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Re: [Wisdom-l] Questions -- Re: Bhanu: Kishore Mahbubani ?

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  • Bhanu Padmo
    Hi Pat!   Statistical Analysis versus Philosophical Analysis.  I have tried to analyse the notions of *universal national sovereignty* and *absolute/ ideal
    Message 1 of 5 , Feb 24, 2013
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      Hi
      Pat!

       

      Statistical Analysis
      versus Philosophical Analysis.  I
      have tried to analyse the notions of *universal national sovereignty* and *absolute/
      ideal polity* in the article *Sino-American Relativism …* (to follow). A nation
      that implements these notions deserves universal/ absolute credit. China seems
      to be on the path of implementing those key democratic doctrines.

       

      Kishore
      Mahbubani*s prediction about economic growth of China is statistical or
      empirical, being a mere futuristic projection of current trend. So is his
      prediction of further democratization of China. Such observations as **China*s
      learning from Russia*s bad experience of shifting towards democracy too
      quickly** can be put in the class of academic retrospective wistful thinking.

       

      Relationship
      between democracy (democratization) and economy (onset of economic depression) is
      far more intriguing than what an under-represented Russian story alone could
      disclose. Mahbubani ought to take advantage of the intellectual prowess of
      philosophy while carrying out an analysis in these contexts. Simple futuristic projection
      of current statistical/ empirical information would make it a contingent
      prediction. In short, the ethos of Mahbubani*s analyses could have been deeper.

       

      Undulating History of
      China.  Under special conditions, history of a land
      undulates like a wave. China*s swing from Buddhism to Communism and back to
      Neo-Communism is an instance of historical undulation. Waves don*t leave
      permanent marks on surface. We have to be optimistic about political developments
      in China keeping an eye on its Buddhist backdrop.

       

      The
      new theory of evolution would vindicate such a stand, because it says that
      protracted metaphysical subscription would dent the genetics commensurably to
      sustain the respective psycho-intellectual and socio-moral attributes beyond
      turbulent times.

       

      About
      the Titanic-Metaphor, the first Titanic ought to be the actual doomed ship *Titanic*.
      India is likened to a similar doomed unseemly phenomenon. US will never sink.
      It will remain afloat because of her intrinsic buoyancy.

       

      Heart of Earth.  To know the *heart of planet*, we may have to
      sink deeper into the philosophy of mankind. In short : If you imagine
      disposition of all human genes in human chromosomes, you could see them forming
      a great hierarchy conforming to the hierarchy of human instincts. The levels of
      instincts from bottom to top may be grossly reckoned as metabolic, sensual,
      emotive, intuitive levels etc.   

       

      Evolution
      of human being is being carried forward through evolution of instinct and
      instinctive genes. Higher sustained personal inferences precipitate as
      instincts and instinctive genes which are absorbed into and collated in the
      pyramid of instincts and the pyramid of instinctive genes respectively. So the wiser
      sections of mankind evolve faster and the genetics of this race holds deeper
      clues to human nature and opens wider doors to futurity of mankind.

       

      The
      wisest race of earth is that has the longest history of act of profound thinking.
      In that sense, India*s score seems to be impressive. However, assessment of
      India can be done only after resolving it into its *pan-Indian* and *neo-Indian*
      constituents. In the garb of the former, the latter has emerged as former*s
      contrary. Thus even if the net value of present India is nil or negative, its
      pan-Indian component would suffice to represent the entire planet. For, the
      pan-Indian (brown Aryan) tribe is the one where emerged hundreds of prophet/ prophet-like
      personalities viz. Buddha, Krishna, Kapila, Patanjali, Indrabhuti,
      Padmasambhava, Nagarjuna, Samkara and many more.

       



      (Bhanu Padmo)

      http://www.bhanupadmo.com


      You
      may reply this thread upon http://in.groups.yahoo.com/group/greenlogic/%c2%a0
      as well

      or consign a copy to greenlogic@...   for extended discussions.



      --- On Fri, 2/22/13, Pat Louise Davies <pld@...> wrote:

      From: Pat Louise Davies <pld@...>
      Subject: [Wisdom-l] Questions -- Re: Bhanu: Kishore Mahbubani ?
      To: esotericismspirituality@yahoogroups.com, greenlogic@yahoogroups.com, TheRampaPath@yahoogroups.com, seerseeker@yahoogroups.com, existlist@yahoogroups.com, TheBecoming@yahoogroups.com, Wisdom-l@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Friday, February 22, 2013, 8:34 PM
















       









      


       

      Bhanu,
       
      Thanks much for your comments about
      Kishore Mahbubani.  I will be chewing on them.  Meanwhile, I have
      a few immediate questions below, and a Kishorean quote...
       

      re:
      BP
      <<< The East-to-West flight of
      global socio-cultural center is about to be reversed in near future. Kishore*s
      words seems to be prophetic up to this point. But what he has to see further is
      that the West-to-East flight of global socio-cultural polarity would be
      consummated in China. And the credit for this historic phenomenon would go
      exclusively to China.
       
      PL >  Qs:
       
      "Credit" by whom?  -- What do you mean by "credit for
      this historic phenomenon would go exclusively to China"? 

       
      In his talk Kishore conveyed his
      perception that China will probably become the most powerful economy
      within approx the next decade.  He also stated, as he also does in his
      Feb 2013 book (The Great Convergence), that China will eventually become more democratic.  At his
      Cornell talk, Kishore said that China has learned from Russia's bad experience
      of shifting towards
      democracy too quickly;--- that economic
      depression would result, as it did with Russia.  He believes that there is
      currently a very gradual transition towards democracy underway in China.  
      He gave the example of travel by Chinese citizens out and
      then back into China, for multi-year
      durations, as a example of this transition. 

       
      Do you agree with any of
      this?
       
      I realize that those of us who personally
      know victims of Chinese oppression/violence find the prospect of a more powerful China challenging; 
      including the challenge of having any faith that Chinese political evoluton
      could be positive re: human rights;  That said, here is a quote from
      Convergence:
       
      Nevertheless, a more democratic China will
      emerge.  The ultimate political destination for China is not in
      doubt.  It will be an unavoidable choice, especially once China has
      developed the largest middle class in the world.  The only question is
      whether America or any other power will ...
      interfer(e) with China's domestic processes.  The temptation to interfere is
      strong in America. 
      A wiser course is to
      allow China to
      develop at its own pace.  By not
      crossing the red line in this area, America would also help to preserve geopolitical stability.

             
                     
                     
                     
                     
                  Convergence,
      K-Mahbubani, p.157.
       
      Any thoughts?
       
      re:
      BP>>> That is not all. The saddest part of the
      futuristic story is that the Titanic will sink prior to this stretch of
      evolution of history, if an averting magic doesn*t occur. The doomed ship is
      India, the second Titanic. And this Titanic, even as she arrives at the bottom
      of the ocean, will still have in her coffers the heart (the metaphor to mean
      genes) of the planet.
       
      PL > Qs
      What is
      the first "Titanic"?......USA?  And could you say more about what you
      mean by the 2nd Titanic (India) "will still have in her coffers the heart (the metaphor to mean
      genes) of the planet"?
      I think I know
      what you mean, but not sure....
       
       
      In general, what
      do you imagine the world, with China as the most powerful economy,
      will be
      like?
       
       
      Gratitude, Bhanu.
       
      Namaste,
      Pat  : )
      ___________________________________________
      __________________________________________________
       
                   
                               
      May our efforts benefit

                               
      all beings and the earth
               

      ----- Original Message -----
      From:
      Bhanu
      Padmo
      To: Wisdom-l@yahoogroups.com ; TheBecoming@yahoogroups.com ; existlist@yahoogroups.com ; seerseeker@yahoogroups.com ; TheRampaPath@yahoogroups.com ;
      greenlogic@yahoogroups.com ; esotericismspirituality@yahoogroups.com

      Sent: 2013-02-22 07:22
      Subject: Re: [Wisdom-l] Bhanu: Kishore
      Mahbubani ?

       






      My Dear Pat, Namaste.
       
      (The Story of Second Titanic)
       
      I am reminded of a joke
      when one talks about Kishore Mahbubani*s recognition of western worth in
      such terms as *Seven Pillars of Western Wisdom* (viz. Free-market
      economics, Science and Technology, Meritocracy, Pragmatism, Culture of
      Peace, Rule of Law, Education).
       
