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Re: [existlist] Re: Salvation or Deliverance

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  • eduardathome
    I understand that it is desirable to have self-control instead of just following wherever our gratification of the sensory may lead us. I also understand that
    Message 1 of 19 , Feb 13 8:30 AM
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      I understand that it is desirable to have self-control instead of just
      following wherever our gratification of the sensory may lead us. I also
      understand that with self-control comes a certain peace for reason that one
      can, or thinks they are able, to see the bigger picture.

      What is not understandable is the idea of an evolution to the divine. Or as
      you have it here as a movement beyond life to a heaven, to Nirvana, and then
      merging in the Brahman. Why?? Why should such a process exist?? As
      opposed to humans just dying and their bodies melting back into the
      biosphere.

      I can, however, appreciate the idea. It has a similarity to the Kingdom of
      Heaven in Christianity.

      If one is to assume that this universe arose out of the Big Bang and will
      eventually return in the Big Crunch or the Big Slap [depending what
      cosmology one believes in], why should there also arise this process that
      takes humans beyond the wall of death?? Why should there be a Brahman??
      What does the Brahman do to justify its existence in the universe besides
      collecting dead humans?? I could ask the same of Christians as to why there
      should be a heaven in which the souls of dead humans are stored?

      eduard

      -----Original Message-----
      From: devindersingh
      Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:05 PM
      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [existlist] Re: Salvation or Deliverance

      THERE is no doubt that Europe knows very well the art of life which in our
      country is totally lacking. In the East it is only Japan that knows it and
      knows it well enough. Our country on the whole and most of the East is at
      present steeped in inertia.
      You have asked me the exact meaning of control of the senses and what is its
      necessity in life. For, in India we have held up this ideal on an elaborate
      scale, but to what effect? Europe cares little for it, yet she rules the
      world.
      Firstly, whether self-control is necessary or not depends on the nature of
      our ideal. Self-control is only a particular means to a particular end. If
      the meaning of life is to live the life of nature, to possess power and
      influence – if the aim of life is to live in accordance with its impulses,
      then the question of self-control can never arise. In such a case the
      indulgence of the senses is the motive force.
      There are two approaches to life: one is to follow the lead of the senses,
      to enrich life as much as possible by giving them full play and acquiring
      means for their satisfaction; the other is to move away from their range to
      a region inward or upward. Those who have taken to this path are unanimous
      that this path leads to the realm of supreme Peace, Light and Truth and that
      in fact the real character of life, its true fulfilment lie in this realm.
      In their view the sense-world is a world of deformations, narrow and full of
      impurities. Its material resources, however rich and vast, are really worth
      little. But man has also his inner senses which can help him to return to
      his home in the infinite Vast as a child of Immortality. This is the real
      sense of self-mastery: instead of swimming down the sense-current, one must
      swim back in the opposite direction. Instead of slipping down from the
      source of life one has to climb up into it.
      You may ask: to what good? Suppose, one goes beyond the sphere of life to
      Vaikuntha, to Heaven, attains Nirvana and gets merged in the Brahman; in
      that case life is lost. And it is really what has happened in India. There
      has been no dearth of saints, seers and Avatars. But they live in their own
      worlds. The dwellers on our realistic plane are poor, distressed and
      miserable. True, there is a class of men who are not in the least perturbed
      at this state of things. Time was when from the mouth of a daughter of India
      rose the ringing voice:

      "Of what use to me are the things that cannot make me immortal?"

