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Re: Do the map

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  • William
    ... A flint gray day at ten thousand feet comes to mind. So bleak and harsh that the people take on the hardness of the weather. I have met the workers in the
    Message 1 of 6 , Feb 4 9:42 AM
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      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" wrote:
      >
      > Bill, if by nonchalance you mean unconcern and eduard, if by fatalism you mean destiny, then I have to disagree. I feel we're discussing two different movies. If by nonchalance and fatalism you mean acceptance, I agree but neither of these describe Existentialism which is an argument against nihilism and fatalism, an argument against total negation and the meant-to-be. Existentialism argues for engagement in making a life which has meaning for you, only after which the average of the sum may be calculated.
      >
      > Besides, those lines of dialogue between Lapp and Johnson, although at the end of the film, weren't the end sum of Johnson's life; they were a perspective at that particular moment regarding his experiences over one fall and winter. Wiser for the journey, one can imagine he had more adventures ahead. When you use the terms fatalism and nihilism equally with existentialism, you can't really mean destiny, a total negation of meaning or value, or feeling unconcern.
      >
      > Johnson left society and its wars to live alone in the mountains. Ill prepared for his decision, he encountered hostile weather and angry Crow. The irony of his story, that nature and solitude also have their cost, is important. He couldn't avoid people and violence even in the wilderness.They were merely of a different order. He shunned one set of traditions and culture only to encounter a different one. I don't think fatalism was a theme but more his original intention, his series of choices, his growing respect for nature, limits, and the hard won respect he gained from Chris Lapp and Paints His Shirt Red who demanded respect for Crow tradition. The worst and pivotal choice in the story involved Johnson's bad faith decision to lead soldiers through Crow burial ground.
      >
      > If Johnson denied any trouble, it was because the distance he traveled was worth it, not because it was meaningless or was fated. He warred, he loved, he nurtured, he lost, and won. He meant 'so what.That's life.' He wasn't fated to endure those hardships. He chose, acted, reacted, adapted, and moved on. What appeared superficially as nonchalance wasn't a lack of concern or even a disregard for the lives lost due to his decisions. He'd come far during that short period of time, but it was worth the trouble. It meant his participation and acceptance of life's vicissitudes, not withdrawal, negation, or belief that things are meant to be. They're 'meant to be' only after you've done what you're capable of doing. Johnson learned his limitations, not that he didn't care or that all was meant to be regardless of his actions.
      >
      > I've forgotten the pains of childbirth, traumas of my marriage, and my disabling accident yet they were all well worth the trouble and whatever positive things they've brought to my life. They weren't meant to be; they happened largely because of my decisions to be in those particular places at those particular times. Many were bad faith choices, inauthentic choices based in fear and against my instincts and sensibilities, choices formed from cultural norms and not in freedom. Though I can now say after some perspective they were no bother and I've learned invaluable lessons, I live with scars from all three, I can't have a lack of concern or fatalism, because these long term situations have affected other lives. Johnson forsook societal bonds only to find himself entangled with different one, but his freedom was short lived.
      >
      > Jeremiah Johnson a fatalist and nonchalant? I don't think so. Engaged and a man of action, stoic perhaps and skeptical about romanticizing nature or trespassing on Indian Country. Mutual respect between competitors was gained, but none of these would have occurred had Johnson never undertaken the experience.He considered that time as no trouble, not because he didn't care or was merely expressing bravado. It was no trouble because of developing mutual respect and responsible freedom. It's all a new life can prove to be and more.
      >
      > Mary
      >Mary, I have watched this movie many times and each time I see it as a didderent experience. I cannot disagree with any of what you have just written, I have thought all those things about it. Redford is such an expressive actor, he is probably too much for the part. He`s too small, too delicate to survive in the rockies over winters. He belongs mugging with Barbara Strisand.
      A flint gray day at ten thousand feet comes to mind. So bleak and harsh that the people take on the hardness of the weather. I have met the workers in the molibdemnem mines. They will fight you for something to do. I have been in central City where my great grandfather rode shotgun guard on the silver wagons. The harshness even on good days is punishing. The indians did not go up there often it was too dangerous.So I do not stand on what I may have said about the movie, if I see it again it will be different. I see it as a mood movie and they caught the feeling of that huge area.
      I remember talking with a German who had come to ski. He was completely befuddled by the environment. He was suffering from altitude sickness and was trying to get back to Munich. He could not breath and he could not get rid of his headache. He was a lifelong skier but had never felt like this. I warned him that if he did not get down he could suffer angioneurotic edema and die. I got him on the shuttle to denver,hope he made it. The people who live there are not normal by flatlander standards. I think it to be genetic as I can survive there like my great grandfather.
      Today is gray and cold and I can take on the attitude even though I can breath. There you either have your supplies in or you perish. I have my supplies in and hunker down to stay warm . I an not too involved with anything ,it is a bit like hybernating. Even though I am involved in a good deal of business I am not sharp to it. I am back in the high cold and it just goes right through me.
      So talk of this movie throws snow on my mood and brings a foggy steam to my brain. It is not bad it is just another place I can go.
      The tree rat just came up and begged for food and I have a full bag of peanuts. We will both survive this winter even enjoy it. How mean and just. Bill
    • Mary
      Bill, If I haven t told you enough during our tenure here that I enjoy hearing your experiences, consider it a fact that I do. I don t recall many of eduard s,
      Message 2 of 6 , Feb 4 10:15 AM
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        Bill,