      The joke is this. You
      (a woman) meet somebody (another woman) for whom you develop soon a
      liking for reasons unknown to you and inquire of her some personal
      details. Your fondness for this person ascends as you listen to
      attractive self-descriptions whose plausibility you have already
      assumed. How nice it was to know that this potential friend was an
      artist, a singer, an engineer, a social worker and so on! However, she
      would like to whisper the last point about her into your ear, feeling a
      bit coy over the fact that you wouldn*t probably like the last
      characteristic. And she finally tells you that she is in the grip of the
      habit of lying!!
       
      Naturally, you would
      now be ashamed of your altruism of believing the woman as this moral
      retrogression was enough to annul all of her purported positive
      features. The last personal feature whispered into your ears is indeed
      the *absolute retrograde*.
       
      Similarly, what if one
      or more Kishorean Pillars of purported Western Wisdom happens to be a
      socio-culture retrograde? An absolute socio-cultural
      retrograde?
       
      If you take a close
      look at these seven pillars of wisdom, you find each one of them to be a
      composite agent of civilization, not a singular/ elementary one. These
      composites could be riddled with deficiency and redundancy.
       
      For example, free
      market economics can not be deemed to be benign at all if it is to
      implicitly acknowledge the in-built vice of encouraging unlimited
      superfluity of choices about the most redundant material requirement -
      at the cost of longevity of our planet (that is being deemed to cradle
      the peak evolution of universe).
       
      Science and technology
      isn*t a lay option available unconditionally without a socio-cultural
      prelude and moral-instinctive pre-condition.
       
      An inadequately
      conceived meritocracy runs the risk of being overwhelmed by snobbish
      vagary of education.
       
      Pragmatism contaminated
      with conceit could, if not rectified in time, turn into virtual
      cannibalism at some stage.
       
      Rule of law could turn
      into a piece of deceptive rhetoric if promulgation of law as an integral
      part of national sovereignty was to be devoid of the concern of
      nationalizing wisdom and jurisprudence.
       
      Culture of peace could
      be a redundantly altruist notion if it doesn*t consider any objective
      higher than mere peaceful coexistence.
       
      These seven composite
      agents of civilization need to be resolved into their elementary
      components firstly and then, the retrograde components must be isolated
      and quarantined as germs of apocalypse. The identities of individual
      agents need to be expressed as permutation-combination of their elements
      and any agent with in-built retrograde element is to be stricken off.
       
       
      How many of these
      purported pillars of western wisdom will survive this ingenious
      intellectual operation to assign a semblance of dignity and ascribe a
      semblance of superiority to US/ West? In other words, Kishore needs to
      brace up to clear own vision. Because this intellectual exercise will
      also clarify if Kishore-perceived American-Western wisdom and image is
      indeed positive or is mostly mistaken. He could have mistaken imposed
      dignity and brute superiority for proof of wisdom abstract.
       
      Kishore*s 
      perception of the East is also equally indiscriminate and
      lopsided. Take the two prominent corners of Eastern Hemisphere viz.
      China and India. He appears to have reckoned both equal with respect to
      respective march to modernity, weltanschauug (worldview), actual
      self-worth, implementation of personal freedom, capacity to embrace the
      West and multitude of aspects of civilization Kishore Mahbubani so
      ornately spells. He couldn*t be more wrong.
       
      How can he be expected
      to be even marginally right in this comparative study if he doesn*t have
      and doesn*t look for the cardinal/ absolute index of society/ culture/
      civilization? The easiest and the best one probably is the index of
      crime/ immorality. Has he ever put India on crime/ immorality scale? Has
      he ever witnessed/ imagined the ghastliness of the actual Indian social
      scenario? Or, has he again made the mistake of seeing through the warped
      American eye that may discount million socio-cultural deaths of another
      country (third-word country) to capitalize on few conducive/ selected
      politicizable cases of purported/ fictitious *human right violation*
      underscoring a lopsided sense of morality and justice?
       
      Kishore commits the
      double-fault of overestimating classical West/ US and Modern India, the
      two chameleons. This makes his international perspective deficient.

       
      We do appreciate his
      surmises about the foreseeable fall of American pseudo-modernism and
      rise of Asia. But the story that will unfold to vindicate Kishore*s
      surmises is different from the details he conjures up. It is the story
      of the great triangle whose vertices represent centers of global
      civilization of past, present and future.
       
      The past had witnessed
      the greatest socio-cultural polarization in the Eastern Hemisphere, in
      India. The present age is still witnessing the highest global
      polarization in the Western Hemisphere, in US/ West. This flight of
      global center from East to West depicted the rise of the West and the
      decline of the East.
       
      The East-to-West flight
      of global socio-cultural center is about to be reversed in near future.
      Kishore*s words seems to be prophetic up to this point. But what he has
      to see further is that the West-to-East flight of global socio-cultural
      polarity would be consummated in China. And the credit for this historic
      phenomenon would go exclusively to China.
       
      That is not all. The
      saddest part of the futuristic story is that the Titanic will sink prior
      to this stretch of evolution of history, if an averting magic doesn*t
      occur. The doomed ship is India, the second Titanic. And this Titanic,
      even as she arrives at the bottom of the ocean, will still have in her
      coffers the heart (the metaphor to mean genes) of the planet.

       
      How would India be so
      doomed? - That is because of its neo-Indian navigators who still think
      the clean-and-crystalline heaven (iceberg) visible ahead is the
      destination.  
       
      How would China be
      rewarded with such a global glory? - That is because she is the heir
      apparent to pan-Indian socio-cultural legacy, erstwhile global essence,
      because she is thus the inheritor of feline human genes. To realize
      this, you have to look into the transcendental theory of evolution that
      puts civilization as function of national genes and that puts national
      genes as function of metaphysical movements. The time-bomb of Buddhist
      metaphysics have been ticking to conflagrate as the winner genes later
      in China.
       
      What is that actual
      tipping national characteristic that would give China an edge over US/
      West. It is progressive incorporation of higher democracy into national
      constitution. Protraction of disproportionate/ unlimited econo-social
      security is taking epidemic form to gnaw away Western Democracy, the
      iceberg that India wishes to harvest a destination from.
       
      Is Chinese success
      really so succinct? - No. It isn*t. It is about to be on the crossroad
      where it will meet the fatal contingency of choosing between the Kishore
      Mahbubani-spelt sevel pillars of western wisdom with in-built
      retrogrades and civil democracy projected by the theory of absolute
      polity.

      (Bhanu Padmo)
      http://www.bhanupadmo.com

      You may reply this thread upon http://in.groups.yahoo.com/group/greenlogic/%c2%a0
      as well
      or consign a copy to greenlogic@...  
      for extended discussions.

      --- On Mon, 2/18/13, Pat Louise Davies
      <pld@...> wrote:


      From:
      Pat Louise Davies <pld@...>
      Subject: [Wisdom-l]
      Bhanu: Kishore Mahbubani ?
      To: Wisdom-l@yahoogroups.com
      Date:
      Monday, February 18, 2013, 7:01 PM



       


       
       
      Hello Bhanu & Friends,
       
      Since you and others have some interest in
      political philosopy, Bhanu, I am wondering if you are familiar with
      the writings of Kishore Mahbubani?  If so, what are your opinions
      of his ideas?  As you may know, he was the President of the UN
      Security Council 2001-02, and UN Ambassador from Singapore. 
      He was born of Indian parents in an
      impoverished area of Singapore 64 yrs ago.
       
      I heard Kishore speak recently @ Cornell and
      found his ideas about the need for world collaboration interesting; I
      am currently reading 4 of his books.  In his view, the USA's
      tendency to stay stuck focusing on world
      leadership instead of supporting world organizations and other means
      of world collaboration is very problematic & unfortunate for the
      USA now, and going forward.
       
      Kishore's message at the outset of his
      Cornell talk was that there is much pessimism in the West,
      including Europe, whereas many Eastern countries are enjoying much
      rapid successful economic/cultural development as a result of being
      influenced by " The 7 Pillars of Western Wisdom" (his term which
      includes free market, rule of law, etc...) and are optimistic; 
      In his view, the West is currenty moving away from the 7
      pillars. 
       
      Many points of his Cornell talk are laid out in
      his most recent book published in Feb/13.  He discussed
      the 7 pillars in his 2008 book: The
      New Asian Hemisphere.
       
      Your thoughts?
       
      Thanks ~ Namaste,  Pat Louise
       
      ____________________________________________________________________
               
                               
                  May our
      efforts benefit

                                
                 all beings and the
      earth.         

























      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Bhanu Padmo
      Hi Pat!   (Sino-American Relativism : Issues of National Sovereignty and Human Rights)   Let us start with the contentious issue of the prospect of Chinese
      Message 2 of 5 , Feb 24, 2013
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        Hi
        Pat!

