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Re: Salvation or Deliverance

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  • devindersingh
    The past ages of society were characterised more or less by a severe collectivism. In ancient Greece, more so in Sparta and in Rome, the individual had,
    Message 1 of 19 , Feb 12, 2013
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      The past ages of society were characterised more or less by a severe collectivism. In ancient Greece, more so in Sparta and in Rome, the individual had, properly speaking, no separate existence of his own; he was merged in the State or Nation. The individual was considered only as a limb of the collective being, had to live and labour for the common weal. The value attached to each person was strictly in reference to the output that the group to which he belonged received from him. Apart from this service for the general unit-the body politic-any personal endeavour and achievement, if not absolutely discouraged and repressed, was given a very secondary place of merit.
      The individual has his own law and urge of being and his own secret godhead. The collective godhead derides the individual godhead at its peril. The first movement of the reaction, how­ever, was a run to the other extremity; a stern collectivism gave birth to an intransigent individualism. The individual is sacred and inviolable, cost what it may. It does not matter what sort of individuality one seeks, it is enough if the thing is there. So the doctrine of individualism has come to set a premium on egoism and on forces that are disruptive of all social bonds. Each and every individual has the inherent right, which is also a duty, to follow his own impetus and impulse. Society is nothing but the battle ground for competing indi­vidualities – the strongest survive and the weakest go to the wall. Association and co-operation are instruments that the individual may use and utilise for his own growth and development but in the main they act as deterrents rather than as aids to the expression and expansion of his characteristic being. In reality, however, if we probe sufficiently deep into the matter we find that there is no such thing as corporate life and activity; what appears as such is only a camouflage for rigorous competition; at the best, there maybe only an offensive and defensive alliance-humanity fights against nature, and within humanity itself group fights against group and in the last analysis, within the group, the individual fights against the individual. This is the ultimate Law-the Dharma of creation.
      Now, what such an uncompromising individualism fails to recognise is that individuality and ego are not the same thing, that the individual may have his individuality intact and entire and yet sacrifice his ego, that the soul of man is a much greater thing than his vital being. It is simply ignoring the fact and denying the truth to say that man is only a fighting animal and not a loving god, that the self within the individual realises itself only through competition and not co-operation. It is an error to conceive of society as a mere parallelogram of forces, to suppose that it has risen simply out of the struggle of individual interests and continues to remain by that struggle. Struggle is only one aspect of the thing, a particular form at a particular stage, a temporary manifestation due to a particular system and a particular habit and training. It would be nearer the truth to say that society came into being with the demand of the individual soul to unite with the individual soul, with the stress of an Over-soul to express itself in a multitude of forms, diverse yet linked together and organised in perfect harmony. Only, the stress for union manifested itself first on the material plane as struggle: but this is meant to be corrected and transcended and is being continually corrected and transcended by a secret harmony, a real commonality and brotherhood and unity. The individual is not so self-centred as the individualists make him to be, his individuality has a much vaster orbit and fulfils itself only by fulfilling others. The scientists have begun to discover other instincts in man than those of struggle and competition; they now place at the origin of social grouping an instinct which they name the herd-instinct: but this is only a formulation in lower terms, a translation on the vital plane of a higher truth and reality-the fundamental oneness and accord of individuals and their spiritual impulsion to unite.
      [http://sriaurobindoashram.com/Content.aspx?ContentURL=_StaticContent/SriAurobindoAshram/-09%20E-Library/-03%20Disciples/Nolini%20Kanta%20Gupta/Volume-1/-06_On%20Communism.html]
      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "devindersingh" wrote:
      >
      > Eduard,
      > In India we live with this knowledge...The water Buffalo loves to wallow in the mud. We let it revel.
      >
      > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" wrote:
      >
      > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Say, what???
      > > >Eduard, this the sort of gibberish that we will get from this guy. It ia about as relevant to modernism as is the news about the pope. These throwbacks to religion will just fade. Now most of the catholics are in the poor ,southern hemisphere. I think the buddists will be run over by the more agressive Islamists or the Chinese Communists. At any rate it will take centuries and we would do better to ignore them and tend to the business of northern man. Ignore is the operant word as trying to deal with religous fanatics just does not pay off. Set them against themselves and go about building a better world here in our homes. The islamists Hindus and Chinese are wildly over breed and will kill each other for food and fuel. Our populations are under control and our food and energy needs are being met. Let them deal with each other and we will deal with them only at a profit. Listening to their ancient and losing ideas is only a waste of time. Bill
      > > > -----Original Message-----
      > > > From: devindersingh
      > > > Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 12:13 AM
      > > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      > > > Subject: [existlist] Re: Salvation or Deliverance
      > > >
      > > > The action of the Force does not exclude tapasya, concentration and the need
      > > > of sadhana. Its action rather comes as an answer or a help to these things.
      > > > It is true that it sometimes acts without them; it very often makes a
      > > > response in those who have not prepared themselves and do not seem to be
      > > > ready. But it does not always or usually act like that, nor is it a sort of
      > > > magic that acts in the void or without any process. Nor is it a machine that
      > > > acts in the same way on everybody or in all conditions and circumstances; it
      > > > is not a physical but a spiritual Force and its action cannot be reduced to
      > > > rules.
      > > > About the limitation of the power of the Guru to that of a teacher who shows
      > > > the way but cannot help or guide, that is the conception of certain paths of
      > > > yoga such as the pure Adwaitin and the Buddhist which say that you must rely
      > > > upon yourself and that no one can help you; but even the pure Adwaitin does
      > > > in fact rely upon the Guru and the chief mantra of Buddhism insists on
      > > > sharanam [ = refuge/shelter] to Buddha. For other paths of sadhana,
      > > > especially those which, like the Gita, accept the reality of the individual
      > > > soul as an "eternal portion" of the Divine or which believe that Bhagavan
      > > > and the bhakta are both real, the help of the Guru has always been relied
      > > > upon as an indispensable aid. http://intyoga.online.fr/gurus.htm
      > > >
      > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Dick." wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Salvation or Deliverance
      > > > >
      > > > > These are predominantly religious terms and very common, if not central
      > > > > to christianity. Neither of which are my thing. But so many times I have
      > > > > been asked as to if any of this relates in any way to transcendent
      > > > > mystical experience. In a way it does, yes.
      > > > >
      > > > > I have explained in the free books (Psychognosis and the Dignity of
      > > > > Man; and also in The mystical Gnosis Event and the Human Situation ) as
      > > > > to how Metaphysics must have originally come from Transcendent Mystical
      > > > > experience thousands of years ago probably when humanity lived in caves.
      > > > > And stories of experiences get told and passed on from one generation to
      > > > > the next for aeons while sitting around the fires when the work was
      > > > > done. I have also told as to how priestcraft and politics took some of
      > > > > these passed on accounts and altered it and used it for their own vested
      > > > > purposes and turned it into their own profit making religion which you
      > > > > MUST follow if you want to go to heaven. And hence why the world and so
      > > > > called education is like it is now. A LIE and a FARCE.
      > > > >
      > > > > So, in what way can salvation or deliverance be found in Transcendent
      > > > > Mystical Experience? I have told in the books, and specifically in the
      > > > > Exegesis, as to how that journey finished up in the Annihilation of
      > > > > Conscious awareness. One is aware no more. Gone. Dead as a Dodo.
      > > > > Extinct. IS NO MORE. But then one comes back into consciousness
      > > > > awareness again. But NOT here. But back into the primordial Ground of
      > > > > Conscious existence â€" Paradesium, Eternity, Elysium, the timeless
      > > > > domain of existence; and where we redeem the experiences of what we ARE
      > > > > at that level of Being. The Original SELF. The first `child' of
      > > > > all manifest existence. The I AM at the core root of me and you and all
      > > > > conscious life forms. It is there to find so see if you can find it. I
      > > > > found it and there is nothing special about me. SO dump your religions
      > > > > and dump all your beliefs and go in search of your SELF. Nobody can give
      > > > > it to you; and when hearing words of it, as you are now, then that is
      > > > > not having it and knowing it. You must find it for yourself. Then you
      > > > > will KNOW it by direct experience.
      > > > >
      > > > > But yes, arsing again from that annihilation could indeed be called
      > > > > salvation from non existence, or deliverance from annihilation. And
      > > > > redemption means getting something back which is yours â€" the
      > > > > Knowledge of SELF.
      > > > >
      > > > > Do your bishops or guru's or `mystics' or `gnostics'
      > > > > or `enlightened ones' tell you these things? NO. They do not.
      > > > > But I do. And I spell it all out in fine grain detail. So you can know
      > > > > it before you KNOW it. Homo Ensophicus is coming. Revolution equals
      > > > > Evolution. A great wonder, my friend, are YOU. And the consciousness of
      > > > > Man is ever tied to the cross if Time and Eternity. (X) Don't wait
      > > > > until you are gone from here to learn it. It is needed HERE, not there.
      > > > >
      > > > > http://www.psychognosis.net
      > > > >
      > > > > Dick Richardson
      >
      > > > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
      >
    • devindersingh
      Every age has claimed to be modern and sought to establish its characteristic newness, the hall-mark that separates it from the preceding age. The scientific
      Message 2 of 19 , Feb 12, 2013
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        Every age has claimed to be modern and sought to establish its characteristic newness, the hall-mark that separates it from the preceding age.
        The scientific spirit, in one word, is rationalisation – rationalisation of Mind as well as of Life. With regard to Mind, rationalisation means to get knowledge exclusively on the data of the senses; it is the formulation, in laws and principles, of facts observed by the physical organs, these laws and principles being the categories of the arranging, classifying, generalising faculty, called reason; its methodology also demands that the laws are to be as few as possible embracing as many facts as possible. Rationalisation of life means the government of life in accordance with these laws, so that the wastage in natural life due to the diversity and disparity off acts may be eliminated, at least minimised, and all movements of life ordered and organised in view of a single and constant purpose (which is perhaps the enhancement of the value of life). This rationalisa­tion means further, in effect, mechanisation or efficiency, as its protagonists would prefer to call it. However, mechanistic efficiency, whether in the matter of knowledge or of life-of mind or of morals was the motto of the early period of the gospel of science, the age of Huxley and Haeckel, of Bentham and the Mills. The formula no longer holds good either in the field of pure knowledge or in its application to life; it does not embody the aspiration and outlook of the contemporary mind, in spite of such inveterate rationalists as Russell and Wells or even Shaw (in Back to Methuselah, for example), who seem to be already becoming an anachronism in the present age.
        The contemporary urge is not towards rationalisation, but rather towards irrationalisation. Orthodox science itself is taking greater and greater cognisance today of the irrational move­ments of nature, even of physical nature. Intuition and instinct are now welcomed as surer and truer instruments of knowledge and action than reason.
        Another special feature of the modern consciousness is its "multiple sightedness". The world, as it is presented to us, is no more than an assemblage of view-points; and each point of observation forms its own world-system. There is no one single ultimate truth; if there is any, there is no possibility of its being known or perceived by the mind or the senses. Things exist in relation to one another and for us they have no intrinsic existence apart from the relations. The instrument itself that perceives is the resultant of a system of relations. A truth is only a view-point; and as the view-point shifts, the truth also varies accordingly. The cult of Relativity is a significant expression of the modern consciousness.[http://sriaurobindoashram.com/Content.aspx?ContentURL=_StaticContent/SriAurobindoAshram/-09%20E-Library/-03%20Disciples/Nolini%20Kanta%20Gupta/Volume-1/-29_Aspects%20of%20Modernism.html]