      Of course, there is no hard arid fast rule that there must be a barrier
      between life and beyond-life, between self-restraint and self-indulgence. A
      synthesis between the two may be difficult, but not impossible. Indeed, it
      was in India again that there developed such lines of synthetic sadhana.
      Rather it was Europe that gave evidence of this conflict and duality much
      more than India. We may remember the motto: "Render unto Caesar what is
      Caesar's, etc." By pointing to the path of self-restraint Christianity holds
      that it leads to the Kingdom of Christ and those who would remain chained
      down to their senses will remain in their low, unrefined state of nature. In
      Europe this conflict has led to two extremes. Self-restraint in Christianity
      has become self-mortification: but, on the other hand, when Europeans do not
      think it harmful to give a long rope to the senses, they have gone to the
      excess of unbridled license. In India there has been an attempt at a
      synthesis of these two aspects of life. Worldly life was taken as a
      preparation for or as a stepping-stone to the world beyond. So
      self-restraint was given a place not only in the sphere of sadhana for
      liberation, but also in the field of enjoyment. Hence we see in India as
      much preponderance of sattwic qualities as we see in Europe preponderance of
      rajasic dynamism. No doubt, the sattwic state easily lapses into the inertia
      of tamas. As a matter of fact, such has been the case in India. But rajas
      also meets the same end. The one slowly slides to extinction; the other
      shoots up like a rocket and falls like a burnt stick. Thus both suffer the
      same fate.
      In general, life is the play-field of the senses. If self-control implies
      moving away from the senses, then it is not possible for it to have a place
      in life. But self-control may mean keeping the senses under control, under a
      system of rule and discipline. This is the popular sense of self-control: it
      is a graded withdrawal, a first step towards detachment. This is also how it
      developed in India. But, as a matter of fact, this popular approach to
      self-control is not India's speciality alone. Europe has given it a
      recognised place, not only in the Christian religious life but in her
      worldly life too. But it will not do to forget that the untrammelled freedom
      of the senses and their unbridled license have been accepted as an ideal
      specially in modern times, and it is confined to a particular community.
      What they are now attempting to reject as a bourgeois trait was one day an
      aid in the building up of the Euorpean society. To be sure, Europe was not
      so inclined towards detachment as India. Europe has gone in for the
      cultivation of the senses, but that does not mean that she has been sticking
      to an excessive and disorderly play of the senses. Neither Byron nor Oscar
      Wilde is the ultimate ideal of Europe. When the famous novelist Balzac used
      to sit down to write he would do so in a lonely place in a monk's tunic in
      order to help his one-pointed concentration. Napoleon, Caesar and Alexander
      were no helpless slaves of their senses. In fact, no country or race can
      build its greatness except on the foundation of self-control. It is not that
      self-control must necessarily be self-mortification. There can be a via
      media, and in ordinary life this is a necessity. Self-indulgence is the
      debit side. True, this side of Europe is much to the fore, but that leads
      one to think that she is living on her old capital, and it is not long
      before her capital runs short. The root of the capital is self-restraint,
      and it is the credit side, the side of accumulated power.
      It may certainly be that the social, moral and other kinds of injunctions
      regarding control of the senses do not strictly apply any more to our modern
      life. Man's consciousness demands a wider and more liberal existence. Not a
      religion of mental conventions but a universal one founded on truth is what
      he wants. But that is altogether another matter. This problem and its
      solution will lead us into deeper waters. Hence we have to stop here.
      [http://sriaurobindoashram.com/Content.aspx?ContentURL=_StaticContent/SriAurobindoAshram/-09%20E-Library/-03%20Disciples/Nolini%20Kanta%20Gupta/Volume-7/-45_Life%20and%20Self%20Control.htm]
      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
      >
      > Yep ... and in India you have gang rapes in late night buses. The whole
      > country had to be divided because you could not live with each other. You
      > have a segment of society that are designated as untouchable, albeit you
      > are
      > trying to change that. I don't think that India has anything to teach the
      > West. Which isn't to suggest that the West is in much good shape either
      > with morality and such. But if you want to get some message out, it would
      > be nice if you could put it in a context and with phrasing that is
      > understandable, regardless of the fact that you "live" with this
      > knowledge.
      >
      > eduard
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: devindersingh
      > Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 5:56 AM
      > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [existlist] Re: Salvation or Deliverance
      >
      > Eduard,
      > In India we live with this knowledge...The water Buffalo loves to wallow
      > in
      > the mud. We let it revel.
      >
      > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" wrote:
      >
      > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Say, what???
      > > >Eduard, this the sort of gibberish that we will get from this guy. It
      > > >ia
      > > >about as relevant to modernism as is the news about the pope. These
      > > >throwbacks to religion will just fade. Now most of the catholics are
      > > >in
      > > >the poor ,southern hemisphere. I think the buddists will be run over by
      > > >the more agressive Islamists or the Chinese Communists. At any rate it
      > > >will take centuries and we would do better to ignore them and tend to
      > > >the business of northern man. Ignore is the operant word as trying to
      > > >deal with religous fanatics just does not pay off. Set them against
      > > >themselves and go about building a better world here in our homes.
      > > >The
      > > >islamists Hindus and Chinese are wildly over breed and will kill each
      > > >other for food and fuel. Our populations are under control and our food
      > > >and energy needs are being met. Let them deal with each other and we
      > > >will
      > > >deal with them only at a profit. Listening to their ancient and losing
      > > >ideas is only a waste of time. Bill