         

        (Sino-American
        Relativism : Issues of National Sovereignty and Human Rights)

         

        Let
        us start with the contentious issue of the prospect of Chinese march towards
        the strongest economy.

         

        *National
        economy* without the underlying commensurate *general morality* proves, sooner
        or later, to be brute. *General morality* needs to be transformed into *national
        morality* through a consistent *polity*. *Political morality* is the matter of
        profound reasoning and is materialized through an appropriate *political model*.


         

        The
        primal question that a *political model* answers (and implements such an answer)
        is that about the true nature of *national sovereignty* and the formal method
        of creating/ assembling it. The *national constitution* ought to incorporate
        the answer (statement about nature of national sovereignty) and the model.

         

        The
        generic name of this model is *democracy*. The actual nature of identified
        national sovereignty is the index of the *native democracy*.

         

        Thus
        the analysis of consequences of *national economy* ought to take into
        consideration respective *political economy* that delineates the nature of
        identified national sovereignty, the nature of constitution with respect to
        incorporation of national sovereignty, the nature of political model thereof and
        the nature of political control over national economy.

         

        Be
        it China or US, the international impact of respective national economy will
        finally be the function of locally conceived and implemented general morality,
        polity, reasonability of political model, nature of national sovereignty and
        the methodology of assembling national sovereignty. The nodal point in this
        sequence is the nature of identified national sovereignty.

         

        Assuming
        that both these nations are not going to change much in near future, we may
        pull out our gamma counter to measure the strength of respective radiations in
        terms of rectitude (democratic values) of respective identified national
        sovereignty. The gamma counter (a contrivance for measuring number of gamma
        rays emanating out of a neighboring radioactive substance) is a metaphor for
        analysis (analytic power) of a nation*s physical international effects.

         

        Isn*t
        it very difficult to assess democratic values of a nation from its
        international physical relationships?

         

        It
        is not so difficult if we can appreciate *crime/ immorality/ cruelty statistics*
        as the *cardinal/ absolute index of organized status (community, nation,
        religion etc)*.

         

        While
        measuring democratic values of a national model, we have to resolve its aura
        into two components viz. *sub-frontier aura* (intra-national effect) and *trans-frontier
        aura* (international effect). Accordingly, our survey of crime/ immorality/
        cruelty would also have two components : *sub-frontier survey of national
        offenses* and *trans-frontier survey of national offences*.

         

        *Sub-frontier
        offenses* has two sub-divisions : *public offenses* and *administrative
        punishments*.

         

        Punishment
        is here seen as a form of catalytic cruelty that would deter multi-fold conflagration
        of cruelty in variant forms. Public offense as malevolent cruelty is a *positive
        offense*. Administrative punishment as benevolent cruelty is a *negative
        offense*. To be on the safer side, both *public positive offense* and *administrative
        negative offense* may be seen as human rights violations, real or virtual.

         

        Naturally,
        we are now reminded of the notions of *public negative offense* (public
        benevolent cruelty) and *administrative positive offense* (administrative malevolent
        cruelty) as well.

         

        To
        pass over the difficulty of discerning negative offense from positive offense in
        both public and administrative domains, we may think of *integral sub-frontier
        cruelty statistics*. *Integral sub-frontier cruelty* will thus be the sum of
        the contents of all four sections viz. positive and negative offenses of both
        public and administrative domains.

         

        Integral
        sub-frontier cruelty statistics may be taken at least as the gross *index of (working
        of) democratic values* within the frontiers of the nation. To be on the safer
        side, let this statistics depict the *integral human rights violation* of the
        nation.

         

        Would
        you like to assess American and Chinese records of *integral sub-frontier
        cruelty* or *integral sub-frontier human rights violation*?

         

        Shouldn*t
        we appreciate the fact that China has managed to lower the level of public
        crime/ offense almost to the ground, leaving not much option before us to be influenced
        by rumors (arising out of intentional diplomatic vitiations of isolated/
        selected cases)?

         

        Come
        to the other division of crime survey : statistics of trans-frontier crime/
        immorality/ cruelty. xxx

         

        Effects
        of induced wars and imposed international policies originating from American
        premises need to be inspected and assessed thoroughly to come to the unexpected
        final count. Obvious answers to few discreet questions do outline the
        trans-frontier American image. Is America bothered about even simple survival
        of third-world countries if they don*t opt to be subjugated by her most
        abjectly? Does America appreciate unconditional benevolence? Does America
        tolerate other*s sense of independence and contentment?

         

        Why
        have we to seem so mean and make such utterances against America when American *general
        morality* is so high? Undeniable is the radical and creative outlook of
        Americans. Unparalleled is their intellectual contribution to mankind. Insuperability
        of their wisdom has been quite appropriately translated into insuperability of
        their physical might. Why have we to seem so mean and make such utterances
        against America then?

         

        The
        answer to this queer question is connoted by these counter questions : Why has
        then the issue of China cropped up so obtrusively? Why did the concern of relative
        deceleration of US/ West (with respect to unstoppably accelerating China)
        become so imminent so soon? How could a fallen and ailing China come round to
        emulate US/ West in just six decades of time?

         

        All
        these connote the tipping point abut descent and ascent of nations. We have
        indicated earlier at the very beginning of this discussion the incidence of
        this tipping point in the nature of identified national sovereignty and the
        commensurate political model and the ensuing degree of native democracy. That
        is it.

         

        Extant
        great *general morality-creativity* of US/ West would have to be transformed
        into respective *national-political morality-creativity* through a consistent *polity*
        equipped with an appropriate *political model*. Without a womb, the body would
        have to be infertile. American general morality lacks the womb to generate
        great (benign) global consequences. What is being projected currently as
        American/ Western global impact may not be as great, as benign.

        The
        womb is the commensurate *political model* that would uphold great democratic
        values through better appreciation of national sovereignty. What is being
        projected currently as American/ Western democratic values may not be as great.

         

        So
        everything boils down to the definition of national sovereignty. This
        definition could generate the absolute/ ideal polity, the absolute/ ideal
        democracy.

         

        American
        political system lacks the requisite concern about that definition and model.
        That is how American *national-political morality* stands contrary to American *general
        morality*. That is how American image is so ambiguous, so anomalous. That is
        how American government and American people are two separate/ different/
        incommensurable entities. America seem to be suffering from an excruciating *political
        dualism*.

         

        If
        not solved in time, this political dualism will make extant American glory
        fade. It will become a burden to itself and to the world. It will bring about the
        great decline of the West. We are talking about the millenary events.

         

        The
        decline is to be understood in dynamic/ relative view. The relative decline
        with respect to China is the context. There are already indications of
        irreversible relative deceleration of America/ West or irreversible relative
        acceleration of China.

         

        The
        *theory of universal national sovereignty and absolute polity* would apply to
        all countries, big or small, old or new, US or China or India, alike. The
        relative progression of China and the relative recession of US could be
        explained by the same theory. If US is losing its hold on own prospects by way
        of being a mere bystander to own worsening political dualism, then China would
        have to be deemed to be tightening its hold on own prospects by way of solving
        own political dualism discreetly and progressively.

         

        If
        we take *political model* and the ensuing *national-political morality-creativity*
        as the cause and the *general morality-creativity* as the consequence, the
        present scenario for US and China may be delineated as follows : US may be
        deemed to have currently a higher general morality-creativity and lesser
        national-political morality-creativity when China may be deemed to have currently
        a lower general morality-creativity and higher national-political morality-creativity.
        Since, national-political morality-creativity is *causal* with respect to
        shaping of general morality-creativity, edging of China may be ascribed to the
        higher degree of the causal agency (higher political morality) it has managed
        to procure and wield.

         

        Reckoning
        the *political morality* of a country isn*t easy. A better cultural legacy or a
        persuasive propaganda may cause the current political morality seem higher. US
        enjoys such a position and has managed to be popular as a high democracy. This
        assumption has made US political system seem colorful and benign. To know
        whether it is truly so, we shall have to put her to the critical test. The critical
        test is the nature of her conviction about *national sovereignty*.

         

        Is
        the plenary body of best US citizens universally and eternally empowered by the
        US Constitution to integratedly rule that country at every level by way of
        nationalizing an evolving wisdom and jurisprudence (to be internationalized by
        global consensus later)? Has US contemplated over such a possibility? Has US
        taken even the first step towards organizing own citizens on the basis of dream
        and emotion into a country-wide and plenary civil hierarchy?

         

        Has
        China contemplated over such a possibility in own case and acted upon such
        contemplations?

