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Re: Guantanamo

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  • Jim
    Peter, Thank you for your powerful and moving post. I had not heard of the hunger strike in Guantanamo Bay detention camp. It is shameful that a supposed
    Message 1 of 14 , Mar 26, 2013
      Peter,

      Thank you for your powerful and moving post.

      I had not heard of the hunger strike in Guantanamo Bay detention camp.

      It is shameful that a supposed democratic and free nation like the United States of America can lock people up without charge or trial for eleven years. This is the sort of behaviour the USA used to criticise the "evil empire" of the Soviet Union for.

      I thought Obama had promised to close Guantanamo Bay down in his first election manifesto. Has the man no principles?

      Jim
    • wsindarius
      Jim, Obama has made it more or less plain that he feels powerless to do these bolder things until and unless the public itself demands their doing in no
      Message 2 of 14 , Mar 26, 2013
        Jim,

        Obama has made it more or less plain that he feels powerless to do these bolder things until and unless the public itself demands their doing in no uncertain terms. I am not sure what that means exactly, if he wants people in the streets and making clamor over it or what, but even the same sex marriage statement was made only after it had become a main event in the news (and after Biden forced his hand with his own statement of position).

        A matter of political expediency? A lack of will? A weak presidency? Could be any of these.

        Wil


        -----Original Message-----
        From: Jim <jjimstuart1@...>
        To: existlist <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Tue, Mar 26, 2013 7:36 am
        Subject: [existlist] Re: Guantanamo





        Peter,

        Thank you for your powerful and moving post.

        I had not heard of the hunger strike in Guantanamo Bay detention camp.

        It is shameful that a supposed democratic and free nation like the United States of America can lock people up without charge or trial for eleven years. This is the sort of behaviour the USA used to criticise the "evil empire" of the Soviet Union for.

        I thought Obama had promised to close Guantanamo Bay down in his first election manifesto. Has the man no principles?

        Jim









        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Jim
        Wil, I would have thought that if it was part of his election manifesto, and he got elected, then he has the mandate to go ahead and do it, without the need to
        Message 3 of 14 , Mar 26, 2013
          Wil,

          I would have thought that if it was part of his election manifesto, and he got elected, then he has the mandate to go ahead and do it, without the need to wait for the people to demand it.

          The same sex marriage proposal is in the process of becoming law here, despite the opposition of the reactionary right. At long last it looks as though homosexuals will become equal to heterosexuals under the law. And about time too!

          Jim
        • wsindarius
          Yes, and I wonder if the Crown will finally apologize to Oscar Wilde. Re: Obama, my list of disappointments is only outdone by my fear of the GOP. Wil ...
          Message 4 of 14 , Mar 26, 2013
            Yes, and I wonder if the Crown will finally apologize to Oscar Wilde.


            Re: Obama, my list of disappointments is only outdone by my fear of the GOP.

            Wil



            -----Original Message-----
            From: Jim <jjimstuart1@...>
            To: existlist <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Tue, Mar 26, 2013 8:22 am
            Subject: [existlist] Re: Guantanamo





            Wil,

            I would have thought that if it was part of his election manifesto, and he got elected, then he has the mandate to go ahead and do it, without the need to wait for the people to demand it.

            The same sex marriage proposal is in the process of becoming law here, despite the opposition of the reactionary right. At long last it looks as though homosexuals will become equal to heterosexuals under the law. And about time too!

            Jim









            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Jim
            Wil, It is similar here. The Labour Party generally disappoint when in office, but at least they are less bad than the Conservatives. We are not very good at
            Message 5 of 14 , Mar 26, 2013
              Wil,

              It is similar here. The Labour Party generally disappoint when in office, but at least they are less bad than the Conservatives.

              We are not very good at apologizing for past injustices and crimes. David Cameron had the opportunity recently to apologize for a massacre of Indians around one hundred years ago, but he failed to do so.