      ------------------------------------

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    • eduardathome
      In your copy/paste you omitted the important starting sentence of .... ONE has forgotten. From the fact of separation from Sat-Chit-Ananda comes forgetfulness
      Message 2 of 19 , Feb 13 8:46 AM
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        In your copy/paste you omitted the important starting sentence of ....

        "ONE has forgotten. From the fact of separation from Sat-Chit-Ananda comes
        forgetfulness of what one is. "

        Actually, this whole exercise is pointless. All you are doing is to do a
        search on the Sri Aurobindo Ashram site and the pasting the answer on
        Existlist. It's pointless, since I could do the same. You are not
        answering my questions. There is no discussion here.

        eduard

        -----Original Message-----
        From: devindersingh
        Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 10:04 PM
        To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [existlist] Re: Salvation or Deliverance

        You believe you are, does not matter what, a boy, a girl, a man, a woman, a
        dog, a horse, anything: a stone, the sea or the sun. You think you are all
        that, instead of thinking that you are the One Divine. Indeed, if you had
        continued to think that you are the One Divine, there would have been no
        universe at all. The phenomenon of separation seems to have been
        indispensable, otherwise it would have remained always as it was.
        But once the curve has been followed up and the Unity re-established, having
        profited by the multiplicity and division, the Unity found is of a higher
        quality: a Unity that knows itself, instead of a unity that does not know
        itself, for there is nothing else there which knows the other. Where the
        Unity is absolute, who or what can know the Unity? Hence the need of the
        appearance of something which is not that, in order to know what it is.
        The original Will was towards forming individual beings that would be
        capable of becoming conscious again of their origin, although the procedure
        of individualisation compelled the individual to feel itself separate in
        order to be an individual. And the very moment it is separated, it is cut
        off from the original Consciousness, at least apparently, and falls into
        inconscience, for the only thing that is the Life of life is the Origin.
        It is this inconscience that brings it about that you are not aware any
        longer of the Truth of your being. The secret of all deformation in the
        world is this inconscience which has been produced by the fact of separation
        from the Origin. And that explains why there are ugliness, wickedness,
        illness, suffering and death. It is because of this inconscience that
        although the Origin is there, it cannot manifest itself. It is there, that
        is why the world exists, but it is deformed in its expression, because it
        manifests itself through inconscience, ignorance and obscurity.
        The only way to set everything right is to be conscious again and it is very
        simple.
        You are That, you are in That.
        To make you understand more easily, I may say, That is within us, That is
        part of our consciousness somewhere. Otherwise we would never be able to be
        conscious of it. If we did not carry the Divine within ourselves, in the
        essence of our being, we would never be aware of Him, it would be an
        impossible task.
        There is only one thing to be found, not two.
        If one goes round long enough one must come back to the same point. And once
        you come back, you have the impression that there was never anything to find
        outside. Yes, it is like that, there is nothing to find outside yourself.
        [http://sriaurobindoashram.com/Content.aspx?ContentURL=_StaticContent/SriAurobindoAshram/-09%20E-Library/-03%20Disciples/Nolini%20Kanta%20Gupta/Volume-4/-047_The%20Origin.htm]
        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
        >
        > Your statements here are most difficult to follow.
        >
        > First you say that there is "severe collectivism", then the birth of
        > intransigent individualism. The pendulum swings. So you end up with the
        > "herd instinct" which I suppose is back to "severe collectivism".
        >
        > Human society is not that simplistic. You would have to ignore some
        > historical figures [depending upon what you mean by "past ages] who were
        > individualists. You would also have to ignore religions which are
        > collective and continue to be.
        >
        > Then you totally lost me with, "... the demand of the individual soul to
        > unite with the individual soul, ...". How can a soul [assuming that such
        > actually exists] demand to be united with itself?? Why should it make
        > such
        > a demand??
        >
        > eduard

