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Re: The boy in the hole

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  • Mary
    What happens is authentic opposition with no guarantees of the outcome. Mary
    Message 1 of 25 , Feb 5, 2013
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      What happens is authentic opposition with no guarantees of the outcome.

      Mary

      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
      >
      > I don't think that one can draw a fine line between people "doing what they
      > can" and existentialism. I take Existentialism as a sort of philosophy for
      > the individual. It doesn't have an impact on a more public plain. Yes one
      > should authentic to oneself, but what happens when you get a real sadistic
      > nut-case who is authentic to himself by hurting others. If you are
      > following the action in Mali, you will know of Mohammed Moussa who had
      > Timbuktu his hands for the past 10 months until the French drove him out.
      > It was he who directed the Islamic police in applying a strict Sharia law.
      > He ordered women to be completely covered and the men to grow beards. He
      > was also responsible for having women raped, whipping, cutting off a hand or
      > foot or both of thieves. You could get caught up with his "police" for
      > whatever even that supposed. Moussa was being authentic.
      >
      > eduard
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Mary
      > Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 2:32 PM
      > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [existlist] Re: The boy in the hole
      >
      > Let me restate this. Any individual, whether employed in the private or the
      > public sector, cannot be excused from doing what they can. The reason
      > existentialism is not just 'what everybody does anyway' is because it's a
      > call for authenticity and doing what is worth your trouble. That there are
      > no guarantees does impact our decisions but only if we don't chose. If we
      > don't choose, someone else chooses for us. Freedom isn't even possible if no
      > one is authentically choosing. For example, if someone declares they're just
      > doing their job or that money is their primary goal, you know where they
      > stand. Reacting to inauthentic people is like shadow boxing; taking a
      > position is the only way someone else is free to take theirs.
      >
      > Mary
      >
      > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" wrote:
      > >
      > > Oh eduard. Those "security people" are just doing what they can. Shit
      > > happens. Not. This is why existentialism is more about 'what you can do'
      > > and how the personal intersects with the public than hindsight about every
      > > path is the same. What you think directly relates to how you act. If
      > > liberty is important, then what the individual does, whether a private
      > > citizen or a government, is important, is worth the trouble, is life and
      > > death for many. What's equally threatening to liberty is doing nothing.
      > >
      > > Mary
      > >
      > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
      > > >
      > > > You mean "Asperger's".
      > > >
      > > > The idea of chips is disturbing. The security people won't stop until
      > > > they
      > > > have chips in everyone. Big threat to liberty.
      > > >
      > > > eduard
      > > >
      > > > -----Original Message-----
      > > > From: William
      > > > Sent: Monday, February 04, 2013 6:07 PM
      > > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      > > > Subject: [existlist] The boy in the hole
      > > >
      > > > We got the whole nut bag treatment with this story. Gun violence,
      > > > veteran
      > > > acting out, child abduction, murder, kidnapping and suicide. It
      > > > appears
      > > > the FBI rescued the child who had Augsburgers. This story is one of
      > > > modern
      > > > disfunctionality. and would seem to defy any conclusion or attempt at
      > > > prevention.
      > > > Remember Dirty Harry when the nut job invades the school bus? I wonder
      > > > if
      > > > Dikes did?
      > > > It may be time to put up the drones and canvass the crazies all the
      > > > time.
      > > > Can the computers do that? can the democracy stand it. We may be able
      > > > to
      > > > detect a weapon and any perp with no gun rights could be intradicted
      > > > for
      > > > cause. The cops stop him and confiscate his weapon and take him to a
      > > > treatment holding facility. It would probably require implanting a chip
      > > > that identifies the suspect as a mental problem. Gun plus + chip =
      > > > take
      > > > down. I can see this shaping up and think it is big brother to the
      > > > maximum
      > > > extent. The crazies just keep pushing the envelope of evil and is
      > > > actually
      > > > domestic terrorism. The methodes that work against Islamic terrorism
      > > > could work for this domestic scourge. I hate the thought of it but
      > > > know
      > > > it will soon be proposed. A nut job with a gun will be taken down
      > > > automatically and we probably already have the technology with the
      > > > drones.
      > > > Welcome to the brave new world. Bill
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > ------------------------------------
      > > >
      > > > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining
      > > > nothing!
      > > >
      > > > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
      > > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining nothing!
      >
      > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
      >
    • William
      When it rains it pours. Now we know that the FBI had sound and visual in the bunker. They will not say how that was accomplished. This was in a sealed bunker.
      Message 2 of 25 , Feb 5, 2013
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        When it rains it pours. Now we know that the FBI had sound and visual in the bunker. They will not say how that was accomplished. This was in a sealed bunker. The tech is leaping forward and remains classified. There is only one way to oppose such spying and that is to speak about it in the open. I do not know how such things are done but I see the reports they can and are being done. So to be authentic I need to talk about it. Someone will know more than I and they may put an answer togeather. Public domain has a level of safty so I do not want to know anything classified. Putting open source material out there and letting someone with a greater depth of knowledge fill out the equation does happen Deep throat played that game backward in the Watergate. So we have to keep talking in the open, not in code and not in any conspiracy. Let the ideas fly and see what can be substantiated. Its about all we can do. Bill

        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" wrote:
        >
        > What happens is authentic opposition with no guarantees of the outcome.
        >
        > Mary
        >
        > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
        > >
        > > I don't think that one can draw a fine line between people "doing what they
        > > can" and existentialism. I take Existentialism as a sort of philosophy for
        > > the individual. It doesn't have an impact on a more public plain. Yes one
        > > should authentic to oneself, but what happens when you get a real sadistic
        > > nut-case who is authentic to himself by hurting others. If you are
        > > following the action in Mali, you will know of Mohammed Moussa who had
        > > Timbuktu his hands for the past 10 months until the French drove him out.
        > > It was he who directed the Islamic police in applying a strict Sharia law.
        > > He ordered women to be completely covered and the men to grow beards. He
        > > was also responsible for having women raped, whipping, cutting off a hand or
        > > foot or both of thieves. You could get caught up with his "police" for
        > > whatever even that supposed. Moussa was being authentic.
        > >
        > > eduard
        > >
        > > -----Original Message-----
        > > From: Mary
        > > Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 2:32 PM
        > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        > > Subject: [existlist] Re: The boy in the hole
        > >
        > > Let me restate this. Any individual, whether employed in the private or the
        > > public sector, cannot be excused from doing what they can. The reason
        > > existentialism is not just 'what everybody does anyway' is because it's a
        > > call for authenticity and doing what is worth your trouble. That there are
        > > no guarantees does impact our decisions but only if we don't chose. If we
        > > don't choose, someone else chooses for us. Freedom isn't even possible if no
        > > one is authentically choosing. For example, if someone declares they're just
        > > doing their job or that money is their primary goal, you know where they
        > > stand. Reacting to inauthentic people is like shadow boxing; taking a
        > > position is the only way someone else is free to take theirs.
        > >
        > > Mary
        > >
        > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Oh eduard. Those "security people" are just doing what they can. Shit
        > > > happens. Not. This is why existentialism is more about 'what you can do'
        > > > and how the personal intersects with the public than hindsight about every
        > > > path is the same. What you think directly relates to how you act. If
        > > > liberty is important, then what the individual does, whether a private
        > > > citizen or a government, is important, is worth the trouble, is life and
        > > > death for many. What's equally threatening to liberty is doing nothing.
        > > >
        > > > Mary
        > > >
        > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > You mean "Asperger's".
        > > > >
        > > > > The idea of chips is disturbing. The security people won't stop until
        > > > > they
        > > > > have chips in everyone. Big threat to liberty.
        > > > >
        > > > > eduard
        > > > >
        > > > > -----Original Message-----
        > > > > From: William
        > > > > Sent: Monday, February 04, 2013 6:07 PM
        > > > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        > > > > Subject: [existlist] The boy in the hole
        > > > >
        > > > > We got the whole nut bag treatment with this story. Gun violence,
        > > > > veteran
        > > > > acting out, child abduction, murder, kidnapping and suicide. It
        > > > > appears
        > > > > the FBI rescued the child who had Augsburgers. This story is one of
        > > > > modern
        > > > > disfunctionality. and would seem to defy any conclusion or attempt at
        > > > > prevention.
        > > > > Remember Dirty Harry when the nut job invades the school bus? I wonder
        > > > > if
        > > > > Dikes did?
        > > > > It may be time to put up the drones and canvass the crazies all the
        > > > > time.
        > > > > Can the computers do that? can the democracy stand it. We may be able
        > > > > to
        > > > > detect a weapon and any perp with no gun rights could be intradicted
        > > > > for
        > > > > cause. The cops stop him and confiscate his weapon and take him to a
        > > > > treatment holding facility. It would probably require implanting a chip
        > > > > that identifies the suspect as a mental problem. Gun plus + chip =
        > > > > take
        > > > > down. I can see this shaping up and think it is big brother to the
        > > > > maximum
        > > > > extent. The crazies just keep pushing the envelope of evil and is
        > > > > actually
        > > > > domestic terrorism. The methodes that work against Islamic terrorism
        > > > > could work for this domestic scourge. I hate the thought of it but
        > > > > know
        > > > > it will soon be proposed. A nut job with a gun will be taken down
        > > > > automatically and we probably already have the technology with the
        > > > > drones.
        > > > > Welcome to the brave new world. Bill
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > ------------------------------------
        > > > >
        > > > > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining
        > > > > nothing!
        > > > >
        > > > > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ------------------------------------
        > >
        > > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining nothing!
        > >
        > > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
        > >
        >
      • Mary
        The authenticity of existentialism is one of self-awareness and weighing personal ideas and values against the grain to determine if they are genuinely held
        Message 3 of 25 , Feb 5, 2013
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          The authenticity of existentialism is one of self-awareness and weighing personal ideas and values against the grain to determine if they are genuinely held or simply absorbed from culture and traditions. Ideologues and religious zealots are not authentic, because they rarely question themselves this way. They refuse to interact with those who oppose them; they're intellectually incestuous, answering their doubts with deeper commitment to their ideology. This isn't what existentialism espouses.

