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Re: [existlist] Re: Wants - ResidenSea

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  • Bill Harris
    George, Thank you for your insightful and provacative post, you set the bar high for us. It seems you are in a reflective state and I am in similar
    Message 1 of 33 , Jan 22, 2002
      George, Thank you for your insightful and provacative post, you set the bar
      high for us. It seems you are in a reflective state and I am in similar
      circumstance since this will be my last day of practice at the mall. I have
      been here twenty years. Like you I have visited many religions, trends,
      philosophies and styles. I have always called myself an existentialist but
      any purity in that calling was always suspect. Like you nihilism has
      motavated me but I do not think myself captured by nihilism. My initial
      coming to a mall was motovated by a desire to break with old practice
      concepts, an experiment. Nine other dentists have practiced here with me, I
      do not know how many hygienists and dental assistants have worked here but
      there are many more faces than names. At one time a practise advisor
      estimated that more than five% of the population of the state had sought
      treatment here at one time or another. That is the accomplishment.
      --This morning I came to a realisation, I am witnessing modern evolution in
      process here, now. I know evolution comes in spurts. Negative situations
      cause a culling of many or all of a species. In the lower amimals mutation,
      random mutation may occur to save the population from extinction. In man
      thought intervines in the adaptive possibility, but it is not always
      positive. I have read that in northern Europe , twelve thousand years ago,
      our species was reduced to less than ten thousand individuals. We changed,
      adapted, but most of the adaptation was cognative, not physical. Here in
      Iowa, the original euorpean migration is being culled. The Anglo/german
      physical labor agrarian is dying out. Chemical/mechanical agriculture is
      devastating farmer numbers. The old high fat/carbo diet that sustained hard
      physical labor kills these sedantary machine operators by coronary disease.
      Exposure to agricultural carcinogins kills more. The culture degrades, the
      children leave and nature faces a challenge she is always up to. One way or
      another ,evolution will fill an empty nitche. --So how does my leaving the
      mall relate to this, maby not at all. Perhaps I am responding in a
      substantive way. This mall is now old but keeps its high rent status because
      it has not been challenged/replaced. A big , new mall is planned but the
      managers of this facility have filed suit to stop it on grounds of little
      merit. The suit is berore the state supreme court. The outcome will say a
      great deal about urban growth in this state. I dislike negative,
      obstructionist business practice so I vote with my feet and leave the mall.
      A pebble in a pond but I will not add to the coffers of the foot draggers
      any longer. I do not know if we are at the bottom of this decline, or if I
      will be around to see this vacuum fill . Today, however, I think I am a
      little part of a process that is fascinating. Even an old molar man waxes
      reflective. Bill- Original Message -----
      From: "George Walton" <george@...>
      To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Monday, January 21, 2002 5:01 PM
      Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Wants - ResidenSea


      > Bill,
      >
      > Some wag once said this: there are few things more exasperating in life
      than
      > to find a philosophy you can't talk yourself out of.
      >
      > Hell, I never had any real problems at all with the others. Over the years
      > [and I have 52 of them under my belt now], I have called myself a
      Christian,
      > a Democrat, an Objectivist, an Anarchist, a Marxist, a Socialist, a
      > Libertarian, a Humanist, an Existentialist. A couple hops, steps and a few
      > jumps, however, and I had them deconstructed in short order. Nihilism, on
      > the other hand, has been the "intellectual" monkey on my back now for
      nearly
      > 15 years.
      >
      > Fact is, I have never even come close to talking myself past or around
      this
      > one. Oh sure, I remind myself that nihilism itself is not exempt from its
      > own assumptions. And I also remind myself from time to time that, given
      the
      > context of All There Is, what are the odds that my own personal opinions
      > bear even the remotest resemblance whatsoever to whatever "reality" may or
      > may not be?
      >
      > Doesn't work. At least not for me. And don't forget, as I once pointed
      out,
      > what words "mean" to us can then precipitate emotional and psychological
      > states we become even more entangled in, eh?
      >
      > I am one of the most fragmented people you will ever meet. There is not a
      > single moral or political issue, for example, I do not splinter into a
      > hundred contradictory points of view. I really do believe that the "self"
      is
      > essentially a delusion. "Who" "I" "am" is merely an existentially
      persuasive
      > illusion. A sham we internalize either out of habit or indoctrination or
      > because it is so much, much more comforting to embrace The One And Only
      > Really Really TRUE Truth. Don't sell "piece of mind" short in a world this
      > precarious.
      >
      > Ah, but let's be honest, okay? What really matters when push comes to
      shove
      > in a particular [thinking] person's life is the actual day to day
      > interaction of philosophy and circumstance. On most days, for example, I
      > have plenty of things that bring me pleasure, fulfillment,
      > gratification---music, film, art, my friends at work, my daughter, David
      and
      > the gang in cyberspace etc. I'm hardly depressed or suicidal. But I really
      > do believe that, sooner or later, most people [again, of the thinking
      sort]
      > would gladly trade in all the "wisdom" they have ever accumulated if only
      > the doctor could tell them they do NOT have inoperable cancer.
      >
      > I don't have cancer myself and I'm in relatively good health; but oblivion
      > is no longer something way out there on the horizon I can cram into the
      back
      > of my mind like I once did when I was younger [though "youth" itself is
      > often as much a frame of mind as a chronological number, eh?]. And
      nihilism
      > gives you no respite... no comforting [if intellectually pathetic]
      > rationalizations for shunting aside the horror that really is profoundly
      > embedded in the human condition. Those 18,000 odd children aged 5 and
      > younger who will die in agony from starvation over the next 24 hours on
      > planet Earth....for what? Hell, for that matter, what tiny % of the
      American
      > public [whose government's foreign policy lies behind the
      starvation....the
      > rape of the 3rd world] will even be aware of it? I mean, hey, it's not
      like
      > Entertainment Tonight will have the story in the line up this evening,
      > right?
      >
      > There is the way we want the world to be and there is the way the world
      > actually is. Idealists, of course, abound in informing us not only about
      the
      > way the world SHOULD be but how, if we TOO embrace THE way, it can
      actually
      > BE that way.
      >
      > Not?
