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Re: [Wisdom-l] Questions -- Re: Bhanu: Kishore Mahbubani ?

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  • Bhanu Padmo
    Hi Pat!   (Sino-American Relativism : Issues of National Sovereignty and Human Rights)   Let us start with the contentious issue of the prospect of Chinese
    Message 1 of 5 , Feb 24, 2013
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      Hi
      Pat!

       

      (Sino-American
      Relativism : Issues of National Sovereignty and Human Rights)

       

      Let
      us start with the contentious issue of the prospect of Chinese march towards
      the strongest economy.

       

      *National
      economy* without the underlying commensurate *general morality* proves, sooner
      or later, to be brute. *General morality* needs to be transformed into *national
      morality* through a consistent *polity*. *Political morality* is the matter of
      profound reasoning and is materialized through an appropriate *political model*.


       

      The
      primal question that a *political model* answers (and implements such an answer)
      is that about the true nature of *national sovereignty* and the formal method
      of creating/ assembling it. The *national constitution* ought to incorporate
      the answer (statement about nature of national sovereignty) and the model.

       

      The
      generic name of this model is *democracy*. The actual nature of identified
      national sovereignty is the index of the *native democracy*.

       

      Thus
      the analysis of consequences of *national economy* ought to take into
      consideration respective *political economy* that delineates the nature of
      identified national sovereignty, the nature of constitution with respect to
      incorporation of national sovereignty, the nature of political model thereof and
      the nature of political control over national economy.

       

      Be
      it China or US, the international impact of respective national economy will
      finally be the function of locally conceived and implemented general morality,
      polity, reasonability of political model, nature of national sovereignty and
      the methodology of assembling national sovereignty. The nodal point in this
      sequence is the nature of identified national sovereignty.

       

      Assuming
      that both these nations are not going to change much in near future, we may
      pull out our gamma counter to measure the strength of respective radiations in
      terms of rectitude (democratic values) of respective identified national
      sovereignty. The gamma counter (a contrivance for measuring number of gamma
      rays emanating out of a neighboring radioactive substance) is a metaphor for
      analysis (analytic power) of a nation*s physical international effects.

       

      Isn*t
      it very difficult to assess democratic values of a nation from its
      international physical relationships?

       

      It
      is not so difficult if we can appreciate *crime/ immorality/ cruelty statistics*
      as the *cardinal/ absolute index of organized status (community, nation,
      religion etc)*.

       

      While
      measuring democratic values of a national model, we have to resolve its aura
      into two components viz. *sub-frontier aura* (intra-national effect) and *trans-frontier
      aura* (international effect). Accordingly, our survey of crime/ immorality/
      cruelty would also have two components : *sub-frontier survey of national
      offenses* and *trans-frontier survey of national offences*.

       

      *Sub-frontier
      offenses* has two sub-divisions : *public offenses* and *administrative
      punishments*.

       

      Punishment
      is here seen as a form of catalytic cruelty that would deter multi-fold conflagration
      of cruelty in variant forms. Public offense as malevolent cruelty is a *positive
      offense*. Administrative punishment as benevolent cruelty is a *negative
      offense*. To be on the safer side, both *public positive offense* and *administrative
      negative offense* may be seen as human rights violations, real or virtual.

       

      Naturally,
      we are now reminded of the notions of *public negative offense* (public
      benevolent cruelty) and *administrative positive offense* (administrative malevolent
      cruelty) as well.

       

      To
      pass over the difficulty of discerning negative offense from positive offense in
      both public and administrative domains, we may think of *integral sub-frontier
      cruelty statistics*. *Integral sub-frontier cruelty* will thus be the sum of
      the contents of all four sections viz. positive and negative offenses of both
      public and administrative domains.

       

      Integral
      sub-frontier cruelty statistics may be taken at least as the gross *index of (working
      of) democratic values* within the frontiers of the nation. To be on the safer
      side, let this statistics depict the *integral human rights violation* of the
      nation.

       

      Would
      you like to assess American and Chinese records of *integral sub-frontier
      cruelty* or *integral sub-frontier human rights violation*?

       

      Shouldn*t
      we appreciate the fact that China has managed to lower the level of public
      crime/ offense almost to the ground, leaving not much option before us to be influenced
      by rumors (arising out of intentional diplomatic vitiations of isolated/
      selected cases)?

       

      Come
      to the other division of crime survey : statistics of trans-frontier crime/
      immorality/ cruelty. xxx

       

      Effects
      of induced wars and imposed international policies originating from American
      premises need to be inspected and assessed thoroughly to come to the unexpected
      final count. Obvious answers to few discreet questions do outline the
      trans-frontier American image. Is America bothered about even simple survival
      of third-world countries if they don*t opt to be subjugated by her most
      abjectly? Does America appreciate unconditional benevolence? Does America
      tolerate other*s sense of independence and contentment?

       

      Why
      have we to seem so mean and make such utterances against America when American *general
      morality* is so high? Undeniable is the radical and creative outlook of
      Americans. Unparalleled is their intellectual contribution to mankind. Insuperability
      of their wisdom has been quite appropriately translated into insuperability of
      their physical might. Why have we to seem so mean and make such utterances
      against America then?

       

      The
      answer to this queer question is connoted by these counter questions : Why has
      then the issue of China cropped up so obtrusively? Why did the concern of relative
      deceleration of US/ West (with respect to unstoppably accelerating China)
      become so imminent so soon? How could a fallen and ailing China come round to
      emulate US/ West in just six decades of time?

       

      All
      these connote the tipping point abut descent and ascent of nations. We have
      indicated earlier at the very beginning of this discussion the incidence of
      this tipping point in the nature of identified national sovereignty and the
      commensurate political model and the ensuing degree of native democracy. That
      is it.

       

      Extant
      great *general morality-creativity* of US/ West would have to be transformed
      into respective *national-political morality-creativity* through a consistent *polity*
      equipped with an appropriate *political model*. Without a womb, the body would
      have to be infertile. American general morality lacks the womb to generate
      great (benign) global consequences. What is being projected currently as
      American/ Western global impact may not be as great, as benign.

      The
      womb is the commensurate *political model* that would uphold great democratic
      values through better appreciation of national sovereignty. What is being
      projected currently as American/ Western democratic values may not be as great.

       

      So
      everything boils down to the definition of national sovereignty. This
      definition could generate the absolute/ ideal polity, the absolute/ ideal
      democracy.