         

        Benignancy
        or malignancy of a powerful national economy will be the function of the degree
        of conformity to this seminal political/ constitutional morality. Baseless
        apprehension about Sino-American relativism doesn*t matter. Primacy of
        definition of national sovereignty and the ensuing theory of absolute polity is
        the guiding light.

         

        Unstoppability
        of march to power will be accompanied by steep moral ascension. We need not be
        afraid of the reasonable future.




        (Bhanu Padmo)

        http://www.bhanupadmo.com


        You
        may reply this thread upon http://in.groups.yahoo.com/group/greenlogic/%c2%a0
        as well

        or consign a copy to greenlogic@...   for extended discussions.



        --- On Fri, 2/22/13, Pat Louise Davies <pld@...> wrote:

        From: Pat Louise Davies <pld@...>
        Subject: [Wisdom-l] Questions -- Re: Bhanu: Kishore Mahbubani ?
        To: esotericismspirituality@yahoogroups.com, greenlogic@yahoogroups.com, TheRampaPath@yahoogroups.com, seerseeker@yahoogroups.com, existlist@yahoogroups.com, TheBecoming@yahoogroups.com, Wisdom-l@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Friday, February 22, 2013, 8:34 PM
















         









        


         

        Bhanu,
         
        Thanks much for your comments about
        Kishore Mahbubani.  I will be chewing on them.  Meanwhile, I have
        a few immediate questions below, and a Kishorean quote...
         

        re:
        BP
        <<< The East-to-West flight of
        global socio-cultural center is about to be reversed in near future. Kishore*s
        words seems to be prophetic up to this point. But what he has to see further is
        that the West-to-East flight of global socio-cultural polarity would be
        consummated in China. And the credit for this historic phenomenon would go
        exclusively to China.
         
        PL >  Qs:
         
        "Credit" by whom?  -- What do you mean by "credit for
        this historic phenomenon would go exclusively to China"? 

         
        In his talk Kishore conveyed his
        perception that China will probably become the most powerful economy
        within approx the next decade.  He also stated, as he also does in his
        Feb 2013 book (The Great Convergence), that China will eventually become more democratic.  At his
        Cornell talk, Kishore said that China has learned from Russia's bad experience
        of shifting towards
        democracy too quickly;--- that economic
        depression would result, as it did with Russia.  He believes that there is
        currently a very gradual transition towards democracy underway in China.  
        He gave the example of travel by Chinese citizens out and
        then back into China, for multi-year
        durations, as a example of this transition. 

         
        Do you agree with any of
        this?
         
        I realize that those of us who personally
        know victims of Chinese oppression/violence find the prospect of a more powerful China challenging; 
        including the challenge of having any faith that Chinese political evoluton
        could be positive re: human rights;  That said, here is a quote from
        Convergence:
         
        Nevertheless, a more democratic China will
        emerge.  The ultimate political destination for China is not in
        doubt.  It will be an unavoidable choice, especially once China has
        developed the largest middle class in the world.  The only question is
        whether America or any other power will ...
        interfer(e) with China's domestic processes.  The temptation to interfere is
        strong in America. 
        A wiser course is to
        allow China to
        develop at its own pace.  By not
        crossing the red line in this area, America would also help to preserve geopolitical stability.

               
                       
                       
                       
                       
                    Convergence,
        K-Mahbubani, p.157.
         
        Any thoughts?
         
        re:
        BP>>> That is not all. The saddest part of the
        futuristic story is that the Titanic will sink prior to this stretch of
        evolution of history, if an averting magic doesn*t occur. The doomed ship is
        India, the second Titanic. And this Titanic, even as she arrives at the bottom
        of the ocean, will still have in her coffers the heart (the metaphor to mean
        genes) of the planet.
         
        PL > Qs
        What is
        the first "Titanic"?......USA?  And could you say more about what you
        mean by the 2nd Titanic (India) "will still have in her coffers the heart (the metaphor to mean
        genes) of the planet"?
        I think I know
        what you mean, but not sure....
         
         
        In general, what
        do you imagine the world, with China as the most powerful economy,
        will be
        like?
         
         
        Gratitude, Bhanu.
         
        Namaste,
        Pat  : )
        ___________________________________________
        __________________________________________________
         
                     
                                 
        May our efforts benefit

                                 
        all beings and the earth
                 

        ----- Original Message -----
        From:
        Bhanu
        Padmo
        To: Wisdom-l@yahoogroups.com ; TheBecoming@yahoogroups.com ; existlist@yahoogroups.com ; seerseeker@yahoogroups.com ; TheRampaPath@yahoogroups.com ;
        greenlogic@yahoogroups.com ; esotericismspirituality@yahoogroups.com

        Sent: 2013-02-22 07:22
        Subject: Re: [Wisdom-l] Bhanu: Kishore
        Mahbubani ?

         






        My Dear Pat, Namaste.
         
        (The Story of Second Titanic)
         
        I am reminded of a joke
        when one talks about Kishore Mahbubani*s recognition of western worth in
        such terms as *Seven Pillars of Western Wisdom* (viz. Free-market
        economics, Science and Technology, Meritocracy, Pragmatism, Culture of
        Peace, Rule of Law, Education).
         
        The joke is this. You
        (a woman) meet somebody (another woman) for whom you develop soon a
        liking for reasons unknown to you and inquire of her some personal
        details. Your fondness for this person ascends as you listen to
        attractive self-descriptions whose plausibility you have already
        assumed. How nice it was to know that this potential friend was an
        artist, a singer, an engineer, a social worker and so on! However, she
        would like to whisper the last point about her into your ear, feeling a
        bit coy over the fact that you wouldn*t probably like the last
        characteristic. And she finally tells you that she is in the grip of the
        habit of lying!!
         
        Naturally, you would
        now be ashamed of your altruism of believing the woman as this moral
        retrogression was enough to annul all of her purported positive
        features. The last personal feature whispered into your ears is indeed
        the *absolute retrograde*.
         
        Similarly, what if one
        or more Kishorean Pillars of purported Western Wisdom happens to be a
        socio-culture retrograde? An absolute socio-cultural
        retrograde?
         
        If you take a close
        look at these seven pillars of wisdom, you find each one of them to be a
        composite agent of civilization, not a singular/ elementary one. These
        composites could be riddled with deficiency and redundancy.
         
        For example, free
        market economics can not be deemed to be benign at all if it is to
        implicitly acknowledge the in-built vice of encouraging unlimited
        superfluity of choices about the most redundant material requirement -
        at the cost of longevity of our planet (that is being deemed to cradle
        the peak evolution of universe).
         
        Science and technology
        isn*t a lay option available unconditionally without a socio-cultural
        prelude and moral-instinctive pre-condition.
         
        An inadequately
        conceived meritocracy runs the risk of being overwhelmed by snobbish
        vagary of education.
         
        Pragmatism contaminated
        with conceit could, if not rectified in time, turn into virtual
        cannibalism at some stage.
         
        Rule of law could turn
        into a piece of deceptive rhetoric if promulgation of law as an integral
        part of national sovereignty was to be devoid of the concern of
        nationalizing wisdom and jurisprudence.
         
        Culture of peace could
        be a redundantly altruist notion if it doesn*t consider any objective
        higher than mere peaceful coexistence.
         
        These seven composite
        agents of civilization need to be resolved into their elementary
        components firstly and then, the retrograde components must be isolated
        and quarantined as germs of apocalypse. The identities of individual
        agents need to be expressed as permutation-combination of their elements
        and any agent with in-built retrograde element is to be stricken off.
         
         
        How many of these
        purported pillars of western wisdom will survive this ingenious
        intellectual operation to assign a semblance of dignity and ascribe a
        semblance of superiority to US/ West? In other words, Kishore needs to
        brace up to clear own vision. Because this intellectual exercise will
        also clarify if Kishore-perceived American-Western wisdom and image is
        indeed positive or is mostly mistaken. He could have mistaken imposed
        dignity and brute superiority for proof of wisdom abstract.
         
        Kishore*s 
        perception of the East is also equally indiscriminate and
        lopsided. Take the two prominent corners of Eastern Hemisphere viz.
        China and India. He appears to have reckoned both equal with respect to
        respective march to modernity, weltanschauug (worldview), actual
        self-worth, implementation of personal freedom, capacity to embrace the
        West and multitude of aspects of civilization Kishore Mahbubani so
        ornately spells. He couldn*t be more wrong.
         