      >
      > George
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Bill Harris <bhvwd@...>
      > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Monday, January 21, 2002 4:37 PM
      > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Wants - ResidenSea
      >
      >
      > > George, I doubt that you have many serious reservations about the
      nature
      > of
      > > the reality personally inhabited by you. The confidence you portray is
      not
      > > the possession of one who is insecure. The hood wearers are however
      > another
      > > matter. I do not deal with them in cyberspace, I deal with them eyeball
      on
      > > eyeball at the gun shows. Actually they are quite a varied lot, many of
      > > whom are very interesting and yes, dangerous. There is a great deal of
      > > ideology, but with most of the people there, being very capably in
      their
      > > ability to "off your ass" ,are quite polite. My wife actually enjoys the
      > > show saying she has never seen so many obviously violence prone males
      in
      > > control. Since I have had a lifelong interest in guns they seem not to
      > view
      > > me as a pointy headed doc. What I am saying is we can communicate even
      > > though the forum may seem odd. Any person that can understand
      ballistics
      > > can probably grasp enough science to make sense of this world. The
      > problem
      > > often boils down to heredatary bias and religous mythology. If
      approached
      > > with respect these people can learn, and teach a lot. I find it easy to
      > > respect a guy with a gun. Bill
      > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > From: "George Walton" <george@...>
      > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
      > > Sent: Friday, January 18, 2002 3:51 PM
      > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Wants - ResidenSea
      > >
      > >
      > > > j...
      > > >
      > > > Ideology is philosophy that has long since ceased to
      exist....ossified,
      > if
      > > > you will. On the other hand, how do I then reconcile those words with
      > the
      > > > argument that this rendition itself is just another example of
      > > ossification?
      > > >
      > > > Please, your own rejoinder. You too, may qualify to be one of us, the
      > few,
      > > > the proud...the reality challenged?
      > > >
      > > > George
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > > From: clickhereforinsignificance <livewild@...>
      > > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
      > > > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2002 4:29 PM
      > > > Subject: [existlist] Re: Wants - ResidenSea
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > > << role of philosophy must be to mediate between ideology and
      chaos.>>
      > > > >
      > > > > Interesting statement George.
      > > > >
      > > > > I like how you differentiate between idiology and philosophy but
      I
      > > > > wonder if that is possible. By philosophy playing a role, it seems
      > > > > intrinsic that there is an underlying ideology. It's almost like it
      > > > > must play a role without every saying what specifically it is.
      > > > >
      > > > > J.Aiden
      > > > >
      > > > > ---------------------
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > --- In existlist@y..., "George Walton" <george@r...> wrote:
      > > > > > Bill,
      > > > > >
      > > > > > It is difficult for me to explain myself in here. My responses to
      > > > > you and to
      > > > > > Eduard and to others are analogous to...well...the tip of the
      > > > > proverbial
      > > > > > iceberg. It is, in fact, the many, many folks I blind copy who are
      > > > > the
      > > > > > primary targets. Not that I don't value your intelligent comments.
      > > > > I do. The
      > > > > > motivation, however, is geared more toward the cyber family I
      > > > > belong to. We
      > > > > > collect minds as it were. David is a clinical psychologist and he
      is
      > > > > > interested in the way people intersect and intertwine ideas with
      > > > > emotional
      > > > > > and psychological states. For example, how do our opinions become
      > > > > ensnared
      > > > > > in social intercourse itself? We come to embrace and then to
      > > > > express a
      > > > > > particular point of view and it becomes intertwined in Mom and Dad
      > > > > and Son
      > > > > > and Daughter and Brother and Sister.....in friendships and lovers
      > > > > and the
      > > > > > like. Sometimes they become so intertwined that to pull back from
      a
      > > > > moral or
      > > > > > political or religious conviction is to risk pricking...even
      > > > > severing these
      > > > > > crucial ties that bind. Much of this unfolds sub-consciously, of
      > > > > course, and
      > > > > > we can not even acknowledge to ourselves that it works this way.
      > > > > Reality,
      > > > > > you might say, is very, very tricky.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Admittedly, my MO can be rather acerbic. As I expressed
      previously,
      > > > > however,
      > > > > > it is not personal, at all. Polemics is about being a gladiator.
      > > > > Only the
      > > > > > swords are words. I have found from much experience that great
      > > > > minds love to
      > > > > > tangle. In any event, philosophical confrontations are not nearly
      as
      > > > > > dangerous to me as are political fisticuffs. Politics is often
      > > > > about words
      > > > > > becoming swords; and that is why the role of philosophy must be to
      > > > > mediate
      > > > > > between ideology and chaos.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > George
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > > > > From: Bill Harris <bhvwd@n...>
      > > > > > To: <existlist@y...>
      > > > > > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2002 11:38 AM
      > > > > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Wants - ResidenSea
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > > George, So many apt and difficult questions in your post, can
      you
      > > > > not
      > > > > > learn
      > > > > > > to play gently with others? As to quandry uno, I think what lies
      > > > > behind
      > > > > > > those numbers is a computer which counts the emisions of
      photons,
      > > > > gamma
      > > > > > > rays, infrared rays from source objects. A scientist then looks
      > > > > at those
      > > > > > > numbers and writes down what he thinks they mean. It would seem
      > > > > he starts
      > > > > > > his explanation in mathematics and then translates to verbal
      > > > > language. So
      > > > > > > those particular numbers are there because that is the counting
      > > > > from the
      > > > > > > source object. Why this existance? Because it evolved this way.
      I
      > > > > agree
      > > > > > > other existancies may exist but I think they would be
      dimensionly
      > > > > > different
      > > > > > > and unintelligable to us. It appears that fundamental subatomic
      > > > > entities
      > > > > > > exist which can be components of different constructs, we call
      > > > > the point
      > > > > > on
      > > > > > > the space time continuum where these entities entered this
      > > > > construct the
      > > > > > big
      > > > > > > bang. I see it ending when a massive black hole arrives at free
      > > > > space ,
      > > > > > > flinging its compressed mass in the form of these sub atomic
      > > > > entities,
      > > > > > into
      > > > > > > a new construct of new dimensions. How many times this has
      > > > > occured or will
      > > > > > > occur is not a rational question since all accounting, all
      > > > > rationality is
      > > > > > > reduced in the change of construct. Fuck, this has given me a
      > > > > headache.
      > > > > > > Gotta go drill, fill and bill. Bill
      > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > > > > > From: "George Walton" <george@r...>
      > > > > > > To: <existlist@y...>
      > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2002 7:30 AM
      > > > > > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Wants - ResidenSea
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > Bill,
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > And, I suppose, the "language" of reality is whatever and/or
      > > > > whoever
      > > > > > lies
      > > > > > > > behind those numbers, eh?
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > After all, why those numbers? Why this particular existence
      and
      > > > > not
      > > > > > > another?
      > > > > > > > Again, who are we? Each of us but one of billions---specks,
      > > > > really---on
      > > > > > > this
      > > > > > > > tiny planet in this tiny solar system in this run of the mill
      > > > > galaxy
      > > > > > > amidst
      > > > > > > > billions and billions more. And who is to say that the
      Universe
      > > > > itself,
      > > > > > as
      > > > > > > > science has come to "know" it, is not just but one of many,
      > > > > many others?