       

      American
      political system lacks the requisite concern about that definition and model.
      That is how American *national-political morality* stands contrary to American *general
      morality*. That is how American image is so ambiguous, so anomalous. That is
      how American government and American people are two separate/ different/
      incommensurable entities. America seem to be suffering from an excruciating *political
      dualism*.

       

      If
      not solved in time, this political dualism will make extant American glory
      fade. It will become a burden to itself and to the world. It will bring about the
      great decline of the West. We are talking about the millenary events.

       

      The
      decline is to be understood in dynamic/ relative view. The relative decline
      with respect to China is the context. There are already indications of
      irreversible relative deceleration of America/ West or irreversible relative
      acceleration of China.

       

      The
      *theory of universal national sovereignty and absolute polity* would apply to
      all countries, big or small, old or new, US or China or India, alike. The
      relative progression of China and the relative recession of US could be
      explained by the same theory. If US is losing its hold on own prospects by way
      of being a mere bystander to own worsening political dualism, then China would
      have to be deemed to be tightening its hold on own prospects by way of solving
      own political dualism discreetly and progressively.

       

      If
      we take *political model* and the ensuing *national-political morality-creativity*
      as the cause and the *general morality-creativity* as the consequence, the
      present scenario for US and China may be delineated as follows : US may be
      deemed to have currently a higher general morality-creativity and lesser
      national-political morality-creativity when China may be deemed to have currently
      a lower general morality-creativity and higher national-political morality-creativity.
      Since, national-political morality-creativity is *causal* with respect to
      shaping of general morality-creativity, edging of China may be ascribed to the
      higher degree of the causal agency (higher political morality) it has managed
      to procure and wield.

       

      Reckoning
      the *political morality* of a country isn*t easy. A better cultural legacy or a
      persuasive propaganda may cause the current political morality seem higher. US
      enjoys such a position and has managed to be popular as a high democracy. This
      assumption has made US political system seem colorful and benign. To know
      whether it is truly so, we shall have to put her to the critical test. The critical
      test is the nature of her conviction about *national sovereignty*.

       

      Is
      the plenary body of best US citizens universally and eternally empowered by the
      US Constitution to integratedly rule that country at every level by way of
      nationalizing an evolving wisdom and jurisprudence (to be internationalized by
      global consensus later)? Has US contemplated over such a possibility? Has US
      taken even the first step towards organizing own citizens on the basis of dream
      and emotion into a country-wide and plenary civil hierarchy?

       

      Has
      China contemplated over such a possibility in own case and acted upon such
      contemplations?

       

      Benignancy
      or malignancy of a powerful national economy will be the function of the degree
      of conformity to this seminal political/ constitutional morality. Baseless
      apprehension about Sino-American relativism doesn*t matter. Primacy of
      definition of national sovereignty and the ensuing theory of absolute polity is
      the guiding light.

       

      Unstoppability
      of march to power will be accompanied by steep moral ascension. We need not be
      afraid of the reasonable future.




      (Bhanu Padmo)

      http://www.bhanupadmo.com


      You
      may reply this thread upon http://in.groups.yahoo.com/group/greenlogic/%c2%a0
      as well

      or consign a copy to greenlogic@...   for extended discussions.



      --- On Fri, 2/22/13, Pat Louise Davies <pld@...> wrote:

      From: Pat Louise Davies <pld@...>
      Subject: [Wisdom-l] Questions -- Re: Bhanu: Kishore Mahbubani ?
      To: esotericismspirituality@yahoogroups.com, greenlogic@yahoogroups.com, TheRampaPath@yahoogroups.com, seerseeker@yahoogroups.com, existlist@yahoogroups.com, TheBecoming@yahoogroups.com, Wisdom-l@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Friday, February 22, 2013, 8:34 PM
















       









      


       

      Bhanu,
       
      Thanks much for your comments about
      Kishore Mahbubani.  I will be chewing on them.  Meanwhile, I have
      a few immediate questions below, and a Kishorean quote...
       

      re:
      BP
      <<< The East-to-West flight of
      global socio-cultural center is about to be reversed in near future. Kishore*s
      words seems to be prophetic up to this point. But what he has to see further is
      that the West-to-East flight of global socio-cultural polarity would be
      consummated in China. And the credit for this historic phenomenon would go
      exclusively to China.
       
      PL >  Qs:
       
      "Credit" by whom?  -- What do you mean by "credit for
      this historic phenomenon would go exclusively to China"? 

       
      In his talk Kishore conveyed his
      perception that China will probably become the most powerful economy
      within approx the next decade.  He also stated, as he also does in his
      Feb 2013 book (The Great Convergence), that China will eventually become more democratic.  At his
      Cornell talk, Kishore said that China has learned from Russia's bad experience
      of shifting towards
      democracy too quickly;--- that economic
      depression would result, as it did with Russia.  He believes that there is
      currently a very gradual transition towards democracy underway in China.  
      He gave the example of travel by Chinese citizens out and
      then back into China, for multi-year
      durations, as a example of this transition. 

       
      Do you agree with any of
      this?
       
      I realize that those of us who personally
      know victims of Chinese oppression/violence find the prospect of a more powerful China challenging; 
      including the challenge of having any faith that Chinese political evoluton
      could be positive re: human rights;  That said, here is a quote from
      Convergence:
       
      Nevertheless, a more democratic China will
      emerge.  The ultimate political destination for China is not in
      doubt.  It will be an unavoidable choice, especially once China has
      developed the largest middle class in the world.  The only question is
      whether America or any other power will ...
      interfer(e) with China's domestic processes.  The temptation to interfere is
      strong in America. 
      A wiser course is to
      allow China to
      develop at its own pace.  By not
      crossing the red line in this area, America would also help to preserve geopolitical stability.

             
                     
                     
                     
                     
                  Convergence,
      K-Mahbubani, p.157.
       
      Any thoughts?
       
      re:
      BP>>> That is not all. The saddest part of the
      futuristic story is that the Titanic will sink prior to this stretch of
      evolution of history, if an averting magic doesn*t occur. The doomed ship is
      India, the second Titanic. And this Titanic, even as she arrives at the bottom
      of the ocean, will still have in her coffers the heart (the metaphor to mean
      genes) of the planet.
       
      PL > Qs
      What is
      the first "Titanic"?......USA?  And could you say more about what you
      mean by the 2nd Titanic (India) "will still have in her coffers the heart (the metaphor to mean
      genes) of the planet"?
      I think I know
      what you mean, but not sure....
       
       
      In general, what
      do you imagine the world, with China as the most powerful economy,
      will be
      like?
       
       
      Gratitude, Bhanu.
       