        If I haven't told you enough during our tenure here that I enjoy hearing your experiences, consider it a fact that I do. I don't recall many of eduard's, but I've no doubt they have contributed to his philosophy as well. Richardson's experiences are affirmative for me in a different way, but I've no inclination to become his Facebook friend. When it's active, existlist is enough internet community for me to handle.

        Mary

        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" wrote:
        > >
        > > Bill, if by nonchalance you mean unconcern and eduard, if by fatalism you mean destiny, then I have to disagree. I feel we're discussing two different movies. If by nonchalance and fatalism you mean acceptance, I agree but neither of these describe Existentialism which is an argument against nihilism and fatalism, an argument against total negation and the meant-to-be. Existentialism argues for engagement in making a life which has meaning for you, only after which the average of the sum may be calculated.
        > >
        > > Besides, those lines of dialogue between Lapp and Johnson, although at the end of the film, weren't the end sum of Johnson's life; they were a perspective at that particular moment regarding his experiences over one fall and winter. Wiser for the journey, one can imagine he had more adventures ahead. When you use the terms fatalism and nihilism equally with existentialism, you can't really mean destiny, a total negation of meaning or value, or feeling unconcern.
        > >
        > > Johnson left society and its wars to live alone in the mountains. Ill prepared for his decision, he encountered hostile weather and angry Crow. The irony of his story, that nature and solitude also have their cost, is important. He couldn't avoid people and violence even in the wilderness.They were merely of a different order. He shunned one set of traditions and culture only to encounter a different one. I don't think fatalism was a theme but more his original intention, his series of choices, his growing respect for nature, limits, and the hard won respect he gained from Chris Lapp and Paints His Shirt Red who demanded respect for Crow tradition. The worst and pivotal choice in the story involved Johnson's bad faith decision to lead soldiers through Crow burial ground.
        > >
        > > If Johnson denied any trouble, it was because the distance he traveled was worth it, not because it was meaningless or was fated. He warred, he loved, he nurtured, he lost, and won. He meant 'so what.That's life.' He wasn't fated to endure those hardships. He chose, acted, reacted, adapted, and moved on. What appeared superficially as nonchalance wasn't a lack of concern or even a disregard for the lives lost due to his decisions. He'd come far during that short period of time, but it was worth the trouble. It meant his participation and acceptance of life's vicissitudes, not withdrawal, negation, or belief that things are meant to be. They're 'meant to be' only after you've done what you're capable of doing. Johnson learned his limitations, not that he didn't care or that all was meant to be regardless of his actions.
        > >
        > > I've forgotten the pains of childbirth, traumas of my marriage, and my disabling accident yet they were all well worth the trouble and whatever positive things they've brought to my life. They weren't meant to be; they happened largely because of my decisions to be in those particular places at those particular times. Many were bad faith choices, inauthentic choices based in fear and against my instincts and sensibilities, choices formed from cultural norms and not in freedom. Though I can now say after some perspective they were no bother and I've learned invaluable lessons, I live with scars from all three, I can't have a lack of concern or fatalism, because these long term situations have affected other lives. Johnson forsook societal bonds only to find himself entangled with different one, but his freedom was short lived.
        > >
        > > Jeremiah Johnson a fatalist and nonchalant? I don't think so. Engaged and a man of action, stoic perhaps and skeptical about romanticizing nature or trespassing on Indian Country. Mutual respect between competitors was gained, but none of these would have occurred had Johnson never undertaken the experience.He considered that time as no trouble, not because he didn't care or was merely expressing bravado. It was no trouble because of developing mutual respect and responsible freedom. It's all a new life can prove to be and more.
        > >
        > > Mary
        > >Mary, I have watched this movie many times and each time I see it as a didderent experience. I cannot disagree with any of what you have just written, I have thought all those things about it. Redford is such an expressive actor, he is probably too much for the part. He`s too small, too delicate to survive in the rockies over winters. He belongs mugging with Barbara Strisand.
        > A flint gray day at ten thousand feet comes to mind. So bleak and harsh that the people take on the hardness of the weather. I have met the workers in the molibdemnem mines. They will fight you for something to do. I have been in central City where my great grandfather rode shotgun guard on the silver wagons. The harshness even on good days is punishing. The indians did not go up there often it was too dangerous.So I do not stand on what I may have said about the movie, if I see it again it will be different. I see it as a mood movie and they caught the feeling of that huge area.