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > The Cosmos? How can something not have a beginning? How can
      > > > > something
      > > > > > just
      > > > > > > > be "infinite"? Or, if it "began", what did it begin out of?
      How
      > > > > exactly
      > > > > > > does
      > > > > > > > something come out of nothing at all? Sink down deep enough
      into
      > > > > > questions
      > > > > > > > like that and, as I always say, if you don't feel something
      > > > > akin to
      > > > > > > > "religion", you ain't doing it right.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > But God? A moral vantage point that encompasses the human
      > > > > condition?
      > > > > > Well,
      > > > > > > > perhaps. But given the reality of the 20th century alone,
      > > > > this "entity"
      > > > > > is
      > > > > > > > either not omniscient, not omnipotent or it is one mean,
      > > > > sadistic son of
      > > > > > a
      > > > > > > > bitch.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > As the song says: BirthSchoolWorkDeath. Perhaps wisdom is
      > > > > measured more
      > > > > > by
      > > > > > > > how much closer we are to one end or the other? I sense a lot
      of
      > > > > > academic
      > > > > > > > feathers being ruffled in most venues such as this. Meaning,
      in
      > > > > other
      > > > > > > words,
      > > > > > > > most of the folks are closer to birth than to death. In
      college,
      > > > > > perhaps?
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > Ah, but sooner or later, they have to bring their opinions
      down
      > > > > to
      > > > > > Earth.
      > > > > > > > That's where I come in. I have...uh...entertained lots and
      lots
      > > > > of
      > > > > > > > Philosophers in my day. If you know what I mean.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > George
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > > > > > > From: Bill Harris <bhvwd@n...>
      > > > > > > > To: <existlist@y...>
      > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 3:36 PM
      > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Wants - ResidenSea
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > You point out an inadequacy I have shared in. The real
      > > > > language of
      > > > > > > > physics
      > > > > > > > > is not words, it is numbers. A physician friend withdrew
      from
      > > > > a
      > > > > > > cosmology
      > > > > > > > > coarse, he said it was all numbers. When cosmology is
      > > > > translated from
      > > > > > > > > numbers to words how far have we strayed from the original
      > > > > > > > content/meaning?
      > > > > > > > > I also am to untrained and lazy to go to the numbers, not a
      > > > > real
      > > > > > > > scientist,
      > > > > > > > > a dillatant. So I can have littly defense when you rightly
      > > > > point out
      > > > > > the
      > > > > > > > > inadequacy of words. In defense of this group, however, we
      at
      > > > > least
      > > > > > try
      > > > > > > to
      > > > > > > > > comprehend what is going on in the world of science. I also
      > > > > think we
      > > > > > do
      > > > > > > > > fairly well at avoiding jargon so common in acedemic
      > > > > philosophy. Do
      > > > > > you
      > > > > > > > > think we miss the meat of philosophy much like we may miss
      > > > > the meat of
      > > > > > > > > science by not using philsophys specialised language? Bill
      > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > > > > > > > From: "George Walton" <george@r...>
      > > > > > > > > To: <existlist@y...>
      > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 1:38 PM
      > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Wants - ResidenSea
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > Bill,
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > No, the key word is always "word" itself. What is a word?
      > > > > What are
      > > > > > the
      > > > > > > > > > limits by which a word can or can not convey the nature of
      > > > > reality?
      > > > > > > Are
      > > > > > > > > the
      > > > > > > > > > words physicists use to circumvent inaccuracies in
      > > > > expressions of
      > > > > > what
      > > > > > > > is
      > > > > > > > > or
      > > > > > > > > > is not true about the physical world, for example, the
      same
      > > > > as
      > > > > > > > > philosophers
      > > > > > > > > > use in their expressions of human moral interactions? If a
      > > > > physicist
      > > > > > > > says
      > > > > > > > > > that gravity does not function the same way in Zimbabwe as
      > > > > it does
      > > > > > in
      > > > > > > > > Canada
      > > > > > > > > > how astringently do you suppose other physicists will hold
      > > > > him/her
      > > > > > in
      > > > > > > > > > demonstrating that? If, on the other hand, a philosopher
      > > > > asserts
      > > > > > that
      > > > > > > > > > freedom as construed by a Wall Street broker is different
      > > > > from
      > > > > > freedom
      > > > > > > > as
      > > > > > > > > > construed by an Amish farmer, he/she will have a much
      > > > > easier time
      > > > > > than
      > > > > > > > the
      > > > > > > > > > physicist, eh? There are, after all, so many ways to
      > > > > demonstrate
      > > > > > that
      > > > > > > > the
      > > > > > > > > 2
      > > > > > > > > > cultures are profoundly different. Suppose, though, that a
      > > > > > philosopher
      > > > > > > > > > insists that freedom as construed by the Amish farmer is
      > > > > better or
      > > > > > > wiser
      > > > > > > > > or
      > > > > > > > > > truer to human nature than freedom as construed by the
      > > > > broker. How
      > > > > > > > exactly
      > > > > > > > > > would this philosopher go about demonstrating that?
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > Again, philosophy is mostly about words that largely
      denote
      > > > > and
      > > > > > words
      > > > > > > > that
      > > > > > > > > > largely connote. The word freedom denotes only what
      someone
      > > > > > [embedded
      > > > > > > in
      > > > > > > > a
      > > > > > > > > > particular existential context] connotes it to be.
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > Now, of course, Eduard will show us how, in the historical
      > > > > movement
      > > > > > of
      > > > > > > > > > existential contexts, he can pluck out a moral content
      that
      > > > > will,
      > > > > > for
      > > > > > > > all
      > > > > > > > > > intents and purposes, most rationally embrace
      > > > > the...uh...truest
      > > > > > moral
      > > > > > > > > > content of all.
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > Here, I will give him yet another actual human interaction
      > > > > by which
      > > > > > to
      > > > > > > > > > express a continuum from most to least moral: the role of
      > > > > government
      > > > > > > in
      > > > > > > > > the
      > > > > > > > > > lives of its citizens.
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > George
      > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > > > > > > > > From: Eduard Alf <yeoman@v...>
      > > > > > > > > > To: <existlist@y...>
      > > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 1:55 PM
      > > > > > > > > > Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: Wants - ResidenSea
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > Bill,
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > the key word is "worship". It does not matter what it
      > > > > is. The
      > > > > > > > gravity
      > > > > > > > > > > idea, however, would probably work. At least it is
      > > > > something you
      > > > > > > can
      > > > > > > > > > always
      > > > > > > > > > > be certain of. And you can always carry a small stone
      > > > > with you
      > > > > > when
      > > > > > > > you
      > > > > > > > > > > travel ... as opposed to carrying around a heavy bible.