      Namaste,
      Pat  : )
      ___________________________________________
      __________________________________________________
       
                   
                               
      May our efforts benefit

                               
      all beings and the earth
               

      ----- Original Message -----
      From:
      Bhanu
      Padmo
      To: Wisdom-l@yahoogroups.com ; TheBecoming@yahoogroups.com ; existlist@yahoogroups.com ; seerseeker@yahoogroups.com ; TheRampaPath@yahoogroups.com ;
      greenlogic@yahoogroups.com ; esotericismspirituality@yahoogroups.com

      Sent: 2013-02-22 07:22
      Subject: Re: [Wisdom-l] Bhanu: Kishore
      Mahbubani ?

       






      My Dear Pat, Namaste.
       
      (The Story of Second Titanic)
       
      I am reminded of a joke
      when one talks about Kishore Mahbubani*s recognition of western worth in
      such terms as *Seven Pillars of Western Wisdom* (viz. Free-market
      economics, Science and Technology, Meritocracy, Pragmatism, Culture of
      Peace, Rule of Law, Education).
       
      The joke is this. You
      (a woman) meet somebody (another woman) for whom you develop soon a
      liking for reasons unknown to you and inquire of her some personal
      details. Your fondness for this person ascends as you listen to
      attractive self-descriptions whose plausibility you have already
      assumed. How nice it was to know that this potential friend was an
      artist, a singer, an engineer, a social worker and so on! However, she
      would like to whisper the last point about her into your ear, feeling a
      bit coy over the fact that you wouldn*t probably like the last
      characteristic. And she finally tells you that she is in the grip of the
      habit of lying!!
       
      Naturally, you would
      now be ashamed of your altruism of believing the woman as this moral
      retrogression was enough to annul all of her purported positive
      features. The last personal feature whispered into your ears is indeed
      the *absolute retrograde*.
       
      Similarly, what if one
      or more Kishorean Pillars of purported Western Wisdom happens to be a
      socio-culture retrograde? An absolute socio-cultural
      retrograde?
       
      If you take a close
      look at these seven pillars of wisdom, you find each one of them to be a
      composite agent of civilization, not a singular/ elementary one. These
      composites could be riddled with deficiency and redundancy.
       
      For example, free
      market economics can not be deemed to be benign at all if it is to
      implicitly acknowledge the in-built vice of encouraging unlimited
      superfluity of choices about the most redundant material requirement -
      at the cost of longevity of our planet (that is being deemed to cradle
      the peak evolution of universe).
       
      Science and technology
      isn*t a lay option available unconditionally without a socio-cultural
      prelude and moral-instinctive pre-condition.
       
      An inadequately
      conceived meritocracy runs the risk of being overwhelmed by snobbish
      vagary of education.
       
      Pragmatism contaminated
      with conceit could, if not rectified in time, turn into virtual
      cannibalism at some stage.
       
      Rule of law could turn
      into a piece of deceptive rhetoric if promulgation of law as an integral
      part of national sovereignty was to be devoid of the concern of
      nationalizing wisdom and jurisprudence.
       
      Culture of peace could
      be a redundantly altruist notion if it doesn*t consider any objective
      higher than mere peaceful coexistence.
       
      These seven composite
      agents of civilization need to be resolved into their elementary
      components firstly and then, the retrograde components must be isolated
      and quarantined as germs of apocalypse. The identities of individual
      agents need to be expressed as permutation-combination of their elements
      and any agent with in-built retrograde element is to be stricken off.
       
       
      How many of these
      purported pillars of western wisdom will survive this ingenious
      intellectual operation to assign a semblance of dignity and ascribe a
      semblance of superiority to US/ West? In other words, Kishore needs to
      brace up to clear own vision. Because this intellectual exercise will
      also clarify if Kishore-perceived American-Western wisdom and image is
      indeed positive or is mostly mistaken. He could have mistaken imposed
      dignity and brute superiority for proof of wisdom abstract.
       
      Kishore*s 
      perception of the East is also equally indiscriminate and
      lopsided. Take the two prominent corners of Eastern Hemisphere viz.
      China and India. He appears to have reckoned both equal with respect to
      respective march to modernity, weltanschauug (worldview), actual
      self-worth, implementation of personal freedom, capacity to embrace the
      West and multitude of aspects of civilization Kishore Mahbubani so
      ornately spells. He couldn*t be more wrong.
       
      How can he be expected
      to be even marginally right in this comparative study if he doesn*t have
      and doesn*t look for the cardinal/ absolute index of society/ culture/
      civilization? The easiest and the best one probably is the index of
      crime/ immorality. Has he ever put India on crime/ immorality scale? Has
      he ever witnessed/ imagined the ghastliness of the actual Indian social
      scenario? Or, has he again made the mistake of seeing through the warped
      American eye that may discount million socio-cultural deaths of another
      country (third-word country) to capitalize on few conducive/ selected
      politicizable cases of purported/ fictitious *human right violation*
      underscoring a lopsided sense of morality and justice?
       
      Kishore commits the
      double-fault of overestimating classical West/ US and Modern India, the
      two chameleons. This makes his international perspective deficient.

       
      We do appreciate his
      surmises about the foreseeable fall of American pseudo-modernism and
      rise of Asia. But the story that will unfold to vindicate Kishore*s
      surmises is different from the details he conjures up. It is the story
      of the great triangle whose vertices represent centers of global
      civilization of past, present and future.
       
      The past had witnessed
      the greatest socio-cultural polarization in the Eastern Hemisphere, in
      India. The present age is still witnessing the highest global
      polarization in the Western Hemisphere, in US/ West. This flight of
      global center from East to West depicted the rise of the West and the
      decline of the East.
       
      The East-to-West flight
      of global socio-cultural center is about to be reversed in near future.
      Kishore*s words seems to be prophetic up to this point. But what he has
      to see further is that the West-to-East flight of global socio-cultural
      polarity would be consummated in China. And the credit for this historic
      phenomenon would go exclusively to China.
       
      That is not all. The
      saddest part of the futuristic story is that the Titanic will sink prior
      to this stretch of evolution of history, if an averting magic doesn*t
      occur. The doomed ship is India, the second Titanic. And this Titanic,
      even as she arrives at the bottom of the ocean, will still have in her
      coffers the heart (the metaphor to mean genes) of the planet.

       
      How would India be so
      doomed? - That is because of its neo-Indian navigators who still think
      the clean-and-crystalline heaven (iceberg) visible ahead is the
      destination.  
       