        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: devindersingh
        > Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 6:15 AM
        > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [existlist] Re: Salvation or Deliverance
        >
        > The past ages of society were characterised more or less by a severe
        > collectivism. In ancient Greece, more so in Sparta and in Rome, the
        > individual had, properly speaking, no separate existence of his own; he
        > was
        > merged in the State or Nation. The individual was considered only as a
        > limb
        > of the collective being, had to live and labour for the common weal. The
        > value attached to each person was strictly in reference to the output that
        > the group to which he belonged received from him. Apart from this service
        > for the general unit-the body politic-any personal endeavour and
        > achievement, if not absolutely discouraged and repressed, was given a very
        > secondary place of merit.
        > The individual has his own law and urge of being and his own secret
        > godhead.
        > The collective godhead derides the individual godhead at its peril. The
        > first movement of the reaction, how­ever, was a run to the other
        > extremity;
        > a stern collectivism gave birth to an intransigent individualism. The
        > individual is sacred and inviolable, cost what it may. It does not matter
        > what sort of individuality one seeks, it is enough if the thing is there.
        > So
        > the doctrine of individualism has come to set a premium on egoism and on
        > forces that are disruptive of all social bonds. Each and every individual
        > has the inherent right, which is also a duty, to follow his own impetus
        > and
        > impulse. Society is nothing but the battle ground for competing
        > indi­vidualities â€" the strongest survive and the weakest go to the
        > wall.
        > Association and co-operation are instruments that the individual may use
        > and
        > utilise for his own growth and development but in the main they act as
        > deterrents rather than as aids to the expression and expansion of his
        > characteristic being. In reality, however, if we probe sufficiently deep
        > into the matter we find that there is no such thing as corporate life and
        > activity; what appears as such is only a camouflage for rigorous
        > competition; at the best, there maybe only an offensive and defensive
        > alliance-humanity fights against nature, and within humanity itself group
        > fights against group and in the last analysis, within the group, the
        > individual fights against the individual. This is the ultimate Law-the
        > Dharma of creation.
        > Now, what such an uncompromising individualism fails to recognise is that
        > individuality and ego are not the same thing, that the individual may have
        > his individuality intact and entire and yet sacrifice his ego, that the
        > soul
        > of man is a much greater thing than his vital being. It is simply ignoring
        > the fact and denying the truth to say that man is only a fighting animal
        > and
        > not a loving god, that the self within the individual realises itself only
        > through competition and not co-operation. It is an error to conceive of
        > society as a mere parallelogram of forces, to suppose that it has risen
        > simply out of the struggle of individual interests and continues to remain
        > by that struggle. Struggle is only one aspect of the thing, a particular
        > form at a particular stage, a temporary manifestation due to a particular
        > system and a particular habit and training. It would be nearer the truth
        > to
        > say that society came into being with the demand of the individual soul to
        > unite with the individual soul, with the stress of an Over-soul to express
        > itself in a multitude of forms, diverse yet linked together and organised
        > in
        > perfect harmony. Only, the stress for union manifested itself first on the
        > material plane as struggle: but this is meant to be corrected and
        > transcended and is being continually corrected and transcended by a secret
        > harmony, a real commonality and brotherhood and unity. The individual is
        > not
        > so self-centred as the individualists make him to be, his individuality
        > has
        > a much vaster orbit and fulfils itself only by fulfilling others. The
        > scientists have begun to discover other instincts in man than those of
        > struggle and competition; they now place at the origin of social grouping
        > an
        > instinct which they name the herd-instinct: but this is only a formulation
        > in lower terms, a translation on the vital plane of a higher truth and
        > reality-the fundamental oneness and accord of individuals and their
        > spiritual impulsion to unite.
        > [http://sriaurobindoashram.com/Content.aspx?ContentURL=_StaticContent/SriAurobindoAshram/-09%20E-Library/-03%20Disciples/Nolini%20Kanta%20Gupta/Volume-1/-06_On%20Communism.html]
        > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "devindersingh" wrote:
        > >
        > > Eduard,
        > > In India we live with this knowledge...The water Buffalo loves to wallow
        > > in the mud. We let it revel.
        > >
        > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" wrote:
        > >
        > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > Say, what???
        > > > >Eduard, this the sort of gibberish that we will get from this guy. It
        > > > >ia about as relevant to modernism as is the news about the pope.
        > > > >These
        > > > >throwbacks to religion will just fade. Now most of the catholics are
        > > > >in the poor ,southern hemisphere. I think the buddists will be run
        > > > >over
        > > > >by the more agressive Islamists or the Chinese Communists. At any
        > > > >rate
        > > > >it will take centuries and we would do better to ignore them and
        > > > >tend
        > > > >to the business of northern man. Ignore is the operant word as
        > > > >trying
        > > > >to deal with religous fanatics just does not pay off. Set them
        > > > >against
        > > > >themselves and go about building a better world here in our homes.
        > > > >The islamists Hindus and Chinese are wildly over breed and will
        > > > >kill
        > > > >each other for food and fuel. Our populations are under control and
        > > > >our
        > > > >food and energy needs are being met. Let them deal with each other
        > > > >and
        > > > >we will deal with them only at a profit. Listening to their ancient
        > > > >and losing ideas is only a waste of time. Bill