              Jim
            • Mary
              Jim, The Red Cross will routinely visit the fasting detainees this week and then report back to those who oversee the facility. Their report is not made
              Message 6 of 14 , Mar 26, 2013
                Jim,

                The Red Cross will routinely visit the fasting detainees this week and then report back to those who oversee the facility. Their report is not made public, which makes it less likely a majority of Americans will demand action. I also read a report which says our president authorized $50 to build a new facility on the current site.

                http://bigstory.ap.org/article/us-military-says-guantanamo-hunger-strike-edges

                Mary

                --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Jim" <jjimstuart1@...> wrote:
                >
                > Wil,
                >
                > I would have thought that if it was part of his election manifesto, and he got elected, then he has the mandate to go ahead and do it, without the need to wait for the people to demand it.
                >
                > The same sex marriage proposal is in the process of becoming law here, despite the opposition of the reactionary right. At long last it looks as though homosexuals will become equal to heterosexuals under the law. And about time too!
                >
                > Jim
                >
              • Mary
                That should be $50 million.
                Message 7 of 14 , Mar 26, 2013
                  That should be $50 million.

                  --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Jim,
                  >
                  > The Red Cross will routinely visit the fasting detainees this week and then report back to those who oversee the facility. Their report is not made public, which makes it less likely a majority of Americans will demand action. I also read a report which says our president authorized $50 to build a new facility on the current site.
                  >
                  > http://bigstory.ap.org/article/us-military-says-guantanamo-hunger-strike-edges
                • Mary
                  Further clarification. I couldn t find a source for the story about the $50M authorization but did find a NY Times article which indicates the Pentagon has
                  Message 8 of 14 , Mar 26, 2013
                    Further clarification. I couldn't find a source for the story about the $50M authorization but did find a NY Times article which indicates the Pentagon has only requested the funds.

                    http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/03/21/pentagon-wants-to-build-new-prison-at-guantanamo/?smid=tw-nytimesatwar&seid=auto

                    I'm totally opposed to the inhumane treatment of prisoners as well as opposed to detaining them without trial. It was Congress that included the continued operation of Gitmo in their latest defense bill which Obama signed. The public's will to control guns has gone virtually nowhere in Congress also. Congress maintains that U.S. citizens don't want to house detainees here and that repatriation abroad is dangerous if not impossible.

                    What are the dangers of the precedent for the expanded power of executive order if and when the GOP returns to power? Yet I also don't think the balance of power is the issue as much as it is that our representatives don't represent us. Many of them 'vote their consciences' which means whoever lobbies them hardest gets represented.

                    That politics and activism depend on money disheartens me immensely.

                    Mary

                    --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > That should be $50 million.
                    >
                    > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Jim,
                    > >
                    > > The Red Cross will routinely visit the fasting detainees this week and then report back to those who oversee the facility. Their report is not made public, which makes it less likely a majority of Americans will demand action. I also read a report which says our president authorized $50 to build a new facility on the current site.
                    > >
                    > > http://bigstory.ap.org/article/us-military-says-guantanamo-hunger-strike-edges
                    >
                  • wsindarius
                    Mary, Jim, There was a fellow on Hardball, I think it was, who was arguing in favor of Gitmo, saying that the prisoners there were treated much better than the
                    Message 9 of 14 , Mar 26, 2013
                      Mary, Jim,

                      There was a fellow on Hardball, I think it was, who was arguing in favor of Gitmo, saying that the prisoners there were treated much better than the US prison population at large who often suffer long stays in isolation, are poorly fed, abused, sexually attacked, etc. Recent stories in the NYT, Slate and Huff Post have borne out those facts. The US is a terribly harsh place, with an inhumane 'justice' system, much of it privatized for profit, and with the largest prison population anywhere else in the world or in history.



                      Wil



                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Mary <josephson45r@...>
                      To: existlist <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Tue, Mar 26, 2013 12:05 pm
                      Subject: [existlist] Re: Guantanamo





                      Further clarification. I couldn't find a source for the story about the $50M authorization but did find a NY Times article which indicates the Pentagon has only requested the funds.

                      http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/03/21/pentagon-wants-to-build-new-prison-at-guantanamo/?smid=tw-nytimesatwar&seid=auto

                      I'm totally opposed to the inhumane treatment of prisoners as well as opposed to detaining them without trial. It was Congress that included the continued operation of Gitmo in their latest defense bill which Obama signed. The public's will to control guns has gone virtually nowhere in Congress also. Congress maintains that U.S. citizens don't want to house detainees here and that repatriation abroad is dangerous if not impossible.

                      What are the dangers of the precedent for the expanded power of executive order if and when the GOP returns to power? Yet I also don't think the balance of power is the issue as much as it is that our representatives don't represent us. Many of them 'vote their consciences' which means whoever lobbies them hardest gets represented.