      How would China be
      rewarded with such a global glory? - That is because she is the heir
      apparent to pan-Indian socio-cultural legacy, erstwhile global essence,
      because she is thus the inheritor of feline human genes. To realize
      this, you have to look into the transcendental theory of evolution that
      puts civilization as function of national genes and that puts national
      genes as function of metaphysical movements. The time-bomb of Buddhist
      metaphysics have been ticking to conflagrate as the winner genes later
      in China.
       
      What is that actual
      tipping national characteristic that would give China an edge over US/
      West. It is progressive incorporation of higher democracy into national
      constitution. Protraction of disproportionate/ unlimited econo-social
      security is taking epidemic form to gnaw away Western Democracy, the
      iceberg that India wishes to harvest a destination from.
       
      Is Chinese success
      really so succinct? - No. It isn*t. It is about to be on the crossroad
      where it will meet the fatal contingency of choosing between the Kishore
      Mahbubani-spelt sevel pillars of western wisdom with in-built
      retrogrades and civil democracy projected by the theory of absolute
      polity.

      (Bhanu Padmo)
      http://www.bhanupadmo.com

      You may reply this thread upon http://in.groups.yahoo.com/group/greenlogic/%c2%a0
      as well
      or consign a copy to greenlogic@...  
      for extended discussions.

      --- On Mon, 2/18/13, Pat Louise Davies
      <pld@...> wrote:


      From:
      Pat Louise Davies <pld@...>
      Subject: [Wisdom-l]
      Bhanu: Kishore Mahbubani ?
      To: Wisdom-l@yahoogroups.com
      Date:
      Monday, February 18, 2013, 7:01 PM



       


       
       
      Hello Bhanu & Friends,
       
      Since you and others have some interest in
      political philosopy, Bhanu, I am wondering if you are familiar with
      the writings of Kishore Mahbubani?  If so, what are your opinions
      of his ideas?  As you may know, he was the President of the UN
      Security Council 2001-02, and UN Ambassador from Singapore. 
      He was born of Indian parents in an
      impoverished area of Singapore 64 yrs ago.
       
      I heard Kishore speak recently @ Cornell and
      found his ideas about the need for world collaboration interesting; I
      am currently reading 4 of his books.  In his view, the USA's
      tendency to stay stuck focusing on world
      leadership instead of supporting world organizations and other means
      of world collaboration is very problematic & unfortunate for the
      USA now, and going forward.
       
      Kishore's message at the outset of his
      Cornell talk was that there is much pessimism in the West,
      including Europe, whereas many Eastern countries are enjoying much
      rapid successful economic/cultural development as a result of being
      influenced by " The 7 Pillars of Western Wisdom" (his term which
      includes free market, rule of law, etc...) and are optimistic; 
      In his view, the West is currenty moving away from the 7
      pillars. 
       
      Many points of his Cornell talk are laid out in
      his most recent book published in Feb/13.  He discussed
      the 7 pillars in his 2008 book: The
      New Asian Hemisphere.
       
      Your thoughts?
       
      Thanks ~ Namaste,  Pat Louise
       
      ____________________________________________________________________
               
                               
                  May our
      efforts benefit

                                
                 all beings and the
      earth.         

























      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Bhanu Padmo
      Pat, (A delayed reply. And I will not be available at my desk for a week or two now for further replies. Only after I return. Thanks for info in the
      Message 2 of 5 , Feb 28, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        Pat,
        (A delayed reply. And I will not be available at my desk for a week or two now for further replies. Only after I return. Thanks for info in the attachment.)
        (A Burlesque
        Question)

         

        The
        grotesque daily criminal statistics of India is the answer to your burlesque
        question. If India exceeds US in criminality by, say, hundredfold and China by,
        say, two-hundredfold, won*t that be sufficient in your eyes to qualify India
        for entry into hell !!

         

        When
        we are talking about millenary trend and consequence, doesn*t such a current
        predicament mean premature apocalypse for India?

         

        Think
        of the fortunate deserters of Titanic surviving aboard sea-borne lifeboats and
        witnessing the widening crack in the middle of the ship.  Unless one wants to have the ship sunk, will he/
        she ask this comical question then : Why do you think Titanic is doomed to
        sink?

         

        Pat!
        You may have to update yourself (have Kisore Mahbubani updated as well) on
        worsening ghastliness of public morality in India and extrapolate it to locate
        the approaching Indian apocalypse on time-scale.

         

        Of
        course, for that you have to know the relationship between overall national identity
        and general morality.

         

        (People*s
        Representatives : Disparate Managers and Inbuilt Sovereigns)

        Think
        of a family. It is a family because of the familial hierarchy which is based on
        heredity. Familial hierarchy portends a hereditary/ genetic gradient.

         

        Analogous
        to family is nation which is also bound tightly by a hierarchy. This national
        hierarchy is primarily a psycho-intellectual hierarchy portending an emotive
        gradient. This gradient points upwards to social sovereignty ending at national
        sovereignty.

         

        The
        causal characteristic of this psycho-intellectual gradient is intuitive prowess
        (dream) and emotive sophistication (intellect). So, the fountainhead of a
        nation is the stratum of citizens with supreme (critically-beneficent) minds.

         

        Intelligence
        needs to be defined to make these benedictory minds be indentified as the most
        intelligent.

         

        The
        analogy between nation and family may be recalled to reckon the supreme minds
        as the parents of nation and to detect the nation-wide gradient of dream
        (intuitive prowess) and intellect (emotive sophistication). Thus a nation would
        be complete as a family of intelligent dreamers.

         

        That
        is the definition of a civilized nation whose constitution would at once
        recognize protection and empowerment of the plenary (country-wide) body of
        supreme citizens as the seed of democracy. Thus the constitution of a civilized
        nation would launch a sovereign citizen*s party to initiate democracy.
        Democracy is non-existent till it happens.

         

        Has
        it happened in US? Isn*t it that US Constitution has managed to define for it
        and endow it with only a caretaker/ managerial government (not a sovereign
        government)? Aren*t, in the light of this argument, the elected People*s
        Representatives in US are mere disparate managers (not inbuilt sovereigns, not integrated
        sovereigns, not the fountainhead of national sovereignty)?

         

        (Rooted Power and
        Booty Power)

         

        Haven*t
        we been talking about long-term (say, millenary) trend and consequence of a
        nation? Irreversible morality-rooted power is different from reversible booty
        power. The latter, like its underlying immorality, is transient. History is the
        witness to both types of power. We have to discern one form the other.