        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "devindersingh" wrote:
        >
        > The past ages of society were characterised more or less by a severe collectivism. In ancient Greece, more so in Sparta and in Rome, the individual had, properly speaking, no separate existence of his own; he was merged in the State or Nation. The individual was considered only as a limb of the collective being, had to live and labour for the common weal. The value attached to each person was strictly in reference to the output that the group to which he belonged received from him. Apart from this service for the general unit-the body politic-any personal endeavour and achievement, if not absolutely discouraged and repressed, was given a very secondary place of merit.
        > The individual has his own law and urge of being and his own secret godhead. The collective godhead derides the individual godhead at its peril. The first movement of the reaction, how­ever, was a run to the other extremity; a stern collectivism gave birth to an intransigent individualism. The individual is sacred and inviolable, cost what it may. It does not matter what sort of individuality one seeks, it is enough if the thing is there. So the doctrine of individualism has come to set a premium on egoism and on forces that are disruptive of all social bonds. Each and every individual has the inherent right, which is also a duty, to follow his own impetus and impulse. Society is nothing but the battle ground for competing indi­vidualities – the strongest survive and the weakest go to the wall. Association and co-operation are instruments that the individual may use and utilise for his own growth and development but in the main they act as deterrents rather than as aids to the expression and expansion of his characteristic being. In reality, however, if we probe sufficiently deep into the matter we find that there is no such thing as corporate life and activity; what appears as such is only a camouflage for rigorous competition; at the best, there maybe only an offensive and defensive alliance-humanity fights against nature, and within humanity itself group fights against group and in the last analysis, within the group, the individual fights against the individual. This is the ultimate Law-the Dharma of creation.
        > Now, what such an uncompromising individualism fails to recognise is that individuality and ego are not the same thing, that the individual may have his individuality intact and entire and yet sacrifice his ego, that the soul of man is a much greater thing than his vital being. It is simply ignoring the fact and denying the truth to say that man is only a fighting animal and not a loving god, that the self within the individual realises itself only through competition and not co-operation. It is an error to conceive of society as a mere parallelogram of forces, to suppose that it has risen simply out of the struggle of individual interests and continues to remain by that struggle. Struggle is only one aspect of the thing, a particular form at a particular stage, a temporary manifestation due to a particular system and a particular habit and training. It would be nearer the truth to say that society came into being with the demand of the individual soul to unite with the individual soul, with the stress of an Over-soul to express itself in a multitude of forms, diverse yet linked together and organised in perfect harmony. Only, the stress for union manifested itself first on the material plane as struggle: but this is meant to be corrected and transcended and is being continually corrected and transcended by a secret harmony, a real commonality and brotherhood and unity. The individual is not so self-centred as the individualists make him to be, his individuality has a much vaster orbit and fulfils itself only by fulfilling others. The scientists have begun to discover other instincts in man than those of struggle and competition; they now place at the origin of social grouping an instinct which they name the herd-instinct: but this is only a formulation in lower terms, a translation on the vital plane of a higher truth and reality-the fundamental oneness and accord of individuals and their spiritual impulsion to unite.
        > [http://sriaurobindoashram.com/Content.aspx?ContentURL=_StaticContent/SriAurobindoAshram/-09%20E-Library/-03%20Disciples/Nolini%20Kanta%20Gupta/Volume-1/-06_On%20Communism.html]
        > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "devindersingh" wrote:
        > >
        > > Eduard,
        > > In India we live with this knowledge...The water Buffalo loves to wallow in the mud. We let it revel.
        > >
        > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" wrote:
        > >
        > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > Say, what???
        > > > >Eduard, this the sort of gibberish that we will get from this guy. It ia about as relevant to modernism as is the news about the pope. These throwbacks to religion will just fade. Now most of the catholics are in the poor ,southern hemisphere. I think the buddists will be run over by the more agressive Islamists or the Chinese Communists. At any rate it will take centuries and we would do better to ignore them and tend to the business of northern man. Ignore is the operant word as trying to deal with religous fanatics just does not pay off. Set them against themselves and go about building a better world here in our homes. The islamists Hindus and Chinese are wildly over breed and will kill each other for food and fuel. Our populations are under control and our food and energy needs are being met. Let them deal with each other and we will deal with them only at a profit. Listening to their ancient and losing ideas is only a waste of time. Bill
      • devindersingh
        The first time I heard about the Mother was shortly after our arrival here. It was Sri Aurobindo himself who told us about a French lady from Paris who was a
        Message 3 of 19 , Feb 12, 2013
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          The first time I heard about the Mother was shortly after our arrival here. It was Sri Aurobindo himself who told us about a French lady from Paris who was a great initiate. She was desirous of establishing personal contact with Sri Aurobindo. That the Great Soul whom she meant was no other than Sri Aurobindo would be evidenced by a sign: she would be sending him something that he might recognise. That something was Sri Aurobindo's own symbol – in the form of a diagram, known as Solomon's Seal. Needless to add, after this proof of identity, steps were taken to facilitate her coming.
          We received her as a friend and companion, as one very close to ourselves, first, because Sri Aurobindo himself received her like that, and secondly because of her qualities. Now that we are on this subject of her qualities, although it is not necessary for a child to proclaim the virtues of his mother, I cannot here "'refrain from telling you about another point in her teaching. This concerns something deeper. The first time Sri Aurobindo happened to describe her qualities, he said he had never seen anywhere a self-surrender so absolute and unreserved.
          First I came to know that she was a very fine painter; and afterwards that she was an equally gifted musician. But there were other surprises in store. For instance, she had an intellectual side no less richly endowed, that is to say, she had read and studied enormously, had been engaged in intellectual pursuits even as the learned do. I was still more surprised to find that while in France she had already studied and translated a good number of Indian texts, like the Gita, the Upanishads, the Yoga-sutras, the Bhakti-sutras of Narada. I mention all this merely to tell you that the Mother's capacity of making her mind a complete blank was as extraordinary as her enormous mental acquisitions. This was something unique. In the early days, when she had just taken charge of our spiritual life, she told me one day in private, perhaps seeing that I might have a pride in being an intellectual, "At one time I used to take an interest in philosophy and other intellectual pursuits. All that is now gone below the surface, but I can bring it up again at will." So, I need not have any fears on that score! It was as if the Mother was trying to apologise for her deficiencies in scholarship. This was how she taught me the meaning of humility, what we call Divine Humility.
          In the beginning, Sri Aurobindo would refer to the Mother quite distinctly as Mira. For some time afterwards (this may have extended over a period of years) we could notice that he stopped at the sound of M and uttered the full name Mira as, if after a slight hesitation. To us it looked rather queer at the time, but later we came to know the reason. Sri Aurobindo's lips were on the verge of saying "Mother"; but we had yet to get ready, so he ended with Mira instead of saying Mother. No one knows for certain on which particular date, at what auspicious moment, the word "Mother" was uttered by the lips of Sri Aurobindo. But that was a divine moment in unrecorded time, a moment of destiny in the history of man and earth; for it was at this supreme moment that the Mother was established on this material earth, in the external consciousness of man.
          I have said that so far the Mother had been to us a friend and companion, a comrade almost, at the most an object of reverence and respect. I was now about to start on my annual trip to Bengal – in those days I used to go there once every year, and that was perhaps my last trip. Before leaving, I felt a desire to see the Mother. The Mother had not yet come out of her seclusion and Sri Aurobindo had not yet retired behind the scenes. I said to him, "I would like to see Her before I go."- Her with a capital H, in place of the Mother, for we had not yet started using that name. Sri Aurobindo informed the Mother. The room now used by Champaklal was the Mother's room in those days. I entered and waited in the Prosperity room, for Sri Aurobindo used to meet people in the verandah in front. The Mother came in from her room and stood near the door. I approached her and said, "I am going," and then lay prostrate at her feet. That was my first Pranam to the Mother. She said, "Come back soon." This "come back soon" meant in the end, "come back for good."
          [http://sriaurobindoashram.com/Content.aspx?ContentURL=_StaticContent/SriAurobindoAshram/-09%20E-Library/-03%20Disciples/Nolini%20Kanta%20Gupta/Volume-7/-63_I%20Bow%20To%20The%20Mother.htm]
          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
          >
          > Say, what???
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: devindersingh
          > Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 12:13 AM
          > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [existlist] Re: Salvation or Deliverance
          >
          > The action of the Force does not exclude tapasya, concentration and the need
          > of sadhana. Its action rather comes as an answer or a help to these things.
          > It is true that it sometimes acts without them; it very often makes a
          > response in those who have not prepared themselves and do not seem to be
          > ready. But it does not always or usually act like that, nor is it a sort of
          > magic that acts in the void or without any process. Nor is it a machine that
          > acts in the same way on everybody or in all conditions and circumstances; it
          > is not a physical but a spiritual Force and its action cannot be reduced to
          > rules.
          > About the limitation of the power of the Guru to that of a teacher who shows
          > the way but cannot help or guide, that is the conception of certain paths of
          > yoga such as the pure Adwaitin and the Buddhist which say that you must rely
          > upon yourself and that no one can help you; but even the pure Adwaitin does
          > in fact rely upon the Guru and the chief mantra of Buddhism insists on
          > sharanam [ = refuge/shelter] to Buddha. For other paths of sadhana,
          > especially those which, like the Gita, accept the reality of the individual
          > soul as an "eternal portion" of the Divine or which believe that Bhagavan
          > and the bhakta are both real, the help of the Guru has always been relied
          > upon as an indispensable aid. http://intyoga.online.fr/gurus.htm
        • eduardathome
          Yep ... and in India you have gang rapes in late night buses. The whole country had to be divided because you could not live with each other. You have a
          Message 4 of 19 , Feb 12, 2013
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            Yep ... and in India you have gang rapes in late night buses. The whole
            country had to be divided because you could not live with each other. You
            have a segment of society that are designated as untouchable, albeit you are
            trying to change that. I don't think that India has anything to teach the
            West. Which isn't to suggest that the West is in much good shape either
            with morality and such. But if you want to get some message out, it would
            be nice if you could put it in a context and with phrasing that is
            understandable, regardless of the fact that you "live" with this knowledge.

            eduard

            -----Original Message-----
            From: devindersingh
            Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 5:56 AM
            To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [existlist] Re: Salvation or Deliverance

            Eduard,
            In India we live with this knowledge...The water Buffalo loves to wallow in
            the mud. We let it revel.

            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" wrote:

            > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
            > >
            > > Say, what???
            > >Eduard, this the sort of gibberish that we will get from this guy. It ia
            > >about as relevant to modernism as is the news about the pope. These
            > >throwbacks to religion will just fade. Now most of the catholics are in
            > >the poor ,southern hemisphere. I think the buddists will be run over by
            > >the more agressive Islamists or the Chinese Communists. At any rate it
            > >will take centuries and we would do better to ignore them and tend to
            > >the business of northern man. Ignore is the operant word as trying to
            > >deal with religous fanatics just does not pay off. Set them against
            > >themselves and go about building a better world here in our homes. The
            > >islamists Hindus and Chinese are wildly over breed and will kill each
            > >other for food and fuel. Our populations are under control and our food
            > >and energy needs are being met. Let them deal with each other and we will
            > >deal with them only at a profit. Listening to their ancient and losing
            > >ideas is only a waste of time. Bill
            > > -----Original Message-----
            > > From: devindersingh
            > > Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 12:13 AM
            > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            > > Subject: [existlist] Re: Salvation or Deliverance
            > >
            > > The action of the Force does not exclude tapasya, concentration and the
            > > need
            > > of sadhana. Its action rather comes as an answer or a help to these
            > > things.
            > > It is true that it sometimes acts without them; it very often makes a
            > > response in those who have not prepared themselves and do not seem to be
            > > ready. But it does not always or usually act like that, nor is it a sort
            > > of
            > > magic that acts in the void or without any process. Nor is it a machine
            > > that
            > > acts in the same way on everybody or in all conditions and
            > > circumstances; it
            > > is not a physical but a spiritual Force and its action cannot be reduced
            > > to
            > > rules.
            > > About the limitation of the power of the Guru to that of a teacher who
            > > shows
            > > the way but cannot help or guide, that is the conception of certain
            > > paths of
            > > yoga such as the pure Adwaitin and the Buddhist which say that you must
            > > rely
            > > upon yourself and that no one can help you; but even the pure Adwaitin
            > > does
            > > in fact rely upon the Guru and the chief mantra of Buddhism insists on
            > > sharanam [ = refuge/shelter] to Buddha. For other paths of sadhana,
            > > especially those which, like the Gita, accept the reality of the
            > > individual
            > > soul as an "eternal portion" of the Divine or which believe that
            > > Bhagavan
            > > and the bhakta are both real, the help of the Guru has always been
            > > relied
            > > upon as an indispensable aid. http://intyoga.online.fr/gurus.htm
            > >
            > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Dick." wrote:
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Salvation or Deliverance
            > > >
            > > > These are predominantly religious terms and very common, if not
            > > > central
            > > > to christianity. Neither of which are my thing. But so many times I
            > > > have
            > > > been asked as to if any of this relates in any way to transcendent
            > > > mystical experience. In a way it does, yes.
            > > >
            > > > I have explained in the free books (Psychognosis and the Dignity of
            > > > Man; and also in The mystical Gnosis Event and the Human Situation )
            > > > as
            > > > to how Metaphysics must have originally come from Transcendent
            > > > Mystical
            > > > experience thousands of years ago probably when humanity lived in
            > > > caves.
            > > > And stories of experiences get told and passed on from one generation
            > > > to
            > > > the next for aeons while sitting around the fires when the work was
            > > > done. I have also told as to how priestcraft and politics took some of
            > > > these passed on accounts and altered it and used it for their own
            > > > vested
            > > > purposes and turned it into their own profit making religion which you
            > > > MUST follow if you want to go to heaven. And hence why the world and
            > > > so
            > > > called education is like it is now. A LIE and a FARCE.
            > > >
            > > > So, in what way can salvation or deliverance be found in Transcendent
            > > > Mystical Experience? I have told in the books, and specifically in
            > > > the
            > > > Exegesis, as to how that journey finished up in the Annihilation of
            > > > Conscious awareness. One is aware no more. Gone. Dead as a Dodo.
            > > > Extinct. IS NO MORE. But then one comes back into consciousness
            > > > awareness again. But NOT here. But back into the primordial Ground of
            > > > Conscious existence â€" Paradesium, Eternity, Elysium, the timeless
            > > > domain of existence; and where we redeem the experiences of what we
            > > > ARE
            > > > at that level of Being. The Original SELF. The first `child' of
            > > > all manifest existence. The I AM at the core root of me and you and
            > > > all
            > > > conscious life forms. It is there to find so see if you can find it. I
            > > > found it and there is nothing special about me. SO dump your religions
            > > > and dump all your beliefs and go in search of your SELF. Nobody can
            > > > give
            > > > it to you; and when hearing words of it, as you are now, then that is
            > > > not having it and knowing it. You must find it for yourself. Then you
            > > > will KNOW it by direct experience.
            > > >
            > > > But yes, arsing again from that annihilation could indeed be called
            > > > salvation from non existence, or deliverance from annihilation. And
            > > > redemption means getting something back which is yours â€" the
            > > > Knowledge of SELF.
            > > >
            > > > Do your bishops or guru's or `mystics' or `gnostics'
            > > > or `enlightened ones' tell you these things? NO. They do not.
            > > > But I do. And I spell it all out in fine grain detail. So you can know
            > > > it before you KNOW it. Homo Ensophicus is coming. Revolution equals
            > > > Evolution. A great wonder, my friend, are YOU. And the consciousness
            > > > of
            > > > Man is ever tied to the cross if Time and Eternity. (X) Don't wait
            > > > until you are gone from here to learn it. It is needed HERE, not
            > > > there.
            > > >
            > > > http://www.psychognosis.net
            > > >
            > > > Dick Richardson

            > > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links




            ------------------------------------

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          • eduardathome
            Your statements here are most difficult to follow. First you say that there is severe collectivism , then the birth of intransigent individualism. The
            Message 5 of 19 , Feb 12, 2013
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              Your statements here are most difficult to follow.