      > > > > You have
      > > > > > > > given
      > > > > > > > > me
      > > > > > > > > > > an idea, though ... I shall have to work on it.
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > eduard
      > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
      > > > > > > > > > > From: Bill Harris [mailto:bhvwd@n...]
      > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 11:54 AM
      > > > > > > > > > > To: existlist@y...
      > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Wants - ResidenSea
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > Eduard, Thinking of worship as a celebration, we could
      > > > > jump up
      > > > > > and
      > > > > > > > > down
      > > > > > > > > > > and
      > > > > > > > > > > throw things and watch them fall back to earth, in our
      > > > > worship
      > > > > > of
      > > > > > > > > > gravity.
      > > > > > > > > > > Bill
      > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > > > > > > > > > From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@v...>
      > > > > > > > > > > To: <existlist@y...>
      > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2002 5:39 PM
      > > > > > > > > > > Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: Wants - ResidenSea
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > > Bill,
      > > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, you are indeed walking on adventuresome ground.
      > > > > It all
      > > > > > > gets
      > > > > > > > > back
      > > > > > > > > > > to
      > > > > > > > > > > > our previous discussion that "man is wired for god".
      > > > > For lack
      > > > > > > of
      > > > > > > > a
      > > > > > > > > > > better
      > > > > > > > > > > > phrase, I would say that there is a desire
      > > > > for "connectiveness
      > > > > > > > with
      > > > > > > > > > the
      > > > > > > > > > > > universe". That there is something beyond the
      > > > > mysteries. If
      > > > > > it
      > > > > > > > was
      > > > > > > > > > > only
      > > > > > > > > > > a
      > > > > > > > > > > > matter of trying to find answers to things like
      > > > > thunder
      > > > > > [Thor's
      > > > > > > > > > Hammer]
      > > > > > > > > > > then
      > > > > > > > > > > > that would be the end to it. But something else
      nags
      > > > > us on to
      > > > > > > > seek
      > > > > > > > > > > after
      > > > > > > > > > > > spirituality.
      > > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > > It is something that I am very much interested. And
      > > > > I would
      > > > > > > love
      > > > > > > > to
      > > > > > > > > > get
      > > > > > > > > > > > into a discussion on it [a true discussion]. But I
      > > > > wonder if
      > > > > > > this
      > > > > > > > > is
      > > > > > > > > > > the
      > > > > > > > > > > > forum.
      > > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > > eduard
      > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
      > > > > > > > > > > > From: Bill Harris [mailto:bhvwd@n...]
      > > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2002 1:38 PM
      > > > > > > > > > > > To: existlist@y...
      > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Wants - ResidenSea
      > > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > > Eduard, I have hesitated to start this post for
      > > > > over a month
      > > > > > > > now,
      > > > > > > > > > much
      > > > > > > > > > > to
      > > > > > > > > > > > fear being called the crackpot. Yet this forum
      > > > > has a
      > > > > > spirit
      > > > > > > of
      > > > > > > > > > > > intellectual adventurism that invites risk. Like
      > > > > most of us
      > > > > > I
      > > > > > > > > have
      > > > > > > > > > an
      > > > > > > > > > > > interest in cosmology and a show on the origins of
      > > > > bursts of
      > > > > > > > > cosmic
      > > > > > > > > > > rays
      > > > > > > > > > > > started me thinking about the remaining mysteries
      > > > > in the
      > > > > > > > universe
      > > > > > > > > > and
      > > > > > > > > > > > their
      > > > > > > > > > > > impact upon philosophy. The particular riddle
      about
      > > > > the
      > > > > > energy
      > > > > > > > > > bursts
      > > > > > > > > > > was
      > > > > > > > > > > > resolved by the discovery of hypernovi which are
      > > > > super
      > > > > > stars
      > > > > > > in
      > > > > > > > > > > > collapse.This process is capable of rendering
      whole
      > > > > galaxys
      > > > > > > > > lifeless
      > > > > > > > > > > and
      > > > > > > > > > > > may
      > > > > > > > > > > > have eradicated many civilisations, but I digress.
      > > > > In the
      > > > > > > grecko
      > > > > > > > > > Roman
      > > > > > > > > > > > mythology we see the gods associated with the
      > > > > mysteries of
      > > > > > > > nature.
      > > > > > > > > > > When
      > > > > > > > > > > > they
      > > > > > > > > > > > did not understand a phenominon it was diefied.
      > > > > Posidon was
      > > > > > > > > > > responsible
      > > > > > > > > > > > for
      > > > > > > > > > > > the mysterous events that took place at sea ect,
      > > > > ect. Slowly
      > > > > > > as
      > > > > > > > > men
      > > > > > > > > > > began
      > > > > > > > > > > > to
      > > > > > > > > > > > understand the sea, the wind, the forest, those
      gods
      > > > > > receeded
      > > > > > > > and
      > > > > > > > > > were
      > > > > > > > > > > > replaced with facts. Not as much fun but more
      > > > > useful. In
      > > > > > the
      > > > > > > > > Judeo
      > > > > > > > > > > > christian tradition the gods were singularised and
      > > > > > personified
      > > > > > > > > into
      > > > > > > > > > > the
      > > > > > > > > > > > supposed progress of monotheism. We encompassed
      > > > > all mystery
      > > > > > > in
      > > > > > > > > the
      > > > > > > > > > > > creation
      > > > > > > > > > > > of this one god. It was neat but useful for little
      > > > > else than
      > > > > > > > > > worship.
      > > > > > > > > > > > Science began to erode away the mysteries of the
      > > > > universe
      > > > > > and
      > > > > > > > the
      > > > > > > > > > > > mysterous
      > > > > > > > > > > > monotheistic god died. I know because I read of it
      > > > > in the
      > > > > > New
      > > > > > > > York
      > > > > > > > > > > Times.
      > > > > > > > > > > > I
      > > > > > > > > > > > think it important to return to those thrilling
      > > > > days of
      > > > > > > > yesteryear
      > > > > > > > > > > because
      > > > > > > > > > > > there remains a great god of mystery in the
      grecko
      > > > > roman
      > > > > > > > > tradition.
      > > > > > > > > > > he
      > > > > > > > > > > is
      > > > > > > > > > > > a universally operant god of staggering power and
      > > > > mystery.