        ------------------------------------

        Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining nothing!

        Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
      • devindersingh
        Oh! civilisation. Polite conversations, Following gang-bangs!
        Message 3 of 19 , Feb 13 6:37 PM
        • 0 Attachment
          Oh! civilisation.
          Polite conversations,
          Following gang-bangs!

          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
          >
          > In your copy/paste you omitted the important starting sentence of ....
          >
          > "ONE has forgotten. From the fact of separation from Sat-Chit-Ananda comes
          > forgetfulness of what one is. "
          >
          > Actually, this whole exercise is pointless. All you are doing is to do a
          > search on the Sri Aurobindo Ashram site and the pasting the answer on
          > Existlist. It's pointless, since I could do the same. You are not
          > answering my questions. There is no discussion here.
          >
          > eduard
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: devindersingh
          > Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 10:04 PM
          > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [existlist] Re: Salvation or Deliverance
          >
          > You believe you are, does not matter what, a boy, a girl, a man, a woman, a
          > dog, a horse, anything: a stone, the sea or the sun. You think you are all
          > that, instead of thinking that you are the One Divine. Indeed, if you had
          > continued to think that you are the One Divine, there would have been no
          > universe at all. The phenomenon of separation seems to have been
          > indispensable, otherwise it would have remained always as it was.
          > But once the curve has been followed up and the Unity re-established, having
          > profited by the multiplicity and division, the Unity found is of a higher
          > quality: a Unity that knows itself, instead of a unity that does not know
          > itself, for there is nothing else there which knows the other. Where the
          > Unity is absolute, who or what can know the Unity? Hence the need of the
          > appearance of something which is not that, in order to know what it is.
          > The original Will was towards forming individual beings that would be
          > capable of becoming conscious again of their origin, although the procedure
          > of individualisation compelled the individual to feel itself separate in
          > order to be an individual. And the very moment it is separated, it is cut
          > off from the original Consciousness, at least apparently, and falls into
          > inconscience, for the only thing that is the Life of life is the Origin.
          > It is this inconscience that brings it about that you are not aware any
          > longer of the Truth of your being. The secret of all deformation in the
          > world is this inconscience which has been produced by the fact of separation
          > from the Origin. And that explains why there are ugliness, wickedness,
          > illness, suffering and death. It is because of this inconscience that
          > although the Origin is there, it cannot manifest itself. It is there, that
          > is why the world exists, but it is deformed in its expression, because it
          > manifests itself through inconscience, ignorance and obscurity.
          > The only way to set everything right is to be conscious again and it is very
          > simple.
          > You are That, you are in That.
          > To make you understand more easily, I may say, That is within us, That is
          > part of our consciousness somewhere. Otherwise we would never be able to be
          > conscious of it. If we did not carry the Divine within ourselves, in the
          > essence of our being, we would never be aware of Him, it would be an
          > impossible task.
          > There is only one thing to be found, not two.
          > If one goes round long enough one must come back to the same point. And once
          > you come back, you have the impression that there was never anything to find
          > outside. Yes, it is like that, there is nothing to find outside yourself.