              First you say that there is "severe collectivism", then the birth of
              intransigent individualism. The pendulum swings. So you end up with the
              "herd instinct" which I suppose is back to "severe collectivism".

              Human society is not that simplistic. You would have to ignore some
              historical figures [depending upon what you mean by "past ages] who were
              individualists. You would also have to ignore religions which are
              collective and continue to be.

              Then you totally lost me with, "... the demand of the individual soul to
              unite with the individual soul, ...". How can a soul [assuming that such
              actually exists] demand to be united with itself?? Why should it make such
              a demand??

              eduard


              -----Original Message-----
              From: devindersingh
              Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 6:15 AM
              To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [existlist] Re: Salvation or Deliverance

              The past ages of society were characterised more or less by a severe
              collectivism. In ancient Greece, more so in Sparta and in Rome, the
              individual had, properly speaking, no separate existence of his own; he was
              merged in the State or Nation. The individual was considered only as a limb
              of the collective being, had to live and labour for the common weal. The
              value attached to each person was strictly in reference to the output that
              the group to which he belonged received from him. Apart from this service
              for the general unit-the body politic-any personal endeavour and
              achievement, if not absolutely discouraged and repressed, was given a very
              secondary place of merit.
              The individual has his own law and urge of being and his own secret godhead.
              The collective godhead derides the individual godhead at its peril. The
              first movement of the reaction, how­ever, was a run to the other extremity;
              a stern collectivism gave birth to an intransigent individualism. The
              individual is sacred and inviolable, cost what it may. It does not matter
              what sort of individuality one seeks, it is enough if the thing is there. So
              the doctrine of individualism has come to set a premium on egoism and on
              forces that are disruptive of all social bonds. Each and every individual
              has the inherent right, which is also a duty, to follow his own impetus and
              impulse. Society is nothing but the battle ground for competing
              indi­vidualities – the strongest survive and the weakest go to the wall.
              Association and co-operation are instruments that the individual may use and
              utilise for his own growth and development but in the main they act as
              deterrents rather than as aids to the expression and expansion of his
              characteristic being. In reality, however, if we probe sufficiently deep
              into the matter we find that there is no such thing as corporate life and
              activity; what appears as such is only a camouflage for rigorous
              competition; at the best, there maybe only an offensive and defensive
              alliance-humanity fights against nature, and within humanity itself group
              fights against group and in the last analysis, within the group, the
              individual fights against the individual. This is the ultimate Law-the
              Dharma of creation.
              Now, what such an uncompromising individualism fails to recognise is that
              individuality and ego are not the same thing, that the individual may have
              his individuality intact and entire and yet sacrifice his ego, that the soul
              of man is a much greater thing than his vital being. It is simply ignoring
              the fact and denying the truth to say that man is only a fighting animal and
              not a loving god, that the self within the individual realises itself only
              through competition and not co-operation. It is an error to conceive of
              society as a mere parallelogram of forces, to suppose that it has risen
              simply out of the struggle of individual interests and continues to remain
              by that struggle. Struggle is only one aspect of the thing, a particular
              form at a particular stage, a temporary manifestation due to a particular
              system and a particular habit and training. It would be nearer the truth to
              say that society came into being with the demand of the individual soul to
              unite with the individual soul, with the stress of an Over-soul to express
              itself in a multitude of forms, diverse yet linked together and organised in
              perfect harmony. Only, the stress for union manifested itself first on the
              material plane as struggle: but this is meant to be corrected and
              transcended and is being continually corrected and transcended by a secret
              harmony, a real commonality and brotherhood and unity. The individual is not
              so self-centred as the individualists make him to be, his individuality has
              a much vaster orbit and fulfils itself only by fulfilling others. The
              scientists have begun to discover other instincts in man than those of
              struggle and competition; they now place at the origin of social grouping an
              instinct which they name the herd-instinct: but this is only a formulation
              in lower terms, a translation on the vital plane of a higher truth and
              reality-the fundamental oneness and accord of individuals and their
              spiritual impulsion to unite.
              [http://sriaurobindoashram.com/Content.aspx?ContentURL=_StaticContent/SriAurobindoAshram/-09%20E-Library/-03%20Disciples/Nolini%20Kanta%20Gupta/Volume-1/-06_On%20Communism.html]
              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "devindersingh" wrote:
              >
              > Eduard,
              > In India we live with this knowledge...The water Buffalo loves to wallow
              > in the mud. We let it revel.
              >
              > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" wrote:
              >
              > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Say, what???
              > > >Eduard, this the sort of gibberish that we will get from this guy. It
              > > >ia about as relevant to modernism as is the news about the pope. These
              > > >throwbacks to religion will just fade. Now most of the catholics are
              > > >in the poor ,southern hemisphere. I think the buddists will be run over
              > > >by the more agressive Islamists or the Chinese Communists. At any rate
              > > >it will take centuries and we would do better to ignore them and tend
              > > >to the business of northern man. Ignore is the operant word as trying
              > > >to deal with religous fanatics just does not pay off. Set them against
              > > >themselves and go about building a better world here in our homes.
              > > >The islamists Hindus and Chinese are wildly over breed and will kill
              > > >each other for food and fuel. Our populations are under control and our
              > > >food and energy needs are being met. Let them deal with each other and
              > > >we will deal with them only at a profit. Listening to their ancient
              > > >and losing ideas is only a waste of time. Bill
              > > > -----Original Message-----
              > > > From: devindersingh
              > > > Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 12:13 AM
              > > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              > > > Subject: [existlist] Re: Salvation or Deliverance
              > > >
              > > > The action of the Force does not exclude tapasya, concentration and
              > > > the need
              > > > of sadhana. Its action rather comes as an answer or a help to these
              > > > things.
              > > > It is true that it sometimes acts without them; it very often makes a
              > > > response in those who have not prepared themselves and do not seem to
              > > > be
              > > > ready. But it does not always or usually act like that, nor is it a
              > > > sort of
              > > > magic that acts in the void or without any process. Nor is it a
              > > > machine that
              > > > acts in the same way on everybody or in all conditions and
              > > > circumstances; it
              > > > is not a physical but a spiritual Force and its action cannot be
              > > > reduced to
              > > > rules.
              > > > About the limitation of the power of the Guru to that of a teacher who
              > > > shows
              > > > the way but cannot help or guide, that is the conception of certain
              > > > paths of
              > > > yoga such as the pure Adwaitin and the Buddhist which say that you
              > > > must rely
              > > > upon yourself and that no one can help you; but even the pure Adwaitin
              > > > does
              > > > in fact rely upon the Guru and the chief mantra of Buddhism insists on
              > > > sharanam [ = refuge/shelter] to Buddha. For other paths of sadhana,
              > > > especially those which, like the Gita, accept the reality of the
              > > > individual
              > > > soul as an "eternal portion" of the Divine or which believe that
              > > > Bhagavan
              > > > and the bhakta are both real, the help of the Guru has always been
              > > > relied
              > > > upon as an indispensable aid. http://intyoga.online.fr/gurus.htm
              > > >
              > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Dick." wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > Salvation or Deliverance
              > > > >
              > > > > These are predominantly religious terms and very common, if not
              > > > > central
              > > > > to christianity. Neither of which are my thing. But so many times I
              > > > > have
              > > > > been asked as to if any of this relates in any way to transcendent
              > > > > mystical experience. In a way it does, yes.
              > > > >
              > > > > I have explained in the free books (Psychognosis and the Dignity
              > > > > of
              > > > > Man; and also in The mystical Gnosis Event and the Human Situation )
              > > > > as
              > > > > to how Metaphysics must have originally come from Transcendent
              > > > > Mystical
              > > > > experience thousands of years ago probably when humanity lived in
              > > > > caves.
              > > > > And stories of experiences get told and passed on from one
              > > > > generation to
              > > > > the next for aeons while sitting around the fires when the work was
              > > > > done. I have also told as to how priestcraft and politics took some
              > > > > of
              > > > > these passed on accounts and altered it and used it for their own
              > > > > vested
              > > > > purposes and turned it into their own profit making religion which
              > > > > you
              > > > > MUST follow if you want to go to heaven. And hence why the world
              > > > > and so
              > > > > called education is like it is now. A LIE and a FARCE.
              > > > >
              > > > > So, in what way can salvation or deliverance be found in
              > > > > Transcendent
              > > > > Mystical Experience? I have told in the books, and specifically in
              > > > > the
              > > > > Exegesis, as to how that journey finished up in the Annihilation of
              > > > > Conscious awareness. One is aware no more. Gone. Dead as a Dodo.
              > > > > Extinct. IS NO MORE. But then one comes back into consciousness
              > > > > awareness again. But NOT here. But back into the primordial Ground
              > > > > of
              > > > > Conscious existence â€" Paradesium, Eternity, Elysium, the timeless
              > > > > domain of existence; and where we redeem the experiences of what we
              > > > > ARE
              > > > > at that level of Being. The Original SELF. The first `child' of
              > > > > all manifest existence. The I AM at the core root of me and you and
              > > > > all
              > > > > conscious life forms. It is there to find so see if you can find it.
              > > > > I
              > > > > found it and there is nothing special about me. SO dump your
              > > > > religions
              > > > > and dump all your beliefs and go in search of your SELF. Nobody can
              > > > > give
              > > > > it to you; and when hearing words of it, as you are now, then that
              > > > > is
              > > > > not having it and knowing it. You must find it for yourself. Then
              > > > > you
              > > > > will KNOW it by direct experience.
              > > > >
              > > > > But yes, arsing again from that annihilation could indeed be called
              > > > > salvation from non existence, or deliverance from annihilation. And
              > > > > redemption means getting something back which is yours â€" the
              > > > > Knowledge of SELF.
              > > > >
              > > > > Do your bishops or guru's or `mystics' or `gnostics'
              > > > > or `enlightened ones' tell you these things? NO. They do not.
              > > > > But I do. And I spell it all out in fine grain detail. So you can
              > > > > know
              > > > > it before you KNOW it. Homo Ensophicus is coming. Revolution equals
              > > > > Evolution. A great wonder, my friend, are YOU. And the
              > > > > consciousness of
              > > > > Man is ever tied to the cross if Time and Eternity. (X) Don't wait
              > > > > until you are gone from here to learn it. It is needed HERE, not
              > > > > there.
              > > > >
              > > > > http://www.psychognosis.net
              > > > >
              > > > > Dick Richardson
              >
              > > > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
              >



              ------------------------------------

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            • eduardathome
              What is your point?? By the way, what is your first name?? Is it Devinder?? eduard ... From: devindersingh Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 7:24 AM To:
              Message 6 of 19 , Feb 12, 2013
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                What is your point??

