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choosing roles

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  • Mary
    The reason one can choose roles or change scripts is because one is not these. If one *were* the role they play or script they adopt, they would be that thing
    Message 1 of 171 , Jul 28 10:24 AM
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      The reason one can choose roles or change scripts is because one is not these. If one *were* the role they play or script they adopt, they would be that thing in in-itself. We are free to choose because consciousness is essentially empty; it negates and is itself a *not*. What liberates or constrains choice is either the recognition of nothingness or the acceptance of being a thing in-itself respectively. I am not any role. The reason I or others wish me to be this or that role is too feel secure. I am not this or that label. Creating my essence is possible due to nothingness. I don't want the freedom to choose roles. I want to be free of roles altogether and authentically *be* with others. The point is not to act, as in perform, but to act, as in do, according to our freely chosen values. Anything less creates confusion for others, unless one's intent is to deceive.

      Mary

      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome <yeoman@...> wrote:
      >
      > hb3g,
      >
      > The problem of course, is that one is never out of everything. I suppose
      > the objective in life is to find a role that you like to play.
      >
      > eduard
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Herman Triplegood
      > Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 2:57 PM
      > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [existlist] Re: vertigo & inkwells
      >
      > That is what being in the Army felt like to me. Right now, it is what my
      > marriage feels like. Soon enough, that is how my technical career will feel.
      > In every case, when it feels like this to me, it isn't long before it ends.
      > Now, what would it be like, I wonder, when the next "feels like..." ends,
      > instead of promptly replacing it with just another "feels like..." I replace
      > it, instead, with nothing at all. No war to prepare for. No job to show up
      > for. Then what happens? The most important things, at the most important
      > time in one's life, I would hope; if, that is, one is fortunate enough to be
      > able to let "just nothing..." actually happen. That, I say, will be true
      > retirement. No more roles to play.
      >
      > hb3g
      >
      > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@> wrote:
      > >
      > > eduard,
      > >
      > > Sartre's term vertigo is related to anguish in that one wishes to jump or
      > > fall from a height in order to end the fear. Having to face being a waiter
      > > each day, if one does not wish to be a waiter, but preparing to act as a
      > > waiter may be analogous. If you hate your role but act it well, it's like
      > > jumping off a cliff every single day you have to do it.
      > >
      > > The inkwell (as identity) and the waiter (as an identity) are each an
      > > in-itself. Bad faith results from the conflict of being both in-itself and
      > > for-itself. The inkwell isn't trying to be in-itself; it just is. The
      > > waiter in trying to be a waiter is a human for-itself trying to be a thing
      > > in-itself. Even trying to be a human in-itself is dubious.
      > >
      > > Of course you're right, in non-philosophical mode we may have multiple
      > > motives for appearing to perform our roles precisely, but that isn't
      > > Sartre's concern. His "Being and Nothingness" is definitely in
      > > philosophical mode, using philosophical terminology. And although I lack
      > > training, this obstacle hasn't deterred me from enjoying whatever I'm able
      > > to grasp.
      > >
      > > For my part, I'd probably hang out in that cafe in order to persuade
      > > 'that' waiter to borrow a copy of Sartre's book, wrestle with it, and
      > > decide for himself whether Sartre offered anything of value. He should at
      > > least be curious as to why he became so famous, why so many readers have
      > > argued about his bad faith for seventy years, if it's a legitimate concern
      > > or not.
      > >
      > > Mary
      > >
      > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome <yeoman@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Does the waiter really suffer vertigo because he has to choose being a
      > > > waiter each morning?? I seriously doubt it. McCulloch is trying to
      > > > dramatize the thing. I would suggest that worrying about whether or not
      > > > he
      > > > is an inkwell [to use McCulloch's terms] is the last thing on the
      > > > waiter's
      > > > mind.
      > > >
      > > > I think McCulloch is right in saying that the word "being" or "etre" is
      > > > a
      > > > verb. The "being" in the phrase "being-in-itself" or "etre en soi" is
      > > > not a
      > > > noun. It isn't a thing. It is an act. I don't think it requires two
      > > > verbs
      > > > to make a distinction between en soi and pour soi.
      > > >
      > > > But let's say that the waiter does think he is the role he plays. This
      > > > deserves a "so what". What is the adverse impact and does it mean
      > > > anything
      > > > in the life of the waiter?? The waiter thinks he is his role and goes
      > > > to
      > > > the cafe to serve Sartre a brioche. Sartre then comments that that this
      > > > presents a "fundamental ambiguity or two-facedness" which plays the
      > > > crucial
      > > > role in the cases of bad faith. So what. It clearly upsets Sartre, but
      > > > doesn't seem to worry the waiter. It can only affect the waiter if he
      > > > subsequently makes a wrong choice because of mauvais foi. But I would
      > > > suggest that the waiter is unlikely to make a wrong choice specifically
      > > > because of this factor versus any other factor. If the waiter thinks he
      > > > is
      > > > a waiter [en soi], he is likely to continue in that role until he grows
      > > > old
      > > > and dies or is run over by some yellow jersey cyclist.