      > > > > > We
      > > > > > > > see
      > > > > > > > > > his
      > > > > > > > > > > > effects in all activity throughout the entire
      > > > > cosmos. The
      > > > > > > > greatest
      > > > > > > > > > > > physicists have not explained nor debunked him. I
      > > > > give you
      > > > > > for
      > > > > > > > > > study,
      > > > > > > > > > > > contemplation, and yes worship, GRAVITY. Bill
      > > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
      removed]
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    • Bill Harris
      George, Thank you for your insightful and provacative post, you set the bar high for us. It seems you are in a reflective state and I am in similar
      Message 33 of 33 , Dec 22, 1945
        George, Thank you for your insightful and provacative post, you set the bar
        high for us. It seems you are in a reflective state and I am in similar
        circumstance since this will be my last day of practice at the mall. I have
        been here twenty years. Like you I have visited many religions, trends,
        philosophies and styles. I have always called myself an existentialist but
        any purity in that calling was always suspect. Like you nihilism has
        motavated me but I do not think myself captured by nihilism. My initial
        coming to a mall was motovated by a desire to break with old practice
        concepts, an experiment. Nine other dentists have practiced here with me, I
        do not know how many hygienists and dental assistants have worked here but
        there are many more faces than names. At one time a practise advisor
        estimated that more than five% of the population of the state had sought
        treatment here at one time or another. That is the accomplishment.
        --This morning I came to a realisation, I am witnessing modern evolution in
        process here, now. I know evolution comes in spurts. Negative situations
        cause a culling of many or all of a species. In the lower amimals mutation,
        random mutation may occur to save the population from extinction. In man
        thought intervines in the adaptive possibility, but it is not always
        positive. I have read that in northern Europe , twelve thousand years ago,
        our species was reduced to less than ten thousand individuals. We changed,
        adapted, but most of the adaptation was cognative, not physical. Here in
        Iowa, the original euorpean migration is being culled. The Anglo/german
        physical labor agrarian is dying out. Chemical/mechanical agriculture is
        devastating farmer numbers. The old high fat/carbo diet that sustained hard
        physical labor kills these sedantary machine operators by coronary disease.
        Exposure to agricultural carcinogins kills more. The culture degrades, the
        children leave and nature faces a challenge she is always up to. One way or
        another ,evolution will fill an empty nitche. --So how does my leaving the
        mall relate to this, maby not at all. Perhaps I am responding in a
        substantive way. This mall is now old but keeps its high rent status because
        it has not been challenged/replaced. A big , new mall is planned but the
        managers of this facility have filed suit to stop it on grounds of little
        merit. The suit is berore the state supreme court. The outcome will say a
        great deal about urban growth in this state. I dislike negative,
        obstructionist business practice so I vote with my feet and leave the mall.
        A pebble in a pond but I will not add to the coffers of the foot draggers
        any longer. I do not know if we are at the bottom of this decline, or if I
        will be around to see this vacuum fill . Today, however, I think I am a
        little part of a process that is fascinating. Even an old molar man waxes
        reflective. Bill- Original Message -----
        From: "George Walton" <george@...>
        To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Monday, January 21, 2002 5:01 PM
        Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Wants - ResidenSea


        > Bill,
        >
        > Some wag once said this: there are few things more exasperating in life
        than
        > to find a philosophy you can't talk yourself out of.
        >
        > Hell, I never had any real problems at all with the others. Over the years
        > [and I have 52 of them under my belt now], I have called myself a
        Christian,
        > a Democrat, an Objectivist, an Anarchist, a Marxist, a Socialist, a
        > Libertarian, a Humanist, an Existentialist. A couple hops, steps and a few
        > jumps, however, and I had them deconstructed in short order. Nihilism, on
        > the other hand, has been the "intellectual" monkey on my back now for
        nearly
        > 15 years.
        >
        > Fact is, I have never even come close to talking myself past or around
        this
        > one. Oh sure, I remind myself that nihilism itself is not exempt from its
        > own assumptions. And I also remind myself from time to time that, given
        the
        > context of All There Is, what are the odds that my own personal opinions
        > bear even the remotest resemblance whatsoever to whatever "reality" may or
        > may not be?
        >
        > Doesn't work. At least not for me. And don't forget, as I once pointed
        out,
        > what words "mean" to us can then precipitate emotional and psychological
        > states we become even more entangled in, eh?
        >
        > I am one of the most fragmented people you will ever meet. There is not a
        > single moral or political issue, for example, I do not splinter into a
        > hundred contradictory points of view. I really do believe that the "self"
        is
        > essentially a delusion. "Who" "I" "am" is merely an existentially
        persuasive
        > illusion. A sham we internalize either out of habit or indoctrination or
        > because it is so much, much more comforting to embrace The One And Only
        > Really Really TRUE Truth. Don't sell "piece of mind" short in a world this
        > precarious.
        >
        > Ah, but let's be honest, okay? What really matters when push comes to
        shove
        > in a particular [thinking] person's life is the actual day to day
        > interaction of philosophy and circumstance. On most days, for example, I
        > have plenty of things that bring me pleasure, fulfillment,
        > gratification---music, film, art, my friends at work, my daughter, David
        and
        > the gang in cyberspace etc. I'm hardly depressed or suicidal. But I really
        > do believe that, sooner or later, most people [again, of the thinking
        sort]
        > would gladly trade in all the "wisdom" they have ever accumulated if only
        > the doctor could tell them they do NOT have inoperable cancer.
        >
        > I don't have cancer myself and I'm in relatively good health; but oblivion
        > is no longer something way out there on the horizon I can cram into the
        back
        > of my mind like I once did when I was younger [though "youth" itself is
        > often as much a frame of mind as a chronological number, eh?]. And
        nihilism
        > gives you no respite... no comforting [if intellectually pathetic]
        > rationalizations for shunting aside the horror that really is profoundly
        > embedded in the human condition. Those 18,000 odd children aged 5 and
        > younger who will die in agony from starvation over the next 24 hours on
        > planet Earth....for what? Hell, for that matter, what tiny % of the
        American
        > public [whose government's foreign policy lies behind the
        starvation....the
        > rape of the 3rd world] will even be aware of it? I mean, hey, it's not
        like
        > Entertainment Tonight will have the story in the line up this evening,
        > right?
        >
        > There is the way we want the world to be and there is the way the world
        > actually is. Idealists, of course, abound in informing us not only about
        the
        > way the world SHOULD be but how, if we TOO embrace THE way, it can
        actually
        > BE that way.
        >
        > Not?