        > I remember talking with a German who had come to ski. He was completely befuddled by the environment. He was suffering from altitude sickness and was trying to get back to Munich. He could not breath and he could not get rid of his headache. He was a lifelong skier but had never felt like this. I warned him that if he did not get down he could suffer angioneurotic edema and die. I got him on the shuttle to denver,hope he made it. The people who live there are not normal by flatlander standards. I think it to be genetic as I can survive there like my great grandfather.
        > Today is gray and cold and I can take on the attitude even though I can breath. There you either have your supplies in or you perish. I have my supplies in and hunker down to stay warm . I an not too involved with anything ,it is a bit like hybernating. Even though I am involved in a good deal of business I am not sharp to it. I am back in the high cold and it just goes right through me.
        > So talk of this movie throws snow on my mood and brings a foggy steam to my brain. It is not bad it is just another place I can go.
        > The tree rat just came up and begged for food and I have a full bag of peanuts. We will both survive this winter even enjoy it. How mean and just. Bill
        >
      • William
        ... We have won the fight over the F16`s they are going back to airplane heaven.We are going to get the drones and the old school airmen are pissed off. The
        Message 3 of 6 , Feb 4 11:33 AM
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          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" wrote:
          >
          > Bill,
          >
          > If I haven't told you enough during our tenure here that I enjoy hearing your experiences, consider it a fact that I do. I don't recall many of eduard's, but I've no doubt they have contributed to his philosophy as well. Richardson's experiences are affirmative for me in a different way, but I've no inclination to become his Facebook friend. When it's active, existlist is enough internet community for me to handle.
          >
          > Mary
          >Mary, yes I like old existlist and it seems to be quite clean of the bad things in the newer sorts of communication. Now I see that Merlin writes from a cave why do I think that may be true. You and Edward are stalwarts of existentialism and it is great to see stability in this full "o' bull world. Dick is a mad cap and adds the strange and different to the stew. I know I write all over the place but that is how I see life, a broad swash with little stories poking out of it.
          We have won the fight over the F16`s they are going back to airplane heaven.We are going to get the drones and the old school airmen are pissed off. The govenor is pissed off, and the real news is the personal will be replaced nearly man for man.
          It seems Syracuse has undergone a similar switch and there was a big fight over the change. The opponents claim that the drones will cause attacks on the city. The F16`s attacked the shit out of the islamic radicals and Syracuse was not attacked for the 16`s or the drones. I am reminded of Neal Young, we are getting a kinder, gentler machine gun hand.Isn`t progress great! I knew when I put in satellite radio that I had bugged myself. I have seen footage that can see through walls and roofs. For years I hung out in naturist places in the Carribean. If they are interseted I can`t stop them from watching. I really don`t think anyone gives a damn about what we say here.
          I am glad to beat back the old school conservatism and the 16`s had become part of that vast conspiracy. When it gets a bit warmer I will go out on the deck and say goodby to the roaring,snorting monsters. It they work as well as is said I doubt We will ever see a drone. They are to be like guardian angels, powerful but never seen or heard. So score one for Obama and a less obnoxious beleggerance by the brass hats. I still have my brass hat and I really look funny in it. I suppose I always did but we talk a lot about perspective here on this old site. Bill
          > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Bill, if by nonchalance you mean unconcern and eduard, if by fatalism you mean destiny, then I have to disagree. I feel we're discussing two different movies. If by nonchalance and fatalism you mean acceptance, I agree but neither of these describe Existentialism which is an argument against nihilism and fatalism, an argument against total negation and the meant-to-be. Existentialism argues for engagement in making a life which has meaning for you, only after which the average of the sum may be calculated.
          > > >
          > > > Besides, those lines of dialogue between Lapp and Johnson, although at the end of the film, weren't the end sum of Johnson's life; they were a perspective at that particular moment regarding his experiences over one fall and winter. Wiser for the journey, one can imagine he had more adventures ahead. When you use the terms fatalism and nihilism equally with existentialism, you can't really mean destiny, a total negation of meaning or value, or feeling unconcern.
          > > >
          > > > Johnson left society and its wars to live alone in the mountains. Ill prepared for his decision, he encountered hostile weather and angry Crow. The irony of his story, that nature and solitude also have their cost, is important. He couldn't avoid people and violence even in the wilderness.They were merely of a different order. He shunned one set of traditions and culture only to encounter a different one. I don't think fatalism was a theme but more his original intention, his series of choices, his growing respect for nature, limits, and the hard won respect he gained from Chris Lapp and Paints His Shirt Red who demanded respect for Crow tradition. The worst and pivotal choice in the story involved Johnson's bad faith decision to lead soldiers through Crow burial ground.