         



        (Bhanu Padmo)

        http://www.bhanupadmo.com


        You
        may reply this thread upon http://in.groups.yahoo.com/group/greenlogic/%c2%a0
        as well

        or consign a copy to greenlogic@...   for extended discussions.



        --- On Mon, 2/25/13, Pat Louise Davies <pld@...> wrote:

        From: Pat Louise Davies <pld@...>
        Subject: Re: [Wisdom-l] Questions -- Re: Bhanu: Kishore Mahbubani ?
        To: Wisdom-l@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Monday, February 25, 2013, 7:17 PM
















         









        


         

         
        Hi Bhanu, 
         
         
         
        Ty for you reply;   I have three questions
        below:
         
         
         
        1.   Bhanu, why do you think India is doomed to
        "sink"?    I will keep her in my meditations and
        prayers.
         
         
         
        2.  What do you mean by your sentence below (in
        blue)?  Could you clarify what you mean by "organizing
        on the basis of dream and emotion" into a "country wide and plenary civil
        hierarchy?"  ...maybe giving a simple example on a topic (?) -- TY
        ~
         
         
        BP<<< 
        Has US taken even the
        first step towards organizing own citizens on the basis of dream and emotion
        into a country-wide and plenary civil
        hierarchy?
         
         
        3.  I also have a question about this:
         
        BP <<< Unstoppability of march to power will be
        accompanied by steep moral ascension.    We need not be afraid of the reasonable
        future.
         
        So, why do you think "steep moral ascension" will
        accompany "march to power", Bhanu?  Historically in the human race, immoral aggression seems to have more
        typically accompanied marches to power.
         
         
        Gratefulness ~
        Namaste,
        P    


         
        .         


        ----- Original Message -----

        From: Bhanu Padmo
        To: esotericismspirituality@yahoogroups.com ;
        greenlogic@yahoogroups.com ; TheRampaPath@yahoogroups.com ; seerseeker@yahoogroups.com ; existlist@yahoogroups.com ; TheBecoming@yahoogroups.com ; Wisdom-l@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: 2013-02-24
        13:45
        Subject: Re: [Wisdom-l]
        Questions -- Re: Bhanu: Kishore Mahbubani ?

         






        Hi Pat!
         
        (Sino-American
        Relativism : Issues of National Sovereignty and Human
        Rights)
         
        Let us start with the
        contentious issue of the prospect of Chinese march towards the strongest
        economy.
         
        *National economy*
        without the underlying commensurate *general morality* proves, sooner or
        later, to be brute. *General morality* needs to be transformed into
        *national morality* through a consistent *polity*. *Political morality*
        is the matter of profound reasoning and is materialized through an
        appropriate *political model*.
         
        The primal question
        that a *political model* answers (and implements such an answer) is that
        about the true nature of *national sovereignty* and the formal method of
        creating/ assembling it. The *national constitution* ought to
        incorporate the answer (statement about nature of national sovereignty)
        and the model.
         
        The generic name of
        this model is *democracy*. The actual nature of identified national
        sovereignty is the index of the *native democracy*.
         
        Thus the analysis of
        consequences of *national economy* ought to take into consideration
        respective *political economy* that delineates the nature of identified
        national sovereignty, the nature of constitution with respect to
        incorporation of national sovereignty, the nature of political model
        thereof and the nature of political control over national economy.

         
        Be it China or US, the
        international impact of respective national economy will finally be the
        function of locally conceived and implemented general morality, polity,
        reasonability of political model, nature of national sovereignty and the
        methodology of assembling national sovereignty. The nodal point in this
        sequence is the nature of identified national sovereignty.
         
        Assuming that both
        these nations are not going to change much in near future, we may pull
        out our gamma counter to measure the strength of respective radiations
        in terms of rectitude (democratic values) of respective identified
        national sovereignty. The gamma counter (a contrivance for measuring
        number of gamma rays emanating out of a neighboring radioactive
        substance) is a metaphor for analysis (analytic power) of a nation*s
        physical international effects.
         
        Isn*t it very difficult
        to assess democratic values of a nation from its international physical
        relationships?
         
        It is not so difficult
        if we can appreciate *crime/ immorality/ cruelty statistics* as the
        *cardinal/ absolute index of organized status (community, nation,
        religion etc)*.
         
        While measuring
        democratic values of a national model, we have to resolve its aura into
        two components viz. *sub-frontier aura* (intra-national effect) and
        *trans-frontier aura* (international effect). Accordingly, our survey of
        crime/ immorality/ cruelty would also have two components :
        *sub-frontier survey of national offenses* and *trans-frontier survey of
        national offences*.
         
        *Sub-frontier offenses*
        has two sub-divisions : *public offenses* and *administrative
        punishments*.
         
        Punishment is here seen
        as a form of catalytic cruelty that would deter multi-fold conflagration
        of cruelty in variant forms. Public offense as malevolent cruelty is a
        *positive offense*. Administrative punishment as benevolent cruelty is a
        *negative offense*. To be on the safer side, both *public positive
        offense* and *administrative negative offense* may be seen as human
        rights violations, real or virtual.
         
        Naturally, we are now
        reminded of the notions of *public negative offense* (public benevolent
        cruelty) and *administrative positive offense* (administrative
        malevolent cruelty) as well.
         
        To pass over the
        difficulty of discerning negative offense from positive offense in both
        public and administrative domains, we may think of *integral
        sub-frontier cruelty statistics*. *Integral sub-frontier cruelty* will
        thus be the sum of the contents of all four sections viz. positive and
        negative offenses of both public and administrative domains.
         
        Integral sub-frontier
        cruelty statistics may be taken at least as the gross *index of (working
        of) democratic values* within the frontiers of the nation. To be on the
        safer side, let this statistics depict the *integral human rights
        violation* of the nation.
         
        Would you like to
        assess American and Chinese records of *integral sub-frontier cruelty*
        or *integral sub-frontier human rights violation*?
         
        Shouldn*t we appreciate
        the fact that China has managed to lower the level of public crime/
        offense almost to the ground, leaving not much option before us to be
        influenced by rumors (arising out of intentional diplomatic vitiations
        of isolated/ selected cases)?
         
        Come to the other
        division of crime survey : statistics of trans-frontier crime/
        immorality/ cruelty. xxx
         
        Effects of induced wars
        and imposed international policies originating from American premises
        need to be inspected and assessed thoroughly to come to the unexpected
        final count. Obvious answers to few discreet questions do outline the
        trans-frontier American image. Is America bothered about even simple
        survival of third-world countries if they don*t opt to be subjugated by
        her most abjectly? Does America appreciate unconditional benevolence?
        Does America tolerate other*s sense of independence and
        contentment?
         