        >
        > George
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: Bill Harris <bhvwd@...>
        > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Monday, January 21, 2002 4:37 PM
        > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Wants - ResidenSea
        >
        >
        > > George, I doubt that you have many serious reservations about the
        nature
        > of
        > > the reality personally inhabited by you. The confidence you portray is
        not
        > > the possession of one who is insecure. The hood wearers are however
        > another
        > > matter. I do not deal with them in cyberspace, I deal with them eyeball
        on
        > > eyeball at the gun shows. Actually they are quite a varied lot, many of
        > > whom are very interesting and yes, dangerous. There is a great deal of
        > > ideology, but with most of the people there, being very capably in
        their
        > > ability to "off your ass" ,are quite polite. My wife actually enjoys the
        > > show saying she has never seen so many obviously violence prone males
        in
        > > control. Since I have had a lifelong interest in guns they seem not to
        > view
        > > me as a pointy headed doc. What I am saying is we can communicate even
        > > though the forum may seem odd. Any person that can understand
        ballistics
        > > can probably grasp enough science to make sense of this world. The
        > problem
        > > often boils down to heredatary bias and religous mythology. If
        approached
        > > with respect these people can learn, and teach a lot. I find it easy to
        > > respect a guy with a gun. Bill
        > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > From: "George Walton" <george@...>
        > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
        > > Sent: Friday, January 18, 2002 3:51 PM
        > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Wants - ResidenSea
        > >
        > >
        > > > j...
        > > >
        > > > Ideology is philosophy that has long since ceased to
        exist....ossified,
        > if
        > > > you will. On the other hand, how do I then reconcile those words with
        > the
        > > > argument that this rendition itself is just another example of
        > > ossification?
        > > >
        > > > Please, your own rejoinder. You too, may qualify to be one of us, the
        > few,
        > > > the proud...the reality challenged?
        > > >
        > > > George
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > > From: clickhereforinsignificance <livewild@...>
        > > > To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
        > > > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2002 4:29 PM
        > > > Subject: [existlist] Re: Wants - ResidenSea
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > > << role of philosophy must be to mediate between ideology and
        chaos.>>
        > > > >
        > > > > Interesting statement George.
        > > > >
        > > > > I like how you differentiate between idiology and philosophy but
        I
        > > > > wonder if that is possible. By philosophy playing a role, it seems
        > > > > intrinsic that there is an underlying ideology. It's almost like it
        > > > > must play a role without every saying what specifically it is.
        > > > >
        > > > > J.Aiden
        > > > >
        > > > > ---------------------
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > --- In existlist@y..., "George Walton" <george@r...> wrote:
        > > > > > Bill,
        > > > > >
        > > > > > It is difficult for me to explain myself in here. My responses to
        > > > > you and to
        > > > > > Eduard and to others are analogous to...well...the tip of the
        > > > > proverbial
        > > > > > iceberg. It is, in fact, the many, many folks I blind copy who are
        > > > > the
        > > > > > primary targets. Not that I don't value your intelligent comments.
        > > > > I do. The
        > > > > > motivation, however, is geared more toward the cyber family I
        > > > > belong to. We
        > > > > > collect minds as it were. David is a clinical psychologist and he
        is
        > > > > > interested in the way people intersect and intertwine ideas with
        > > > > emotional
        > > > > > and psychological states. For example, how do our opinions become
        > > > > ensnared
        > > > > > in social intercourse itself? We come to embrace and then to
        > > > > express a
        > > > > > particular point of view and it becomes intertwined in Mom and Dad
        > > > > and Son
        > > > > > and Daughter and Brother and Sister.....in friendships and lovers
        > > > > and the
        > > > > > like. Sometimes they become so intertwined that to pull back from
        a
        > > > > moral or
        > > > > > political or religious conviction is to risk pricking...even
        > > > > severing these
        > > > > > crucial ties that bind. Much of this unfolds sub-consciously, of
        > > > > course, and
        > > > > > we can not even acknowledge to ourselves that it works this way.
        > > > > Reality,
        > > > > > you might say, is very, very tricky.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Admittedly, my MO can be rather acerbic. As I expressed
        previously,
        > > > > however,
        > > > > > it is not personal, at all. Polemics is about being a gladiator.
        > > > > Only the
        > > > > > swords are words. I have found from much experience that great
        > > > > minds love to
        > > > > > tangle. In any event, philosophical confrontations are not nearly
        as
        > > > > > dangerous to me as are political fisticuffs. Politics is often
        > > > > about words
        > > > > > becoming swords; and that is why the role of philosophy must be to
        > > > > mediate
        > > > > > between ideology and chaos.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > George
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > > > > From: Bill Harris <bhvwd@n...>
        > > > > > To: <existlist@y...>
        > > > > > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2002 11:38 AM
        > > > > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Wants - ResidenSea
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > > George, So many apt and difficult questions in your post, can
        you
        > > > > not
        > > > > > learn
        > > > > > > to play gently with others? As to quandry uno, I think what lies
        > > > > behind
        > > > > > > those numbers is a computer which counts the emisions of
        photons,
        > > > > gamma
        > > > > > > rays, infrared rays from source objects. A scientist then looks
        > > > > at those
        > > > > > > numbers and writes down what he thinks they mean. It would seem
        > > > > he starts
        > > > > > > his explanation in mathematics and then translates to verbal
        > > > > language. So
        > > > > > > those particular numbers are there because that is the counting
        > > > > from the
        > > > > > > source object. Why this existance? Because it evolved this way.
        I
        > > > > agree
        > > > > > > other existancies may exist but I think they would be
        dimensionly
        > > > > > different
        > > > > > > and unintelligable to us. It appears that fundamental subatomic
        > > > > entities
        > > > > > > exist which can be components of different constructs, we call
        > > > > the point
        > > > > > on
        > > > > > > the space time continuum where these entities entered this
        > > > > construct the
        > > > > > big
        > > > > > > bang. I see it ending when a massive black hole arrives at free
        > > > > space ,
        > > > > > > flinging its compressed mass in the form of these sub atomic
        > > > > entities,
        > > > > > into
        > > > > > > a new construct of new dimensions. How many times this has
        > > > > occured or will
        > > > > > > occur is not a rational question since all accounting, all
        > > > > rationality is
        > > > > > > reduced in the change of construct. Fuck, this has given me a
        > > > > headache.
        > > > > > > Gotta go drill, fill and bill. Bill
        > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > > > > > From: "George Walton" <george@r...>
        > > > > > > To: <existlist@y...>
        > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2002 7:30 AM
        > > > > > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Wants - ResidenSea
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Bill,
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > And, I suppose, the "language" of reality is whatever and/or
        > > > > whoever
        > > > > > lies
        > > > > > > > behind those numbers, eh?
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > After all, why those numbers? Why this particular existence
        and
        > > > > not
        > > > > > > another?
        > > > > > > > Again, who are we? Each of us but one of billions---specks,
        > > > > really---on
        > > > > > > this
        > > > > > > > tiny planet in this tiny solar system in this run of the mill
        > > > > galaxy
        > > > > > > amidst
        > > > > > > > billions and billions more. And who is to say that the
        Universe
        > > > > itself,
        > > > > > as
        > > > > > > > science has come to "know" it, is not just but one of many,
        > > > > many others?