          > > >
          > > > If Johnson denied any trouble, it was because the distance he traveled was worth it, not because it was meaningless or was fated. He warred, he loved, he nurtured, he lost, and won. He meant 'so what.That's life.' He wasn't fated to endure those hardships. He chose, acted, reacted, adapted, and moved on. What appeared superficially as nonchalance wasn't a lack of concern or even a disregard for the lives lost due to his decisions. He'd come far during that short period of time, but it was worth the trouble. It meant his participation and acceptance of life's vicissitudes, not withdrawal, negation, or belief that things are meant to be. They're 'meant to be' only after you've done what you're capable of doing. Johnson learned his limitations, not that he didn't care or that all was meant to be regardless of his actions.
          > > >
          > > > I've forgotten the pains of childbirth, traumas of my marriage, and my disabling accident yet they were all well worth the trouble and whatever positive things they've brought to my life. They weren't meant to be; they happened largely because of my decisions to be in those particular places at those particular times. Many were bad faith choices, inauthentic choices based in fear and against my instincts and sensibilities, choices formed from cultural norms and not in freedom. Though I can now say after some perspective they were no bother and I've learned invaluable lessons, I live with scars from all three, I can't have a lack of concern or fatalism, because these long term situations have affected other lives. Johnson forsook societal bonds only to find himself entangled with different one, but his freedom was short lived.
          > > >
          > > > Jeremiah Johnson a fatalist and nonchalant? I don't think so. Engaged and a man of action, stoic perhaps and skeptical about romanticizing nature or trespassing on Indian Country. Mutual respect between competitors was gained, but none of these would have occurred had Johnson never undertaken the experience.He considered that time as no trouble, not because he didn't care or was merely expressing bravado. It was no trouble because of developing mutual respect and responsible freedom. It's all a new life can prove to be and more.
          > > >
          > > > Mary
          > > >Mary, I have watched this movie many times and each time I see it as a didderent experience. I cannot disagree with any of what you have just written, I have thought all those things about it. Redford is such an expressive actor, he is probably too much for the part. He`s too small, too delicate to survive in the rockies over winters. He belongs mugging with Barbara Strisand.
          > > A flint gray day at ten thousand feet comes to mind. So bleak and harsh that the people take on the hardness of the weather. I have met the workers in the molibdemnem mines. They will fight you for something to do. I have been in central City where my great grandfather rode shotgun guard on the silver wagons. The harshness even on good days is punishing. The indians did not go up there often it was too dangerous.So I do not stand on what I may have said about the movie, if I see it again it will be different. I see it as a mood movie and they caught the feeling of that huge area.
          > > I remember talking with a German who had come to ski. He was completely befuddled by the environment. He was suffering from altitude sickness and was trying to get back to Munich. He could not breath and he could not get rid of his headache. He was a lifelong skier but had never felt like this. I warned him that if he did not get down he could suffer angioneurotic edema and die. I got him on the shuttle to denver,hope he made it. The people who live there are not normal by flatlander standards. I think it to be genetic as I can survive there like my great grandfather.
          > > Today is gray and cold and I can take on the attitude even though I can breath. There you either have your supplies in or you perish. I have my supplies in and hunker down to stay warm . I an not too involved with anything ,it is a bit like hybernating. Even though I am involved in a good deal of business I am not sharp to it. I am back in the high cold and it just goes right through me.
          > > So talk of this movie throws snow on my mood and brings a foggy steam to my brain. It is not bad it is just another place I can go.
          > > The tree rat just came up and begged for food and I have a full bag of peanuts. We will both survive this winter even enjoy it. How mean and just. Bill
          > >
          >
        • eduardathome
          I mean by fatalism that in all life, shit happens. As soon as you take the road less travelled, you are off on a different direction, from which you can t
          Message 4 of 6 , Feb 4 1:51 PM
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            I mean by "fatalism" that in all life, shit happens. As soon as you take
            the road less travelled, you are off on a different direction, from which
            you can't return. But then one road is as good as another. And overall ...
            You live; you die; and you do what you can. There is no point is saying
            that it was a lot of "trouble". Johnson was right in his comment. He chose
            the path he took. He could have take another path, but nothing is guarantee
            there either.