          Mary

          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
          >
          > I don't think that one can draw a fine line between people "doing what they
          > can" and existentialism. I take Existentialism as a sort of philosophy for
          > the individual. It doesn't have an impact on a more public plain. Yes one
          > should authentic to oneself, but what happens when you get a real sadistic
          > nut-case who is authentic to himself by hurting others. If you are
          > following the action in Mali, you will know of Mohammed Moussa who had
          > Timbuktu his hands for the past 10 months until the French drove him out.
          > It was he who directed the Islamic police in applying a strict Sharia law.
          > He ordered women to be completely covered and the men to grow beards. He
          > was also responsible for having women raped, whipping, cutting off a hand or
          > foot or both of thieves. You could get caught up with his "police" for
          > whatever even that supposed. Moussa was being authentic.
          >
          > eduard
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Mary
          > Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 2:32 PM
          > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [existlist] Re: The boy in the hole
          >
          > Let me restate this. Any individual, whether employed in the private or the
          > public sector, cannot be excused from doing what they can. The reason
          > existentialism is not just 'what everybody does anyway' is because it's a
          > call for authenticity and doing what is worth your trouble. That there are
          > no guarantees does impact our decisions but only if we don't chose. If we
          > don't choose, someone else chooses for us. Freedom isn't even possible if no
          > one is authentically choosing. For example, if someone declares they're just
          > doing their job or that money is their primary goal, you know where they
          > stand. Reacting to inauthentic people is like shadow boxing; taking a
          > position is the only way someone else is free to take theirs.
          >
          > Mary
          >
          > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" wrote:
          > >
          > > Oh eduard. Those "security people" are just doing what they can. Shit
          > > happens. Not. This is why existentialism is more about 'what you can do'
          > > and how the personal intersects with the public than hindsight about every
          > > path is the same. What you think directly relates to how you act. If
          > > liberty is important, then what the individual does, whether a private
          > > citizen or a government, is important, is worth the trouble, is life and
          > > death for many. What's equally threatening to liberty is doing nothing.
          > >
          > > Mary
          > >
          > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
          > > >
          > > > You mean "Asperger's".
          > > >
          > > > The idea of chips is disturbing. The security people won't stop until
          > > > they
          > > > have chips in everyone. Big threat to liberty.
          > > >
          > > > eduard
          > > >
          > > > -----Original Message-----
          > > > From: William
          > > > Sent: Monday, February 04, 2013 6:07 PM
          > > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          > > > Subject: [existlist] The boy in the hole
          > > >
          > > > We got the whole nut bag treatment with this story. Gun violence,
          > > > veteran
          > > > acting out, child abduction, murder, kidnapping and suicide. It
          > > > appears
          > > > the FBI rescued the child who had Augsburgers. This story is one of
          > > > modern
          > > > disfunctionality. and would seem to defy any conclusion or attempt at
          > > > prevention.
          > > > Remember Dirty Harry when the nut job invades the school bus? I wonder
          > > > if
          > > > Dikes did?
          > > > It may be time to put up the drones and canvass the crazies all the
          > > > time.
          > > > Can the computers do that? can the democracy stand it. We may be able
          > > > to
          > > > detect a weapon and any perp with no gun rights could be intradicted
          > > > for
          > > > cause. The cops stop him and confiscate his weapon and take him to a
          > > > treatment holding facility. It would probably require implanting a chip
          > > > that identifies the suspect as a mental problem. Gun plus + chip =
          > > > take
          > > > down. I can see this shaping up and think it is big brother to the
          > > > maximum
          > > > extent. The crazies just keep pushing the envelope of evil and is
          > > > actually
          > > > domestic terrorism. The methodes that work against Islamic terrorism
          > > > could work for this domestic scourge. I hate the thought of it but
          > > > know
          > > > it will soon be proposed. A nut job with a gun will be taken down
          > > > automatically and we probably already have the technology with the
          > > > drones.
          > > > Welcome to the brave new world. Bill
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > ------------------------------------
          > > >
          > > > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining
          > > > nothing!
          > > >
          > > > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
          > > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining nothing!
          >
          > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
          >
        • eduardathome
          I don t think security would be bothered with people going to the mountains. It will be interested in what you do when you get there. The licence plate of your
          Message 4 of 25 , Feb 5, 2013
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            I don't think security would be bothered with people going to the mountains.
            It will be interested in what you do when you get there.

            The licence plate of your car will have an RFID [radio frequency
            identification chip], so they will know when you go to the mountains and
            when you might leave. The chips will be installed under to premise of "user
            pay" for the road system. Security only has to tap into the system. And of
            course they will monitor all your communications whilst you are there.

            In a way, a speaker is a microphone, but you don't have to be that
            complicated. Landlines are easily monitored and cellphones .... well ... we
            all know that they have no real privacy.

            eduard

            -----Original Message-----
            From: William
            Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 3:34 PM
            To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [existlist] Re: The boy in the hole



            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
            >
            > Yes ... what you do is what you are.
            >
            > But in this case doing something IS a threat to liberty.
            >
            > The problem is that people are weighing the event against the means to be
            > implemented to possibly avoid the event in future. Eventually it will be
            > all gone and we will wonder how it all happened.
            >
            > Those "security people" aren't just doing what they can. They are busily
            > thinking up new ways to track the population out there and identify
            > individuals who may be outside the "norm". And of course, the norm is
            > what
            > they define as the norm. What they do is "security" and this soon becomes
            > an objective in itself.
            >
            > I have no doubt that emails in the US are being "filtered" according to
            > key
            > words that Homeland Security feels are indicative of terrorist
            > inclinations.
            > Certainly it is being done in Canada, although I think it is only for
            > specifically targeted people at this time.
            >
            > I think there is an imbalance of event and response which is due to the
            > media coverage of such as "the boy in the hole". There are something
            > like
            > 315 million people in the US. So you have one 65 year old who kills a bus
            > driver and kidnaps a boy. All very tragic but how many bus drivers were
            > not
            > killed and how many boys not kidnapped. That isn't to minimize the event
            > but to put it into perspective. And already Bill is advocating sending up
            > more drones and putting chips in the "crazies". But actually Bill is
            > going
            > further than that. He has the equation of "gun + chip = takedown". The
            > only way to do that is put a chip in everyone and then a registry of arms.
            > So the computer can compare the person [any person] against the list and
            > then signal the takedown. It has to be that way, since there is no way of
            > knowing if Mr. Average is a crazy or not. Huge loss of liberty with Big
            > Brother watching over every individual.
            >
            > eduard
            > Eduard, I am not for chips but I know that in the security rhelm what can
            > be done will be done. Invisible bar codes can be developed and imprinted
            > without the knowledge of the individual. Just plan to be watched and
            > listned to at all times. The far right has a certain sensitivity to these
            > matters. They do not trust the government and fight its growth. In that
            > regard I do listen to what they say. The eye in the sky over Syracuse has
            > not as yet been shown to violate civil rights but how would anyone know
            > ? I have been told that any speaker is also a microphone. Is that
            > possible,as an engineer you might know. An open wire into any environment
            > can transmit picture and sound both ways. Any hope of privacy was lost
            > with Marconi forward. I think we are wired and watched especially if we
            > have a computer or phone in our presence. I think it is the nature of the
            > modern world and going to the mountains will not make a difference.Look
            > at the global hawk its ability to gather
            intelligence even from very high altitudes is of course classified. Go to
            the mountains and you can still be looked down on. I do not see any way
            back from this you just can`t uninvolve technology. As I said in Map you
            can`t run the clock backwards. Bill
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Mary
            > Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 1:06 PM
            > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [existlist] Re: The boy in the hole
            >
            > Oh eduard. Those "security people" are just doing what they can. Shit
            > happens. Not. This is why existentialism is more about 'what you can do'
            > and
            > how the personal intersects with the public than hindsight about every
            > path
            > is the same. What you think directly relates to how you act. If liberty is
            > important, then what the individual does, whether a private citizen or a
            > government, is important, is worth the trouble, is life and death for
            > many.
            > What's equally threatening to liberty is doing nothing.
            >
            > Mary
            >
            > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
            > >
            > > You mean "Asperger's".
            > >
            > > The idea of chips is disturbing. The security people won't stop until
            > > they
            > > have chips in everyone. Big threat to liberty.
            > >
            > > eduard
            > >
            > > -----Original Message-----
            > > From: William
            > > Sent: Monday, February 04, 2013 6:07 PM
            > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            > > Subject: [existlist] The boy in the hole
            > >
            > > We got the whole nut bag treatment with this story. Gun violence,
            > > veteran
            > > acting out, child abduction, murder, kidnapping and suicide. It
            > > appears
            > > the FBI rescued the child who had Augsburgers. This story is one of
            > > modern
            > > disfunctionality. and would seem to defy any conclusion or attempt at
            > > prevention.
            > > Remember Dirty Harry when the nut job invades the school bus? I wonder
            > > if
            > > Dikes did?
            > > It may be time to put up the drones and canvass the crazies all the
            > > time.
            > > Can the computers do that? can the democracy stand it. We may be able
            > > to
            > > detect a weapon and any perp with no gun rights could be intradicted
            > > for
            > > cause. The cops stop him and confiscate his weapon and take him to a
            > > treatment holding facility. It would probably require implanting a chip
            > > that identifies the suspect as a mental problem. Gun plus + chip =
            > > take
            > > down. I can see this shaping up and think it is big brother to the
            > > maximum
            > > extent. The crazies just keep pushing the envelope of evil and is
            > > actually
            > > domestic terrorism. The methodes that work against Islamic terrorism
            > > could work for this domestic scourge. I hate the thought of it but
            > > know
            > > it will soon be proposed. A nut job with a gun will be taken down
            > > automatically and we probably already have the technology with the
            > > drones.
            > > Welcome to the brave new world. Bill
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------------------------------
            > >
            > > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining
            > > nothing!
            > >
            > > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining nothing!
            >
            > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
            >




            ------------------------------------

            Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining nothing!

            Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
          • eduardathome
            I don t think I said that .... not doing anything is a path of equal value because we can t guarantee the outcome. I think I said that we get caught in a
            Message 5 of 25 , Feb 5, 2013
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              I don't think I said that .... not doing anything is a path of equal value
              because we can't guarantee the outcome. I think I said that we get caught
              in a progressive loss of liberty because we accept that a particular event
              is serious enough in that it has gone viral in the media. The objective of
              the media is, however, to make money. Gun killing in the US is a serious
              problem, but we have to be careful of our response.

              eduard

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Mary
              Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 3:40 PM
              To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [existlist] Re: The boy in the hole

              If we don't speak out; if we don't advocate for our opposing positions,
              others will choose for us; others will act against our concerns. Those who
              work in security are not concerned with existential authenticity. I continue
              to make the point that existentialism isn't a common approach to living. It
              isn't common thinking, common decision making, or any other 'normal' mode of
              existence. I think you're saying not doing anything is a path of equal value
              because we can't guarantee the outcome. Doing nothing to oppose these
              policies is just as dangerous; look where it's gotten us.