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > The Cosmos? How can something not have a beginning? How can
        > > > > something
        > > > > > just
        > > > > > > > be "infinite"? Or, if it "began", what did it begin out of?
        How
        > > > > exactly
        > > > > > > does
        > > > > > > > something come out of nothing at all? Sink down deep enough
        into
        > > > > > questions
        > > > > > > > like that and, as I always say, if you don't feel something
        > > > > akin to
        > > > > > > > "religion", you ain't doing it right.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > But God? A moral vantage point that encompasses the human
        > > > > condition?
        > > > > > Well,
        > > > > > > > perhaps. But given the reality of the 20th century alone,
        > > > > this "entity"
        > > > > > is
        > > > > > > > either not omniscient, not omnipotent or it is one mean,
        > > > > sadistic son of
        > > > > > a
        > > > > > > > bitch.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > As the song says: BirthSchoolWorkDeath. Perhaps wisdom is
        > > > > measured more
        > > > > > by
        > > > > > > > how much closer we are to one end or the other? I sense a lot
        of
        > > > > > academic
        > > > > > > > feathers being ruffled in most venues such as this. Meaning,
        in
        > > > > other
        > > > > > > words,
        > > > > > > > most of the folks are closer to birth than to death. In
        college,
        > > > > > perhaps?
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Ah, but sooner or later, they have to bring their opinions
        down
        > > > > to
        > > > > > Earth.
        > > > > > > > That's where I come in. I have...uh...entertained lots and
        lots
        > > > > of
        > > > > > > > Philosophers in my day. If you know what I mean.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > George
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > > > > > > From: Bill Harris <bhvwd@n...>
        > > > > > > > To: <existlist@y...>
        > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 3:36 PM
        > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Wants - ResidenSea
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > You point out an inadequacy I have shared in. The real
        > > > > language of
        > > > > > > > physics
        > > > > > > > > is not words, it is numbers. A physician friend withdrew
        from
        > > > > a
        > > > > > > cosmology
        > > > > > > > > coarse, he said it was all numbers. When cosmology is
        > > > > translated from
        > > > > > > > > numbers to words how far have we strayed from the original
        > > > > > > > content/meaning?
        > > > > > > > > I also am to untrained and lazy to go to the numbers, not a
        > > > > real
        > > > > > > > scientist,
        > > > > > > > > a dillatant. So I can have littly defense when you rightly
        > > > > point out
        > > > > > the
        > > > > > > > > inadequacy of words. In defense of this group, however, we
        at
        > > > > least
        > > > > > try
        > > > > > > to
        > > > > > > > > comprehend what is going on in the world of science. I also
        > > > > think we
        > > > > > do
        > > > > > > > > fairly well at avoiding jargon so common in acedemic
        > > > > philosophy. Do
        > > > > > you
        > > > > > > > > think we miss the meat of philosophy much like we may miss
        > > > > the meat of
        > > > > > > > > science by not using philsophys specialised language? Bill
        > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > > > > > > > From: "George Walton" <george@r...>
        > > > > > > > > To: <existlist@y...>
        > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 1:38 PM
        > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Wants - ResidenSea
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > Bill,
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > No, the key word is always "word" itself. What is a word?
        > > > > What are
        > > > > > the
        > > > > > > > > > limits by which a word can or can not convey the nature of
        > > > > reality?
        > > > > > > Are
        > > > > > > > > the
        > > > > > > > > > words physicists use to circumvent inaccuracies in
        > > > > expressions of
        > > > > > what
        > > > > > > > is
        > > > > > > > > or
        > > > > > > > > > is not true about the physical world, for example, the
        same
        > > > > as
        > > > > > > > > philosophers
        > > > > > > > > > use in their expressions of human moral interactions? If a
        > > > > physicist
        > > > > > > > says
        > > > > > > > > > that gravity does not function the same way in Zimbabwe as
        > > > > it does
        > > > > > in
        > > > > > > > > Canada
        > > > > > > > > > how astringently do you suppose other physicists will hold
        > > > > him/her
        > > > > > in
        > > > > > > > > > demonstrating that? If, on the other hand, a philosopher
        > > > > asserts
        > > > > > that
        > > > > > > > > > freedom as construed by a Wall Street broker is different
        > > > > from
        > > > > > freedom
        > > > > > > > as
        > > > > > > > > > construed by an Amish farmer, he/she will have a much
        > > > > easier time
        > > > > > than
        > > > > > > > the
        > > > > > > > > > physicist, eh? There are, after all, so many ways to
        > > > > demonstrate
        > > > > > that
        > > > > > > > the
        > > > > > > > > 2
        > > > > > > > > > cultures are profoundly different. Suppose, though, that a
        > > > > > philosopher
        > > > > > > > > > insists that freedom as construed by the Amish farmer is
        > > > > better or
        > > > > > > wiser
        > > > > > > > > or
        > > > > > > > > > truer to human nature than freedom as construed by the
        > > > > broker. How
        > > > > > > > exactly
        > > > > > > > > > would this philosopher go about demonstrating that?
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > Again, philosophy is mostly about words that largely
        denote
        > > > > and
        > > > > > words
        > > > > > > > that
        > > > > > > > > > largely connote. The word freedom denotes only what
        someone
        > > > > > [embedded
        > > > > > > in
        > > > > > > > a
        > > > > > > > > > particular existential context] connotes it to be.
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > Now, of course, Eduard will show us how, in the historical
        > > > > movement
        > > > > > of
        > > > > > > > > > existential contexts, he can pluck out a moral content
        that
        > > > > will,
        > > > > > for
        > > > > > > > all
        > > > > > > > > > intents and purposes, most rationally embrace
        > > > > the...uh...truest
        > > > > > moral
        > > > > > > > > > content of all.
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > Here, I will give him yet another actual human interaction
        > > > > by which
        > > > > > to
        > > > > > > > > > express a continuum from most to least moral: the role of
        > > > > government
        > > > > > > in
        > > > > > > > > the
        > > > > > > > > > lives of its citizens.
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > George
        > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > > > > > > > > From: Eduard Alf <yeoman@v...>
        > > > > > > > > > To: <existlist@y...>
        > > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 1:55 PM
        > > > > > > > > > Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: Wants - ResidenSea
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > Bill,
        > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > the key word is "worship". It does not matter what it
        > > > > is. The
        > > > > > > > gravity
        > > > > > > > > > > idea, however, would probably work. At least it is
        > > > > something you
        > > > > > > can
        > > > > > > > > > always
        > > > > > > > > > > be certain of. And you can always carry a small stone
        > > > > with you
        > > > > > when
        > > > > > > > you
        > > > > > > > > > > travel ... as opposed to carrying around a heavy bible.