                By the way, what is your first name?? Is it Devinder??

                eduard

                -----Original Message-----
                From: devindersingh
                Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 7:24 AM
                To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [existlist] Re: Salvation or Deliverance

                The first time I heard about the Mother was shortly after our arrival here.
                It was Sri Aurobindo himself who told us about a French lady from Paris who
                was a great initiate. She was desirous of establishing personal contact with
                Sri Aurobindo. That the Great Soul whom she meant was no other than Sri
                Aurobindo would be evidenced by a sign: she would be sending him something
                that he might recognise. That something was Sri Aurobindo's own symbol – in
                the form of a diagram, known as Solomon's Seal. Needless to add, after this
                proof of identity, steps were taken to facilitate her coming.
                We received her as a friend and companion, as one very close to ourselves,
                first, because Sri Aurobindo himself received her like that, and secondly
                because of her qualities. Now that we are on this subject of her qualities,
                although it is not necessary for a child to proclaim the virtues of his
                mother, I cannot here "'refrain from telling you about another point in her
                teaching. This concerns something deeper. The first time Sri Aurobindo
                happened to describe her qualities, he said he had never seen anywhere a
                self-surrender so absolute and unreserved.
                First I came to know that she was a very fine painter; and afterwards that
                she was an equally gifted musician. But there were other surprises in store.
                For instance, she had an intellectual side no less richly endowed, that is
                to say, she had read and studied enormously, had been engaged in
                intellectual pursuits even as the learned do. I was still more surprised to
                find that while in France she had already studied and translated a good
                number of Indian texts, like the Gita, the Upanishads, the Yoga-sutras, the
                Bhakti-sutras of Narada. I mention all this merely to tell you that the
                Mother's capacity of making her mind a complete blank was as extraordinary
                as her enormous mental acquisitions. This was something unique. In the early
                days, when she had just taken charge of our spiritual life, she told me one
                day in private, perhaps seeing that I might have a pride in being an
                intellectual, "At one time I used to take an interest in philosophy and
                other intellectual pursuits. All that is now gone below the surface, but I
                can bring it up again at will." So, I need not have any fears on that score!
                It was as if the Mother was trying to apologise for her deficiencies in
                scholarship. This was how she taught me the meaning of humility, what we
                call Divine Humility.
                In the beginning, Sri Aurobindo would refer to the Mother quite distinctly
                as Mira. For some time afterwards (this may have extended over a period of
                years) we could notice that he stopped at the sound of M and uttered the
                full name Mira as, if after a slight hesitation. To us it looked rather
                queer at the time, but later we came to know the reason. Sri Aurobindo's
                lips were on the verge of saying "Mother"; but we had yet to get ready, so
                he ended with Mira instead of saying Mother. No one knows for certain on
                which particular date, at what auspicious moment, the word "Mother" was
                uttered by the lips of Sri Aurobindo. But that was a divine moment in
                unrecorded time, a moment of destiny in the history of man and earth; for it
                was at this supreme moment that the Mother was established on this material
                earth, in the external consciousness of man.
                I have said that so far the Mother had been to us a friend and companion, a
                comrade almost, at the most an object of reverence and respect. I was now
                about to start on my annual trip to Bengal – in those days I used to go
                there once every year, and that was perhaps my last trip. Before leaving, I
                felt a desire to see the Mother. The Mother had not yet come out of her
                seclusion and Sri Aurobindo had not yet retired behind the scenes. I said to
                him, "I would like to see Her before I go."- Her with a capital H, in place
                of the Mother, for we had not yet started using that name. Sri Aurobindo
                informed the Mother. The room now used by Champaklal was the Mother's room
                in those days. I entered and waited in the Prosperity room, for Sri
                Aurobindo used to meet people in the verandah in front. The Mother came in
                from her room and stood near the door. I approached her and said, "I am
                going," and then lay prostrate at her feet. That was my first Pranam to the
                Mother. She said, "Come back soon." This "come back soon" meant in the end,
                "come back for good."
                [http://sriaurobindoashram.com/Content.aspx?ContentURL=_StaticContent/SriAurobindoAshram/-09%20E-Library/-03%20Disciples/Nolini%20Kanta%20Gupta/Volume-7/-63_I%20Bow%20To%20The%20Mother.htm]
                --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
                >
                > Say, what???
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: devindersingh
                > Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 12:13 AM
                > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: [existlist] Re: Salvation or Deliverance
                >
                > The action of the Force does not exclude tapasya, concentration and the
                > need
                > of sadhana. Its action rather comes as an answer or a help to these
                > things.
                > It is true that it sometimes acts without them; it very often makes a
                > response in those who have not prepared themselves and do not seem to be
                > ready. But it does not always or usually act like that, nor is it a sort
                > of
                > magic that acts in the void or without any process. Nor is it a machine
                > that
                > acts in the same way on everybody or in all conditions and circumstances;
                > it
                > is not a physical but a spiritual Force and its action cannot be reduced
                > to
                > rules.
                > About the limitation of the power of the Guru to that of a teacher who
                > shows
                > the way but cannot help or guide, that is the conception of certain paths
                > of
                > yoga such as the pure Adwaitin and the Buddhist which say that you must
                > rely
                > upon yourself and that no one can help you; but even the pure Adwaitin
                > does
                > in fact rely upon the Guru and the chief mantra of Buddhism insists on
                > sharanam [ = refuge/shelter] to Buddha. For other paths of sadhana,
                > especially those which, like the Gita, accept the reality of the
                > individual
                > soul as an "eternal portion" of the Divine or which believe that Bhagavan
                > and the bhakta are both real, the help of the Guru has always been relied
                > upon as an indispensable aid. http://intyoga.online.fr/gurus.htm



                ------------------------------------

                Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining nothing!

                Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
              • eduardathome
                [Orthodox science itself is taking greater and greater cognisance today of the irrational move­ments of nature, even of physical nature. Intuition and
                Message 7 of 19 , Feb 12, 2013
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                  [Orthodox science itself is taking greater and greater cognisance today of
                  the irrational move­ments of nature, even of physical nature. Intuition and
                  instinct are now welcomed as surer and truer instruments of knowledge and
                  action than reason.]

                  What is your reference?? What scientist or group of scientists is saying
                  that intuition is a "truer instrument of knowledge"??

                  Is the rover Curiosity digging around Mars for intuition??

                  eduard

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: devindersingh
                  Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 6:24 AM
                  To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [existlist] Re: Salvation or Deliverance

                  Every age has claimed to be modern and sought to establish its
                  characteristic newness, the hall-mark that separates it from the preceding
                  age.

                  The scientific spirit, in one word, is rationalisation – rationalisation of
                  Mind as well as of Life. With regard to Mind, rationalisation means to get
                  knowledge exclusively on the data of the senses; it is the formulation, in
                  laws and principles, of facts observed by the physical organs, these laws
                  and principles being the categories of the arranging, classifying,
                  generalising faculty, called reason; its methodology also demands that the
                  laws are to be as few as possible embracing as many facts as possible.
                  Rationalisation of life means the government of life in accordance with
                  these laws, so that the wastage in natural life due to the diversity and
                  disparity off acts may be eliminated, at least minimised, and all movements
                  of life ordered and organised in view of a single and constant purpose
                  (which is perhaps the enhancement of the value of life). This
                  rationalisa­tion means further, in effect, mechanisation or efficiency, as
                  its protagonists would prefer to call it. However, mechanistic efficiency,
                  whether in the matter of knowledge or of life-of mind or of morals was the
                  motto of the early period of the gospel of science, the age of Huxley and
                  Haeckel, of Bentham and the Mills. The formula no longer holds good either
                  in the field of pure knowledge or in its application to life; it does not
                  embody the aspiration and outlook of the contemporary mind, in spite of such
                  inveterate rationalists as Russell and Wells or even Shaw (in Back to
                  Methuselah, for example), who seem to be already becoming an anachronism in
                  the present age.

                  The contemporary urge is not towards rationalisation, but rather towards
                  irrationalisation. Orthodox science itself is taking greater and greater
                  cognisance today of the irrational move­ments of nature, even of physical
                  nature. Intuition and instinct are now welcomed as surer and truer
                  instruments of knowledge and action than reason.
                  Another special feature of the modern consciousness is its "multiple
                  sightedness". The world, as it is presented to us, is no more than an
                  assemblage of view-points; and each point of observation forms its own
                  world-system. There is no one single ultimate truth; if there is any, there
                  is no possibility of its being known or perceived by the mind or the senses.
                  Things exist in relation to one another and for us they have no intrinsic
                  existence apart from the relations. The instrument itself that perceives is
                  the resultant of a system of relations. A truth is only a view-point; and as
                  the view-point shifts, the truth also varies accordingly. The cult of
                  Relativity is a significant expression of the modern consciousness.

                  [http://sriaurobindoashram.com/Content.aspx?ContentURL=_StaticContent/SriAurobindoAshram/-09%20E-Library/-03%20Disciples/Nolini%20Kanta%20Gupta/Volume-1/-29_Aspects%20of%20Modernism.html]

                  --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "devindersingh" wrote:
                  >
                  > The past ages of society were characterised more or less by a severe
                  > collectivism. In ancient Greece, more so in Sparta and in Rome, the
                  > individual had, properly speaking, no separate existence of his own; he
                  > was merged in the State or Nation. The individual was considered only as a
                  > limb of the collective being, had to live and labour for the common weal.
                  > The value attached to each person was strictly in reference to the output
                  > that the group to which he belonged received from him. Apart from this
                  > service for the general unit-the body politic-any personal endeavour and
                  > achievement, if not absolutely discouraged and repressed, was given a very
                  > secondary place of merit.
                  > The individual has his own law and urge of being and his own secret
                  > godhead. The collective godhead derides the individual godhead at its
                  > peril. The first movement of the reaction, how­ever, was a run to the
                  > other extremity; a stern collectivism gave birth to an intransigent
                  > individualism. The individual is sacred and inviolable, cost what it may.
                  > It does not matter what sort of individuality one seeks, it is enough if
                  > the thing is there. So the doctrine of individualism has come to set a
                  > premium on egoism and on forces that are disruptive of all social bonds.
                  > Each and every individual has the inherent right, which is also a duty, to
                  > follow his own impetus and impulse. Society is nothing but the battle
                  > ground for competing indi­vidualities – the strongest survive and the
                  > weakest go to the wall. Association and co-operation are instruments that
                  > the individual may use and utilise for his own growth and development but
                  > in the main they act as deterrents rather than as aids to the expression
                  > and expansion of his characteristic being. In reality, however, if we
                  > probe sufficiently deep into the matter we find that there is no such
                  > thing as corporate life and activity; what appears as such is only a
                  > camouflage for rigorous competition; at the best, there maybe only an
                  > offensive and defensive alliance-humanity fights against nature, and
                  > within humanity itself group fights against group and in the last
                  > analysis, within the group, the individual fights against the individual.
                  > This is the ultimate Law-the Dharma of creation.
                  > Now, what such an uncompromising individualism fails to recognise is that
                  > individuality and ego are not the same thing, that the individual may have
                  > his individuality intact and entire and yet sacrifice his ego, that the
                  > soul of man is a much greater thing than his vital being. It is simply
                  > ignoring the fact and denying the truth to say that man is only a fighting
                  > animal and not a loving god, that the self within the individual realises
                  > itself only through competition and not co-operation. It is an error to
                  > conceive of society as a mere parallelogram of forces, to suppose that it
                  > has risen simply out of the struggle of individual interests and continues
                  > to remain by that struggle. Struggle is only one aspect of the thing, a
                  > particular form at a particular stage, a temporary manifestation due to a
                  > particular system and a particular habit and training. It would be nearer
                  > the truth to say that society came into being with the demand of the
                  > individual soul to unite with the individual soul, with the stress of an
                  > Over-soul to express itself in a multitude of forms, diverse yet linked
                  > together and organised in perfect harmony. Only, the stress for union
                  > manifested itself first on the material plane as struggle: but this is
                  > meant to be corrected and transcended and is being continually corrected
                  > and transcended by a secret harmony, a real commonality and brotherhood
                  > and unity. The individual is not so self-centred as the individualists
                  > make him to be, his individuality has a much vaster orbit and fulfils
                  > itself only by fulfilling others. The scientists have begun to discover
                  > other instincts in man than those of struggle and competition; they now
                  > place at the origin of social grouping an instinct which they name the
                  > herd-instinct: but this is only a formulation in lower terms, a
                  > translation on the vital plane of a higher truth and reality-the
                  > fundamental oneness and accord of individuals and their spiritual
                  > impulsion to unite.
                  > [http://sriaurobindoashram.com/Content.aspx?ContentURL=_StaticContent/SriAurobindoAshram/-09%20E-Library/-03%20Disciples/Nolini%20Kanta%20Gupta/Volume-1/-06_On%20Communism.html]
                  > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "devindersingh" wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Eduard,
                  > > In India we live with this knowledge...The water Buffalo loves to wallow
                  > > in the mud. We let it revel.
                  > >
                  > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" wrote:
                  > >
                  > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Say, what???
                  > > > >Eduard, this the sort of gibberish that we will get from this guy. It
                  > > > >ia about as relevant to modernism as is the news about the pope.
                  > > > >These throwbacks to religion will just fade. Now most of the
                  > > > >catholics are in the poor ,southern hemisphere. I think the buddists
                  > > > >will be run over by the more agressive Islamists or the Chinese
                  > > > >Communists. At any rate it will take centuries and we would do
                  > > > >better to ignore them and tend to the business of northern man.
                  > > > >Ignore is the operant word as trying to deal with religous fanatics
                  > > > >just does not pay off. Set them against themselves and go about
                  > > > >building a better world here in our homes. The islamists Hindus and
                  > > > >Chinese are wildly over breed and will kill each other for food and
                  > > > >fuel. Our populations are under control and our food and energy needs
                  > > > >are being met. Let them deal with each other and we will deal with
                  > > > >them only at a profit. Listening to their ancient and losing ideas
                  > > > >is only a waste of time. Bill



                  ------------------------------------

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                • devindersingh
                  THERE is no doubt that Europe knows very well the art of life which in our country is totally lacking. In the East it is only Japan that knows it and knows it
                  Message 8 of 19 , Feb 12, 2013
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                    THERE is no doubt that Europe knows very well the art of life which in our country is totally lacking. In the East it is only Japan that knows it and knows it well enough. Our country on the whole and most of the East is at present steeped in inertia.
                    You have asked me the exact meaning of control of the senses and what is its necessity in life. For, in India we have held up this ideal on an elaborate scale, but to what effect? Europe cares little for it, yet she rules the world.
                    Firstly, whether self-control is necessary or not depends on the nature of our ideal. Self-control is only a particular means to a particular end. If the meaning of life is to live the life of nature, to possess power and influence – if the aim of life is to live in accordance with its impulses, then the question of self-control can never arise. In such a case the indulgence of the senses is the motive force.
                    There are two approaches to life: one is to follow the lead of the senses, to enrich life as much as possible by giving them full play and acquiring means for their satisfaction; the other is to move away from their range to a region inward or upward. Those who have taken to this path are unanimous that this path leads to the realm of supreme Peace, Light and Truth and that in fact the real character of life, its true fulfilment lie in this realm. In their view the sense-world is a world of deformations, narrow and full of impurities. Its material resources, however rich and vast, are really worth little. But man has also his inner senses which can help him to return to his home in the infinite Vast as a child of Immortality. This is the real sense of self-mastery: instead of swimming down the sense-current, one must swim back in the opposite direction. Instead of slipping down from the source of life one has to climb up into it.
                    You may ask: to what good? Suppose, one goes beyond the sphere of life to Vaikuntha, to Heaven, attains Nirvana and gets merged in the Brahman; in that case life is lost. And it is really what has happened in India. There has been no dearth of saints, seers and Avatars. But they live in their own worlds. The dwellers on our realistic plane are poor, distressed and miserable. True, there is a class of men who are not in the least perturbed at this state of things. Time was when from the mouth of a daughter of India rose the ringing voice:

                    "Of what use to me are the things that cannot make me immortal?"