              Mary

              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
              >
              > Yes ... what you do is what you are.
              >
              > But in this case doing something IS a threat to liberty.
              >
              > The problem is that people are weighing the event against the means to be
              > implemented to possibly avoid the event in future. Eventually it will be
              > all gone and we will wonder how it all happened.
              >
              > Those "security people" aren't just doing what they can. They are busily
              > thinking up new ways to track the population out there and identify
              > individuals who may be outside the "norm". And of course, the norm is
              > what
              > they define as the norm. What they do is "security" and this soon becomes
              > an objective in itself.
              >
              > I have no doubt that emails in the US are being "filtered" according to
              > key
              > words that Homeland Security feels are indicative of terrorist
              > inclinations.
              > Certainly it is being done in Canada, although I think it is only for
              > specifically targeted people at this time.
              >
              > I think there is an imbalance of event and response which is due to the
              > media coverage of such as "the boy in the hole". There are something
              > like
              > 315 million people in the US. So you have one 65 year old who kills a bus
              > driver and kidnaps a boy. All very tragic but how many bus drivers were
              > not
              > killed and how many boys not kidnapped. That isn't to minimize the event
              > but to put it into perspective. And already Bill is advocating sending up
              > more drones and putting chips in the "crazies". But actually Bill is
              > going
              > further than that. He has the equation of "gun + chip = takedown". The
              > only way to do that is put a chip in everyone and then a registry of arms.
              > So the computer can compare the person [any person] against the list and
              > then signal the takedown. It has to be that way, since there is no way of
              > knowing if Mr. Average is a crazy or not. Huge loss of liberty with Big
              > Brother watching over every individual.
              >
              > eduard
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Mary
              > Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 1:06 PM
              > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [existlist] Re: The boy in the hole
              >
              > Oh eduard. Those "security people" are just doing what they can. Shit
              > happens. Not. This is why existentialism is more about 'what you can do'
              > and
              > how the personal intersects with the public than hindsight about every
              > path
              > is the same. What you think directly relates to how you act. If liberty is
              > important, then what the individual does, whether a private citizen or a
              > government, is important, is worth the trouble, is life and death for
              > many.
              > What's equally threatening to liberty is doing nothing.
              >
              > Mary
              >
              > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
              > >
              > > You mean "Asperger's".
              > >
              > > The idea of chips is disturbing. The security people won't stop until
              > > they
              > > have chips in everyone. Big threat to liberty.
              > >
              > > eduard
              > >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: William
              > > Sent: Monday, February 04, 2013 6:07 PM
              > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              > > Subject: [existlist] The boy in the hole
              > >
              > > We got the whole nut bag treatment with this story. Gun violence,
              > > veteran
              > > acting out, child abduction, murder, kidnapping and suicide. It
              > > appears
              > > the FBI rescued the child who had Augsburgers. This story is one of
              > > modern
              > > disfunctionality. and would seem to defy any conclusion or attempt at
              > > prevention.
              > > Remember Dirty Harry when the nut job invades the school bus? I wonder
              > > if
              > > Dikes did?
              > > It may be time to put up the drones and canvass the crazies all the
              > > time.
              > > Can the computers do that? can the democracy stand it. We may be able
              > > to
              > > detect a weapon and any perp with no gun rights could be intradicted
              > > for
              > > cause. The cops stop him and confiscate his weapon and take him to a
              > > treatment holding facility. It would probably require implanting a chip
              > > that identifies the suspect as a mental problem. Gun plus + chip =
              > > take
              > > down. I can see this shaping up and think it is big brother to the
              > > maximum
              > > extent. The crazies just keep pushing the envelope of evil and is
              > > actually
              > > domestic terrorism. The methodes that work against Islamic terrorism
              > > could work for this domestic scourge. I hate the thought of it but
              > > know
              > > it will soon be proposed. A nut job with a gun will be taken down
              > > automatically and we probably already have the technology with the
              > > drones.
              > > Welcome to the brave new world. Bill
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------
              > >
              > > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining
              > > nothing!
              > >
              > > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining nothing!
              >
              > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
              >




              ------------------------------------

              Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining nothing!

              Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
            • eduardathome
              Religious zealots are very authentic. They aren t borrowing from the public trough but are twisted all on their own. Granted Moussa got his training in
              Message 6 of 25 , Feb 5, 2013
              • 0 Attachment
                Religious zealots are very authentic. They aren't borrowing from the public
                trough but are twisted all on their own. Granted Moussa got his training in
                Saudi, but he was already twisted when he chose to go there for training in
                the first place. It was only a matter of choosing the best place to get
                what he already agreed with.

                eduard

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Mary
                Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 4:41 PM
                To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [existlist] Re: The boy in the hole

                The authenticity of existentialism is one of self-awareness and weighing
                personal ideas and values against the grain to determine if they are
                genuinely held or simply absorbed from culture and traditions. Ideologues
                and religious zealots are not authentic, because they rarely question
                themselves this way. They refuse to interact with those who oppose them;
                they're intellectually incestuous, answering their doubts with deeper
                commitment to their ideology. This isn't what existentialism espouses.

                Mary

                --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
                >
                > I don't think that one can draw a fine line between people "doing what
                > they
                > can" and existentialism. I take Existentialism as a sort of philosophy
                > for
                > the individual. It doesn't have an impact on a more public plain. Yes
                > one
                > should authentic to oneself, but what happens when you get a real sadistic
                > nut-case who is authentic to himself by hurting others. If you are
                > following the action in Mali, you will know of Mohammed Moussa who had
                > Timbuktu his hands for the past 10 months until the French drove him out.
                > It was he who directed the Islamic police in applying a strict Sharia law.
                > He ordered women to be completely covered and the men to grow beards. He
                > was also responsible for having women raped, whipping, cutting off a hand
                > or
                > foot or both of thieves. You could get caught up with his "police" for
                > whatever even that supposed. Moussa was being authentic.
                >
                > eduard
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Mary
                > Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 2:32 PM
                > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: [existlist] Re: The boy in the hole
                >
                > Let me restate this. Any individual, whether employed in the private or
                > the
                > public sector, cannot be excused from doing what they can. The reason
                > existentialism is not just 'what everybody does anyway' is because it's a
                > call for authenticity and doing what is worth your trouble. That there are
                > no guarantees does impact our decisions but only if we don't chose. If we
                > don't choose, someone else chooses for us. Freedom isn't even possible if
                > no
                > one is authentically choosing. For example, if someone declares they're
                > just
                > doing their job or that money is their primary goal, you know where they
                > stand. Reacting to inauthentic people is like shadow boxing; taking a
                > position is the only way someone else is free to take theirs.
                >
                > Mary
                >
                > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" wrote:
                > >
                > > Oh eduard. Those "security people" are just doing what they can. Shit
                > > happens. Not. This is why existentialism is more about 'what you can do'
                > > and how the personal intersects with the public than hindsight about
                > > every
                > > path is the same. What you think directly relates to how you act. If
                > > liberty is important, then what the individual does, whether a private
                > > citizen or a government, is important, is worth the trouble, is life and
                > > death for many. What's equally threatening to liberty is doing nothing.
                > >
                > > Mary
                > >
                > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
                > > >
                > > > You mean "Asperger's".
                > > >
                > > > The idea of chips is disturbing. The security people won't stop
                > > > until
                > > > they
                > > > have chips in everyone. Big threat to liberty.
                > > >
                > > > eduard
                > > >
                > > > -----Original Message-----
                > > > From: William
                > > > Sent: Monday, February 04, 2013 6:07 PM
                > > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                > > > Subject: [existlist] The boy in the hole
                > > >
                > > > We got the whole nut bag treatment with this story. Gun violence,
                > > > veteran
                > > > acting out, child abduction, murder, kidnapping and suicide. It
                > > > appears
                > > > the FBI rescued the child who had Augsburgers. This story is one of
                > > > modern
                > > > disfunctionality. and would seem to defy any conclusion or attempt
                > > > at
                > > > prevention.
                > > > Remember Dirty Harry when the nut job invades the school bus? I
                > > > wonder
                > > > if
                > > > Dikes did?
                > > > It may be time to put up the drones and canvass the crazies all the
                > > > time.
                > > > Can the computers do that? can the democracy stand it. We may be able
                > > > to
                > > > detect a weapon and any perp with no gun rights could be intradicted
                > > > for
                > > > cause. The cops stop him and confiscate his weapon and take him to a
                > > > treatment holding facility. It would probably require implanting a
                > > > chip
                > > > that identifies the suspect as a mental problem. Gun plus + chip =
                > > > take
                > > > down. I can see this shaping up and think it is big brother to the
                > > > maximum
                > > > extent. The crazies just keep pushing the envelope of evil and is
                > > > actually
                > > > domestic terrorism. The methodes that work against Islamic terrorism
                > > > could work for this domestic scourge. I hate the thought of it but
                > > > know
                > > > it will soon be proposed. A nut job with a gun will be taken down
                > > > automatically and we probably already have the technology with the
                > > > drones.
                > > > Welcome to the brave new world. Bill
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > ------------------------------------
                > > >
                > > > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining
                > > > nothing!
                > > >
                > > > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
                > > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining nothing!
                >
                > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
                >




                ------------------------------------

                Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining nothing!

                Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
              • Mary
                You re conflating, or once again trying to reduce to the simplistic, the common meaning of the word authentic with existential authenticity. Zealots are not
                Message 7 of 25 , Feb 5, 2013
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                  You're conflating, or once again trying to reduce to the simplistic, the common meaning of the word authentic with existential authenticity. Zealots are not existentially authentic; they're not capable of bad faith, because they adhere to an ideology. To state that evil people are authentic is meaningless in an existential context.