        > > > > You have
        > > > > > > > given
        > > > > > > > > me
        > > > > > > > > > > an idea, though ... I shall have to work on it.
        > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > eduard
        > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
        > > > > > > > > > > From: Bill Harris [mailto:bhvwd@n...]
        > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 11:54 AM
        > > > > > > > > > > To: existlist@y...
        > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Wants - ResidenSea
        > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > Eduard, Thinking of worship as a celebration, we could
        > > > > jump up
        > > > > > and
        > > > > > > > > down
        > > > > > > > > > > and
        > > > > > > > > > > throw things and watch them fall back to earth, in our
        > > > > worship
        > > > > > of
        > > > > > > > > > gravity.
        > > > > > > > > > > Bill
        > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > > > > > > > > > From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@v...>
        > > > > > > > > > > To: <existlist@y...>
        > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2002 5:39 PM
        > > > > > > > > > > Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: Wants - ResidenSea
        > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > > Bill,
        > > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, you are indeed walking on adventuresome ground.
        > > > > It all
        > > > > > > gets
        > > > > > > > > back
        > > > > > > > > > > to
        > > > > > > > > > > > our previous discussion that "man is wired for god".
        > > > > For lack
        > > > > > > of
        > > > > > > > a
        > > > > > > > > > > better
        > > > > > > > > > > > phrase, I would say that there is a desire
        > > > > for "connectiveness
        > > > > > > > with
        > > > > > > > > > the
        > > > > > > > > > > > universe". That there is something beyond the
        > > > > mysteries. If
        > > > > > it
        > > > > > > > was
        > > > > > > > > > > only
        > > > > > > > > > > a
        > > > > > > > > > > > matter of trying to find answers to things like
        > > > > thunder
        > > > > > [Thor's
        > > > > > > > > > Hammer]
        > > > > > > > > > > then
        > > > > > > > > > > > that would be the end to it. But something else
        nags
        > > > > us on to
        > > > > > > > seek
        > > > > > > > > > > after
        > > > > > > > > > > > spirituality.
        > > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > > It is something that I am very much interested. And
        > > > > I would
        > > > > > > love
        > > > > > > > to
        > > > > > > > > > get
        > > > > > > > > > > > into a discussion on it [a true discussion]. But I
        > > > > wonder if
        > > > > > > this
        > > > > > > > > is
        > > > > > > > > > > the
        > > > > > > > > > > > forum.
        > > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > > eduard
        > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
        > > > > > > > > > > > From: Bill Harris [mailto:bhvwd@n...]
        > > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2002 1:38 PM
        > > > > > > > > > > > To: existlist@y...
        > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Wants - ResidenSea
        > > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > > Eduard, I have hesitated to start this post for
        > > > > over a month
        > > > > > > > now,
        > > > > > > > > > much
        > > > > > > > > > > to
        > > > > > > > > > > > fear being called the crackpot. Yet this forum
        > > > > has a
        > > > > > spirit
        > > > > > > of
        > > > > > > > > > > > intellectual adventurism that invites risk. Like
        > > > > most of us
        > > > > > I
        > > > > > > > > have
        > > > > > > > > > an
        > > > > > > > > > > > interest in cosmology and a show on the origins of
        > > > > bursts of
        > > > > > > > > cosmic
        > > > > > > > > > > rays
        > > > > > > > > > > > started me thinking about the remaining mysteries
        > > > > in the
        > > > > > > > universe
        > > > > > > > > > and
        > > > > > > > > > > > their
        > > > > > > > > > > > impact upon philosophy. The particular riddle
        about
        > > > > the
        > > > > > energy
        > > > > > > > > > bursts
        > > > > > > > > > > was
        > > > > > > > > > > > resolved by the discovery of hypernovi which are
        > > > > super
        > > > > > stars
        > > > > > > in
        > > > > > > > > > > > collapse.This process is capable of rendering
        whole
        > > > > galaxys
        > > > > > > > > lifeless
        > > > > > > > > > > and
        > > > > > > > > > > > may
        > > > > > > > > > > > have eradicated many civilisations, but I digress.
        > > > > In the
        > > > > > > grecko
        > > > > > > > > > Roman
        > > > > > > > > > > > mythology we see the gods associated with the
        > > > > mysteries of
        > > > > > > > nature.
        > > > > > > > > > > When
        > > > > > > > > > > > they
        > > > > > > > > > > > did not understand a phenominon it was diefied.
        > > > > Posidon was
        > > > > > > > > > > responsible
        > > > > > > > > > > > for
        > > > > > > > > > > > the mysterous events that took place at sea ect,
        > > > > ect. Slowly
        > > > > > > as
        > > > > > > > > men
        > > > > > > > > > > began
        > > > > > > > > > > > to
        > > > > > > > > > > > understand the sea, the wind, the forest, those
        gods
        > > > > > receeded
        > > > > > > > and
        > > > > > > > > > were
        > > > > > > > > > > > replaced with facts. Not as much fun but more
        > > > > useful. In
        > > > > > the
        > > > > > > > > Judeo
        > > > > > > > > > > > christian tradition the gods were singularised and
        > > > > > personified
        > > > > > > > > into
        > > > > > > > > > > the
        > > > > > > > > > > > supposed progress of monotheism. We encompassed
        > > > > all mystery
        > > > > > > in
        > > > > > > > > the
        > > > > > > > > > > > creation
        > > > > > > > > > > > of this one god. It was neat but useful for little
        > > > > else than
        > > > > > > > > > worship.
        > > > > > > > > > > > Science began to erode away the mysteries of the
        > > > > universe
        > > > > > and
        > > > > > > > the
        > > > > > > > > > > > mysterous
        > > > > > > > > > > > monotheistic god died. I know because I read of it
        > > > > in the
        > > > > > New
        > > > > > > > York
        > > > > > > > > > > Times.
        > > > > > > > > > > > I
        > > > > > > > > > > > think it important to return to those thrilling
        > > > > days of
        > > > > > > > yesteryear
        > > > > > > > > > > because
        > > > > > > > > > > > there remains a great god of mystery in the
        grecko
        > > > > roman
        > > > > > > > > tradition.
        > > > > > > > > > > he
        > > > > > > > > > > is
        > > > > > > > > > > > a universally operant god of staggering power and
        > > > > mystery.
        > > > > > We
        > > > > > > > see
        > > > > > > > > > his
        > > > > > > > > > > > effects in all activity throughout the entire
        > > > > cosmos. The
        > > > > > > > greatest
        > > > > > > > > > > > physicists have not explained nor debunked him. I
        > > > > give you
        > > > > > for
        > > > > > > > > > study,
        > > > > > > > > > > > contemplation, and yes worship, GRAVITY. Bill
        > > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
        removed]
        > > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > >
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