                    Of course, there is no hard arid fast rule that there must be a barrier between life and beyond-life, between self-restraint and self-indulgence. A synthesis between the two may be difficult, but not impossible. Indeed, it was in India again that there developed such lines of synthetic sadhana. Rather it was Europe that gave evidence of this conflict and duality much more than India. We may remember the motto: "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, etc." By pointing to the path of self-restraint Christianity holds that it leads to the Kingdom of Christ and those who would remain chained down to their senses will remain in their low, unrefined state of nature. In Europe this conflict has led to two extremes. Self-restraint in Christianity has become self-mortification: but, on the other hand, when Europeans do not think it harmful to give a long rope to the senses, they have gone to the excess of unbridled license. In India there has been an attempt at a synthesis of these two aspects of life. Worldly life was taken as a preparation for or as a stepping-stone to the world beyond. So self-restraint was given a place not only in the sphere of sadhana for liberation, but also in the field of enjoyment. Hence we see in India as much preponderance of sattwic qualities as we see in Europe preponderance of rajasic dynamism. No doubt, the sattwic state easily lapses into the inertia of tamas. As a matter of fact, such has been the case in India. But rajas also meets the same end. The one slowly slides to extinction; the other shoots up like a rocket and falls like a burnt stick. Thus both suffer the same fate.
                    In general, life is the play-field of the senses. If self-control implies moving away from the senses, then it is not possible for it to have a place in life. But self-control may mean keeping the senses under control, under a system of rule and discipline. This is the popular sense of self-control: it is a graded withdrawal, a first step towards detachment. This is also how it developed in India. But, as a matter of fact, this popular approach to self-control is not India's speciality alone. Europe has given it a recognised place, not only in the Christian religious life but in her worldly life too. But it will not do to forget that the untrammelled freedom of the senses and their unbridled license have been accepted as an ideal specially in modern times, and it is confined to a particular community. What they are now attempting to reject as a bourgeois trait was one day an aid in the building up of the Euorpean society. To be sure, Europe was not so inclined towards detachment as India. Europe has gone in for the cultivation of the senses, but that does not mean that she has been sticking to an excessive and disorderly play of the senses. Neither Byron nor Oscar Wilde is the ultimate ideal of Europe. When the famous novelist Balzac used to sit down to write he would do so in a lonely place in a monk's tunic in order to help his one-pointed concentration. Napoleon, Caesar and Alexander were no helpless slaves of their senses. In fact, no country or race can build its greatness except on the foundation of self-control. It is not that self-control must necessarily be self-mortification. There can be a via media, and in ordinary life this is a necessity. Self-indulgence is the debit side. True, this side of Europe is much to the fore, but that leads one to think that she is living on her old capital, and it is not long before her capital runs short. The root of the capital is self-restraint, and it is the credit side, the side of accumulated power.
                    It may certainly be that the social, moral and other kinds of injunctions regarding control of the senses do not strictly apply any more to our modern life. Man's consciousness demands a wider and more liberal existence. Not a religion of mental conventions but a universal one founded on truth is what he wants. But that is altogether another matter. This problem and its solution will lead us into deeper waters. Hence we have to stop here.
                    [http://sriaurobindoashram.com/Content.aspx?ContentURL=_StaticContent/SriAurobindoAshram/-09%20E-Library/-03%20Disciples/Nolini%20Kanta%20Gupta/Volume-7/-45_Life%20and%20Self%20Control.htm]
                    --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
                    >
                    > Yep ... and in India you have gang rapes in late night buses. The whole
                    > country had to be divided because you could not live with each other. You
                    > have a segment of society that are designated as untouchable, albeit you are
                    > trying to change that. I don't think that India has anything to teach the
                    > West. Which isn't to suggest that the West is in much good shape either
                    > with morality and such. But if you want to get some message out, it would
                    > be nice if you could put it in a context and with phrasing that is
                    > understandable, regardless of the fact that you "live" with this knowledge.
                    >
                    > eduard
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: devindersingh
                    > Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 5:56 AM
                    > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: [existlist] Re: Salvation or Deliverance
                    >
                    > Eduard,
                    > In India we live with this knowledge...The water Buffalo loves to wallow in
                    > the mud. We let it revel.
                    >
                    > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" wrote:
                    >
                    > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Say, what???
                    > > >Eduard, this the sort of gibberish that we will get from this guy. It ia
                    > > >about as relevant to modernism as is the news about the pope. These
                    > > >throwbacks to religion will just fade. Now most of the catholics are in
                    > > >the poor ,southern hemisphere. I think the buddists will be run over by
                    > > >the more agressive Islamists or the Chinese Communists. At any rate it
                    > > >will take centuries and we would do better to ignore them and tend to
                    > > >the business of northern man. Ignore is the operant word as trying to
                    > > >deal with religous fanatics just does not pay off. Set them against
                    > > >themselves and go about building a better world here in our homes. The
                    > > >islamists Hindus and Chinese are wildly over breed and will kill each
                    > > >other for food and fuel. Our populations are under control and our food
                    > > >and energy needs are being met. Let them deal with each other and we will
                    > > >deal with them only at a profit. Listening to their ancient and losing
                    > > >ideas is only a waste of time. Bill
                  • devindersingh
                    You believe you are, does not matter what, a boy, a girl, a man, a woman, a dog, a horse, anything: a stone, the sea or the sun. You think you are all that,
                    Message 9 of 19 , Feb 12, 2013
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                      You believe you are, does not matter what, a boy, a girl, a man, a woman, a dog, a horse, anything: a stone, the sea or the sun. You think you are all that, instead of thinking that you are the One Divine. Indeed, if you had continued to think that you are the One Divine, there would have been no universe at all. The phenomenon of separation seems to have been indispensable, otherwise it would have remained always as it was.
                      But once the curve has been followed up and the Unity re-established, having profited by the multiplicity and division, the Unity found is of a higher quality: a Unity that knows itself, instead of a unity that does not know itself, for there is nothing else there which knows the other. Where the Unity is absolute, who or what can know the Unity? Hence the need of the appearance of something which is not that, in order to know what it is.
                      The original Will was towards forming individual beings that would be capable of becoming conscious again of their origin, although the procedure of individualisation compelled the individual to feel itself separate in order to be an individual. And the very moment it is separated, it is cut off from the original Consciousness, at least apparently, and falls into inconscience, for the only thing that is the Life of life is the Origin.
                      It is this inconscience that brings it about that you are not aware any longer of the Truth of your being. The secret of all deformation in the world is this inconscience which has been produced by the fact of separation from the Origin. And that explains why there are ugliness, wickedness, illness, suffering and death. It is because of this inconscience that although the Origin is there, it cannot manifest itself. It is there, that is why the world exists, but it is deformed in its expression, because it manifests itself through inconscience, ignorance and obscurity.
                      The only way to set everything right is to be conscious again and it is very simple.
                      You are That, you are in That.
                      To make you understand more easily, I may say, That is within us, That is part of our consciousness somewhere. Otherwise we would never be able to be conscious of it. If we did not carry the Divine within ourselves, in the essence of our being, we would never be aware of Him, it would be an impossible task.
                      There is only one thing to be found, not two.
                      If one goes round long enough one must come back to the same point. And once you come back, you have the impression that there was never anything to find outside. Yes, it is like that, there is nothing to find outside yourself.
                      [http://sriaurobindoashram.com/Content.aspx?ContentURL=_StaticContent/SriAurobindoAshram/-09%20E-Library/-03%20Disciples/Nolini%20Kanta%20Gupta/Volume-4/-047_The%20Origin.htm]
                      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
                      >
                      > Your statements here are most difficult to follow.
                      >
                      > First you say that there is "severe collectivism", then the birth of
                      > intransigent individualism. The pendulum swings. So you end up with the
                      > "herd instinct" which I suppose is back to "severe collectivism".
                      >
                      > Human society is not that simplistic. You would have to ignore some
                      > historical figures [depending upon what you mean by "past ages] who were
                      > individualists. You would also have to ignore religions which are
                      > collective and continue to be.
                      >
                      > Then you totally lost me with, "... the demand of the individual soul to
                      > unite with the individual soul, ...". How can a soul [assuming that such
                      > actually exists] demand to be united with itself?? Why should it make such
                      > a demand??
                      >
                      > eduard