        Why have we to seem so
        mean and make such utterances against America when American *general
        morality* is so high? Undeniable is the radical and creative outlook of
        Americans. Unparalleled is their intellectual contribution to mankind.
        Insuperability of their wisdom has been quite appropriately translated
        into insuperability of their physical might. Why have we to seem so mean
        and make such utterances against America then?
         
        The answer to this
        queer question is connoted by these counter questions : Why has then the
        issue of China cropped up so obtrusively? Why did the concern of
        relative deceleration of US/ West (with respect to unstoppably
        accelerating China) become so imminent so soon? How could a fallen and
        ailing China come round to emulate US/ West in just six decades of
        time?
         
        All these connote the
        tipping point abut descent and ascent of nations. We have indicated
        earlier at the very beginning of this discussion the incidence of this
        tipping point in the nature of identified national sovereignty and the
        commensurate political model and the ensuing degree of native democracy.
        That is it.
         
        Extant great *general
        morality-creativity* of US/ West would have to be transformed into
        respective *national-political morality-creativity* through a consistent
        *polity* equipped with an appropriate *political model*. Without a womb,
        the body would have to be infertile. American general morality lacks the
        womb to generate great (benign) global consequences. What is being
        projected currently as American/ Western global impact may not be as
        great, as benign.
        The womb is the
        commensurate *political model* that would uphold great democratic values
        through better appreciation of national sovereignty. What is being
        projected currently as American/ Western democratic values may not be as
        great.
         
        So everything boils
        down to the definition of national sovereignty. This definition could
        generate the absolute/ ideal polity, the absolute/ ideal democracy.

         
        American political
        system lacks the requisite concern about that definition and model. That
        is how American *national-political morality* stands contrary to
        American *general morality*. That is how American image is so ambiguous,
        so anomalous. That is how American government and American people are
        two separate/ different/ incommensurable entities. America seem to be
        suffering from an excruciating *political dualism*.
         
        If not solved in time,
        this political dualism will make extant American glory fade. It will
        become a burden to itself and to the world. It will bring about the
        great decline of the West. We are talking about the millenary events.

         
        The decline is to be
        understood in dynamic/ relative view. The relative decline with respect
        to China is the context. There are already indications of irreversible
        relative deceleration of America/ West or irreversible relative
        acceleration of China.
         
        The *theory of
        universal national sovereignty and absolute polity* would apply to all
        countries, big or small, old or new, US or China or India, alike. The
        relative progression of China and the relative recession of US could be
        explained by the same theory. If US is losing its hold on own prospects
        by way of being a mere bystander to own worsening political dualism,
        then China would have to be deemed to be tightening its hold on own
        prospects by way of solving own political dualism discreetly and
        progressively.
         
        If we take *political
        model* and the ensuing *national-political morality-creativity* as the
        cause and the *general morality-creativity* as the consequence, the
        present scenario for US and China may be delineated as follows : US may
        be deemed to have currently a higher general morality-creativity and
        lesser national-political morality-creativity when China may be deemed
        to have currently a lower general morality-creativity and higher
        national-political morality-creativity. Since, national-political
        morality-creativity is *causal* with respect to shaping of general
        morality-creativity, edging of China may be ascribed to the higher
        degree of the causal agency (higher political morality) it has managed
        to procure and wield.
         
        Reckoning the
        *political morality* of a country isn*t easy. A better cultural legacy
        or a persuasive propaganda may cause the current political morality seem
        higher. US enjoys such a position and has managed to be popular as a
        high democracy. This assumption has made US political system seem
        colorful and benign. To know whether it is truly so, we shall have to
        put her to the critical test. The critical test is the nature of her
        conviction about *national sovereignty*.
         
        Is the plenary body of
        best US citizens universally and eternally empowered by the US
        Constitution to integratedly rule that country at every level by way of
        nationalizing an evolving wisdom and jurisprudence (to be
        internationalized by global consensus later)? Has US contemplated over
        such a possibility? Has US taken even the first step towards organizing
        own citizens on the basis of dream and emotion into a country-wide and
        plenary civil hierarchy?
         
        Has China contemplated
        over such a possibility in own case and acted upon such
        contemplations?
         
        Benignancy or
        malignancy of a powerful national economy will be the function of the
        degree of conformity to this seminal political/ constitutional morality.
        Baseless apprehension about Sino-American relativism doesn*t matter.
        Primacy of definition of national sovereignty and the ensuing theory of
        absolute polity is the guiding light.
         
        Unstoppability of march
        to power will be accompanied by steep moral ascension. We need not be
        afraid of the reasonable future.

        (Bhanu Padmo)
        http://www.bhanupadmo.com

        You may reply this thread upon http://in.groups.yahoo.com/group/greenlogic/%c2%a0
        as well
        or consign a copy to greenlogic@...  
        for extended discussions.

        --- On Fri, 2/22/13, Pat Louise Davies
        <pld@...> wrote:


        From:
        Pat Louise Davies <pld@...>
        Subject: [Wisdom-l]
        Questions -- Re: Bhanu: Kishore Mahbubani ?
        To:
        esotericismspirituality@yahoogroups.com, greenlogic@yahoogroups.com,
        TheRampaPath@yahoogroups.com, seerseeker@yahoogroups.com,
        existlist@yahoogroups.com, TheBecoming@yahoogroups.com,
        Wisdom-l@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Friday, February 22, 2013, 8:34
        PM



         

        
         

        Bhanu,
         
        Thanks much for your
        comments about Kishore Mahbubani.  I will be chewing on
        them.  Meanwhile, I have a few immediate questions below,
        and a Kishorean quote...
         

        re:
        BP <<< The East-to-West flight of global
        socio-cultural center is about to be reversed in near future.
        Kishore*s words seems to be prophetic up to this point. But what he
        has to see further is that the West-to-East flight of global
        socio-cultural polarity would be consummated in China. And the credit
        for this historic phenomenon would go exclusively to China.

         
        PL >  Qs:
         
        "Credit" by whom?  -- What do you mean by "credit for this historic phenomenon would go
        exclusively to China"? 
         
        In his talk Kishore conveyed his
        perception that China will probably become the most
        powerful economy within approx the next decade.  He also
        stated, as he also does in his Feb 2013 book (The Great
        Convergence), that China will
        eventually become more democratic.  At his Cornell talk, Kishore
        said that China has learned from Russia's bad experience
        of shifting towards
        democracy too quickly;--- that
        economic depression would result, as it did with Russia.  He
        believes that there is currently a very gradual transition towards
        democracy underway in
        China.  
        He gave the example of travel by
        Chinese citizens out and then back
        into China, for multi-year durations,
        as a example of this transition. 
         