                  Mary

                  --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
                  >
                  > Religious zealots are very authentic. They aren't borrowing from the public
                  > trough but are twisted all on their own. Granted Moussa got his training in
                  > Saudi, but he was already twisted when he chose to go there for training in
                  > the first place. It was only a matter of choosing the best place to get
                  > what he already agreed with.
                  >
                  > eduard
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: Mary
                  > Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 4:41 PM
                  > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: [existlist] Re: The boy in the hole
                  >
                  > The authenticity of existentialism is one of self-awareness and weighing
                  > personal ideas and values against the grain to determine if they are
                  > genuinely held or simply absorbed from culture and traditions. Ideologues
                  > and religious zealots are not authentic, because they rarely question
                  > themselves this way. They refuse to interact with those who oppose them;
                  > they're intellectually incestuous, answering their doubts with deeper
                  > commitment to their ideology. This isn't what existentialism espouses.
                  >
                  > Mary
                  >
                  > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
                  > >
                  > > I don't think that one can draw a fine line between people "doing what
                  > > they
                  > > can" and existentialism. I take Existentialism as a sort of philosophy
                  > > for
                  > > the individual. It doesn't have an impact on a more public plain. Yes
                  > > one
                  > > should authentic to oneself, but what happens when you get a real sadistic
                  > > nut-case who is authentic to himself by hurting others. If you are
                  > > following the action in Mali, you will know of Mohammed Moussa who had
                  > > Timbuktu his hands for the past 10 months until the French drove him out.
                  > > It was he who directed the Islamic police in applying a strict Sharia law.
                  > > He ordered women to be completely covered and the men to grow beards. He
                  > > was also responsible for having women raped, whipping, cutting off a hand
                  > > or
                  > > foot or both of thieves. You could get caught up with his "police" for
                  > > whatever even that supposed. Moussa was being authentic.
                  > >
                  > > eduard
                  > >
                  > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > From: Mary
                  > > Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 2:32 PM
                  > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Subject: [existlist] Re: The boy in the hole
                  > >
                  > > Let me restate this. Any individual, whether employed in the private or
                  > > the
                  > > public sector, cannot be excused from doing what they can. The reason
                  > > existentialism is not just 'what everybody does anyway' is because it's a
                  > > call for authenticity and doing what is worth your trouble. That there are
                  > > no guarantees does impact our decisions but only if we don't chose. If we
                  > > don't choose, someone else chooses for us. Freedom isn't even possible if
                  > > no
                  > > one is authentically choosing. For example, if someone declares they're
                  > > just
                  > > doing their job or that money is their primary goal, you know where they
                  > > stand. Reacting to inauthentic people is like shadow boxing; taking a
                  > > position is the only way someone else is free to take theirs.
                  > >
                  > > Mary
                  > >
                  > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Oh eduard. Those "security people" are just doing what they can. Shit
                  > > > happens. Not. This is why existentialism is more about 'what you can do'
                  > > > and how the personal intersects with the public than hindsight about
                  > > > every
                  > > > path is the same. What you think directly relates to how you act. If
                  > > > liberty is important, then what the individual does, whether a private
                  > > > citizen or a government, is important, is worth the trouble, is life and
                  > > > death for many. What's equally threatening to liberty is doing nothing.
                  > > >
                  > > > Mary
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > You mean "Asperger's".
                  > > > >
                  > > > > The idea of chips is disturbing. The security people won't stop
                  > > > > until
                  > > > > they
                  > > > > have chips in everyone. Big threat to liberty.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > eduard
                  > > > >
                  > > > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > > > From: William
                  > > > > Sent: Monday, February 04, 2013 6:07 PM
                  > > > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > > Subject: [existlist] The boy in the hole
                  > > > >
                  > > > > We got the whole nut bag treatment with this story. Gun violence,
                  > > > > veteran
                  > > > > acting out, child abduction, murder, kidnapping and suicide. It
                  > > > > appears
                  > > > > the FBI rescued the child who had Augsburgers. This story is one of
                  > > > > modern
                  > > > > disfunctionality. and would seem to defy any conclusion or attempt
                  > > > > at
                  > > > > prevention.
                  > > > > Remember Dirty Harry when the nut job invades the school bus? I
                  > > > > wonder
                  > > > > if
                  > > > > Dikes did?
                  > > > > It may be time to put up the drones and canvass the crazies all the
                  > > > > time.
                  > > > > Can the computers do that? can the democracy stand it. We may be able
                  > > > > to
                  > > > > detect a weapon and any perp with no gun rights could be intradicted
                  > > > > for
                  > > > > cause. The cops stop him and confiscate his weapon and take him to a
                  > > > > treatment holding facility. It would probably require implanting a
                  > > > > chip
                  > > > > that identifies the suspect as a mental problem. Gun plus + chip =
                  > > > > take
                  > > > > down. I can see this shaping up and think it is big brother to the
                  > > > > maximum
                  > > > > extent. The crazies just keep pushing the envelope of evil and is
                  > > > > actually
                  > > > > domestic terrorism. The methodes that work against Islamic terrorism
                  > > > > could work for this domestic scourge. I hate the thought of it but
                  > > > > know
                  > > > > it will soon be proposed. A nut job with a gun will be taken down
                  > > > > automatically and we probably already have the technology with the
                  > > > > drones.
                  > > > > Welcome to the brave new world. Bill
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > ------------------------------------
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining
                  > > > > nothing!
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ------------------------------------
                  > >
                  > > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining nothing!
                  > >
                  > > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining nothing!
                  >
                  > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                • eduardathome
                  Interesting. Why is it bad faith ?? If a sadist harms others, how can it be bad faith since (1) he wants to harm you, and (2) he does harm you. It would be
                  Message 8 of 25 , Feb 6, 2013
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Interesting.

                    Why is it "bad faith"?? If a sadist harms others, how can it be bad faith
                    since (1) he wants to harm you, and (2) he does harm you. It would be
                    different if he doesn't want to harm you, but does so because he thinks it
                    is required of him and decides some self justification.

                    eduard

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Mary
                    Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 7:01 PM
                    To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [existlist] Re: The boy in the hole

                    You're conflating, or once again trying to reduce to the simplistic, the
                    common meaning of the word authentic with existential authenticity. Zealots
                    are not existentially authentic; they're not capable of bad faith, because
                    they adhere to an ideology. To state that evil people are authentic is
                    meaningless in an existential context.

                    Mary

                    --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
                    >
                    > Religious zealots are very authentic. They aren't borrowing from the
                    > public
                    > trough but are twisted all on their own. Granted Moussa got his training
                    > in
                    > Saudi, but he was already twisted when he chose to go there for training
                    > in
                    > the first place. It was only a matter of choosing the best place to get
                    > what he already agreed with.
                    >
                    > eduard
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: Mary
                    > Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 4:41 PM
                    > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: [existlist] Re: The boy in the hole
                    >
                    > The authenticity of existentialism is one of self-awareness and weighing
                    > personal ideas and values against the grain to determine if they are
                    > genuinely held or simply absorbed from culture and traditions. Ideologues
                    > and religious zealots are not authentic, because they rarely question
                    > themselves this way. They refuse to interact with those who oppose them;
                    > they're intellectually incestuous, answering their doubts with deeper
                    > commitment to their ideology. This isn't what existentialism espouses.
                    >
                    > Mary
                    >
                    > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
                    > >
                    > > I don't think that one can draw a fine line between people "doing what
                    > > they
                    > > can" and existentialism. I take Existentialism as a sort of philosophy
                    > > for
                    > > the individual. It doesn't have an impact on a more public plain. Yes
                    > > one
                    > > should authentic to oneself, but what happens when you get a real
                    > > sadistic
                    > > nut-case who is authentic to himself by hurting others. If you are
                    > > following the action in Mali, you will know of Mohammed Moussa who had
                    > > Timbuktu his hands for the past 10 months until the French drove him
                    > > out.
                    > > It was he who directed the Islamic police in applying a strict Sharia
                    > > law.
                    > > He ordered women to be completely covered and the men to grow beards.
                    > > He
                    > > was also responsible for having women raped, whipping, cutting off a
                    > > hand
                    > > or
                    > > foot or both of thieves. You could get caught up with his "police" for
                    > > whatever even that supposed. Moussa was being authentic.
                    > >
                    > > eduard
                    > >
                    > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > From: Mary
                    > > Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 2:32 PM
                    > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                    > > Subject: [existlist] Re: The boy in the hole
                    > >
                    > > Let me restate this. Any individual, whether employed in the private or
                    > > the
                    > > public sector, cannot be excused from doing what they can. The reason
                    > > existentialism is not just 'what everybody does anyway' is because it's
                    > > a
                    > > call for authenticity and doing what is worth your trouble. That there
                    > > are
                    > > no guarantees does impact our decisions but only if we don't chose. If
                    > > we
                    > > don't choose, someone else chooses for us. Freedom isn't even possible
                    > > if
                    > > no
                    > > one is authentically choosing. For example, if someone declares they're
                    > > just
                    > > doing their job or that money is their primary goal, you know where they
                    > > stand. Reacting to inauthentic people is like shadow boxing; taking a
                    > > position is the only way someone else is free to take theirs.
                    > >
                    > > Mary
                    > >
                    > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Oh eduard. Those "security people" are just doing what they can. Shit
                    > > > happens. Not. This is why existentialism is more about 'what you can
                    > > > do'
                    > > > and how the personal intersects with the public than hindsight about
                    > > > every
                    > > > path is the same. What you think directly relates to how you act. If
                    > > > liberty is important, then what the individual does, whether a private
                    > > > citizen or a government, is important, is worth the trouble, is life
                    > > > and
                    > > > death for many. What's equally threatening to liberty is doing
                    > > > nothing.
                    > > >
                    > > > Mary
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > You mean "Asperger's".
                    > > > >
                    > > > > The idea of chips is disturbing. The security people won't stop
                    > > > > until
                    > > > > they
                    > > > > have chips in everyone. Big threat to liberty.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > eduard
                    > > > >
                    > > > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > > > From: William
                    > > > > Sent: Monday, February 04, 2013 6:07 PM
                    > > > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > > Subject: [existlist] The boy in the hole
                    > > > >
                    > > > > We got the whole nut bag treatment with this story. Gun violence,
                    > > > > veteran
                    > > > > acting out, child abduction, murder, kidnapping and suicide. It
                    > > > > appears
                    > > > > the FBI rescued the child who had Augsburgers. This story is one
                    > > > > of
                    > > > > modern
                    > > > > disfunctionality. and would seem to defy any conclusion or attempt
                    > > > > at
                    > > > > prevention.
                    > > > > Remember Dirty Harry when the nut job invades the school bus? I
                    > > > > wonder
                    > > > > if
                    > > > > Dikes did?
                    > > > > It may be time to put up the drones and canvass the crazies all the
                    > > > > time.
                    > > > > Can the computers do that? can the democracy stand it. We may be
                    > > > > able
                    > > > > to
                    > > > > detect a weapon and any perp with no gun rights could be
                    > > > > intradicted
                    > > > > for
                    > > > > cause. The cops stop him and confiscate his weapon and take him to a
                    > > > > treatment holding facility. It would probably require implanting a
                    > > > > chip
                    > > > > that identifies the suspect as a mental problem. Gun plus + chip =
                    > > > > take
                    > > > > down. I can see this shaping up and think it is big brother to the
                    > > > > maximum
                    > > > > extent. The crazies just keep pushing the envelope of evil and is
                    > > > > actually
                    > > > > domestic terrorism. The methodes that work against Islamic
                    > > > > terrorism
                    > > > > could work for this domestic scourge. I hate the thought of it
                    > > > > but
                    > > > > know
                    > > > > it will soon be proposed. A nut job with a gun will be taken down
                    > > > > automatically and we probably already have the technology with the
                    > > > > drones.
                    > > > > Welcome to the brave new world. Bill
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > ------------------------------------
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining
                    > > > > nothing!
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ------------------------------------
                    > >
                    > > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining
                    > > nothing!
                    > >
                    > > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining nothing!
                    >
                    > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
                    >