            eduard

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Mary
            Sent: Monday, February 04, 2013 11:43 AM
            To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [existlist] Do the map

            Bill, if by nonchalance you mean unconcern and eduard, if by fatalism you
            mean destiny, then I have to disagree. I feel we're discussing two different
            movies. If by nonchalance and fatalism you mean acceptance, I agree but
            neither of these describe Existentialism which is an argument against
            nihilism and fatalism, an argument against total negation and the
            meant-to-be. Existentialism argues for engagement in making a life which has
            meaning for you, only after which the average of the sum may be calculated.

            Besides, those lines of dialogue between Lapp and Johnson, although at the
            end of the film, weren't the end sum of Johnson's life; they were a
            perspective at that particular moment regarding his experiences over one
            fall and winter. Wiser for the journey, one can imagine he had more
            adventures ahead. When you use the terms fatalism and nihilism equally with
            existentialism, you can't really mean destiny, a total negation of meaning
            or value, or feeling unconcern.

            Johnson left society and its wars to live alone in the mountains. Ill
            prepared for his decision, he encountered hostile weather and angry Crow.
            The irony of his story, that nature and solitude also have their cost, is
            important. He couldn't avoid people and violence even in the wilderness.They
            were merely of a different order. He shunned one set of traditions and
            culture only to encounter a different one. I don't think fatalism was a
            theme but more his original intention, his series of choices, his growing
            respect for nature, limits, and the hard won respect he gained from Chris
            Lapp and Paints His Shirt Red who demanded respect for Crow tradition. The
            worst and pivotal choice in the story involved Johnson's bad faith decision
            to lead soldiers through Crow burial ground.

            If Johnson denied any trouble, it was because the distance he traveled was
            worth it, not because it was meaningless or was fated. He warred, he loved,
            he nurtured, he lost, and won. He meant 'so what.That's life.' He wasn't
            fated to endure those hardships. He chose, acted, reacted, adapted, and
            moved on. What appeared superficially as nonchalance wasn't a lack of
            concern or even a disregard for the lives lost due to his decisions. He'd
            come far during that short period of time, but it was worth the trouble. It
            meant his participation and acceptance of life's vicissitudes, not
            withdrawal, negation, or belief that things are meant to be. They're 'meant
            to be' only after you've done what you're capable of doing. Johnson learned
            his limitations, not that he didn't care or that all was meant to be
            regardless of his actions.