                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: devindersingh
                      > Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 6:15 AM
                      > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: [existlist] Re: Salvation or Deliverance
                      >
                      > The past ages of society were characterised more or less by a severe
                      > collectivism. In ancient Greece, more so in Sparta and in Rome, the
                      > individual had, properly speaking, no separate existence of his own; he was
                      > merged in the State or Nation. The individual was considered only as a limb
                      > of the collective being, had to live and labour for the common weal. The
                      > value attached to each person was strictly in reference to the output that
                      > the group to which he belonged received from him. Apart from this service
                      > for the general unit-the body politic-any personal endeavour and
                      > achievement, if not absolutely discouraged and repressed, was given a very
                      > secondary place of merit.
                      > The individual has his own law and urge of being and his own secret godhead.
                      > The collective godhead derides the individual godhead at its peril. The
                      > first movement of the reaction, how­ever, was a run to the other extremity;
                      > a stern collectivism gave birth to an intransigent individualism. The
                      > individual is sacred and inviolable, cost what it may. It does not matter
                      > what sort of individuality one seeks, it is enough if the thing is there. So
                      > the doctrine of individualism has come to set a premium on egoism and on
                      > forces that are disruptive of all social bonds. Each and every individual
                      > has the inherent right, which is also a duty, to follow his own impetus and
                      > impulse. Society is nothing but the battle ground for competing
                      > indi­vidualities â€" the strongest survive and the weakest go to the wall.
                      > Association and co-operation are instruments that the individual may use and
                      > utilise for his own growth and development but in the main they act as
                      > deterrents rather than as aids to the expression and expansion of his
                      > characteristic being. In reality, however, if we probe sufficiently deep
                      > into the matter we find that there is no such thing as corporate life and
                      > activity; what appears as such is only a camouflage for rigorous
                      > competition; at the best, there maybe only an offensive and defensive
                      > alliance-humanity fights against nature, and within humanity itself group
                      > fights against group and in the last analysis, within the group, the
                      > individual fights against the individual. This is the ultimate Law-the
                      > Dharma of creation.
                      > Now, what such an uncompromising individualism fails to recognise is that
                      > individuality and ego are not the same thing, that the individual may have
                      > his individuality intact and entire and yet sacrifice his ego, that the soul
                      > of man is a much greater thing than his vital being. It is simply ignoring
                      > the fact and denying the truth to say that man is only a fighting animal and
                      > not a loving god, that the self within the individual realises itself only
                      > through competition and not co-operation. It is an error to conceive of
                      > society as a mere parallelogram of forces, to suppose that it has risen
                      > simply out of the struggle of individual interests and continues to remain
                      > by that struggle. Struggle is only one aspect of the thing, a particular
                      > form at a particular stage, a temporary manifestation due to a particular
                      > system and a particular habit and training. It would be nearer the truth to
                      > say that society came into being with the demand of the individual soul to
                      > unite with the individual soul, with the stress of an Over-soul to express
                      > itself in a multitude of forms, diverse yet linked together and organised in
                      > perfect harmony. Only, the stress for union manifested itself first on the
                      > material plane as struggle: but this is meant to be corrected and
                      > transcended and is being continually corrected and transcended by a secret
                      > harmony, a real commonality and brotherhood and unity. The individual is not
                      > so self-centred as the individualists make him to be, his individuality has
                      > a much vaster orbit and fulfils itself only by fulfilling others. The
                      > scientists have begun to discover other instincts in man than those of
                      > struggle and competition; they now place at the origin of social grouping an
                      > instinct which they name the herd-instinct: but this is only a formulation
                      > in lower terms, a translation on the vital plane of a higher truth and
                      > reality-the fundamental oneness and accord of individuals and their
                      > spiritual impulsion to unite.
                      > [http://sriaurobindoashram.com/Content.aspx?ContentURL=_StaticContent/SriAurobindoAshram/-09%20E-Library/-03%20Disciples/Nolini%20Kanta%20Gupta/Volume-1/-06_On%20Communism.html]
                      > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "devindersingh" wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Eduard,
                      > > In India we live with this knowledge...The water Buffalo loves to wallow
                      > > in the mud. We let it revel.
                      > >
                      > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" wrote:
                      > >
                      > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Say, what???
                      > > > >Eduard, this the sort of gibberish that we will get from this guy. It
                      > > > >ia about as relevant to modernism as is the news about the pope. These
                      > > > >throwbacks to religion will just fade. Now most of the catholics are
                      > > > >in the poor ,southern hemisphere. I think the buddists will be run over
                      > > > >by the more agressive Islamists or the Chinese Communists. At any rate
                      > > > >it will take centuries and we would do better to ignore them and tend
                      > > > >to the business of northern man. Ignore is the operant word as trying
                      > > > >to deal with religous fanatics just does not pay off. Set them against
                      > > > >themselves and go about building a better world here in our homes.
                      > > > >The islamists Hindus and Chinese are wildly over breed and will kill
                      > > > >each other for food and fuel. Our populations are under control and our
                      > > > >food and energy needs are being met. Let them deal with each other and
                      > > > >we will deal with them only at a profit. Listening to their ancient
                      > > > >and losing ideas is only a waste of time. Bill
                    • devindersingh
                      In short, Yoga is an attempt at discovering a new Law of Life , and after that discovery one has to mould and regulate one s life in accordance with it. This
                      Message 10 of 19 , Feb 12, 2013
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                        In short, Yoga is an attempt at discovering a new 'Law of Life', and after that discovery one has to mould and regulate one's life in accordance with it. This Law of Life is nothing other than the Law of Divine Life. What does it mean? It means that in a human being there are two planes, two kinds of nature and two laws of life – one belongs to the lower region, the other to the higher, one belongs to the terrestrial, the other to the supraterrestrial. This earth of clay or the lower region possesses body; life and mind. Man moves about according to the laws and customs, bondages and limitations of body, life and mind. But there exists a world, a plane above these three; and there the; knowledge of man does not depend on gross physical sensations or on syllogistic reasonings. There the knowledge is self-revealing, undeformed and infallible. It is called Intuition, Revelation. There the restless wild urge of action or blind agitations of numberless sensations have turned into a calm spiritual power and an unalloyed delight. And that plane too has a body of its own. But it is absolutely free from disease, decay and death that we find in the physical being. To leave aside the laws of body, life and mind and rise into the highest spiritual nature is called Yoga. But don't think, in doing Yoga you shall have to do away with this body, life and mind and keep aloof from the world and the earthly concerns. This theory is an absurdity on the face of it. The higher world can be contacted even while remaining in the body, life and mind, and it can also be infused into these three. The lower nature can be moulded by the infusion and the law of the higher. While residing in the world all earthly activities can be directed by the drive of that higher world.
                        It is a difficult task, but not impossible. It seems to be an impossibility or a mere ideal only, when I look upon myself alone, and think that I am a little, insignificant creature – how can I have the power to change the process of Nature that has been active from time immemorial? Will it be possible to do so even in hundreds of lives? But is it not that a ray of hope peeps into me the moment I cast a glance at the universe without taking me into account? We admit nowadays the law of evolution preached by the West. According to that law of evolution there existed Matter first in the creation, and then appeared the animal, finally the human being. That is to say, the Western science has recognised, in the first instance, evolution on lower planes of Nature. First body, then life and then mind. But nothing can be as absurd and illogical as to say that the evolution of Nature has stopped after reaching the mental level. In fact, Yoga tells us that above the mental level there is a plane called Supermind and above man there is Superman.
                        [http://sriaurobindoashram.com/Content.aspx?ContentURL=_StaticContent/SriAurobindoAshram/-09%20E-Library/-03%20Disciples/Nolini%20Kanta%20Gupta/Volume-7/-44_A%20Letter.htm]
                        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
                        >
                        > [Orthodox science itself is taking greater and greater cognisance today of
                        > the irrational move­ments of nature, even of physical nature. Intuition and
                        > instinct are now welcomed as surer and truer instruments of knowledge and
                        > action than reason.]
                        >
                        > What is your reference?? What scientist or group of scientists is saying
                        > that intuition is a "truer instrument of knowledge"??
                        >
                        > Is the rover Curiosity digging around Mars for intuition??
                        >
                        > eduard
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: devindersingh
                        > Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 6:24 AM
                        > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: [existlist] Re: Salvation or Deliverance
                        >
                        > Every age has claimed to be modern and sought to establish its
                        > characteristic newness, the hall-mark that separates it from the preceding
                        > age.
                        >
                        > The scientific spirit, in one word, is rationalisation â€" rationalisation of
                        > Mind as well as of Life. With regard to Mind, rationalisation means to get
                        > knowledge exclusively on the data of the senses; it is the formulation, in
                        > laws and principles, of facts observed by the physical organs, these laws
                        > and principles being the categories of the arranging, classifying,
                        > generalising faculty, called reason; its methodology also demands that the
                        > laws are to be as few as possible embracing as many facts as possible.
                        > Rationalisation of life means the government of life in accordance with
                        > these laws, so that the wastage in natural life due to the diversity and
                        > disparity off acts may be eliminated, at least minimised, and all movements
                        > of life ordered and organised in view of a single and constant purpose
                        > (which is perhaps the enhancement of the value of life). This
                        > rationalisa­tion means further, in effect, mechanisation or efficiency, as
                        > its protagonists would prefer to call it. However, mechanistic efficiency,
                        > whether in the matter of knowledge or of life-of mind or of morals was the
                        > motto of the early period of the gospel of science, the age of Huxley and
                        > Haeckel, of Bentham and the Mills. The formula no longer holds good either
                        > in the field of pure knowledge or in its application to life; it does not
                        > embody the aspiration and outlook of the contemporary mind, in spite of such
                        > inveterate rationalists as Russell and Wells or even Shaw (in Back to
                        > Methuselah, for example), who seem to be already becoming an anachronism in
                        > the present age.
                        >
                        > The contemporary urge is not towards rationalisation, but rather towards
                        > irrationalisation. Orthodox science itself is taking greater and greater
                        > cognisance today of the irrational move­ments of nature, even of physical
                        > nature. Intuition and instinct are now welcomed as surer and truer
                        > instruments of knowledge and action than reason.
                        > Another special feature of the modern consciousness is its "multiple
                        > sightedness". The world, as it is presented to us, is no more than an
                        > assemblage of view-points; and each point of observation forms its own
                        > world-system. There is no one single ultimate truth; if there is any, there
                        > is no possibility of its being known or perceived by the mind or the senses.
                        > Things exist in relation to one another and for us they have no intrinsic
                        > existence apart from the relations. The instrument itself that perceives is
                        > the resultant of a system of relations. A truth is only a view-point; and as
                        > the view-point shifts, the truth also varies accordingly. The cult of
                        > Relativity is a significant expression of the modern consciousness.
                        >
                        > [http://sriaurobindoashram.com/Content.aspx?ContentURL=_StaticContent/SriAurobindoAshram/-09%20E-Library/-03%20Disciples/Nolini%20Kanta%20Gupta/Volume-1/-29_Aspects%20of%20Modernism.html]
                        >
                        > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "devindersingh" wrote:
                        > >
                        > > The past ages of society were characterised more or less by a severe
                        > > collectivism. In ancient Greece, more so in Sparta and in Rome, the
                        > > individual had, properly speaking, no separate existence of his own; he
                        > > was merged in the State or Nation. The individual was considered only as a
                        > > limb of the collective being, had to live and labour for the common weal.
                        > > The value attached to each person was strictly in reference to the output
                        > > that the group to which he belonged received from him. Apart from this
                        > > service for the general unit-the body politic-any personal endeavour and
                        > > achievement, if not absolutely discouraged and repressed, was given a very
                        > > secondary place of merit.
                        > > The individual has his own law and urge of being and his own secret
                        > > godhead. The collective godhead derides the individual godhead at its
                        > > peril. The first movement of the reaction, how­ever, was a run to the
                        > > other extremity; a stern collectivism gave birth to an intransigent
                        > > individualism. The individual is sacred and inviolable, cost what it may.
                        > > It does not matter what sort of individuality one seeks, it is enough if
                        > > the thing is there. So the doctrine of individualism has come to set a
                        > > premium on egoism and on forces that are disruptive of all social bonds.
                        > > Each and every individual has the inherent right, which is also a duty, to
                        > > follow his own impetus and impulse. Society is nothing but the battle
                        > > ground for competing indi­vidualities â€" the strongest survive and the
                        > > weakest go to the wall. Association and co-operation are instruments that
                        > > the individual may use and utilise for his own growth and development but
                        > > in the main they act as deterrents rather than as aids to the expression
                        > > and expansion of his characteristic being. In reality, however, if we
                        > > probe sufficiently deep into the matter we find that there is no such
                        > > thing as corporate life and activity; what appears as such is only a
                        > > camouflage for rigorous competition; at the best, there maybe only an
                        > > offensive and defensive alliance-humanity fights against nature, and
                        > > within humanity itself group fights against group and in the last
                        > > analysis, within the group, the individual fights against the individual.
                        > > This is the ultimate Law-the Dharma of creation.
                        > > Now, what such an uncompromising individualism fails to recognise is that
                        > > individuality and ego are not the same thing, that the individual may have
                        > > his individuality intact and entire and yet sacrifice his ego, that the
                        > > soul of man is a much greater thing than his vital being. It is simply
                        > > ignoring the fact and denying the truth to say that man is only a fighting
                        > > animal and not a loving god, that the self within the individual realises
                        > > itself only through competition and not co-operation. It is an error to
                        > > conceive of society as a mere parallelogram of forces, to suppose that it
                        > > has risen simply out of the struggle of individual interests and continues
                        > > to remain by that struggle. Struggle is only one aspect of the thing, a
                        > > particular form at a particular stage, a temporary manifestation due to a
                        > > particular system and a particular habit and training. It would be nearer
                        > > the truth to say that society came into being with the demand of the
                        > > individual soul to unite with the individual soul, with the stress of an
                        > > Over-soul to express itself in a multitude of forms, diverse yet linked
                        > > together and organised in perfect harmony. Only, the stress for union
                        > > manifested itself first on the material plane as struggle: but this is
                        > > meant to be corrected and transcended and is being continually corrected
                        > > and transcended by a secret harmony, a real commonality and brotherhood
                        > > and unity. The individual is not so self-centred as the individualists
                        > > make him to be, his individuality has a much vaster orbit and fulfils
                        > > itself only by fulfilling others. The scientists have begun to discover
                        > > other instincts in man than those of struggle and competition; they now
                        > > place at the origin of social grouping an instinct which they name the
                        > > herd-instinct: but this is only a formulation in lower terms, a
                        > > translation on the vital plane of a higher truth and reality-the
                        > > fundamental oneness and accord of individuals and their spiritual
                        > > impulsion to unite.
                        > > [http://sriaurobindoashram.com/Content.aspx?ContentURL=_StaticContent/SriAurobindoAshram/-09%20E-Library/-03%20Disciples/Nolini%20Kanta%20Gupta/Volume-1/-06_On%20Communism.html]
                        > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "devindersingh" wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Eduard,
                        > > > In India we live with this knowledge...The water Buffalo loves to wallow
                        > > > in the mud. We let it revel.
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Say, what???
                        > > > > >Eduard, this the sort of gibberish that we will get from this guy. It
                        > > > > >ia about as relevant to modernism as is the news about the pope.
                        > > > > >These throwbacks to religion will just fade. Now most of the
                        > > > > >catholics are in the poor ,southern hemisphere. I think the buddists
                        > > > > >will be run over by the more agressive Islamists or the Chinese
                        > > > > >Communists. At any rate it will take centuries and we would do
                        > > > > >better to ignore them and tend to the business of northern man.
                        > > > > >Ignore is the operant word as trying to deal with religous fanatics
                        > > > > >just does not pay off. Set them against themselves and go about
                        > > > > >building a better world here in our homes. The islamists Hindus and
                        > > > > >Chinese are wildly over breed and will kill each other for food and
                        > > > > >fuel. Our populations are under control and our food and energy needs
                        > > > > >are being met. Let them deal with each other and we will deal with
                        > > > > >them only at a profit. Listening to their ancient and losing ideas
                        > > > > >is only a waste of time. Bill

                        > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
                      • eduardathome
                        I understand that it is desirable to have self-control instead of just following wherever our gratification of the sensory may lead us. I also understand that
                        Message 11 of 19 , Feb 13, 2013
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                          I understand that it is desirable to have self-control instead of just
                          following wherever our gratification of the sensory may lead us. I also
                          understand that with self-control comes a certain peace for reason that one
                          can, or thinks they are able, to see the bigger picture.

                          What is not understandable is the idea of an evolution to the divine. Or as
                          you have it here as a movement beyond life to a heaven, to Nirvana, and then
                          merging in the Brahman. Why?? Why should such a process exist?? As
                          opposed to humans just dying and their bodies melting back into the
                          biosphere.

                          I can, however, appreciate the idea. It has a similarity to the Kingdom of
                          Heaven in Christianity.

                          If one is to assume that this universe arose out of the Big Bang and will
                          eventually return in the Big Crunch or the Big Slap [depending what
                          cosmology one believes in], why should there also arise this process that
                          takes humans beyond the wall of death?? Why should there be a Brahman??
                          What does the Brahman do to justify its existence in the universe besides
                          collecting dead humans?? I could ask the same of Christians as to why there
                          should be a heaven in which the souls of dead humans are stored?