      > > >
      > > > eduard
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > -----Original Message-----
      > > > From: Jim
      > > > Sent: Monday, July 22, 2013 6:03 PM
      > > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      > > > Subject: [existlist] Re: Fixed nature
      > > >
      > > > Mary,
      > > >
      > > > Again you express some of Sartre's ideas very clearly and elegantly. I
      > > > don't
      > > > think I can match your formulations.
      > > >
      > > > Thanks for posting the bad faith section from Being and Nothingness. I
      > > > have
      > > > benefitted from reading it, but it just is very hard!
      > > >
      > > > Sartre talks of the "double property of the human being, who is at once
      > > > a
      > > > facticity and a transcendence". He goes on:
      > > >
      > > > "These two aspects of human reality are and ought to be capable of a
      > > > valid
      > > > coordination. But bad faith does not wish either to coordinate them nor
      > > > to
      > > > surmount them in a synthesis. Bad faith seeks to affirm their identity
      > > > while
      > > > preserving their differences. It must affirm facticity as being
      > > > transcendence and transcendence as being facticity, in. such a way that
      > > > at
      > > > the instant when a person apprehends the one, he can find himself
      > > > abruptly
      > > > faced with the other."
      > > >
      > > > Gregory McCulloch in his commentary on this section makes the point that
      > > > this is all so difficult because we just have one verb "to be", but we
      > > > really need two verbs â€" to be1 and to be2 â€" to talk about being
      > > > in-itself
      > > > (facticity) and being for-itself (transcendence). He writes:
      > > >
      > > > "To be in the mode or manner In-itself and to be in the mode or manner
      > > > For-itself are utterly different things. Let us write the first as `to
      > > > be1'
      > > > and the second as `to be2'. [McCulloch actually uses capitals for the
      > > > first
      > > > and bold for the second, but as I can't get bold into my Existlist text,
      > > > I'll use numbers.] An inkwell is an inkwell in the manner In-itself: so
      > > > an
      > > > inkwell is1 an inkwell. A waiter is a waiter in the manner For-itself:
      > > > so a
      > > > waiter is2 a waiter. But it is not true that an inkwell is2 an inkwell
      > > > (or
      > > > anything else), and it is not true that a waiter is1 a waiter (or
      > > > anything
      > > > else). Ordinary language is confusing because it only has the one verb
      > > > â€" `to
      > > > be' â€" where in reality it needs two if Sartre's fundamental
      > > > distinction in
      > > > Being holds: `to be1' and `to be2'. As Sartre puts it, the concept of
      > > > being
      > > > is `two-faced' (B&N: 67). Not only this, but Sartre's principal idea is
      > > > that
      > > > this fundamental ambiguity or two-facedness is playing the crucial role
      > > > in
      > > > the cases of bad faith he discusses." (McCulloch, p. 57)
      > > >
      > > > So in the famous waiter example, the waiter thinks he is1 a waiter â€"
      > > > he
      > > > things that is his essence â€" whereas in reality he is2 a waiter â€" he
      > > > continually chooses to be a waiter, he re-invents himself every morning
      > > > as a
      > > > waiter.
      > > >
      > > > Further Sartre suggests others pressurize the waiter to live up to the
      > > > role â€" others want the waiter to be1 a waiter, as that is less
      > > > threatening
      > > > to them.
      > > >
      > > > As you say, Mary, this is all very insightful. We do have radical
      > > > freedom to
      > > > re-invent ourselves out of nothing each day of our lives, but living
      > > > with
      > > > this knowledge is unsettling to us, it gives us a sense of vertigo, and
      > > > we
      > > > often find the bad faith path of identifying our essence with our
      > > > current
      > > > role, or our past characteristics, the path of least resistance.
      > > >
      > > > My brain is beginning to hurt with the effort to understand and
      > > > articulate
      > > > these Sartrean ideas, so I'll stop here.
      > > >
      > > > Jim
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > ------------------------------------
      > > >
      > > > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining
      > > > nothing!
      > > >
      > > > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
      > > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining nothing!
      >
      > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
      >
    • daveylee40
      It seems to me that we are limited to the qualities and capacities of humanness as supplied by the natural state of being human. Other than that, I personally
      Message 171 of 171 , Aug 25, 2013
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        It seems to me that we are limited to the qualities and capacities of humanness as supplied by the natural state of being human. Other than that, I personally cannot conceive of a fixed nature or essence.

        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@...> wrote:
        >
        > No congratulations from Sartre unless I understand how I am being in-itself and being for-itself. Since I'm sufficiently satisfied with my grasp of Sartre's Bad Faith, I'm now going to spend some time with how Sartre explains what he considers the 'correct' view of in-itself for being human. What for Sartre is fixed as human essence other than existence, nothing, and freedom?