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                  • Mary
                    I already explained how zealots aren t capable of bad faith. Now you ve turned to sadists as examples of authentic evil. A sadist is probably a good example of
                    Message 9 of 25 , Feb 6, 2013
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                      I already explained how zealots aren't capable of bad faith. Now you've turned to sadists as examples of authentic evil. A sadist is probably a good example of someone choosing authentically, because he may justify according to his freedom to choose what he wants. You don't get it. Bad faith is acting against your own sense of freedom to make a different choice, a choice not based on ideology. The zealot isn't free to deliberate with himself; he follows an ideology rather than questioning himself. Bad faith is knowing something about yourself and then acting against that knowledge. It's choosing to ignore and wanting to ignore something essential about yourself but then acting contrary to it. I vaguely recall that Beauvoir wrote about Sade using this argument. I don't understand how a sadist's existential authenticity is the same as a zealot's except perhaps their outcomes, but just because an outcome looks the same, doesn't mean their motives were.

                      Mary

                      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
                      >
                      > Interesting.
                      >
                      > Why is it "bad faith"?? If a sadist harms others, how can it be bad faith
                      > since (1) he wants to harm you, and (2) he does harm you. It would be
                      > different if he doesn't want to harm you, but does so because he thinks it
                      > is required of him and decides some self justification.
                      >
                      > eduard
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: Mary
                      > Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 7:01 PM
                      > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: [existlist] Re: The boy in the hole
                      >
                      > You're conflating, or once again trying to reduce to the simplistic, the
                      > common meaning of the word authentic with existential authenticity. Zealots
                      > are not existentially authentic; they're not capable of bad faith, because
                      > they adhere to an ideology. To state that evil people are authentic is
                      > meaningless in an existential context.
                      >
                      > Mary
                      >
                      > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Religious zealots are very authentic. They aren't borrowing from the
                      > > public
                      > > trough but are twisted all on their own. Granted Moussa got his training
                      > > in
                      > > Saudi, but he was already twisted when he chose to go there for training
                      > > in
                      > > the first place. It was only a matter of choosing the best place to get
                      > > what he already agreed with.
                      > >
                      > > eduard
                      > >
                      > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > From: Mary
                      > > Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 4:41 PM
                      > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                      > > Subject: [existlist] Re: The boy in the hole
                      > >
                      > > The authenticity of existentialism is one of self-awareness and weighing
                      > > personal ideas and values against the grain to determine if they are
                      > > genuinely held or simply absorbed from culture and traditions. Ideologues
                      > > and religious zealots are not authentic, because they rarely question
                      > > themselves this way. They refuse to interact with those who oppose them;
                      > > they're intellectually incestuous, answering their doubts with deeper
                      > > commitment to their ideology. This isn't what existentialism espouses.
                      > >
                      > > Mary
                      > >
                      > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > I don't think that one can draw a fine line between people "doing what
                      > > > they
                      > > > can" and existentialism. I take Existentialism as a sort of philosophy
                      > > > for
                      > > > the individual. It doesn't have an impact on a more public plain. Yes
                      > > > one
                      > > > should authentic to oneself, but what happens when you get a real
                      > > > sadistic
                      > > > nut-case who is authentic to himself by hurting others. If you are
                      > > > following the action in Mali, you will know of Mohammed Moussa who had
                      > > > Timbuktu his hands for the past 10 months until the French drove him
                      > > > out.
                      > > > It was he who directed the Islamic police in applying a strict Sharia
                      > > > law.
                      > > > He ordered women to be completely covered and the men to grow beards.
                      > > > He
                      > > > was also responsible for having women raped, whipping, cutting off a
                      > > > hand
                      > > > or
                      > > > foot or both of thieves. You could get caught up with his "police" for
                      > > > whatever even that supposed. Moussa was being authentic.
                      > > >
                      > > > eduard
                      > > >
                      > > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > > From: Mary
                      > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 2:32 PM
                      > > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > Subject: [existlist] Re: The boy in the hole
                      > > >
                      > > > Let me restate this. Any individual, whether employed in the private or
                      > > > the
                      > > > public sector, cannot be excused from doing what they can. The reason
                      > > > existentialism is not just 'what everybody does anyway' is because it's
                      > > > a
                      > > > call for authenticity and doing what is worth your trouble. That there
                      > > > are
                      > > > no guarantees does impact our decisions but only if we don't chose. If
                      > > > we
                      > > > don't choose, someone else chooses for us. Freedom isn't even possible
                      > > > if
                      > > > no
                      > > > one is authentically choosing. For example, if someone declares they're
                      > > > just
                      > > > doing their job or that money is their primary goal, you know where they
                      > > > stand. Reacting to inauthentic people is like shadow boxing; taking a
                      > > > position is the only way someone else is free to take theirs.
                      > > >
                      > > > Mary
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Oh eduard. Those "security people" are just doing what they can. Shit
                      > > > > happens. Not. This is why existentialism is more about 'what you can
                      > > > > do'
                      > > > > and how the personal intersects with the public than hindsight about
                      > > > > every
                      > > > > path is the same. What you think directly relates to how you act. If
                      > > > > liberty is important, then what the individual does, whether a private
                      > > > > citizen or a government, is important, is worth the trouble, is life
                      > > > > and
                      > > > > death for many. What's equally threatening to liberty is doing
                      > > > > nothing.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Mary
                      > > > >
                      > > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > You mean "Asperger's".
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > The idea of chips is disturbing. The security people won't stop
                      > > > > > until
                      > > > > > they
                      > > > > > have chips in everyone. Big threat to liberty.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > eduard
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > > > > From: William
                      > > > > > Sent: Monday, February 04, 2013 6:07 PM
                      > > > > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > > > Subject: [existlist] The boy in the hole
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > We got the whole nut bag treatment with this story. Gun violence,
                      > > > > > veteran
                      > > > > > acting out, child abduction, murder, kidnapping and suicide. It
                      > > > > > appears
                      > > > > > the FBI rescued the child who had Augsburgers. This story is one
                      > > > > > of
                      > > > > > modern
                      > > > > > disfunctionality. and would seem to defy any conclusion or attempt
                      > > > > > at
                      > > > > > prevention.
                      > > > > > Remember Dirty Harry when the nut job invades the school bus? I
                      > > > > > wonder
                      > > > > > if
                      > > > > > Dikes did?
                      > > > > > It may be time to put up the drones and canvass the crazies all the
                      > > > > > time.
                      > > > > > Can the computers do that? can the democracy stand it. We may be
                      > > > > > able
                      > > > > > to
                      > > > > > detect a weapon and any perp with no gun rights could be
                      > > > > > intradicted
                      > > > > > for
                      > > > > > cause. The cops stop him and confiscate his weapon and take him to a
                      > > > > > treatment holding facility. It would probably require implanting a
                      > > > > > chip
                      > > > > > that identifies the suspect as a mental problem. Gun plus + chip =
                      > > > > > take
                      > > > > > down. I can see this shaping up and think it is big brother to the
                      > > > > > maximum
                      > > > > > extent. The crazies just keep pushing the envelope of evil and is
                      > > > > > actually
                      > > > > > domestic terrorism. The methodes that work against Islamic
                      > > > > > terrorism
                      > > > > > could work for this domestic scourge. I hate the thought of it
                      > > > > > but
                      > > > > > know
                      > > > > > it will soon be proposed. A nut job with a gun will be taken down
                      > > > > > automatically and we probably already have the technology with the
                      > > > > > drones.
                      > > > > > Welcome to the brave new world. Bill
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > ------------------------------------
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining
                      > > > > > nothing!
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
                      > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > ------------------------------------
                      > > >
                      > > > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining
                      > > > nothing!
                      > > >
                      > > > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ------------------------------------
                      > >
                      > > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining nothing!
                      > >
                      > > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining nothing!
                      >
                      > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                    • Mary
                      Correction: I meant to say, It s choosing to ignore something essential about yourself and acting contrary to that something.
                      Message 10 of 25 , Feb 6, 2013
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                        Correction: I meant to say, It's choosing to ignore something essential about yourself and acting contrary to that something.

                        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" wrote:
                        >
                        > I already explained how zealots aren't capable of bad faith. Now you've turned to sadists as examples of authentic evil. A sadist is probably a good example of someone choosing authentically, because he may justify according to his freedom to choose what he wants. You don't get it. Bad faith is acting against your own sense of freedom to make a different choice, a choice not based on ideology. The zealot isn't free to deliberate with himself; he follows an ideology rather than questioning himself. Bad faith is knowing something about yourself and then acting against that knowledge. It's choosing to ignore and wanting to ignore something essential about yourself but then acting contrary to it. I vaguely recall that Beauvoir wrote about Sade using this argument. I don't understand how a sadist's existential authenticity is the same as a zealot's except perhaps their outcomes, but just because an outcome looks the same, doesn't mean their motives were.
                        >
                        > Mary
                      • eduardathome
                        I do get it. I agree that Bad faith is knowing something about yourself and then acting against that knowledge. I m just pointing out that Moussa in Mali would
                        Message 11 of 25 , Feb 6, 2013
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                          I do get it.