        How can he be expected
        to be even marginally right in this comparative study if he doesn*t have
        and doesn*t look for the cardinal/ absolute index of society/ culture/
        civilization? The easiest and the best one probably is the index of
        crime/ immorality. Has he ever put India on crime/ immorality scale? Has
        he ever witnessed/ imagined the ghastliness of the actual Indian social
        scenario? Or, has he again made the mistake of seeing through the warped
        American eye that may discount million socio-cultural deaths of another
        country (third-word country) to capitalize on few conducive/ selected
        politicizable cases of purported/ fictitious *human right violation*
        underscoring a lopsided sense of morality and justice?
         
        Kishore commits the
        double-fault of overestimating classical West/ US and Modern India, the
        two chameleons. This makes his international perspective deficient.

         
        We do appreciate his
        surmises about the foreseeable fall of American pseudo-modernism and
        rise of Asia. But the story that will unfold to vindicate Kishore*s
        surmises is different from the details he conjures up. It is the story
        of the great triangle whose vertices represent centers of global
        civilization of past, present and future.
         
        The past had witnessed
        the greatest socio-cultural polarization in the Eastern Hemisphere, in
        India. The present age is still witnessing the highest global
        polarization in the Western Hemisphere, in US/ West. This flight of
        global center from East to West depicted the rise of the West and the
        decline of the East.
         
        The East-to-West flight
        of global socio-cultural center is about to be reversed in near future.
        Kishore*s words seems to be prophetic up to this point. But what he has
        to see further is that the West-to-East flight of global socio-cultural
        polarity would be consummated in China. And the credit for this historic
        phenomenon would go exclusively to China.
         
        That is not all. The
        saddest part of the futuristic story is that the Titanic will sink prior
        to this stretch of evolution of history, if an averting magic doesn*t
        occur. The doomed ship is India, the second Titanic. And this Titanic,
        even as she arrives at the bottom of the ocean, will still have in her
        coffers the heart (the metaphor to mean genes) of the planet.

         
        How would India be so
        doomed? - That is because of its neo-Indian navigators who still think
        the clean-and-crystalline heaven (iceberg) visible ahead is the
        destination.  
         
        How would China be
        rewarded with such a global glory? - That is because she is the heir
        apparent to pan-Indian socio-cultural legacy, erstwhile global essence,
        because she is thus the inheritor of feline human genes. To realize
        this, you have to look into the transcendental theory of evolution that
        puts civilization as function of national genes and that puts national
        genes as function of metaphysical movements. The time-bomb of Buddhist
        metaphysics have been ticking to conflagrate as the winner genes later
        in China.
         
        What is that actual
        tipping national characteristic that would give China an edge over US/
        West. It is progressive incorporation of higher democracy into national
        constitution. Protraction of disproportionate/ unlimited econo-social
        security is taking epidemic form to gnaw away Western Democracy, the
        iceberg that India wishes to harvest a destination from.
         
        Is Chinese success
        really so succinct? - No. It isn*t. It is about to be on the crossroad
        where it will meet the fatal contingency of choosing between the Kishore
        Mahbubani-spelt sevel pillars of western wisdom with in-built
        retrogrades and civil democracy projected by the theory of absolute
        polity.

        (Bhanu Padmo)
        http://www.bhanupadmo.com

        You may reply this thread upon http://in.groups.yahoo.com/group/greenlogic/%c2%a0
        as well
        or consign a copy to greenlogic@...  
        for extended discussions.

        --- On Mon, 2/18/13, Pat Louise Davies
        <pld@...> wrote:


        From:
        Pat Louise Davies <pld@...>
        Subject: [Wisdom-l]
        Bhanu: Kishore Mahbubani ?
        To: Wisdom-l@yahoogroups.com
        Date:
        Monday, February 18, 2013, 7:01 PM



         


         
         
        Hello Bhanu & Friends,
         
        Since you and others have some interest in
        political philosopy, Bhanu, I am wondering if you are familiar with
        the writings of Kishore Mahbubani?  If so, what are your opinions
        of his ideas?  As you may know, he was the President of the UN
        Security Council 2001-02, and UN Ambassador from Singapore. 
        He was born of Indian parents in an
        impoverished area of Singapore 64 yrs ago.
         
        I heard Kishore speak recently @ Cornell and
        found his ideas about the need for world collaboration interesting; I
        am currently reading 4 of his books.  In his view, the USA's
        tendency to stay stuck focusing on world
        leadership instead of supporting world organizations and other means
        of world collaboration is very problematic & unfortunate for the
        USA now, and going forward.
         
        Kishore's message at the outset of his
        Cornell talk was that there is much pessimism in the West,
        including Europe, whereas many Eastern countries are enjoying much
        rapid successful economic/cultural development as a result of being
        influenced by " The 7 Pillars of Western Wisdom" (his term which
        includes free market, rule of law, etc...) and are optimistic; 
        In his view, the West is currenty moving away from the 7
        pillars. 
         
        Many points of his Cornell talk are laid out in
        his most recent book published in Feb/13.  He discussed
        the 7 pillars in his 2008 book: The
        New Asian Hemisphere.
         
        Your thoughts?
         
        Thanks ~ Namaste,  Pat Louise
         
        ____________________________________________________________________
                 
                                 
                    May our
        efforts benefit

                                  
                   all beings and the
        earth.         

























        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Bhanu Padmo
        Pat, (A delayed reply. And I will not be available at my desk for a week or two now for further replies. Only after I return. Thanks for info in the
        Message 3 of 5 , Feb 28, 2013
        • 0 Attachment
          Pat,
          (A delayed reply. And I will not be available at my desk for a week or two now for further replies. Only after I return. Thanks for info in the attachment.)
          (A Burlesque
          Question)

           

          The
          grotesque daily criminal statistics of India is the answer to your burlesque
          question. If India exceeds US in criminality by, say, hundredfold and China by,
          say, two-hundredfold, won*t that be sufficient in your eyes to qualify India
          for entry into hell !!

           

          When
          we are talking about millenary trend and consequence, doesn*t such a current
          predicament mean premature apocalypse for India?

           

          Think
          of the fortunate deserters of Titanic surviving aboard sea-borne lifeboats and
          witnessing the widening crack in the middle of the ship.  Unless one wants to have the ship sunk, will he/
          she ask this comical question then : Why do you think Titanic is doomed to
          sink?

           

          Pat!
          You may have to update yourself (have Kisore Mahbubani updated as well) on
          worsening ghastliness of public morality in India and extrapolate it to locate
          the approaching Indian apocalypse on time-scale.

           

          Of
          course, for that you have to know the relationship between overall national identity
          and general morality.

           

          (People*s
          Representatives : Disparate Managers and Inbuilt Sovereigns)

          Think
          of a family. It is a family because of the familial hierarchy which is based on
          heredity. Familial hierarchy portends a hereditary/ genetic gradient.

           

          Analogous
          to family is nation which is also bound tightly by a hierarchy. This national
          hierarchy is primarily a psycho-intellectual hierarchy portending an emotive
          gradient. This gradient points upwards to social sovereignty ending at national
          sovereignty.

           

          The
          causal characteristic of this psycho-intellectual gradient is intuitive prowess
          (dream) and emotive sophistication (intellect). So, the fountainhead of a
          nation is the stratum of citizens with supreme (critically-beneficent) minds.

           

          Intelligence
          needs to be defined to make these benedictory minds be indentified as the most
          intelligent.

           

          The
          analogy between nation and family may be recalled to reckon the supreme minds
          as the parents of nation and to detect the nation-wide gradient of dream
          (intuitive prowess) and intellect (emotive sophistication). Thus a nation would
          be complete as a family of intelligent dreamers.

           

          That
          is the definition of a civilized nation whose constitution would at once
          recognize protection and empowerment of the plenary (country-wide) body of
          supreme citizens as the seed of democracy. Thus the constitution of a civilized
          nation would launch a sovereign citizen*s party to initiate democracy.
          Democracy is non-existent till it happens.

           

          Has
          it happened in US? Isn*t it that US Constitution has managed to define for it
          and endow it with only a caretaker/ managerial government (not a sovereign
          government)? Aren*t, in the light of this argument, the elected People*s
          Representatives in US are mere disparate managers (not inbuilt sovereigns, not integrated
          sovereigns, not the fountainhead of national sovereignty)?

           

          (Rooted Power and
          Booty Power)

           

          Haven*t
          we been talking about long-term (say, millenary) trend and consequence of a
          nation? Irreversible morality-rooted power is different from reversible booty
          power. The latter, like its underlying immorality, is transient. History is the
          witness to both types of power. We have to discern one form the other.

           



          (Bhanu Padmo)

          http://www.bhanupadmo.com


          You
          may reply this thread upon http://in.groups.yahoo.com/group/greenlogic/%c2%a0
          as well

          or consign a copy to greenlogic@...   for extended discussions.