        >
        > Mary
        >
        > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome <yeoman@> wrote:
        >
        > > Sartre could encounter the waiter whilst serving the table and ask "what are
        > > you??"
        > >
        > > "I'm a waiter"
        > >
        > > "Aha ... and obvious case of mauvais foi". "But, what are you besides a
        > > waiter??"
        > >
        > > "I'm a father of a family"
        > >
        > > "Still mauvais foi ... a sad case". "I mean, underneath, besides these
        > > particular roles??"
        > >
        > > "Of course, I am a human being".
        > >
        > > "Congratulations".
        > >
        > > eduard
        > >
        > > -----Original Message-----
        > > From: Mary
        > > Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2013 10:28 AM
        > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        > > Subject: [existlist] Fixed nature
        > >
        > > We reject labels which identify us as essentially one particular thing. I am
        > > not my job, so whichever occupation I choose or find myself in and
        > > regardless of the education and training it requires, I am still not that
        > > position/role/job in-itself. It is this idea of having a fixed nature, a
        > > something in-itself, which Sartre opposes. We are being for-itself and
        > > either struggle or recoil at the thought of having the freedom of not having
        > > an identity (an in-itself) so we find ourselves in the 'project' or
        > > condition of bad faith. Sartre thinks our nature is to desire a fixed
        > > nature. But this is further complicated by the fact that others tend to
        > > label us as having a fixed nature.
        > >
        > > If I say you, eduard, are essentially a positivist or a reductionist or
        > > whatever, you reject this because you feel you are not that. If I say you
        > > are an electrical engineer, you're more likely to say this is true, but are
        > > you really only or strictly what your job entails? Aren't you first eduard,
        > > a human being who thinks and does many things besides his job? Aren't your
        > > ideas and ways of being constantly changing? To say that you perform your
        > > job/role as an electrical engineer means you are not strictly that block of
        > > identity. Even if you were to change careers, you wouldn't strictly be that
        > > new identity either. You would be free to be more than just that. Sartre
        > > means that all jobs are equal only in the sense that we still would not be
        > > identified strictly with what we do.
        > >
        > > To say I am not *that* means I am not merely a being in-itself. But it's
        > > more complicated, because if there weren't some facticity about being human,
        > > we wouldn't be able to negate it and be a being for-itself. We would merely
        > > be this block of identity. This is really what Sartre uses bad faith to
        > > explainâ€"the relationship between being in-itself and for-itself.
        > >
        > > Mary
        > >
        > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome <yeoman@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Mary,
        > > >
        > > > I think that part of the difficulty may be that we are dealing with
        > > > 1930’s thought. The way I see it, Sartre is describing psychology as to
        > > > mental functioning and associated behaviour. But in the 1930’s there
        > > > was very little in the way of realising that we actually used our brains
        > > > to think, so Sartre and others had to resort to labels and phraseology
        > > > which might suffice.
        > > >
        > > > But since such phraseology is disconnected from reality, it easily leads
        > > > to convoluted statements such as, "If I am a cafe waiter, this can be only
        > > > in the mode of *not being* one." That statement makes no sense, and I
        > > > can well appreciate the need for 800 pages of reading to obtain some kind
        > > > of understanding. I don’t believe that such a statement would be made
        > > > by anyone today in the 21st century.
        > > >
        > > > I read the paragraph at least 4 times now and still cannot make any sense
        > > > of it. For example, â€Å"This is the result of the fact that while I must
        > > > *play at being* a cafe waiter in order to be one, still it would be in
        > > > vain for me to play at being a diplomat or a sailor, for I would not be
        > > > one”. I think that what Sartre is saying is that a â€Å"diplomat” is a
        > > > position that requires substantial training and something to which you are
        > > > assigned. You can’t just walk into the Ministry of State building and
        > > > start acting like a diplomat as one might act as a waiter when walking
        > > > into a restaurant. But if that is the case, then Sartre weakens his
        > > > argument for mauvais foi, since the diplomat could equally confuse himself
        > > > with his role.
        > > >
        > > > I agree with your understanding of bad faith. I asked at the office, what
        > > > was the meaning of â€Å"mauvais foi”. It comes down to misrepresenting
        > > > yourself to others, as for example to have a hidden agenda. Sartre seems
        > > > to be using the term as misrepresenting yourself to yourself. In regard
        > > > to the question of whether it is possible to misrepresent yourself to
        > > > yourself, I should think that it is entirely possible. There is nothing
        > > > in the rule book of brain thinking that one has to be entirely logical and
        > > > transparent.
        > > >
        > > > I think the example of the waiter is put in the wrong sense which
        > > > compounds the difficulty. The waiter is said to be too precise and
        > > > therefore he/she has mauvais foi. But it really should be expressed the
        > > > other way around, as waiters who have mauvais foi tend to act in too
        > > > precise a manner. Not all waiters who act precisely have mauvais foi.
        > > > Neither do all beau parleurs.
        > > >
        > > > eduard
        > >
        >
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