                          I agree that Bad faith is knowing something about yourself and then acting
                          against that knowledge.

                          I'm just pointing out that Moussa in Mali would not be acting in bad faith,
                          since he IS evil. Therefore, he acts authentically.

                          Your comment ... "To state that evil people are authentic is meaningless in
                          an existential context" ... seems to imply that only good people can be
                          authentic in an existential context. Why?? If authenticity is acting
                          according to your knowledge of yourself, then surely this formula would
                          apply as well to evil people.

                          eduard

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Mary
                          Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2013 2:39 PM
                          To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [existlist] Re: The boy in the hole

                          I already explained how zealots aren't capable of bad faith. Now you've
                          turned to sadists as examples of authentic evil. A sadist is probably a good
                          example of someone choosing authentically, because he may justify according
                          to his freedom to choose what he wants. You don't get it. Bad faith is
                          acting against your own sense of freedom to make a different choice, a
                          choice not based on ideology. The zealot isn't free to deliberate with
                          himself; he follows an ideology rather than questioning himself. Bad faith
                          is knowing something about yourself and then acting against that knowledge.
                          It's choosing to ignore and wanting to ignore something essential about
                          yourself but then acting contrary to it. I vaguely recall that Beauvoir
                          wrote about Sade using this argument. I don't understand how a sadist's
                          existential authenticity is the same as a zealot's except perhaps their
                          outcomes, but just because an outcome looks the same, doesn't mean their
                          motives were.

                          Mary

                          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
                          >
                          > Interesting.
                          >
                          > Why is it "bad faith"?? If a sadist harms others, how can it be bad faith
                          > since (1) he wants to harm you, and (2) he does harm you. It would be
                          > different if he doesn't want to harm you, but does so because he thinks it
                          > is required of him and decides some self justification.
                          >
                          > eduard
                        • eduardathome
                          Even then the evil person is acting in an existential context. They know they are evil. One cannot say that they are essentially good and are ignoring the
                          Message 12 of 25 , Feb 6, 2013
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                            Even then the evil person is acting in an existential context. They know
                            they are evil. One cannot say that they are essentially good and are
                            ignoring the fact. That is why it is impossible to deal with these people
                            in a rational manner. You can't connect with their good side because they
                            don't have a good side, ignored or otherwise.

                            eduard

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Mary
                            Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2013 3:00 PM
                            To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [existlist] Re: The boy in the hole

                            Correction: I meant to say, It's choosing to ignore something essential
                            about yourself and acting contrary to that something.

                            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" wrote:
                            >
                            > I already explained how zealots aren't capable of bad faith. Now you've
                            > turned to sadists as examples of authentic evil. A sadist is probably a
                            > good example of someone choosing authentically, because he may justify
                            > according to his freedom to choose what he wants. You don't get it. Bad
                            > faith is acting against your own sense of freedom to make a different
                            > choice, a choice not based on ideology. The zealot isn't free to
                            > deliberate with himself; he follows an ideology rather than questioning
                            > himself. Bad faith is knowing something about yourself and then acting
                            > against that knowledge. It's choosing to ignore and wanting to ignore
                            > something essential about yourself but then acting contrary to it. I
                            > vaguely recall that Beauvoir wrote about Sade using this argument. I don't
                            > understand how a sadist's existential authenticity is the same as a
                            > zealot's except perhaps their outcomes, but just because an outcome looks
                            > the same, doesn't mean their motives were.
                            >
                            > Mary



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                          • Mary
                            No you don t. A zealot terrorist doesn t believe he s evil. He think s he s doing the will of his god. He s acting authentically according to his own perceived
                            Message 13 of 25 , Feb 6, 2013
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                              No you don't. A zealot terrorist doesn't believe he's evil. He think's he's doing the will of his god. He's acting authentically according to his own perceived goodness, but it's not an existential authenticity because he isn't acting freely. You're confusing the fact that we consider him evil with the fact that he considers himself good. Two different things.

                              Mary

                              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
                              >
                              > I do get it.
                              >
                              > I agree that Bad faith is knowing something about yourself and then acting
                              > against that knowledge.
                              >
                              > I'm just pointing out that Moussa in Mali would not be acting in bad faith,
                              > since he IS evil. Therefore, he acts authentically.
                              >
                              > Your comment ... "To state that evil people are authentic is meaningless in
                              > an existential context" ... seems to imply that only good people can be
                              > authentic in an existential context. Why?? If authenticity is acting
                              > according to your knowledge of yourself, then surely this formula would
                              > apply as well to evil people.
                              >
                              > eduard
                              >
                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: Mary
                              > Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2013 2:39 PM
                              > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: [existlist] Re: The boy in the hole
                              >
                              > I already explained how zealots aren't capable of bad faith. Now you've
                              > turned to sadists as examples of authentic evil. A sadist is probably a good
                              > example of someone choosing authentically, because he may justify according
                              > to his freedom to choose what he wants. You don't get it. Bad faith is
                              > acting against your own sense of freedom to make a different choice, a
                              > choice not based on ideology. The zealot isn't free to deliberate with
                              > himself; he follows an ideology rather than questioning himself. Bad faith
                              > is knowing something about yourself and then acting against that knowledge.
                              > It's choosing to ignore and wanting to ignore something essential about
                              > yourself but then acting contrary to it. I vaguely recall that Beauvoir
                              > wrote about Sade using this argument. I don't understand how a sadist's
                              > existential authenticity is the same as a zealot's except perhaps their
                              > outcomes, but just because an outcome looks the same, doesn't mean their
                              > motives were.
                              >
                              > Mary
                              >
                              > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Interesting.
                              > >
                              > > Why is it "bad faith"?? If a sadist harms others, how can it be bad faith
                              > > since (1) he wants to harm you, and (2) he does harm you. It would be
                              > > different if he doesn't want to harm you, but does so because he thinks it
                              > > is required of him and decides some self justification.
                              > >
                              > > eduard
                              >
                            • Mary
                              Only the person thinking existentially is thinking in an existentialist context. Existentialism is a discourse formed by philosophers who put forth certain
                              Message 14 of 25 , Feb 6, 2013
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                                Only the person thinking existentially is thinking in an existentialist context. Existentialism is a discourse formed by philosophers who put forth certain concepts. Bad faith and authenticity is once such concept, and it only matters to an existentialist thinker.

                                Mary

                                --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
                                >
                                > Even then the evil person is acting in an existential context. They know
                                > they are evil. One cannot say that they are essentially good and are
                                > ignoring the fact. That is why it is impossible to deal with these people
                                > in a rational manner. You can't connect with their good side because they
                                > don't have a good side, ignored or otherwise.
                                >
                                > eduard
                                >
                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > From: Mary
                                > Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2013 3:00 PM
                                > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: [existlist] Re: The boy in the hole
                                >
                                > Correction: I meant to say, It's choosing to ignore something essential
                                > about yourself and acting contrary to that something.
                                >
                                > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" wrote:
                                > >
                                > > I already explained how zealots aren't capable of bad faith. Now you've
                                > > turned to sadists as examples of authentic evil. A sadist is probably a
                                > > good example of someone choosing authentically, because he may justify
                                > > according to his freedom to choose what he wants. You don't get it. Bad
                                > > faith is acting against your own sense of freedom to make a different
                                > > choice, a choice not based on ideology. The zealot isn't free to
                                > > deliberate with himself; he follows an ideology rather than questioning
                                > > himself. Bad faith is knowing something about yourself and then acting
                                > > against that knowledge. It's choosing to ignore and wanting to ignore
                                > > something essential about yourself but then acting contrary to it. I
                                > > vaguely recall that Beauvoir wrote about Sade using this argument. I don't
                                > > understand how a sadist's existential authenticity is the same as a
                                > > zealot's except perhaps their outcomes, but just because an outcome looks
                                > > the same, doesn't mean their motives were.
                                > >
                                > > Mary
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ------------------------------------
                                >
                                > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining nothing!
                                >
                                > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                              • eduardathome
                                Perhaps I don t. But, how can you say that he isn t acting freely . Surely he must be. He indeed acts according to his own perceived goodness. So if he
                                Message 15 of 25 , Feb 6, 2013
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                                  Perhaps I don't.

                                  But, how can you say that "he isn't acting freely". Surely he must be. He
                                  indeed acts according to his own perceived goodness. So if he acts in
                                  according to what he thinks, he is then doing so in good faith. But deeper
                                  than that, he is accepting to go by the evil of his god because he already
                                  is evil. For example, his god [through sharia law] says you should cut off
                                  a hand and foot of a thief. He accepts this particular direction, because,
                                  he is already inclined to harm others. The law simply suits what he is
                                  already inclined. The Islamic nut doesn't have an internal conflict, in
                                  that he knows he shouldn't harm people, but his religion is telling him to
                                  do so.

                                  You are accommodating the terrorist by making your own judgement of what he
                                  thinks. As long as he accepts a direction from outside, he is doing good.
                                  On that basis there would be no bad faith, since everyone who is doing evil
                                  must accept it and thus are doing what they consider as good. The 65 year
                                  old Dykes was acting in good faith by kidnapping that boy. He wanted to
                                  kidnap the boy and he did so. He is being authentic in an existential
                                  context ... which was my point from the beginning in regard to Moussa in
                                  Mali, although I prefer to say he is inherently evil. You want to say that
                                  inherently he is good, but just happens to accept an outside direction to do
                                  evil.

                                  eduard

                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: Mary
                                  Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2013 5:23 PM
                                  To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: [existlist] Re: The boy in the hole

                                  No you don't. A zealot terrorist doesn't believe he's evil. He think's he's
                                  doing the will of his god. He's acting authentically according to his own
                                  perceived goodness, but it's not an existential authenticity because he
                                  isn't acting freely. You're confusing the fact that we consider him evil
                                  with the fact that he considers himself good. Two different things.