          --- On Mon, 2/25/13, Pat Louise Davies <pld@...> wrote:

          From: Pat Louise Davies <pld@...>
          Subject: Re: [Wisdom-l] Questions -- Re: Bhanu: Kishore Mahbubani ?
          To: Wisdom-l@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Monday, February 25, 2013, 7:17 PM
















           









          


           

           
          Hi Bhanu, 
           
           
           
          Ty for you reply;   I have three questions
          below:
           
           
           
          1.   Bhanu, why do you think India is doomed to
          "sink"?    I will keep her in my meditations and
          prayers.
           
           
           
          2.  What do you mean by your sentence below (in
          blue)?  Could you clarify what you mean by "organizing
          on the basis of dream and emotion" into a "country wide and plenary civil
          hierarchy?"  ...maybe giving a simple example on a topic (?) -- TY
          ~
           
           
          BP<<< 
          Has US taken even the
          first step towards organizing own citizens on the basis of dream and emotion
          into a country-wide and plenary civil
          hierarchy?
           
           
          3.  I also have a question about this:
           
          BP <<< Unstoppability of march to power will be
          accompanied by steep moral ascension.    We need not be afraid of the reasonable
          future.
           
          So, why do you think "steep moral ascension" will
          accompany "march to power", Bhanu?  Historically in the human race, immoral aggression seems to have more
          typically accompanied marches to power.
           
           
          Gratefulness ~
          Namaste,
          P    


           
          .         


          ----- Original Message -----

          From: Bhanu Padmo
          To: esotericismspirituality@yahoogroups.com ;
          greenlogic@yahoogroups.com ; TheRampaPath@yahoogroups.com ; seerseeker@yahoogroups.com ; existlist@yahoogroups.com ; TheBecoming@yahoogroups.com ; Wisdom-l@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: 2013-02-24
          13:45
          Subject: Re: [Wisdom-l]
          Questions -- Re: Bhanu: Kishore Mahbubani ?

           






          Hi Pat!
           
          (Sino-American
          Relativism : Issues of National Sovereignty and Human
          Rights)
           
          Let us start with the
          contentious issue of the prospect of Chinese march towards the strongest
          economy.
           
          *National economy*
          without the underlying commensurate *general morality* proves, sooner or
          later, to be brute. *General morality* needs to be transformed into
          *national morality* through a consistent *polity*. *Political morality*
          is the matter of profound reasoning and is materialized through an
          appropriate *political model*.
           
          The primal question
          that a *political model* answers (and implements such an answer) is that
          about the true nature of *national sovereignty* and the formal method of
          creating/ assembling it. The *national constitution* ought to
          incorporate the answer (statement about nature of national sovereignty)
          and the model.
           
          The generic name of
          this model is *democracy*. The actual nature of identified national
          sovereignty is the index of the *native democracy*.
           
          Thus the analysis of
          consequences of *national economy* ought to take into consideration
          respective *political economy* that delineates the nature of identified
          national sovereignty, the nature of constitution with respect to
          incorporation of national sovereignty, the nature of political model
          thereof and the nature of political control over national economy.

           
          Be it China or US, the
          international impact of respective national economy will finally be the
          function of locally conceived and implemented general morality, polity,
          reasonability of political model, nature of national sovereignty and the
          methodology of assembling national sovereignty. The nodal point in this
          sequence is the nature of identified national sovereignty.
           
          Assuming that both
          these nations are not going to change much in near future, we may pull
          out our gamma counter to measure the strength of respective radiations
          in terms of rectitude (democratic values) of respective identified
          national sovereignty. The gamma counter (a contrivance for measuring
          number of gamma rays emanating out of a neighboring radioactive
          substance) is a metaphor for analysis (analytic power) of a nation*s
          physical international effects.
           
          Isn*t it very difficult
          to assess democratic values of a nation from its international physical
          relationships?
           
          It is not so difficult
          if we can appreciate *crime/ immorality/ cruelty statistics* as the
          *cardinal/ absolute index of organized status (community, nation,
          religion etc)*.
           
          While measuring
          democratic values of a national model, we have to resolve its aura into
          two components viz. *sub-frontier aura* (intra-national effect) and
          *trans-frontier aura* (international effect). Accordingly, our survey of
          crime/ immorality/ cruelty would also have two components :
          *sub-frontier survey of national offenses* and *trans-frontier survey of
          national offences*.
           
          *Sub-frontier offenses*
          has two sub-divisions : *public offenses* and *administrative
          punishments*.
           
          Punishment is here seen
          as a form of catalytic cruelty that would deter multi-fold conflagration
          of cruelty in variant forms. Public offense as malevolent cruelty is a
          *positive offense*. Administrative punishment as benevolent cruelty is a
          *negative offense*. To be on the safer side, both *public positive
          offense* and *administrative negative offense* may be seen as human
          rights violations, real or virtual.
           
          Naturally, we are now
          reminded of the notions of *public negative offense* (public benevolent
          cruelty) and *administrative positive offense* (administrative
          malevolent cruelty) as well.
           
          To pass over the
          difficulty of discerning negative offense from positive offense in both
          public and administrative domains, we may think of *integral
          sub-frontier cruelty statistics*. *Integral sub-frontier cruelty* will
          thus be the sum of the contents of all four sections viz. positive and
          negative offenses of both public and administrative domains.
           
          Integral sub-frontier
          cruelty statistics may be taken at least as the gross *index of (working
          of) democratic values* within the frontiers of the nation. To be on the
          safer side, let this statistics depict the *integral human rights
          violation* of the nation.
           
          Would you like to
          assess American and Chinese records of *integral sub-frontier cruelty*
          or *integral sub-frontier human rights violation*?
           
          Shouldn*t we appreciate
          the fact that China has managed to lower the level of public crime/
          offense almost to the ground, leaving not much option before us to be
          influenced by rumors (arising out of intentional diplomatic vitiations
          of isolated/ selected cases)?
           
          Come to the other
          division of crime survey : statistics of trans-frontier crime/
          immorality/ cruelty. xxx
           
          Effects of induced wars
          and imposed international policies originating from American premises
          need to be inspected and assessed thoroughly to come to the unexpected
          final count. Obvious answers to few discreet questions do outline the
          trans-frontier American image. Is America bothered about even simple
          survival of third-world countries if they don*t opt to be subjugated by
          her most abjectly? Does America appreciate unconditional benevolence?
          Does America tolerate other*s sense of independence and
          contentment?
           
          Why have we to seem so
          mean and make such utterances against America when American *general
          morality* is so high? Undeniable is the radical and creative outlook of
          Americans. Unparalleled is their intellectual contribution to mankind.
          Insuperability of their wisdom has been quite appropriately translated
          into insuperability of their physical might. Why have we to seem so mean
          and make such utterances against America then?
           
          The answer to this
          queer question is connoted by these counter questions : Why has then the
          issue of China cropped up so obtrusively? Why did the concern of
          relative deceleration of US/ West (with respect to unstoppably
          accelerating China) become so imminent so soon? How could a fallen and
          ailing China come round to emulate US/ West in just six decades of
          time?
           
          All these connote the
          tipping point abut descent and ascent of nations. We have indicated
          earlier at the very beginning of this discussion the incidence of this
          tipping point in the nature of identified national sovereignty and the
          commensurate political model and the ensuing degree of native democracy.
          That is it.
           
          Extant great *general
          morality-creativity* of US/ West would have to be transformed into
          respective *national-political morality-creativity* through a consistent
          *polity* equipped with an appropriate *political model*. Without a womb,
          the body would have to be infertile. American general morality lacks the
          womb to generate great (benign) global consequences. What is being
          projected currently as American/ Western global impact may not be as
          great, as benign.
          The womb is the
          commensurate *political model* that would uphold great democratic values
          through better appreciation of national sovereignty. What is being
          projected currently as American/ Western democratic values may not be as
          great.
           
          So everything boils
          down to the definition of national sovereignty. This definition could
          generate the absolute/ ideal polity, the absolute/ ideal democracy.

           
          American political
          system lacks the requisite concern about that definition and model. That
          is how American *national-political morality* stands contrary to
          American *general morality*. That is how American image is so ambiguous,
          so anomalous. That is how American government and American people are
          two separate/ different/ incommensurable entities. America seem to be
          suffering from an excruciating *political dualism*.
           
          If not solved in time,
          this political dualism will make extant American glory fade. It will
          become a burden to itself and to the world. It will bring about the
          great decline of the West. We are talking about the millenary events.

           
          The decline is to be
          understood in dynamic/ relative view. The relative decline with respect
          to China is the context. There are already indications of irreversible
          relative deceleration of America/ West or irreversible relative
          acceleration of China.
           