            I've forgotten the pains of childbirth, traumas of my marriage, and my
            disabling accident yet they were all well worth the trouble and whatever
            positive things they've brought to my life. They weren't meant to be; they
            happened largely because of my decisions to be in those particular places at
            those particular times. Many were bad faith choices, inauthentic choices
            based in fear and against my instincts and sensibilities, choices formed
            from cultural norms and not in freedom. Though I can now say after some
            perspective they were no bother and I've learned invaluable lessons, I live
            with scars from all three, I can't have a lack of concern or fatalism,
            because these long term situations have affected other lives. Johnson
            forsook societal bonds only to find himself entangled with different one,
            but his freedom was short lived.

            Jeremiah Johnson a fatalist and nonchalant? I don't think so. Engaged and a
            man of action, stoic perhaps and skeptical about romanticizing nature or
            trespassing on Indian Country. Mutual respect between competitors was
            gained, but none of these would have occurred had Johnson never undertaken
            the experience.He considered that time as no trouble, not because he didn't
            care or was merely expressing bravado. It was no trouble because of
            developing mutual respect and responsible freedom. It's all a new life can
            prove to be and more.

            Mary




            ------------------------------------

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          • eduardathome
            Drones are going to cause havoc in the sky with commercial aircraft. The cost much less than helicopters and every radio and TV station in town will want one.
            Message 5 of 6 , Feb 4 2:33 PM
            • 0 Attachment
              Drones are going to cause havoc in the sky with commercial aircraft. The
              cost much less than helicopters and every radio and TV station in town will
              want one. And then the police, fire departments and Homeland Security.
              When OJ goes driving down the highway in Los Angeles again, he will be
              followed by a dozen or so drones all bumping into each other and into
              aircraft landing/taking off at LAX.

              eduard

              -----Original Message-----
              From: William
              Sent: Monday, February 04, 2013 2:33 PM
              To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [existlist] Re: Do the map