                          eduard

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: devindersingh
                          Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 9:05 PM
                          To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [existlist] Re: Salvation or Deliverance

                          THERE is no doubt that Europe knows very well the art of life which in our
                          country is totally lacking. In the East it is only Japan that knows it and
                          knows it well enough. Our country on the whole and most of the East is at
                          present steeped in inertia.
                          You have asked me the exact meaning of control of the senses and what is its
                          necessity in life. For, in India we have held up this ideal on an elaborate
                          scale, but to what effect? Europe cares little for it, yet she rules the
                          world.
                          Firstly, whether self-control is necessary or not depends on the nature of
                          our ideal. Self-control is only a particular means to a particular end. If
                          the meaning of life is to live the life of nature, to possess power and
                          influence – if the aim of life is to live in accordance with its impulses,
                          then the question of self-control can never arise. In such a case the
                          indulgence of the senses is the motive force.
                          There are two approaches to life: one is to follow the lead of the senses,
                          to enrich life as much as possible by giving them full play and acquiring
                          means for their satisfaction; the other is to move away from their range to
                          a region inward or upward. Those who have taken to this path are unanimous
                          that this path leads to the realm of supreme Peace, Light and Truth and that
                          in fact the real character of life, its true fulfilment lie in this realm.
                          In their view the sense-world is a world of deformations, narrow and full of
                          impurities. Its material resources, however rich and vast, are really worth
                          little. But man has also his inner senses which can help him to return to
                          his home in the infinite Vast as a child of Immortality. This is the real
                          sense of self-mastery: instead of swimming down the sense-current, one must
                          swim back in the opposite direction. Instead of slipping down from the
                          source of life one has to climb up into it.
                          You may ask: to what good? Suppose, one goes beyond the sphere of life to
                          Vaikuntha, to Heaven, attains Nirvana and gets merged in the Brahman; in
                          that case life is lost. And it is really what has happened in India. There
                          has been no dearth of saints, seers and Avatars. But they live in their own
                          worlds. The dwellers on our realistic plane are poor, distressed and
                          miserable. True, there is a class of men who are not in the least perturbed
                          at this state of things. Time was when from the mouth of a daughter of India
                          rose the ringing voice:

                          "Of what use to me are the things that cannot make me immortal?"

                          Of course, there is no hard arid fast rule that there must be a barrier
                          between life and beyond-life, between self-restraint and self-indulgence. A
                          synthesis between the two may be difficult, but not impossible. Indeed, it
                          was in India again that there developed such lines of synthetic sadhana.
                          Rather it was Europe that gave evidence of this conflict and duality much
                          more than India. We may remember the motto: "Render unto Caesar what is
                          Caesar's, etc." By pointing to the path of self-restraint Christianity holds
                          that it leads to the Kingdom of Christ and those who would remain chained
                          down to their senses will remain in their low, unrefined state of nature. In
                          Europe this conflict has led to two extremes. Self-restraint in Christianity
                          has become self-mortification: but, on the other hand, when Europeans do not
                          think it harmful to give a long rope to the senses, they have gone to the
                          excess of unbridled license. In India there has been an attempt at a
                          synthesis of these two aspects of life. Worldly life was taken as a
                          preparation for or as a stepping-stone to the world beyond. So
                          self-restraint was given a place not only in the sphere of sadhana for
                          liberation, but also in the field of enjoyment. Hence we see in India as
                          much preponderance of sattwic qualities as we see in Europe preponderance of
                          rajasic dynamism. No doubt, the sattwic state easily lapses into the inertia
                          of tamas. As a matter of fact, such has been the case in India. But rajas
                          also meets the same end. The one slowly slides to extinction; the other
                          shoots up like a rocket and falls like a burnt stick. Thus both suffer the
                          same fate.
                          In general, life is the play-field of the senses. If self-control implies
                          moving away from the senses, then it is not possible for it to have a place
                          in life. But self-control may mean keeping the senses under control, under a
                          system of rule and discipline. This is the popular sense of self-control: it
                          is a graded withdrawal, a first step towards detachment. This is also how it
                          developed in India. But, as a matter of fact, this popular approach to
                          self-control is not India's speciality alone. Europe has given it a
                          recognised place, not only in the Christian religious life but in her
                          worldly life too. But it will not do to forget that the untrammelled freedom
                          of the senses and their unbridled license have been accepted as an ideal
                          specially in modern times, and it is confined to a particular community.
                          What they are now attempting to reject as a bourgeois trait was one day an
                          aid in the building up of the Euorpean society. To be sure, Europe was not
                          so inclined towards detachment as India. Europe has gone in for the
                          cultivation of the senses, but that does not mean that she has been sticking
                          to an excessive and disorderly play of the senses. Neither Byron nor Oscar
                          Wilde is the ultimate ideal of Europe. When the famous novelist Balzac used
                          to sit down to write he would do so in a lonely place in a monk's tunic in
                          order to help his one-pointed concentration. Napoleon, Caesar and Alexander
                          were no helpless slaves of their senses. In fact, no country or race can
                          build its greatness except on the foundation of self-control. It is not that
                          self-control must necessarily be self-mortification. There can be a via
                          media, and in ordinary life this is a necessity. Self-indulgence is the
                          debit side. True, this side of Europe is much to the fore, but that leads
                          one to think that she is living on her old capital, and it is not long
                          before her capital runs short. The root of the capital is self-restraint,
                          and it is the credit side, the side of accumulated power.
                          It may certainly be that the social, moral and other kinds of injunctions
                          regarding control of the senses do not strictly apply any more to our modern
                          life. Man's consciousness demands a wider and more liberal existence. Not a
                          religion of mental conventions but a universal one founded on truth is what
                          he wants. But that is altogether another matter. This problem and its
                          solution will lead us into deeper waters. Hence we have to stop here.
                          [http://sriaurobindoashram.com/Content.aspx?ContentURL=_StaticContent/SriAurobindoAshram/-09%20E-Library/-03%20Disciples/Nolini%20Kanta%20Gupta/Volume-7/-45_Life%20and%20Self%20Control.htm]
                          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
                          >
                          > Yep ... and in India you have gang rapes in late night buses. The whole
                          > country had to be divided because you could not live with each other. You
                          > have a segment of society that are designated as untouchable, albeit you
                          > are
                          > trying to change that. I don't think that India has anything to teach the
                          > West. Which isn't to suggest that the West is in much good shape either
                          > with morality and such. But if you want to get some message out, it would
                          > be nice if you could put it in a context and with phrasing that is
                          > understandable, regardless of the fact that you "live" with this
                          > knowledge.
                          >
                          > eduard
                          >
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: devindersingh
                          > Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 5:56 AM
                          > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: [existlist] Re: Salvation or Deliverance
                          >
                          > Eduard,
                          > In India we live with this knowledge...The water Buffalo loves to wallow
                          > in
                          > the mud. We let it revel.
                          >
                          > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" wrote:
                          >
                          > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Say, what???
                          > > >Eduard, this the sort of gibberish that we will get from this guy. It
                          > > >ia
                          > > >about as relevant to modernism as is the news about the pope. These
                          > > >throwbacks to religion will just fade. Now most of the catholics are
                          > > >in
                          > > >the poor ,southern hemisphere. I think the buddists will be run over by
                          > > >the more agressive Islamists or the Chinese Communists. At any rate it
                          > > >will take centuries and we would do better to ignore them and tend to
                          > > >the business of northern man. Ignore is the operant word as trying to
                          > > >deal with religous fanatics just does not pay off. Set them against
                          > > >themselves and go about building a better world here in our homes.
                          > > >The
                          > > >islamists Hindus and Chinese are wildly over breed and will kill each
                          > > >other for food and fuel. Our populations are under control and our food
                          > > >and energy needs are being met. Let them deal with each other and we
                          > > >will
                          > > >deal with them only at a profit. Listening to their ancient and losing
                          > > >ideas is only a waste of time. Bill




                          ------------------------------------

                          Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining nothing!

                          Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
                        • eduardathome
                          In your copy/paste you omitted the important starting sentence of .... ONE has forgotten. From the fact of separation from Sat-Chit-Ananda comes forgetfulness
                          Message 12 of 19 , Feb 13, 2013
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                            In your copy/paste you omitted the important starting sentence of ....

                            "ONE has forgotten. From the fact of separation from Sat-Chit-Ananda comes
                            forgetfulness of what one is. "

                            Actually, this whole exercise is pointless. All you are doing is to do a
                            search on the Sri Aurobindo Ashram site and the pasting the answer on
                            Existlist. It's pointless, since I could do the same. You are not
                            answering my questions. There is no discussion here.

                            eduard

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: devindersingh
                            Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 10:04 PM
                            To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [existlist] Re: Salvation or Deliverance

                            You believe you are, does not matter what, a boy, a girl, a man, a woman, a
                            dog, a horse, anything: a stone, the sea or the sun. You think you are all
                            that, instead of thinking that you are the One Divine. Indeed, if you had
                            continued to think that you are the One Divine, there would have been no
                            universe at all. The phenomenon of separation seems to have been
                            indispensable, otherwise it would have remained always as it was.
                            But once the curve has been followed up and the Unity re-established, having
                            profited by the multiplicity and division, the Unity found is of a higher
                            quality: a Unity that knows itself, instead of a unity that does not know
                            itself, for there is nothing else there which knows the other. Where the
                            Unity is absolute, who or what can know the Unity? Hence the need of the
                            appearance of something which is not that, in order to know what it is.
                            The original Will was towards forming individual beings that would be
                            capable of becoming conscious again of their origin, although the procedure
                            of individualisation compelled the individual to feel itself separate in
                            order to be an individual. And the very moment it is separated, it is cut
                            off from the original Consciousness, at least apparently, and falls into
                            inconscience, for the only thing that is the Life of life is the Origin.
                            It is this inconscience that brings it about that you are not aware any
                            longer of the Truth of your being. The secret of all deformation in the
                            world is this inconscience which has been produced by the fact of separation
                            from the Origin. And that explains why there are ugliness, wickedness,
                            illness, suffering and death. It is because of this inconscience that
                            although the Origin is there, it cannot manifest itself. It is there, that
                            is why the world exists, but it is deformed in its expression, because it
                            manifests itself through inconscience, ignorance and obscurity.
                            The only way to set everything right is to be conscious again and it is very
                            simple.
                            You are That, you are in That.
                            To make you understand more easily, I may say, That is within us, That is
                            part of our consciousness somewhere. Otherwise we would never be able to be
                            conscious of it. If we did not carry the Divine within ourselves, in the
                            essence of our being, we would never be aware of Him, it would be an
                            impossible task.
                            There is only one thing to be found, not two.
                            If one goes round long enough one must come back to the same point. And once
                            you come back, you have the impression that there was never anything to find
                            outside. Yes, it is like that, there is nothing to find outside yourself.
                            [http://sriaurobindoashram.com/Content.aspx?ContentURL=_StaticContent/SriAurobindoAshram/-09%20E-Library/-03%20Disciples/Nolini%20Kanta%20Gupta/Volume-4/-047_The%20Origin.htm]
                            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
                            >
                            > Your statements here are most difficult to follow.
                            >
                            > First you say that there is "severe collectivism", then the birth of
                            > intransigent individualism. The pendulum swings. So you end up with the
                            > "herd instinct" which I suppose is back to "severe collectivism".
                            >
                            > Human society is not that simplistic. You would have to ignore some
                            > historical figures [depending upon what you mean by "past ages] who were
                            > individualists. You would also have to ignore religions which are
                            > collective and continue to be.
                            >
                            > Then you totally lost me with, "... the demand of the individual soul to
                            > unite with the individual soul, ...". How can a soul [assuming that such
                            > actually exists] demand to be united with itself?? Why should it make
                            > such
                            > a demand??
                            >
                            > eduard