          The *theory of
          universal national sovereignty and absolute polity* would apply to all
          countries, big or small, old or new, US or China or India, alike. The
          relative progression of China and the relative recession of US could be
          explained by the same theory. If US is losing its hold on own prospects
          by way of being a mere bystander to own worsening political dualism,
          then China would have to be deemed to be tightening its hold on own
          prospects by way of solving own political dualism discreetly and
          progressively.
           
          If we take *political
          model* and the ensuing *national-political morality-creativity* as the
          cause and the *general morality-creativity* as the consequence, the
          present scenario for US and China may be delineated as follows : US may
          be deemed to have currently a higher general morality-creativity and
          lesser national-political morality-creativity when China may be deemed
          to have currently a lower general morality-creativity and higher
          national-political morality-creativity. Since, national-political
          morality-creativity is *causal* with respect to shaping of general
          morality-creativity, edging of China may be ascribed to the higher
          degree of the causal agency (higher political morality) it has managed
          to procure and wield.
           
          Reckoning the
          *political morality* of a country isn*t easy. A better cultural legacy
          or a persuasive propaganda may cause the current political morality seem
          higher. US enjoys such a position and has managed to be popular as a
          high democracy. This assumption has made US political system seem
          colorful and benign. To know whether it is truly so, we shall have to
          put her to the critical test. The critical test is the nature of her
          conviction about *national sovereignty*.
           
          Is the plenary body of
          best US citizens universally and eternally empowered by the US
          Constitution to integratedly rule that country at every level by way of
          nationalizing an evolving wisdom and jurisprudence (to be
          internationalized by global consensus later)? Has US contemplated over
          such a possibility? Has US taken even the first step towards organizing
          own citizens on the basis of dream and emotion into a country-wide and
          plenary civil hierarchy?
           
          Has China contemplated
          over such a possibility in own case and acted upon such
          contemplations?
           
          Benignancy or
          malignancy of a powerful national economy will be the function of the
          degree of conformity to this seminal political/ constitutional morality.
          Baseless apprehension about Sino-American relativism doesn*t matter.
          Primacy of definition of national sovereignty and the ensuing theory of
          absolute polity is the guiding light.
           
          Unstoppability of march
          to power will be accompanied by steep moral ascension. We need not be
          afraid of the reasonable future.

          (Bhanu Padmo)
          http://www.bhanupadmo.com

          You may reply this thread upon http://in.groups.yahoo.com/group/greenlogic/%c2%a0
          as well
          or consign a copy to greenlogic@...  
          for extended discussions.

          --- On Fri, 2/22/13, Pat Louise Davies
          <pld@...> wrote:


          From:
          Pat Louise Davies <pld@...>
          Subject: [Wisdom-l]
          Questions -- Re: Bhanu: Kishore Mahbubani ?
          To:
          esotericismspirituality@yahoogroups.com, greenlogic@yahoogroups.com,
          TheRampaPath@yahoogroups.com, seerseeker@yahoogroups.com,
          existlist@yahoogroups.com, TheBecoming@yahoogroups.com,
          Wisdom-l@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Friday, February 22, 2013, 8:34
          PM



           

          
           

          Bhanu,
           
          Thanks much for your
          comments about Kishore Mahbubani.  I will be chewing on
          them.  Meanwhile, I have a few immediate questions below,
          and a Kishorean quote...
           

          re:
          BP <<< The East-to-West flight of global
          socio-cultural center is about to be reversed in near future.
          Kishore*s words seems to be prophetic up to this point. But what he
          has to see further is that the West-to-East flight of global
          socio-cultural polarity would be consummated in China. And the credit
          for this historic phenomenon would go exclusively to China.

           
          PL >  Qs:
           
          "Credit" by whom?  -- What do you mean by "credit for this historic phenomenon would go
          exclusively to China"? 
           
          In his talk Kishore conveyed his
          perception that China will probably become the most
          powerful economy within approx the next decade.  He also
          stated, as he also does in his Feb 2013 book (The Great
          Convergence), that China will
          eventually become more democratic.  At his Cornell talk, Kishore
          said that China has learned from Russia's bad experience
          of shifting towards
          democracy too quickly;--- that
          economic depression would result, as it did with Russia.  He
          believes that there is currently a very gradual transition towards
          democracy underway in
          China.  
          He gave the example of travel by
          Chinese citizens out and then back
          into China, for multi-year durations,
          as a example of this transition. 
           
          Do you agree with any
          of this?
           
          I realize that those of us who personally
          know victims of Chinese oppression/violence find the prospect of a more powerful China
          challenging;  including the challenge of having any faith
          that Chinese political evoluton could be positive re: human
          rights;  That said, here is a quote from
          Convergence:
           
          Nevertheless, a more democratic China
          will emerge.  The ultimate political destination for China is not
          in doubt.  It will be an unavoidable choice, especially once
          China has developed the largest middle class in the world.  The
          only question is whether America or any other power will ...

          interfer(e) with China's domestic processes.  The temptation to
          interfere is strong in America. 
          A wiser course is to
          allow China to
          develop at its own pace. 
          By not crossing the red line in this area, America would also help to preserve geopolitical
          stability.
                 
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
              Convergence, K-Mahbubani,
          p.157.
           
          Any thoughts?
           
          re:
          BP>>> That is not all. The saddest part
          of the futuristic story is that the Titanic will sink prior to this
          stretch of evolution of history, if an averting magic doesn*t occur.
          The doomed ship is India, the second Titanic. And this Titanic, even
          as she arrives at the bottom of the ocean, will still have in her
          coffers the heart (the metaphor to mean genes) of the planet.

           
          PL >
          Qs
          What is the first "Titanic"?......USA?  And could you
          say more about what you mean by the 2nd Titanic
          (India) "will still have
          in her coffers the heart (the metaphor to mean genes) of the
          planet"?
          I think I know what you mean, but not
          sure....
           
           
          In general, what do you imagine the world, with China as the most powerful
          economy,
          will be like?
           
           
          Gratitude, Bhanu.

           
          Namaste,

          Pat  :
          )
          ___________________________________________
          __________________________________________________
           
                       
                                   
          May our efforts benefit

                                   
          all beings and the earth
                   


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Bhanu Padmo

          To: Wisdom-l@yahoogroups.com
          ; TheBecoming@yahoogroups.com
          ; existlist@yahoogroups.com
          ; seerseeker@yahoogroups.com
          ; TheRampaPath@yahoogroups.com
          ; greenlogic@yahoogroups.com
          ; esotericismspirituality@yahoogroups.com

          Sent: 2013-02-22 07:22
          Subject: Re: [Wisdom-l] Bhanu:
          Kishore Mahbubani ?

           






          My Dear Pat, Namaste.
           
          (The Story of Second
          Titanic)
           
          I
          am reminded of a joke when one talks about Kishore Mahbubani*s
          recognition of western worth in such terms as *Seven Pillars
          of Western Wisdom* (viz. Free-market economics, Science and
          Technology, Meritocracy, Pragmatism, Culture of Peace, Rule of
          Law, Education).
           
          The joke is this. You (a woman) meet
          somebody (another woman) for whom you develop soon a liking
          for reasons unknown to you and inquire of her some personal
          details. Your fondness for this person ascends as you listen
          to attractive self-descriptions whose plausibility you have
          already assumed. How nice it was to know that this potential
          friend was an artist, a singer, an engineer, a social worker
          and so on! However, she would like to whisper the last point
          about her into your ear, feeling a bit coy over the fact that
          you wouldn*t probably like the last characteristic. And she
          finally tells you that she is in the grip of the habit of
          lying!!
           
          Naturally, you would now be ashamed of
          your altruism of believing the woman as this moral
          retrogression was enough to annul all of her purported
          positive features. The last personal feature whispered into
          your ears is indeed the *absolute retrograde*.
           
          Similarly, what if one or more
          Kishorean Pillars of purported Western Wisdom happens to be a
          socio-culture retrograde? An absolute socio-cultural
          retrograde?
           
          If you take a close look at these
          seven pillars of wisdom, you find each one of them to be a
          composite agent of civilization, not a singular/ elementary
          one. These composites could be riddled with deficiency and
          redundancy.
           
          For example, free market economics can
          not be deemed to be benign at all if it is to implicitly
          acknowledge the in-built vice of encouraging unlimited
          superfluity of choices about the most redundant material
          requirement - at the cost of longevity of our planet (that is
          being deemed to cradle the peak evolution of
          universe).
           