                      That politics and activism depend on money disheartens me immensely.

                      Mary

                      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > That should be $50 million.
                      >
                      > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Jim,
                      > >
                      > > The Red Cross will routinely visit the fasting detainees this week and then report back to those who oversee the facility. Their report is not made public, which makes it less likely a majority of Americans will demand action. I also read a report which says our president authorized $50 to build a new facility on the current site.
                      > >
                      > > http://bigstory.ap.org/article/us-military-says-guantanamo-hunger-strike-edges
                      >









                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Jim
                      Mary, Wil, This absurd situation where the prisoners at Guantanamo Bay are held outside any state, without being charged, without a trial, without any rights,
                      Message 10 of 14 , Mar 26, 2013
                        Mary, Wil,

                        This absurd situation where the prisoners at Guantanamo Bay are held outside any state, without being charged, without a trial, without any rights, seems to give empirical support to Giorgio Agamben's idea of the `Homo Sacer' or the `State of Exception' as described in those books of the same name.

                        I have read `Homo Sacer' but I have to admit I struggled to understand it. Agamben seemed to be saying that it was a logical entailment of a state with laws giving rights to its citizens that the law could only be validated if there were human's who had `bare life' as beings outside the law with no rights and no recognition.

                        Going back to Obama – I don't see why he cannot return the unfortunate individuals to their countries of origin – at least one is a British citizen. I would imagine that after eleven years of incarceration and possible torture, they would be broken men, incapable of taking up a life of terrorism.

                        Jim
                      • Peter ciccariello
                        Jim, I think that is the point. There is no logic, reason or rationale here... it is pure and unadulterated repressive absurdity, and for those inmates, what
                        Message 11 of 14 , Mar 26, 2013
                          Jim,

                          I think that is the point. There is no logic, reason or rationale here...
                          it is pure and unadulterated repressive absurdity, and for those inmates,
                          what is left to do but try to regain a form of dignity as per Fanon through
                          violence. In this case the only remaining target, oneself. I am so troubled
                          with this, and cannot help but ponder Kafka's "hunger artist"




                          - Peter




                          On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 3:43 PM, Jim <jjimstuart1@...> wrote:

                          > **
                          >
                          >
                          > Mary, Wil,
                          >
                          > This absurd situation where the prisoners at Guantanamo Bay are held
                          > outside any state, without being charged, without a trial, without any
                          > rights, seems to give empirical support to Giorgio Agamben's idea of the
                          > `Homo Sacer' or the `State of Exception' as described in those books of the
                          > same name.
                          >
                          > I have read `Homo Sacer' but I have to admit I struggled to understand it.
                          > Agamben seemed to be saying that it was a logical entailment of a state
                          > with laws giving rights to its citizens that the law could only be
                          > validated if there were human's who had `bare life' as beings outside the
                          > law with no rights and no recognition.
                          >
                          > Going back to Obama � I don't see why he cannot return the unfortunate
                          > individuals to their countries of origin � at least one is a British
                          > citizen. I would imagine that after eleven years of incarceration and
                          > possible torture, they would be broken men, incapable of taking up a life
                          > of terrorism.
                          >
                          > Jim
                          >
                          >
                          >



                          --
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                          https://twitter.com/ciccariello


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Mary
                          Not to mention MSNBC (owned by GE) also airs prison documentaries while being in the prison and security business. So not only does Foucault s business of
                          Message 12 of 14 , Mar 27, 2013
                            Not to mention MSNBC (owned by GE) also airs prison documentaries while being in the prison and security business. So not only does Foucault's business of creating delinquency come to mind, but apropos Peter's comment about Kafka's Starving Artist, one might also, not so cynically, envision a reality series which imitates that cruel voyeurism wherein viewers can vote for which inmate can go all the way and 'win' the competition of Best Starving Artist.

                            Mary

                            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote:
                            >
                            > Mary, Jim,
                            >
                            > There was a fellow on Hardball, I think it was, who was arguing in favor of Gitmo, saying that the prisoners there were treated much better than the US prison population at large who often suffer long stays in isolation, are poorly fed, abused, sexually attacked, etc. Recent stories in the NYT, Slate and Huff Post have borne out those facts. The US is a terribly harsh place, with an inhumane 'justice' system, much of it privatized for profit, and with the largest prison population anywhere else in the world or in history.
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