                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: devindersingh
                            > Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 6:15 AM
                            > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: [existlist] Re: Salvation or Deliverance
                            >
                            > The past ages of society were characterised more or less by a severe
                            > collectivism. In ancient Greece, more so in Sparta and in Rome, the
                            > individual had, properly speaking, no separate existence of his own; he
                            > was
                            > merged in the State or Nation. The individual was considered only as a
                            > limb
                            > of the collective being, had to live and labour for the common weal. The
                            > value attached to each person was strictly in reference to the output that
                            > the group to which he belonged received from him. Apart from this service
                            > for the general unit-the body politic-any personal endeavour and
                            > achievement, if not absolutely discouraged and repressed, was given a very
                            > secondary place of merit.
                            > The individual has his own law and urge of being and his own secret
                            > godhead.
                            > The collective godhead derides the individual godhead at its peril. The
                            > first movement of the reaction, how­ever, was a run to the other
                            > extremity;
                            > a stern collectivism gave birth to an intransigent individualism. The
                            > individual is sacred and inviolable, cost what it may. It does not matter
                            > what sort of individuality one seeks, it is enough if the thing is there.
                            > So
                            > the doctrine of individualism has come to set a premium on egoism and on
                            > forces that are disruptive of all social bonds. Each and every individual
                            > has the inherent right, which is also a duty, to follow his own impetus
                            > and
                            > impulse. Society is nothing but the battle ground for competing
                            > indi­vidualities â€" the strongest survive and the weakest go to the
                            > wall.
                            > Association and co-operation are instruments that the individual may use
                            > and
                            > utilise for his own growth and development but in the main they act as
                            > deterrents rather than as aids to the expression and expansion of his
                            > characteristic being. In reality, however, if we probe sufficiently deep
                            > into the matter we find that there is no such thing as corporate life and
                            > activity; what appears as such is only a camouflage for rigorous
                            > competition; at the best, there maybe only an offensive and defensive
                            > alliance-humanity fights against nature, and within humanity itself group
                            > fights against group and in the last analysis, within the group, the
                            > individual fights against the individual. This is the ultimate Law-the
                            > Dharma of creation.
                            > Now, what such an uncompromising individualism fails to recognise is that
                            > individuality and ego are not the same thing, that the individual may have
                            > his individuality intact and entire and yet sacrifice his ego, that the
                            > soul
                            > of man is a much greater thing than his vital being. It is simply ignoring
                            > the fact and denying the truth to say that man is only a fighting animal
                            > and
                            > not a loving god, that the self within the individual realises itself only
                            > through competition and not co-operation. It is an error to conceive of
                            > society as a mere parallelogram of forces, to suppose that it has risen
                            > simply out of the struggle of individual interests and continues to remain
                            > by that struggle. Struggle is only one aspect of the thing, a particular
                            > form at a particular stage, a temporary manifestation due to a particular
                            > system and a particular habit and training. It would be nearer the truth
                            > to
                            > say that society came into being with the demand of the individual soul to
                            > unite with the individual soul, with the stress of an Over-soul to express
                            > itself in a multitude of forms, diverse yet linked together and organised
                            > in
                            > perfect harmony. Only, the stress for union manifested itself first on the
                            > material plane as struggle: but this is meant to be corrected and
                            > transcended and is being continually corrected and transcended by a secret
                            > harmony, a real commonality and brotherhood and unity. The individual is
                            > not
                            > so self-centred as the individualists make him to be, his individuality
                            > has
                            > a much vaster orbit and fulfils itself only by fulfilling others. The
                            > scientists have begun to discover other instincts in man than those of
                            > struggle and competition; they now place at the origin of social grouping
                            > an
                            > instinct which they name the herd-instinct: but this is only a formulation
                            > in lower terms, a translation on the vital plane of a higher truth and
                            > reality-the fundamental oneness and accord of individuals and their
                            > spiritual impulsion to unite.
                            > [http://sriaurobindoashram.com/Content.aspx?ContentURL=_StaticContent/SriAurobindoAshram/-09%20E-Library/-03%20Disciples/Nolini%20Kanta%20Gupta/Volume-1/-06_On%20Communism.html]
                            > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "devindersingh" wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Eduard,
                            > > In India we live with this knowledge...The water Buffalo loves to wallow
                            > > in the mud. We let it revel.
                            > >
                            > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" wrote:
                            > >
                            > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Say, what???
                            > > > >Eduard, this the sort of gibberish that we will get from this guy. It
                            > > > >ia about as relevant to modernism as is the news about the pope.
                            > > > >These
                            > > > >throwbacks to religion will just fade. Now most of the catholics are
                            > > > >in the poor ,southern hemisphere. I think the buddists will be run
                            > > > >over
                            > > > >by the more agressive Islamists or the Chinese Communists. At any
                            > > > >rate
                            > > > >it will take centuries and we would do better to ignore them and
                            > > > >tend
                            > > > >to the business of northern man. Ignore is the operant word as
                            > > > >trying
                            > > > >to deal with religous fanatics just does not pay off. Set them
                            > > > >against
                            > > > >themselves and go about building a better world here in our homes.
                            > > > >The islamists Hindus and Chinese are wildly over breed and will
                            > > > >kill
                            > > > >each other for food and fuel. Our populations are under control and
                            > > > >our
                            > > > >food and energy needs are being met. Let them deal with each other
                            > > > >and
                            > > > >we will deal with them only at a profit. Listening to their ancient
                            > > > >and losing ideas is only a waste of time. Bill



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                          • devindersingh
                            Oh! civilisation. Polite conversations, Following gang-bangs!
                            Message 13 of 19 , Feb 13, 2013
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                              Oh! civilisation.
                              Polite conversations,
                              Following gang-bangs!

                              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
                              >
                              > In your copy/paste you omitted the important starting sentence of ....
                              >
                              > "ONE has forgotten. From the fact of separation from Sat-Chit-Ananda comes
                              > forgetfulness of what one is. "
                              >
                              > Actually, this whole exercise is pointless. All you are doing is to do a
                              > search on the Sri Aurobindo Ashram site and the pasting the answer on
                              > Existlist. It's pointless, since I could do the same. You are not
                              > answering my questions. There is no discussion here.
                              >
                              > eduard
                              >
                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: devindersingh
                              > Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 10:04 PM
                              > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: [existlist] Re: Salvation or Deliverance
                              >
                              > You believe you are, does not matter what, a boy, a girl, a man, a woman, a
                              > dog, a horse, anything: a stone, the sea or the sun. You think you are all
                              > that, instead of thinking that you are the One Divine. Indeed, if you had
                              > continued to think that you are the One Divine, there would have been no
                              > universe at all. The phenomenon of separation seems to have been
                              > indispensable, otherwise it would have remained always as it was.
                              > But once the curve has been followed up and the Unity re-established, having
                              > profited by the multiplicity and division, the Unity found is of a higher
                              > quality: a Unity that knows itself, instead of a unity that does not know
                              > itself, for there is nothing else there which knows the other. Where the
                              > Unity is absolute, who or what can know the Unity? Hence the need of the
                              > appearance of something which is not that, in order to know what it is.
                              > The original Will was towards forming individual beings that would be
                              > capable of becoming conscious again of their origin, although the procedure
                              > of individualisation compelled the individual to feel itself separate in
                              > order to be an individual. And the very moment it is separated, it is cut
                              > off from the original Consciousness, at least apparently, and falls into
                              > inconscience, for the only thing that is the Life of life is the Origin.
                              > It is this inconscience that brings it about that you are not aware any
                              > longer of the Truth of your being. The secret of all deformation in the
                              > world is this inconscience which has been produced by the fact of separation
                              > from the Origin. And that explains why there are ugliness, wickedness,
                              > illness, suffering and death. It is because of this inconscience that
                              > although the Origin is there, it cannot manifest itself. It is there, that
                              > is why the world exists, but it is deformed in its expression, because it
                              > manifests itself through inconscience, ignorance and obscurity.
                              > The only way to set everything right is to be conscious again and it is very
                              > simple.
                              > You are That, you are in That.
                              > To make you understand more easily, I may say, That is within us, That is
                              > part of our consciousness somewhere. Otherwise we would never be able to be
                              > conscious of it. If we did not carry the Divine within ourselves, in the
                              > essence of our being, we would never be aware of Him, it would be an
                              > impossible task.
                              > There is only one thing to be found, not two.
                              > If one goes round long enough one must come back to the same point. And once
                              > you come back, you have the impression that there was never anything to find
                              > outside. Yes, it is like that, there is nothing to find outside yourself.
                              > [http://sriaurobindoashram.com/Content.aspx?ContentURL=_StaticContent/SriAurobindoAshram/-09%20E-Library/-03%20Disciples/Nolini%20Kanta%20Gupta/Volume-4/-047_The%20Origin.htm]
                              > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Your statements here are most difficult to follow.
                              > >
                              > > First you say that there is "severe collectivism", then the birth of
                              > > intransigent individualism. The pendulum swings. So you end up with the
                              > > "herd instinct" which I suppose is back to "severe collectivism".
                              > >
                              > > Human society is not that simplistic. You would have to ignore some
                              > > historical figures [depending upon what you mean by "past ages] who were
                              > > individualists. You would also have to ignore religions which are
                              > > collective and continue to be.
                              > >
                              > > Then you totally lost me with, "... the demand of the individual soul to
                              > > unite with the individual soul, ...". How can a soul [assuming that such
                              > > actually exists] demand to be united with itself?? Why should it make
                              > > such
                              > > a demand??
                              > >
                              > > eduard
                              >
                              > > -----Original Message-----
                              > > From: devindersingh
                              > > Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 6:15 AM
                              > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                              > > Subject: [existlist] Re: Salvation or Deliverance
                              > >
                              > > The past ages of society were characterised more or less by a severe
                              > > collectivism. In ancient Greece, more so in Sparta and in Rome, the
                              > > individual had, properly speaking, no separate existence of his own; he
                              > > was
                              > > merged in the State or Nation. The individual was considered only as a
                              > > limb
                              > > of the collective being, had to live and labour for the common weal. The
                              > > value attached to each person was strictly in reference to the output that
                              > > the group to which he belonged received from him. Apart from this service
                              > > for the general unit-the body politic-any personal endeavour and
                              > > achievement, if not absolutely discouraged and repressed, was given a very
                              > > secondary place of merit.
                              > > The individual has his own law and urge of being and his own secret
                              > > godhead.
                              > > The collective godhead derides the individual godhead at its peril. The
                              > > first movement of the reaction, how­ever, was a run to the other
                              > > extremity;
                              > > a stern collectivism gave birth to an intransigent individualism. The
                              > > individual is sacred and inviolable, cost what it may. It does not matter
                              > > what sort of individuality one seeks, it is enough if the thing is there.
                              > > So
                              > > the doctrine of individualism has come to set a premium on egoism and on
                              > > forces that are disruptive of all social bonds. Each and every individual
                              > > has the inherent right, which is also a duty, to follow his own impetus
                              > > and
                              > > impulse. Society is nothing but the battle ground for competing
                              > > indi­vidualities â€" the strongest survive and the weakest go to the
                              > > wall.
                              > > Association and co-operation are instruments that the individual may use
                              > > and
                              > > utilise for his own growth and development but in the main they act as
                              > > deterrents rather than as aids to the expression and expansion of his
                              > > characteristic being. In reality, however, if we probe sufficiently deep
                              > > into the matter we find that there is no such thing as corporate life and
                              > > activity; what appears as such is only a camouflage for rigorous
                              > > competition; at the best, there maybe only an offensive and defensive
                              > > alliance-humanity fights against nature, and within humanity itself group
                              > > fights against group and in the last analysis, within the group, the
                              > > individual fights against the individual. This is the ultimate Law-the
                              > > Dharma of creation.
                              > > Now, what such an uncompromising individualism fails to recognise is that
                              > > individuality and ego are not the same thing, that the individual may have
                              > > his individuality intact and entire and yet sacrifice his ego, that the
                              > > soul
                              > > of man is a much greater thing than his vital being. It is simply ignoring
                              > > the fact and denying the truth to say that man is only a fighting animal
                              > > and
                              > > not a loving god, that the self within the individual realises itself only
                              > > through competition and not co-operation. It is an error to conceive of
                              > > society as a mere parallelogram of forces, to suppose that it has risen
                              > > simply out of the struggle of individual interests and continues to remain
                              > > by that struggle. Struggle is only one aspect of the thing, a particular
                              > > form at a particular stage, a temporary manifestation due to a particular
                              > > system and a particular habit and training. It would be nearer the truth
                              > > to
                              > > say that society came into being with the demand of the individual soul to
                              > > unite with the individual soul, with the stress of an Over-soul to express
                              > > itself in a multitude of forms, diverse yet linked together and organised
                              > > in
                              > > perfect harmony. Only, the stress for union manifested itself first on the
                              > > material plane as struggle: but this is meant to be corrected and
                              > > transcended and is being continually corrected and transcended by a secret
                              > > harmony, a real commonality and brotherhood and unity. The individual is
                              > > not
                              > > so self-centred as the individualists make him to be, his individuality
                              > > has
                              > > a much vaster orbit and fulfils itself only by fulfilling others. The
                              > > scientists have begun to discover other instincts in man than those of
                              > > struggle and competition; they now place at the origin of social grouping
                              > > an
                              > > instinct which they name the herd-instinct: but this is only a formulation
                              > > in lower terms, a translation on the vital plane of a higher truth and
                              > > reality-the fundamental oneness and accord of individuals and their
                              > > spiritual impulsion to unite.
                              > > [http://sriaurobindoashram.com/Content.aspx?ContentURL=_StaticContent/SriAurobindoAshram/-09%20E-Library/-03%20Disciples/Nolini%20Kanta%20Gupta/Volume-1/-06_On%20Communism.html]
                              > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "devindersingh" wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > Eduard,
                              > > > In India we live with this knowledge...The water Buffalo loves to wallow
                              > > > in the mud. We let it revel.
                              > > >
                              > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Say, what???
                              > > > > >Eduard, this the sort of gibberish that we will get from this guy. It
                              > > > > >ia about as relevant to modernism as is the news about the pope.
                              > > > > >These
                              > > > > >throwbacks to religion will just fade. Now most of the catholics are
                              > > > > >in the poor ,southern hemisphere. I think the buddists will be run
                              > > > > >over
                              > > > > >by the more agressive Islamists or the Chinese Communists. At any
                              > > > > >rate
                              > > > > >it will take centuries and we would do better to ignore them and
                              > > > > >tend
                              > > > > >to the business of northern man. Ignore is the operant word as
                              > > > > >trying
                              > > > > >to deal with religous fanatics just does not pay off. Set them
                              > > > > >against
                              > > > > >themselves and go about building a better world here in our homes.
                              > > > > >The islamists Hindus and Chinese are wildly over breed and will
                              > > > > >kill
                              > > > > >each other for food and fuel. Our populations are under control and
                              > > > > >our
                              > > > > >food and energy needs are being met. Let them deal with each other
                              > > > > >and
                              > > > > >we will deal with them only at a profit. Listening to their ancient
                              > > > > >and losing ideas is only a waste of time. Bill
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------
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