          Science and technology isn*t a lay
          option available unconditionally without a socio-cultural
          prelude and moral-instinctive pre-condition.
           
          An inadequately conceived meritocracy
          runs the risk of being overwhelmed by snobbish vagary of
          education.
           
          Pragmatism contaminated with conceit
          could, if not rectified in time, turn into virtual cannibalism
          at some stage.
           
          Rule of law could turn into a piece of
          deceptive rhetoric if promulgation of law as an integral part
          of national sovereignty was to be devoid of the concern of
          nationalizing wisdom and jurisprudence.
           
          Culture of peace could be a
          redundantly altruist notion if it doesn*t consider any
          objective higher than mere peaceful coexistence.
           
          These seven composite agents of
          civilization need to be resolved into their elementary
          components firstly and then, the retrograde components must be
          isolated and quarantined as germs of apocalypse. The
          identities of individual agents need to be expressed as
          permutation-combination of their elements and any agent with
          in-built retrograde element is to be stricken off.
           
           
          How many of these purported pillars of
          western wisdom will survive this ingenious intellectual
          operation to assign a semblance of dignity and ascribe a
          semblance of superiority to US/ West? In other words, Kishore
          needs to brace up to clear own vision. Because this
          intellectual exercise will also clarify if Kishore-perceived
          American-Western wisdom and image is indeed positive or is
          mostly mistaken. He could have mistaken imposed dignity and
          brute superiority for proof of wisdom abstract.
           
          Kishore*s 
          perception of the East is also equally indiscriminate
          and lopsided. Take the two prominent corners of Eastern
          Hemisphere viz. China and India. He appears to have reckoned
          both equal with respect to respective march to modernity,
          weltanschauug (worldview), actual self-worth, implementation
          of personal freedom, capacity to embrace the West and
          multitude of aspects of civilization Kishore Mahbubani so
          ornately spells. He couldn*t be more wrong.
           
          How can he be expected to be even
          marginally right in this comparative study if he doesn*t have
          and doesn*t look for the cardinal/ absolute index of society/
          culture/ civilization? The easiest and the best one probably
          is the index of crime/ immorality. Has he ever put India on
          crime/ immorality scale? Has he ever witnessed/ imagined the
          ghastliness of the actual Indian social scenario? Or, has he
          again made the mistake of seeing through the warped American
          eye that may discount million socio-cultural deaths of another
          country (third-word country) to capitalize on few conducive/
          selected politicizable cases of purported/ fictitious *human
          right violation* underscoring a lopsided sense of morality and
          justice?
           
          Kishore commits the double-fault of
          overestimating classical West/ US and Modern India, the two
          chameleons. This makes his international perspective
          deficient.
           
          We do appreciate his surmises about
          the foreseeable fall of American pseudo-modernism and rise of
          Asia. But the story that will unfold to vindicate Kishore*s
          surmises is different from the details he conjures up. It is
          the story of the great triangle whose vertices represent
          centers of global civilization of past, present and
          future.
           
          The past had witnessed the greatest
          socio-cultural polarization in the Eastern Hemisphere, in
          India. The present age is still witnessing the highest global
          polarization in the Western Hemisphere, in US/ West. This
          flight of global center from East to West depicted the rise of
          the West and the decline of the East.
           
          The East-to-West flight of global
          socio-cultural center is about to be reversed in near future.
          Kishore*s words seems to be prophetic up to this point. But
          what he has to see further is that the West-to-East flight of
          global socio-cultural polarity would be consummated in China.
          And the credit for this historic phenomenon would go
          exclusively to China.
           
          That is not all. The saddest part of
          the futuristic story is that the Titanic will sink prior to
          this stretch of evolution of history, if an averting magic
          doesn*t occur. The doomed ship is India, the second Titanic.
          And this Titanic, even as she arrives at the bottom of the
          ocean, will still have in her coffers the heart (the metaphor
          to mean genes) of the planet.
           
          How would India be so doomed? - That
          is because of its neo-Indian navigators who still think the
          clean-and-crystalline heaven (iceberg) visible ahead is the
          destination.  
           
          How would China be rewarded with such
          a global glory? - That is because she is the heir apparent to
          pan-Indian socio-cultural legacy, erstwhile global essence,
          because she is thus the inheritor of feline human genes. To
          realize this, you have to look into the transcendental theory
          of evolution that puts civilization as function of national
          genes and that puts national genes as function of metaphysical
          movements. The time-bomb of Buddhist metaphysics have been
          ticking to conflagrate as the winner genes later in
          China.
           
          What is that actual tipping national
          characteristic that would give China an edge over US/ West. It
          is progressive incorporation of higher democracy into national
          constitution. Protraction of disproportionate/ unlimited
          econo-social security is taking epidemic form to gnaw away
          Western Democracy, the iceberg that India wishes to harvest a
          destination from.
           
          Is Chinese success really so succinct?
          - No. It isn*t. It is about to be on the crossroad where it
          will meet the fatal contingency of choosing between the
          Kishore Mahbubani-spelt sevel pillars of western wisdom with
          in-built retrogrades and civil democracy projected by the
          theory of absolute polity.

          (Bhanu Padmo)
          http://www.bhanupadmo.com
          You may reply this thread
          upon http://in.groups.yahoo.com/group/greenlogic/%c2%a0
          as well
          or consign a copy to greenlogic@...  
          for extended discussions.

          --- On Mon,
          2/18/13, Pat Louise Davies <pld@...>
          wrote:


          From: Pat
          Louise Davies <pld@...>
          Subject:
          [Wisdom-l] Bhanu: Kishore Mahbubani ?
          To:
          Wisdom-l@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Monday, February 18, 2013,
          7:01 PM



           


           
           
          Hello Bhanu &
          Friends,
           
          Since you and others have some
          interest in political philosopy, Bhanu, I am wondering if
          you are familiar with the writings of Kishore
          Mahbubani?  If so, what are your opinions of his
          ideas?  As you may know, he was the President of the UN
          Security Council 2001-02, and UN Ambassador from
          Singapore.  He was born of
          Indian parents in an impoverished area of Singapore 64 yrs
          ago.
           
          I heard Kishore speak recently @
          Cornell and found his ideas about the need for world
          collaboration interesting; I am currently reading 4 of his
          books.  In his view, the USA's tendency to stay
          stuck focusing on world
          leadership instead of supporting world organizations and
          other means of world collaboration is very problematic &
          unfortunate for the USA now, and going forward.
           
          Kishore's message at the outset
          of his Cornell talk was that there is much pessimism in
          the West, including Europe, whereas many Eastern countries
          are enjoying much rapid successful economic/cultural
          development as a result of being influenced by " The 7
          Pillars of Western Wisdom" (his term which includes free
          market, rule of law, etc...) and are optimistic;  In
          his view, the West is currenty moving away from the 7
          pillars. 
           
          Many points of his Cornell talk are
          laid out in his most recent book published in Feb/13. 
          He discussed the 7 pillars in
          his 2008 book: The New Asian
          Hemisphere.
           
          Your thoughts?
           
          Thanks ~ Namaste,  Pat
          Louise
           
          ____________________________________________________________________
                   
                                   
                      May
          our efforts benefit

                                    
                     all
          beings and the
          earth.         

























          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • existlist
          Bhanu, Why not talk to us instead of forwarding emails from other groups? They are difficult to follow. I ve tried. h.
          Message 4 of 5 , Feb 28, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
            Bhanu,
            Why not talk to us instead of forwarding emails from other groups? They are difficult to follow. I've tried.

            h.
          • Bhanu Padmo
            hermitcrab, OK, I will surely talk to you (existlist members). The difficulty, I presume, may persist however. That is because of the aspect. The forwarded
            Message 5 of 5 , Mar 12, 2013
            • 0 Attachment
              hermitcrab,

              OK, I will surely talk to you (existlist members). The difficulty, I presume, may persist however. That is because of the aspect.

              The forwarded posts, if you have noticed, were essays dealing with a theme then and there. No short chats.

              Next intermittent posts too, though may be directed to one of you, will be short essays. Because of my inability to be present at the internet desk for protracted/ continuous whiles, I won*t be really able to *chat* with you all. You may have to bear with my rather queer procedure.

              (Bhanu)

              --- On Fri, 3/1/13, existlist <hermitcrab65@...> wrote:

              From: existlist <hermitcrab65@...>
              Subject: [existlist] [Wisdom-l] Questions -- Re: Bhanu: Kishore Mahbubani ?
              To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Friday, March 1, 2013, 12:50 AM
















               









              Bhanu,

              Why not talk to us instead of forwarding emails from other groups? They are difficult to follow. I've tried.



              h.



























              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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