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Bad Faith And The Other (Jonathan Webber) 2010

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  • Mary
    Please disregard the earlier reference. This is complete section from one of his books and very accessible.
    Message 1 of 4 , Jul 17, 2013
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      Please disregard the earlier reference. This is complete section from one of his books and very accessible.

      http://www.academia.edu/2989553/Bad_Faith_and_the_Other

      Since it addresses several concerns and misconceptions regarding Sartre's concept, it might be helpful.

      Mary
    • eduardathome
      Downloaded the paper. Will take a while to read it. Thanks Mary. eduard ... From: Mary Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2013 10:18 AM To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      Message 2 of 4 , Jul 17, 2013
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        Downloaded the paper. Will take a while to read it.

        Thanks Mary.

        eduard

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Mary
        Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2013 10:18 AM
        To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [existlist] Bad Faith And The Other (Jonathan Webber) 2010

        Please disregard the earlier reference. This is complete section from one of
        his books and very accessible.

        http://www.academia.edu/2989553/Bad_Faith_and_the_Other

        Since it addresses several concerns and misconceptions regarding Sartre's
        concept, it might be helpful.

        Mary



        ------------------------------------

        Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining nothing!

        Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
      • Mary
        Here are two statements from Webber s paper which I think fairly represent our contrasting views at this point. Sartre has been accused of being unfair to
        Message 3 of 4 , Jul 18, 2013
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          Here are two statements from Webber's paper which I think fairly represent our contrasting views at this point.

          "Sartre has been accused of being unfair to waiters, for example, and indeed of showing through this vignette a condescending and demeaning attitude towards working people in general (Phillips 1981)." There don't seem to be any free versions of D.Z. Phillips work on line, but you can probably obtain it through a university student who has access.

          "We will see that Sartre's use of these examples is compatible with his overall philosophical theory after all. He does not consider the overt behaviour of these characters to show that they are in bad faith, but rather considers it to be equally compatible with the recognition and affirmation of our lack of any fixed nature."

          This is more what I think and shows that we can hold incoherent thoughts about our being, and the example of the waiter begins to look this way. In other words, he knows and chooses to play at being a waiter precisely because he knows that is not what he is. The example is a universal one and not a singling out of the waiter as a failure. Bad faith is a universal condition according to Sartre. The example of the waiter now seems one of negating an essence (a waiter as an in-itself) for one of existence (human for it-self). It is remains a troubled belief, because the waiter doesn't feel free to quit. So while he may be responsible, he isn't responsible for his freedom.

          Mary

          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome <yeoman@...> wrote:
          >
          > Downloaded the paper. Will take a while to read it.
          >
          > Thanks Mary.
          >
          > eduard
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Mary
          > Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2013 10:18 AM
          > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [existlist] Bad Faith And The Other (Jonathan Webber) 2010
          >
          > Please disregard the earlier reference. This is complete section from one of
          > his books and very accessible.
          >
          > http://www.academia.edu/2989553/Bad_Faith_and_the_Other
          >
          > Since it addresses several concerns and misconceptions regarding Sartre's
          > concept, it might be helpful.
          >
          > Mary
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining nothing!
          >
          > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
          >
        • eduardathome
          As I said elsewhere I think the example of the waiter is actually intended to first designate that he/she has bad faith and then identify what behaviours this
          Message 4 of 4 , Jul 19, 2013
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            As I said elsewhere I think the example of the waiter is actually intended to first designate that he/she has bad faith and then identify what behaviours this might cause. In brief ... this is a waiter who has bad faith and thus acts in a waiter-esque manner. Instead the example is given as ... here is a waiter who acts in a waiter-esque manner and thus has bad faith.

            “he knows and chooses to play at being a waiter precisely because he knows that is not what he is”.

            I seriously doubt that.

            The waiter likely chooses to play at being a waiter because he needs the job to earn money and feed his family. Or perhaps his father owns the restaurant and this is a means to learn the business. His father is also watching [as well as Sartre], so he overdoes it a bit.

            Does the ditch digger wake up one morning and say he really isn’t a ditch digger and this realisation is the reason why he goes out and digs ditches?? I doubt it.

            Why does the waiter not feel free to quit?? The answer to that is obvious and has nothing to do with some troubled belief. I think you have the kernel of an idea there, but perhaps it could be expressed differently.

            eduard



            -----Original Message-----
            From: Mary
            Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2013 12:27 PM
            To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [existlist] Re: Bad Faith And The Other (Jonathan Webber) 2010

            Here are two statements from Webber's paper which I think fairly represent our contrasting views at this point.

            "Sartre has been accused of being unfair to waiters, for example, and indeed of showing through this vignette a condescending and demeaning attitude towards working people in general (Phillips 1981)." There don't seem to be any free versions of D.Z. Phillips work on line, but you can probably obtain it through a university student who has access.

            "We will see that Sartre's use of these examples is compatible with his overall philosophical theory after all. He does not consider the overt behaviour of these characters to show that they are in bad faith, but rather considers it to be equally compatible with the recognition and affirmation of our lack of any fixed nature."

            This is more what I think and shows that we can hold incoherent thoughts about our being, and the example of the waiter begins to look this way. In other words, he knows and chooses to play at being a waiter precisely because he knows that is not what he is. The example is a universal one and not a singling out of the waiter as a failure. Bad faith is a universal condition according to Sartre. The example of the waiter now seems one of negating an essence (a waiter as an in-itself) for one of existence (human for it-self). It is remains a troubled belief, because the waiter doesn't feel free to quit. So while he may be responsible, he isn't responsible for his freedom.

            Mary

            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome <yeoman@...> wrote:
            >
            > Downloaded the paper. Will take a while to read it.
            >
            > Thanks Mary.
            >
            > eduard
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Mary
            > Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2013 10:18 AM
            > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [existlist] Bad Faith And The Other (Jonathan Webber) 2010
            >
            > Please disregard the earlier reference. This is complete section from one of
            > his books and very accessible.
            >
            > http://www.academia.edu/2989553/Bad_Faith_and_the_Other
            >
            > Since it addresses several concerns and misconceptions regarding Sartre's
            > concept, it might be helpful.
            >
            > Mary
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining nothing!
            >
            > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
            >




            ------------------------------------

            Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining nothing!

            Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links



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