          > [http://sriaurobindoashram.com/Content.aspx?ContentURL=_StaticContent/SriAurobindoAshram/-09%20E-Library/-03%20Disciples/Nolini%20Kanta%20Gupta/Volume-4/-047_The%20Origin.htm]
          > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
          > >
          > > Your statements here are most difficult to follow.
          > >
          > > First you say that there is "severe collectivism", then the birth of
          > > intransigent individualism. The pendulum swings. So you end up with the
          > > "herd instinct" which I suppose is back to "severe collectivism".
          > >
          > > Human society is not that simplistic. You would have to ignore some
          > > historical figures [depending upon what you mean by "past ages] who were
          > > individualists. You would also have to ignore religions which are
          > > collective and continue to be.
          > >
          > > Then you totally lost me with, "... the demand of the individual soul to
          > > unite with the individual soul, ...". How can a soul [assuming that such
          > > actually exists] demand to be united with itself?? Why should it make
          > > such
          > > a demand??
          > >
          > > eduard
          >
          > > -----Original Message-----
          > > From: devindersingh
          > > Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 6:15 AM
          > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          > > Subject: [existlist] Re: Salvation or Deliverance
          > >
          > > The past ages of society were characterised more or less by a severe
          > > collectivism. In ancient Greece, more so in Sparta and in Rome, the
          > > individual had, properly speaking, no separate existence of his own; he
          > > was
          > > merged in the State or Nation. The individual was considered only as a
          > > limb
          > > of the collective being, had to live and labour for the common weal. The
          > > value attached to each person was strictly in reference to the output that
          > > the group to which he belonged received from him. Apart from this service
          > > for the general unit-the body politic-any personal endeavour and
          > > achievement, if not absolutely discouraged and repressed, was given a very
          > > secondary place of merit.
          > > The individual has his own law and urge of being and his own secret
          > > godhead.
          > > The collective godhead derides the individual godhead at its peril. The
          > > first movement of the reaction, how­ever, was a run to the other
          > > extremity;
          > > a stern collectivism gave birth to an intransigent individualism. The
          > > individual is sacred and inviolable, cost what it may. It does not matter
          > > what sort of individuality one seeks, it is enough if the thing is there.
          > > So
          > > the doctrine of individualism has come to set a premium on egoism and on
          > > forces that are disruptive of all social bonds. Each and every individual
          > > has the inherent right, which is also a duty, to follow his own impetus
          > > and
          > > impulse. Society is nothing but the battle ground for competing
          > > indi­vidualities â€" the strongest survive and the weakest go to the
          > > wall.
          > > Association and co-operation are instruments that the individual may use
          > > and
          > > utilise for his own growth and development but in the main they act as
          > > deterrents rather than as aids to the expression and expansion of his
          > > characteristic being. In reality, however, if we probe sufficiently deep
          > > into the matter we find that there is no such thing as corporate life and
          > > activity; what appears as such is only a camouflage for rigorous
          > > competition; at the best, there maybe only an offensive and defensive
          > > alliance-humanity fights against nature, and within humanity itself group
          > > fights against group and in the last analysis, within the group, the
          > > individual fights against the individual. This is the ultimate Law-the
          > > Dharma of creation.
          > > Now, what such an uncompromising individualism fails to recognise is that
          > > individuality and ego are not the same thing, that the individual may have