                                  Mary

                                  --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I do get it.
                                  >
                                  > I agree that Bad faith is knowing something about yourself and then acting
                                  > against that knowledge.
                                  >
                                  > I'm just pointing out that Moussa in Mali would not be acting in bad
                                  > faith,
                                  > since he IS evil. Therefore, he acts authentically.
                                  >
                                  > Your comment ... "To state that evil people are authentic is meaningless
                                  > in
                                  > an existential context" ... seems to imply that only good people can be
                                  > authentic in an existential context. Why?? If authenticity is acting
                                  > according to your knowledge of yourself, then surely this formula would
                                  > apply as well to evil people.
                                  >
                                  > eduard
                                  >
                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                  > From: Mary
                                  > Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2013 2:39 PM
                                  > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: [existlist] Re: The boy in the hole
                                  >
                                  > I already explained how zealots aren't capable of bad faith. Now you've
                                  > turned to sadists as examples of authentic evil. A sadist is probably a
                                  > good
                                  > example of someone choosing authentically, because he may justify
                                  > according
                                  > to his freedom to choose what he wants. You don't get it. Bad faith is
                                  > acting against your own sense of freedom to make a different choice, a
                                  > choice not based on ideology. The zealot isn't free to deliberate with
                                  > himself; he follows an ideology rather than questioning himself. Bad faith
                                  > is knowing something about yourself and then acting against that
                                  > knowledge.
                                  > It's choosing to ignore and wanting to ignore something essential about
                                  > yourself but then acting contrary to it. I vaguely recall that Beauvoir
                                  > wrote about Sade using this argument. I don't understand how a sadist's
                                  > existential authenticity is the same as a zealot's except perhaps their
                                  > outcomes, but just because an outcome looks the same, doesn't mean their
                                  > motives were.
                                  >
                                  > Mary
                                  >
                                  > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Interesting.
                                  > >
                                  > > Why is it "bad faith"?? If a sadist harms others, how can it be bad
                                  > > faith
                                  > > since (1) he wants to harm you, and (2) he does harm you. It would be
                                  > > different if he doesn't want to harm you, but does so because he thinks
                                  > > it
                                  > > is required of him and decides some self justification.
                                  > >
                                  > > eduard
                                  >




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                                • eduardathome
                                  [You don t get it. Bad faith is acting against your own sense of freedom to make a different choice, a choice not based on ideology. The zealot isn t free to
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Feb 6, 2013
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                                    [You don't get it. Bad faith is acting against your own sense of freedom to
                                    make a different
                                    choice, a choice not based on ideology. The zealot isn't free to
                                    deliberate with himself; he follows an ideology rather than questioning
                                    himself. Bad faith is knowing something about yourself and then acting
                                    against that knowledge. It's choosing to ignore and wanting to ignore
                                    something essential about yourself but then acting contrary to it. ]

                                    I don't see how a zealot who does violence against others is any different
                                    from a sadist who does the same. The zealot may be following direction from
                                    his religion, but he has made that choice already. Effectively the zealot
                                    who does violence is a sadist who has found a particular religious direction
                                    to be suitable for his own character. Both are acting authentically
                                    according to an existential context. Both are acting according to their
                                    perception of what is good [for them].

                                    I don't think that one can say that a zealot isn't free to deliberate with
                                    himself. You are suggesting that if he had a chance to deliberate, then he
                                    would not be a zealot. At least not a zealot who does violence. But people
                                    who are such zealots are already of a type who likes violence. The religion
                                    only provides an avenue for doing so. Moussa is basically evil and his
                                    religion enables him to do violence which he enjoys. He is acting
                                    authentically.

                                    eduard



                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: Mary
                                    Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2013 5:31 PM
                                    To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: [existlist] Re: The boy in the hole

                                    Only the person thinking existentially is thinking in an existentialist
                                    context. Existentialism is a discourse formed by philosophers who put forth
                                    certain concepts. Bad faith and authenticity is once such concept, and it
                                    only matters to an existentialist thinker.

                                    Mary

                                    --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Even then the evil person is acting in an existential context. They know
                                    > they are evil. One cannot say that they are essentially good and are
                                    > ignoring the fact. That is why it is impossible to deal with these people
                                    > in a rational manner. You can't connect with their good side because they
                                    > don't have a good side, ignored or otherwise.
                                    >
                                    > eduard
                                    >
                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                    > From: Mary
                                    > Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2013 3:00 PM
                                    > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Subject: [existlist] Re: The boy in the hole
                                    >
                                    > Correction: I meant to say, It's choosing to ignore something essential
                                    > about yourself and acting contrary to that something.
                                    >
                                    > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > I already explained how zealots aren't capable of bad faith. Now you've
                                    > > turned to sadists as examples of authentic evil. A sadist is probably a
                                    > > good example of someone choosing authentically, because he may justify
                                    > > according to his freedom to choose what he wants. You don't get it. Bad
                                    > > faith is acting against your own sense of freedom to make a different
                                    > > choice, a choice not based on ideology. The zealot isn't free to
                                    > > deliberate with himself; he follows an ideology rather than questioning
                                    > > himself. Bad faith is knowing something about yourself and then acting
                                    > > against that knowledge. It's choosing to ignore and wanting to ignore
                                    > > something essential about yourself but then acting contrary to it. I
                                    > > vaguely recall that Beauvoir wrote about Sade using this argument. I
                                    > > don't
                                    > > understand how a sadist's existential authenticity is the same as a
                                    > > zealot's except perhaps their outcomes, but just because an outcome
                                    > > looks
                                    > > the same, doesn't mean their motives were.
                                    > >
                                    > > Mary
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
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                                  • Murad Baig
                                    Zealots are passionate but seldom wise. Read this extract from a book I am writing. Murad ... Although these five were the main architects of religion,
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Feb 6, 2013
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                                      Zealots are passionate but seldom wise.

                                      Read this extract from a book I am writing.

                                      Murad

                                      ... Although these five were the main architects of
                                      religion, religions were also shaped and distorted by a huge number of
                                      passionate revisionists who ardently believed that God had personally given
                                      them a divine mission to reform or redirect their interpretations of their
                                      faiths. It is quite astonishing how a few, sometimes unbalanced, men were to
                                      completely alter their religions and sometimes even create completely new
                                      religions or major schisms within established religions. 
                                       
                                      One well documented fairly recent example is the
                                      strange case of Shabbatai Zavi a scholarly young Jew who may have been
                                      something of a manic depressive.  He
                                      lived in Smyrna (Turkey) in the late seventeenth century. He used to suffer
                                      fits of depression and would disappear for days until charged with fits of what
                                      he called illumination where, what he called, a `higher power’ would direct him
                                      to violate many of the very strict taboos of Judaism.  He was convinced that these `Holy Sins’ were
                                      to lead him to a new set of holy commandments in a reformed new Judaism. He was
                                      expelled from Smyrna in 1650, wandered for fifteen years and went to Gaza to
                                      meet a great healer called Nathan who had proclaimed …”Thus saith the lord
                                      Behold our savior commeth! Shabbatai Zavi is his name.” Nathan believed that
                                      `the messiah’ had been trapped in a godless world from the beginning and would
                                      now be freed. The news rapidly spread to many Jewish communities who began to
                                      violate many Jewish practices, food and sexual taboos, roll on nettles, immerse
                                      themselves in freezing water and follow other strange practices awaiting a
                                      `Great Awakening’.
                                       
                                      In 1666, confident of the lord’s protection, he
                                      went to see the Turkish sultan and was promptly arrested and given the choice
                                      of death or conversion to Islam. To the shock of his ardent followers he
                                      immediately converted but said he had to do this apostatic act in order to
                                      `descend further into the realm of impurity’ that he described as `a holy sin’.
                                      He however avidly studied the Muslim Sharia believing that he was also destined
                                      to be a bridge between Judaism and Islam and bring the Jews back to their holy
                                      land. Such trifling with deeply entrenched sacred laws caused him to be
                                      initially exiled but, bizarre as his beliefs and actions were, Shibbatai
                                      acquired many followers until he suddenly died in 1676. Two radical Shabbatean
                                      sects however followed and led to a mass conversion of Jews.       
                                       
                                      His extraordinary example was not very different to
                                      numerous other `divinely inspired’ men who were to cause every religion to
                                      split and proliferate into dozens of sects and cults. The power of divinely
                                      inspired passion and the gullibility of their followers were truly astonishing.
                                      In some cases these revisionists were to turn well established religions
                                      completely on its head. Paul was the most notable example and was to completely
                                      hijack the very well established religion of Judaism, add a few fragments from
                                      the words of a Jew called Issa (Jesus) and create a completely new religion
                                      that he was to call Christianity. In the early nineteenth century, an
                                      illiterate Arab Bedouin called Abd al Wahhab was to similarly completely hijack
                                      Islam and made it intolerant and militant.
                                       
                                      Religions were not however solid edifices like some
                                      great building. They were living traditions that grew and evolved like the
                                      constantly spreading branches of great trees. The founders, apostles, priests
                                      and patrons may have been their roots but religions were constantly evolving
                                      and were to throw up numerous branches as they rose above the ground. Religions
                                      could ignite passions among numerous leaders who were to make many new sects
                                      and sub sects multiply with amazing speed.
                                       
                                      The huge number of `heresies’ that Christianity
                                      spawned very soon after the crucifixion best illustrates this huge explosion of
                                      religious deviations. Some of these were:
                                       
                                      Sabellianism:  Taught by
                                      Sebellius (215 CE) in Rome, believed that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are
                                      three faces of a single person, God. 
                                       
                                      Docetism:  This sect founded
                                      by bishop Serapion of Antioch (197 – 203 CE) believed that Christ was not a real human being and did not
                                      have a real human body. 
                                       
                                      Monophysitism:  They believed that
                                      Jesus had two separate natures in one body.  Monophysitism is still alive
                                      in several Egyptian and Middle Eastern sects.
                                       
                                      Adoptionism: They believed that
                                      Jesus was a human being who was "adopted" by God at his conception
                                      and then developed a divine nature. 
                                       
                                      Nestorianism:  Nestorius, the
                                      Patriarch of Antioch (386 – 451CE) believed that Jesus had two natures of Man
                                      and God that remained separate throughout his life and denied the idea of
                                      virgin birth. 
                                       
                                      Apollinarianism:  They believe Jesus
                                      Christ was not a real man, but not totally divine either. 
                                       
                                      Arianism:  Arius (250 -  336 CE), a priest in Alexandria believed that
                                      Jesus Christ was a special creation by God for man's salvation. It became a
                                      very powerful schism.
                                       
                                      Socianism:  This was a version
                                      of Arianism that says that Jesus was an extraordinary man and not a divinity. 
                                       
                                      Donatism:  Named for its
                                      leader Donatus the Great (355 CE). They were a group of extremist sects who emphasized
                                      asceticism.
                                       