        Do you agree with any
        of this?
         
        I realize that those of us who personally
        know victims of Chinese oppression/violence find the prospect of a more powerful China
        challenging;  including the challenge of having any faith
        that Chinese political evoluton could be positive re: human
        rights;  That said, here is a quote from
        Convergence:
         
        Nevertheless, a more democratic China
        will emerge.  The ultimate political destination for China is not
        in doubt.  It will be an unavoidable choice, especially once
        China has developed the largest middle class in the world.  The
        only question is whether America or any other power will ...

        interfer(e) with China's domestic processes.  The temptation to
        interfere is strong in America. 
        A wiser course is to
        allow China to
        develop at its own pace. 
        By not crossing the red line in this area, America would also help to preserve geopolitical
        stability.
               
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
            Convergence, K-Mahbubani,
        p.157.
         
        Any thoughts?
         
        re:
        BP>>> That is not all. The saddest part
        of the futuristic story is that the Titanic will sink prior to this
        stretch of evolution of history, if an averting magic doesn*t occur.
        The doomed ship is India, the second Titanic. And this Titanic, even
        as she arrives at the bottom of the ocean, will still have in her
        coffers the heart (the metaphor to mean genes) of the planet.

         
        PL >
        Qs
        What is the first "Titanic"?......USA?  And could you
        say more about what you mean by the 2nd Titanic
        (India) "will still have
        in her coffers the heart (the metaphor to mean genes) of the
        planet"?
        I think I know what you mean, but not
        sure....
         
         
        In general, what do you imagine the world, with China as the most powerful
        economy,
        will be like?
         
         
        Gratitude, Bhanu.

         
        Namaste,

        Pat  :
        )
        ___________________________________________
        __________________________________________________
         
                     
                                 
        May our efforts benefit

                                 
        all beings and the earth
                 


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Bhanu Padmo

        To: Wisdom-l@yahoogroups.com
        ; TheBecoming@yahoogroups.com
        ; existlist@yahoogroups.com
        ; seerseeker@yahoogroups.com
        ; TheRampaPath@yahoogroups.com
        ; greenlogic@yahoogroups.com
        ; esotericismspirituality@yahoogroups.com

        Sent: 2013-02-22 07:22
        Subject: Re: [Wisdom-l] Bhanu:
        Kishore Mahbubani ?

         






        My Dear Pat, Namaste.
         
        (The Story of Second
        Titanic)
         
        I
        am reminded of a joke when one talks about Kishore Mahbubani*s
        recognition of western worth in such terms as *Seven Pillars
        of Western Wisdom* (viz. Free-market economics, Science and
        Technology, Meritocracy, Pragmatism, Culture of Peace, Rule of
        Law, Education).
         
        The joke is this. You (a woman) meet
        somebody (another woman) for whom you develop soon a liking
        for reasons unknown to you and inquire of her some personal
        details. Your fondness for this person ascends as you listen
        to attractive self-descriptions whose plausibility you have
        already assumed. How nice it was to know that this potential
        friend was an artist, a singer, an engineer, a social worker
        and so on! However, she would like to whisper the last point
        about her into your ear, feeling a bit coy over the fact that
        you wouldn*t probably like the last characteristic. And she
        finally tells you that she is in the grip of the habit of
        lying!!
         
        Naturally, you would now be ashamed of
        your altruism of believing the woman as this moral
        retrogression was enough to annul all of her purported
        positive features. The last personal feature whispered into
        your ears is indeed the *absolute retrograde*.
         
        Similarly, what if one or more
        Kishorean Pillars of purported Western Wisdom happens to be a
        socio-culture retrograde? An absolute socio-cultural
        retrograde?
         
        If you take a close look at these
        seven pillars of wisdom, you find each one of them to be a
        composite agent of civilization, not a singular/ elementary
        one. These composites could be riddled with deficiency and
        redundancy.
         
        For example, free market economics can
        not be deemed to be benign at all if it is to implicitly
        acknowledge the in-built vice of encouraging unlimited
        superfluity of choices about the most redundant material
        requirement - at the cost of longevity of our planet (that is
        being deemed to cradle the peak evolution of
        universe).
         
        Science and technology isn*t a lay
        option available unconditionally without a socio-cultural
        prelude and moral-instinctive pre-condition.
         
        An inadequately conceived meritocracy
        runs the risk of being overwhelmed by snobbish vagary of
        education.
         
        Pragmatism contaminated with conceit
        could, if not rectified in time, turn into virtual cannibalism
        at some stage.
         
        Rule of law could turn into a piece of
        deceptive rhetoric if promulgation of law as an integral part
        of national sovereignty was to be devoid of the concern of
        nationalizing wisdom and jurisprudence.
         
        Culture of peace could be a
        redundantly altruist notion if it doesn*t consider any
        objective higher than mere peaceful coexistence.
         
        These seven composite agents of
        civilization need to be resolved into their elementary
        components firstly and then, the retrograde components must be
        isolated and quarantined as germs of apocalypse. The
        identities of individual agents need to be expressed as
        permutation-combination of their elements and any agent with
        in-built retrograde element is to be stricken off.
         
         
        How many of these purported pillars of
        western wisdom will survive this ingenious intellectual
        operation to assign a semblance of dignity and ascribe a
        semblance of superiority to US/ West? In other words, Kishore
        needs to brace up to clear own vision. Because this
        intellectual exercise will also clarify if Kishore-perceived
        American-Western wisdom and image is indeed positive or is
        mostly mistaken. He could have mistaken imposed dignity and
        brute superiority for proof of wisdom abstract.
         
        Kishore*s 
        perception of the East is also equally indiscriminate
        and lopsided. Take the two prominent corners of Eastern
        Hemisphere viz. China and India. He appears to have reckoned
        both equal with respect to respective march to modernity,
        weltanschauug (worldview), actual self-worth, implementation
        of personal freedom, capacity to embrace the West and
        multitude of aspects of civilization Kishore Mahbubani so
        ornately spells. He couldn*t be more wrong.
         