          > > his individuality intact and entire and yet sacrifice his ego, that the
          > > soul
          > > of man is a much greater thing than his vital being. It is simply ignoring
          > > the fact and denying the truth to say that man is only a fighting animal
          > > and
          > > not a loving god, that the self within the individual realises itself only
          > > through competition and not co-operation. It is an error to conceive of
          > > society as a mere parallelogram of forces, to suppose that it has risen
          > > simply out of the struggle of individual interests and continues to remain
          > > by that struggle. Struggle is only one aspect of the thing, a particular
          > > form at a particular stage, a temporary manifestation due to a particular
          > > system and a particular habit and training. It would be nearer the truth
          > > to
          > > say that society came into being with the demand of the individual soul to
          > > unite with the individual soul, with the stress of an Over-soul to express
          > > itself in a multitude of forms, diverse yet linked together and organised
          > > in
          > > perfect harmony. Only, the stress for union manifested itself first on the
          > > material plane as struggle: but this is meant to be corrected and
          > > transcended and is being continually corrected and transcended by a secret
          > > harmony, a real commonality and brotherhood and unity. The individual is
          > > not
          > > so self-centred as the individualists make him to be, his individuality
          > > has
          > > a much vaster orbit and fulfils itself only by fulfilling others. The
          > > scientists have begun to discover other instincts in man than those of
          > > struggle and competition; they now place at the origin of social grouping
          > > an
          > > instinct which they name the herd-instinct: but this is only a formulation
          > > in lower terms, a translation on the vital plane of a higher truth and
          > > reality-the fundamental oneness and accord of individuals and their
          > > spiritual impulsion to unite.
          > > [http://sriaurobindoashram.com/Content.aspx?ContentURL=_StaticContent/SriAurobindoAshram/-09%20E-Library/-03%20Disciples/Nolini%20Kanta%20Gupta/Volume-1/-06_On%20Communism.html]
          > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "devindersingh" wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Eduard,
          > > > In India we live with this knowledge...The water Buffalo loves to wallow
          > > > in the mud. We let it revel.
          > > >
          > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" wrote:
          > > >
          > > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Say, what???
          > > > > >Eduard, this the sort of gibberish that we will get from this guy. It
          > > > > >ia about as relevant to modernism as is the news about the pope.
          > > > > >These
          > > > > >throwbacks to religion will just fade. Now most of the catholics are
          > > > > >in the poor ,southern hemisphere. I think the buddists will be run
          > > > > >over
          > > > > >by the more agressive Islamists or the Chinese Communists. At any
          > > > > >rate
          > > > > >it will take centuries and we would do better to ignore them and
          > > > > >tend
          > > > > >to the business of northern man. Ignore is the operant word as
          > > > > >trying
          > > > > >to deal with religous fanatics just does not pay off. Set them
          > > > > >against
          > > > > >themselves and go about building a better world here in our homes.
          > > > > >The islamists Hindus and Chinese are wildly over breed and will
          > > > > >kill
          > > > > >each other for food and fuel. Our populations are under control and
          > > > > >our
          > > > > >food and energy needs are being met. Let them deal with each other
          > > > > >and
          > > > > >we will deal with them only at a profit. Listening to their ancient
          > > > > >and losing ideas is only a waste of time. Bill
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
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