                                      Pelagianism:  Associated with
                                      the Irish monk Pelagius who believed that original sin was not transmitted from
                                      Adam and Eve to their children.
                                       
                                      Gnosticism:  They believed in the notion of a remote, supreme
                                      divinity, source of great depth and profundity and believed in emanations of
                                      further divine beings that were aspects of the God.
                                       
                                      Manicheanism:  This seems to have
                                      become a separate religion that blends Christianity with Gnosticism, Mithraism,
                                      neo-Platonism, and even many elements of Buddhism.  It gained many
                                      followers and survived well into the middle Ages, where it influenced the large
                                      communities of the Bogomils in the Balkans and the Cathars in southern France.
                                       
                                      Bogomils: They were adoptionist
                                      but did not consider Jesus to be a part of a trinity. They did not also they
                                      consider Mary the mother of God. They also believed that God had two sons,
                                      Michael and Satan and that  Satan had created the material world and
                                      attempted to create Adam, but was unable to create a soul. 
                                       
                                      Cathars:  They followed the basic
                                      ideas of this Bogomil heresy and tried to live very simple, exemplary lives, even
                                      refraining from physical pleasures and meat. They believed that the God of the
                                      Old Testament was actually Satan who was responsible for the creation of the
                                      material world.  These were
                                      however only the some of the hundreds of religious deviations that appeared in
                                      the early years of Christianity. They were to continue to multiply through the
                                      centuries and even into modern times.
                                       
                                      Today though Roman Catholics are the largest
                                      Christian community there are over five hundred different churches practicing
                                      Catholic heresies all over the world. These include over twenty eastern Catholics,
                                      forty Orthodox Christians and over two hundred schools of Protestant, Lutheran
                                      and Anglican belief. There are also reformed churches, Methodists,
                                      Antibaptists, Pentecost’s, Quakers, Adventists, Jehovah’s witnesses, and many
                                      others.
                                       
                                      All these sects had equally good claims to being
                                      the true path to the message of Christ. These sects and cults however had great
                                      difficulty in establishing themselves as they faced staunch opposition from
                                      equally ardent devotees of other sects. It was therefore the sect that
                                      succeeded in getting the strongest political support that were able to vanquish
                                      their rivals in a war with the swords of soldiers rather than with the flame of
                                      spiritual superiority.
                                       
                                      These are the deviations in one just religion.
                                      There are almost as many deviant versions of Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism and all
                                      other faiths.


                                      ________________________________
                                      From: Mary <josephson45r@...>
                                      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Thursday, February 7, 2013 1:09 AM
                                      Subject: [existlist] Re: The boy in the hole

                                      I already explained how zealots aren't capable of bad faith. Now you've turned to sadists as examples of authentic evil. A sadist is probably a good example of someone choosing authentically, because he may justify according to his freedom to choose what he wants. You don't get it. Bad faith is acting against your own sense of freedom to make a different choice, a choice not based on ideology. The zealot isn't free to deliberate with himself; he follows an ideology rather than questioning himself. Bad faith is knowing something about yourself and then acting against that knowledge. It's choosing to ignore and wanting to ignore something essential about yourself but then acting contrary to it. I vaguely recall that Beauvoir wrote about Sade using this argument. I don't understand how a sadist's existential authenticity is the same as a zealot's except perhaps their outcomes, but just because an outcome looks the same, doesn't mean their motives were.

                                      Mary

                                      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome  wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Interesting.
                                      >
                                      > Why is it "bad faith"??  If a sadist harms others, how can it be bad faith
                                      > since (1) he wants to harm you, and (2) he does harm you.  It would be
                                      > different if he doesn't want to harm you, but does so because he thinks it
                                      > is required of him and decides some self justification.
                                      >
                                      > eduard
                                      >
                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                      > From: Mary
                                      > Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 7:01 PM
                                      > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Subject: [existlist] Re: The boy in the hole
                                      >
                                      > You're conflating, or once again trying to reduce to the simplistic, the
                                      > common meaning of the word authentic with existential authenticity. Zealots
                                      > are not existentially authentic; they're not capable of bad faith, because
                                      > they adhere to an ideology. To state that evil people are authentic is
                                      > meaningless in an existential context.
                                      >
                                      > Mary
                                      >
                                      > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome  wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Religious zealots are very authentic.  They aren't borrowing from the
                                      > > public
                                      > > trough but are twisted all on their own.  Granted Moussa got his training
                                      > > in
                                      > > Saudi, but he was already twisted when he chose to go there for training
                                      > > in
                                      > > the first place.  It was only a matter of choosing the best place to get
                                      > > what he already agreed with.
                                      > >
                                      > > eduard
                                      > >
                                      > > -----Original Message-----
                                      > > From: Mary
                                      > > Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 4:41 PM
                                      > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > Subject: [existlist] Re: The boy in the hole
                                      > >
                                      > > The authenticity of existentialism is one of self-awareness and weighing
                                      > > personal ideas  and values against the grain to determine if they are
                                      > > genuinely held or simply absorbed from culture and traditions. Ideologues
                                      > > and religious zealots are not authentic, because they rarely question
                                      > > themselves this way. They refuse to interact with those who oppose them;
                                      > > they're intellectually incestuous, answering their doubts with deeper
                                      > > commitment to their ideology. This isn't what existentialism espouses.
                                      > >
                                      > > Mary
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome  wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > I don't think that one can draw a fine line between people "doing what
                                      > > > they
                                      > > > can" and existentialism.  I take Existentialism as a sort of philosophy
                                      > > > for
                                      > > > the individual.  It doesn't have an impact on a more public plain.  Yes
                                      > > > one
                                      > > > should authentic to oneself, but what happens when you get a real
                                      > > > sadistic
                                      > > > nut-case who is authentic to himself by hurting others.  If you are
                                      > > > following the action in Mali, you will know of Mohammed Moussa who had
                                      > > > Timbuktu his hands for the past 10 months until the French drove him
                                      > > > out.
                                      > > > It was he who directed the Islamic police in applying a strict Sharia
                                      > > > law.
                                      > > > He ordered women to be completely covered and the men to grow beards.
                                      > > > He
                                      > > > was also responsible for having women raped, whipping, cutting off a
                                      > > > hand
                                      > > > or
                                      > > > foot or both of thieves.  You could get caught up with his "police" for
                                      > > > whatever even that supposed.  Moussa was being authentic.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > eduard
                                      > > >
                                      > > > -----Original Message-----
                                      > > > From: Mary
                                      > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 2:32 PM
                                      > > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > > Subject: [existlist] Re: The boy in the hole
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Let me restate this. Any individual, whether employed in the private or
                                      > > > the
                                      > > > public sector, cannot be excused from doing what they can. The reason
                                      > > > existentialism is not just 'what everybody does anyway' is because it's
                                      > > > a
                                      > > > call for authenticity and doing what is worth your trouble. That there
                                      > > > are
                                      > > > no guarantees does impact our decisions but only if we don't chose. If
                                      > > > we
                                      > > > don't choose, someone else chooses for us. Freedom isn't even possible
                                      > > > if
                                      > > > no
                                      > > > one is authentically choosing. For example, if someone declares they're
                                      > > > just
                                      > > > doing their job or that money is their primary goal, you know where they
                                      > > > stand. Reacting to inauthentic people is like shadow boxing; taking a
                                      > > > position is the only way someone else is free to take theirs.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Mary
                                      > > >
                                      > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary"  wrote:
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Oh eduard. Those "security people" are just doing what they can. Shit
                                      > > > > happens. Not. This is why existentialism is more about 'what you can
                                      > > > > do'
                                      > > > > and how the personal intersects with the public than hindsight about
                                      > > > > every
                                      > > > > path is the same. What you think directly relates to how you act. If
                                      > > > > liberty is important, then what the individual does, whether a private
                                      > > > > citizen or a government, is important, is worth the trouble, is life
                                      > > > > and
                                      > > > > death for many. What's equally threatening to liberty is doing
                                      > > > > nothing.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Mary
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome  wrote:
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > You mean "Asperger's".
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > The idea of chips  is disturbing.  The security people won't stop
                                      > > > > > until
                                      > > > > > they
                                      > > > > > have chips in everyone.  Big threat to liberty.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > eduard
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                      > > > > > From: William
                                      > > > > > Sent: Monday, February 04, 2013 6:07 PM
                                      > > > > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > > > > Subject: [existlist] The boy in the hole
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > We got the whole nut bag treatment with this  story. Gun violence,
                                      > > > > > veteran
                                      > > > > > acting out, child  abduction,  murder, kidnapping and suicide. It
                                      > > > > > appears
                                      > > > > > the FBI rescued the child who  had Augsburgers. This  story is one
                                      > > > > > of
                                      > > > > > modern
                                      > > > > > disfunctionality.  and would seem to defy any  conclusion or attempt
                                      > > > > > at
                                      > > > > > prevention.
                                      > > > > > Remember Dirty Harry when the nut job  invades the school bus? I
                                      > > > > > wonder
                                      > > > > > if
                                      > > > > > Dikes did?
                                      > > > > > It may be time to put up the drones and canvass the crazies all the
                                      > > > > > time.
                                      > > > > > Can the  computers do that? can the democracy stand it. We may be
                                      > > > > > able
                                      > > > > > to
                                      > > > > > detect a weapon and any perp with  no gun rights could be
                                      > > > > > intradicted
                                      > > > > > for
                                      > > > > > cause. The cops stop him and confiscate his weapon and take him to a
                                      > > > > > treatment holding facility. It would probably  require implanting a
                                      > > > > > chip
                                      > > > > > that identifies the suspect  as  a mental problem. Gun plus + chip =
                                      > > > > > take
                                      > > > > > down. I can see this shaping up and think it is big brother to the
                                      > > > > > maximum
                                      > > > > > extent. The crazies just keep pushing the envelope of evil and is
                                      > > > > > actually
                                      > > > > > domestic terrorism. The  methodes that work against  Islamic
                                      > > > > > terrorism
                                      > > > > > could  work for  this domestic scourge. I hate the thought of it
                                      > > > > > but
                                      > > > > > know
                                      > > > > > it will soon be  proposed. A nut job with a gun will be taken down
                                      > > > > > automatically and we probably already have the technology with the
                                      > > > > > drones.
                                      > > > > > Welcome to the brave new world. Bill
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
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