        How can he be expected to be even
        marginally right in this comparative study if he doesn*t have
        and doesn*t look for the cardinal/ absolute index of society/
        culture/ civilization? The easiest and the best one probably
        is the index of crime/ immorality. Has he ever put India on
        crime/ immorality scale? Has he ever witnessed/ imagined the
        ghastliness of the actual Indian social scenario? Or, has he
        again made the mistake of seeing through the warped American
        eye that may discount million socio-cultural deaths of another
        country (third-word country) to capitalize on few conducive/
        selected politicizable cases of purported/ fictitious *human
        right violation* underscoring a lopsided sense of morality and
        justice?
         
        Kishore commits the double-fault of
        overestimating classical West/ US and Modern India, the two
        chameleons. This makes his international perspective
        deficient.
         
        We do appreciate his surmises about
        the foreseeable fall of American pseudo-modernism and rise of
        Asia. But the story that will unfold to vindicate Kishore*s
        surmises is different from the details he conjures up. It is
        the story of the great triangle whose vertices represent
        centers of global civilization of past, present and
        future.
         
        The past had witnessed the greatest
        socio-cultural polarization in the Eastern Hemisphere, in
        India. The present age is still witnessing the highest global
        polarization in the Western Hemisphere, in US/ West. This
        flight of global center from East to West depicted the rise of
        the West and the decline of the East.
         
        The East-to-West flight of global
        socio-cultural center is about to be reversed in near future.
        Kishore*s words seems to be prophetic up to this point. But
        what he has to see further is that the West-to-East flight of
        global socio-cultural polarity would be consummated in China.
        And the credit for this historic phenomenon would go
        exclusively to China.
         
        That is not all. The saddest part of
        the futuristic story is that the Titanic will sink prior to
        this stretch of evolution of history, if an averting magic
        doesn*t occur. The doomed ship is India, the second Titanic.
        And this Titanic, even as she arrives at the bottom of the
        ocean, will still have in her coffers the heart (the metaphor
        to mean genes) of the planet.
         
        How would India be so doomed? - That
        is because of its neo-Indian navigators who still think the
        clean-and-crystalline heaven (iceberg) visible ahead is the
        destination.  
         
        How would China be rewarded with such
        a global glory? - That is because she is the heir apparent to
        pan-Indian socio-cultural legacy, erstwhile global essence,
        because she is thus the inheritor of feline human genes. To
        realize this, you have to look into the transcendental theory
        of evolution that puts civilization as function of national
        genes and that puts national genes as function of metaphysical
        movements. The time-bomb of Buddhist metaphysics have been
        ticking to conflagrate as the winner genes later in
        China.
         
        What is that actual tipping national
        characteristic that would give China an edge over US/ West. It
        is progressive incorporation of higher democracy into national
        constitution. Protraction of disproportionate/ unlimited
        econo-social security is taking epidemic form to gnaw away
        Western Democracy, the iceberg that India wishes to harvest a
        destination from.
         
        Is Chinese success really so succinct?
        - No. It isn*t. It is about to be on the crossroad where it
        will meet the fatal contingency of choosing between the
        Kishore Mahbubani-spelt sevel pillars of western wisdom with
        in-built retrogrades and civil democracy projected by the
        theory of absolute polity.

        (Bhanu Padmo)
        http://www.bhanupadmo.com
        You may reply this thread
        upon http://in.groups.yahoo.com/group/greenlogic/%c2%a0
        as well
        or consign a copy to greenlogic@...  
        for extended discussions.

        --- On Mon,
        2/18/13, Pat Louise Davies <pld@...>
        wrote:


        From: Pat
        Louise Davies <pld@...>
        Subject:
        [Wisdom-l] Bhanu: Kishore Mahbubani ?
        To:
        Wisdom-l@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Monday, February 18, 2013,
        7:01 PM



         


         
         
        Hello Bhanu &
        Friends,
         
        Since you and others have some
        interest in political philosopy, Bhanu, I am wondering if
        you are familiar with the writings of Kishore
        Mahbubani?  If so, what are your opinions of his
        ideas?  As you may know, he was the President of the UN
        Security Council 2001-02, and UN Ambassador from
        Singapore.  He was born of
        Indian parents in an impoverished area of Singapore 64 yrs
        ago.
         
        I heard Kishore speak recently @
        Cornell and found his ideas about the need for world
        collaboration interesting; I am currently reading 4 of his
        books.  In his view, the USA's tendency to stay
        stuck focusing on world
        leadership instead of supporting world organizations and
        other means of world collaboration is very problematic &
        unfortunate for the USA now, and going forward.
         
        Kishore's message at the outset
        of his Cornell talk was that there is much pessimism in
        the West, including Europe, whereas many Eastern countries
        are enjoying much rapid successful economic/cultural
        development as a result of being influenced by " The 7
        Pillars of Western Wisdom" (his term which includes free
        market, rule of law, etc...) and are optimistic;  In
        his view, the West is currenty moving away from the 7
        pillars. 
         
        Many points of his Cornell talk are
        laid out in his most recent book published in Feb/13. 
        He discussed the 7 pillars in
        his 2008 book: The New Asian
        Hemisphere.
         
        Your thoughts?
         
        Thanks ~ Namaste,  Pat
        Louise
         
        ____________________________________________________________________
                 
                                 
                    May
        our efforts benefit

                                  
                   all
        beings and the
        earth.         

























        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • existlist
        Bhanu, Why not talk to us instead of forwarding emails from other groups? They are difficult to follow. I ve tried. h.
        Message 3 of 5 , Feb 28, 2013
        • 0 Attachment
          Bhanu,
          Why not talk to us instead of forwarding emails from other groups? They are difficult to follow. I've tried.

          h.
        • Bhanu Padmo
          hermitcrab, OK, I will surely talk to you (existlist members). The difficulty, I presume, may persist however. That is because of the aspect. The forwarded
          Message 4 of 5 , Mar 12, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
            hermitcrab,

            OK, I will surely talk to you (existlist members). The difficulty, I presume, may persist however. That is because of the aspect.

            The forwarded posts, if you have noticed, were essays dealing with a theme then and there. No short chats.

            Next intermittent posts too, though may be directed to one of you, will be short essays. Because of my inability to be present at the internet desk for protracted/ continuous whiles, I won*t be really able to *chat* with you all. You may have to bear with my rather queer procedure.

            (Bhanu)

            --- On Fri, 3/1/13, existlist <hermitcrab65@...> wrote:

            From: existlist <hermitcrab65@...>
            Subject: [existlist] [Wisdom-l] Questions -- Re: Bhanu: Kishore Mahbubani ?
            To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Friday, March 1, 2013, 12:50 AM
















             









            Bhanu,

            Why not talk to us instead of forwarding emails from other groups? They are difficult to follow. I've tried.



            h.



























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