~ Being and Nothingness; Being and Doing: Freedom; II. Freedom and Facticity: The Situation

            Mary

            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@...> wrote:

            > How does a limit destroy my freedom to make myself? Without other being in situation as a limit, what is freedom but an abstraction? One could say that limit is necessary for the freedom to choose my essence. Nothingness creates the condition for freedom; I'm never not free to make myself. I just read Sartre's explanation of the difference between the types of freedom Jim mentioned recently and will post it later.

            > Mary

            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Michael Beek <michael5th@> wrote:

            > > Thx Mary.  I am studying existentialism and go back-n-forth on this subject.  Would you agree with me when I say, I do feel we have limits - as our own choices limit other's freedom and ultimately this is not freedom.  Things like "bad faith" or the "master-slave" paradox contribute to this.....
            > >
            > >
            > > ________________________________
            > > From: Mary <josephson45r@>
            > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            > > Sent: Tuesday, August 6, 2013 8:06 AM
            > > Subject: [existlist] Re: Humanity's Freedom: Does it have limits?
             
            > > According to Sartre the only limit to freedom of choice is freedom. We are not free to stop being free, and others limit my freedom through their own freedom. Human being is not determined; we determine or we are not free. Consciousness is a nothingness. See my previous post for Sartre's own words.
            > >
            > > Mary

            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "michael5th" <michael5th@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > All -
            > > >
            > > > I would be interested in getting anyone's perspective to the question: Does humanity's freedom have limits? Why or Why Not? In what ways are our lives absolutely determined?
            > > >
            > > > Again curious on your perspectives when it comes to some of the existentialist greats - Sartre, Heidegger, etc.
            > > >
            > > > Thank you!
          • daveylee40
            There are no limits to freedom, but likewise there are no limits to consequences. Each person is free to limit themselves, most likely based upon avoiding
            Message 5 of 7 , Aug 25, 2013
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              There are no limits to freedom, but likewise there are no limits to consequences. Each person is free to limit themselves, most likely based upon avoiding possible consequences undesirable to the individual. This freedom to limit oneself of course has no limits.

              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "michael5th" <michael5th@...> wrote:
              >
              > All -
              >
              > I would be interested in getting anyone's perspective to the question: Does humanity's freedom have limits? Why or Why Not? In what ways are our lives absolutely determined?
              >
              > Again curious on your perspectives when it comes to some of the existentialist greats - Sartre, Heidegger, etc.
              >
              > Thank you!
              >
            • Mary
              Another way to look at freedom and limits is to say that limits are what make freedom possible. No limits, no freedom. The situations which enslave us, whether
              Message 6 of 7 , Aug 26, 2013
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                Another way to look at freedom and limits is to say that limits are what make freedom possible. No limits, no freedom. The situations which enslave us, whether they be habits and/or relationships create the desire for and examination of choice. Habit creates the possibility of freedom from habit. Slavery creates the possibility of freedom. Laws create lawlessness not vice versa. Freedom doesn't require limits; limits necessitate freedom.

                Mary

                --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "daveylee40" <daveylee1961@...> wrote:
                >
                > There are no limits to freedom, but likewise there are no limits to consequences. Each person is free to limit themselves, most likely based upon avoiding possible consequences undesirable to the individual. This freedom to limit oneself of course has no limits.
                >
                > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "michael5th" <michael5th@> wrote:
                > >
                > > All -
                > >
                > > I would be interested in getting anyone's perspective to the question: Does humanity's freedom have limits? Why or Why Not? In what ways are our lives absolutely determined?
                > >
                > > Again curious on your perspectives when it comes to some of the existentialist greats - Sartre, Heidegger, etc.
                > >
                > > Thank you!
                > >
                >
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