              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" wrote:
              >
              > Bill,
              >
              > If I haven't told you enough during our tenure here that I enjoy hearing
              > your experiences, consider it a fact that I do. I don't recall many of
              > eduard's, but I've no doubt they have contributed to his philosophy as
              > well. Richardson's experiences are affirmative for me in a different way,
              > but I've no inclination to become his Facebook friend. When it's active,
              > existlist is enough internet community for me to handle.
              >
              > Mary
              >Mary, yes I like old existlist and it seems to be quite clean of the bad
              >things in the newer sorts of communication. Now I see that Merlin writes
              >from a cave why do I think that may be true. You and Edward are stalwarts
              >of existentialism and it is great to see stability in this full "o' bull
              >world. Dick is a mad cap and adds the strange and different to the stew. I
              >know I write all over the place but that is how I see life, a broad swash
              >with little stories poking out of it.
              We have won the fight over the F16`s they are going back to airplane
              heaven.We are going to get the drones and the old school airmen are pissed
              off. The govenor is pissed off, and the real news is the personal will be
              replaced nearly man for man.
              It seems Syracuse has undergone a similar switch and there was a big fight
              over the change. The opponents claim that the drones will cause attacks on
              the city. The F16`s attacked the shit out of the islamic radicals and
              Syracuse was not attacked for the 16`s or the drones. I am reminded of Neal
              Young, we are getting a kinder, gentler machine gun hand.Isn`t progress
              great! I knew when I put in satellite radio that I had bugged myself. I have
              seen footage that can see through walls and roofs. For years I hung out
              in naturist places in the Carribean. If they are interseted I can`t stop
              them from watching. I really don`t think anyone gives a damn about what we
              say here.
              I am glad to beat back the old school conservatism and the 16`s had become
              part of that vast conspiracy. When it gets a bit warmer I will go out on the
              deck and say goodby to the roaring,snorting monsters. It they work as well
              as is said I doubt We will ever see a drone. They are to be like guardian
              angels, powerful but never seen or heard. So score one for Obama and a less
              obnoxious beleggerance by the brass hats. I still have my brass hat and I
              really look funny in it. I suppose I always did but we talk a lot about
              perspective here on this old site. Bill
              > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Bill, if by nonchalance you mean unconcern and eduard, if by fatalism
              > > > you mean destiny, then I have to disagree. I feel we're discussing two
              > > > different movies. If by nonchalance and fatalism you mean acceptance,
              > > > I agree but neither of these describe Existentialism which is an
              > > > argument against nihilism and fatalism, an argument against total
              > > > negation and the meant-to-be. Existentialism argues for engagement in
              > > > making a life which has meaning for you, only after which the average
              > > > of the sum may be calculated.
              > > >
              > > > Besides, those lines of dialogue between Lapp and Johnson, although at
              > > > the end of the film, weren't the end sum of Johnson's life; they were
              > > > a perspective at that particular moment regarding his experiences over
              > > > one fall and winter. Wiser for the journey, one can imagine he had
              > > > more adventures ahead. When you use the terms fatalism and nihilism
              > > > equally with existentialism, you can't really mean destiny, a total
              > > > negation of meaning or value, or feeling unconcern.
              > > >
              > > > Johnson left society and its wars to live alone in the mountains. Ill
              > > > prepared for his decision, he encountered hostile weather and angry
              > > > Crow. The irony of his story, that nature and solitude also have their
              > > > cost, is important. He couldn't avoid people and violence even in the
              > > > wilderness.They were merely of a different order. He shunned one set
              > > > of traditions and culture only to encounter a different one. I don't
              > > > think fatalism was a theme but more his original intention, his series
              > > > of choices, his growing respect for nature, limits, and the hard won
              > > > respect he gained from Chris Lapp and Paints His Shirt Red who
              > > > demanded respect for Crow tradition. The worst and pivotal choice in
              > > > the story involved Johnson's bad faith decision to lead soldiers
              > > > through Crow burial ground.
              > > >
              > > > If Johnson denied any trouble, it was because the distance he traveled
              > > > was worth it, not because it was meaningless or was fated. He warred,
              > > > he loved, he nurtured, he lost, and won. He meant 'so what.That's
              > > > life.' He wasn't fated to endure those hardships. He chose, acted,
              > > > reacted, adapted, and moved on. What appeared superficially as
              > > > nonchalance wasn't a lack of concern or even a disregard for the lives
              > > > lost due to his decisions. He'd come far during that short period of
              > > > time, but it was worth the trouble. It meant his participation and
              > > > acceptance of life's vicissitudes, not withdrawal, negation, or belief
              > > > that things are meant to be. They're 'meant to be' only after you've
              > > > done what you're capable of doing. Johnson learned his limitations,
              > > > not that he didn't care or that all was meant to be regardless of his
              > > > actions.
              > > >
              > > > I've forgotten the pains of childbirth, traumas of my marriage, and my
              > > > disabling accident yet they were all well worth the trouble and
              > > > whatever positive things they've brought to my life. They weren't
              > > > meant to be; they happened largely because of my decisions to be in
              > > > those particular places at those particular times. Many were bad faith
              > > > choices, inauthentic choices based in fear and against my instincts
              > > > and sensibilities, choices formed from cultural norms and not in
              > > > freedom. Though I can now say after some perspective they were no
              > > > bother and I've learned invaluable lessons, I live with scars from all
              > > > three, I can't have a lack of concern or fatalism, because these long
              > > > term situations have affected other lives. Johnson forsook societal
              > > > bonds only to find himself entangled with different one, but his
              > > > freedom was short lived.
              > > >
              > > > Jeremiah Johnson a fatalist and nonchalant? I don't think so. Engaged
              > > > and a man of action, stoic perhaps and skeptical about romanticizing
              > > > nature or trespassing on Indian Country. Mutual respect between
              > > > competitors was gained, but none of these would have occurred had
              > > > Johnson never undertaken the experience.He considered that time as no
              > > > trouble, not because he didn't care or was merely expressing bravado.
              > > > It was no trouble because of developing mutual respect and
              > > > responsible freedom. It's all a new life can prove to be and more.
              > > >
              > > > Mary
              > > >Mary, I have watched this movie many times and each time I see it as a
              > > >didderent experience. I cannot disagree with any of what you have just
              > > >written, I have thought all those things about it. Redford is such an
              > > >expressive actor, he is probably too much for the part. He`s too small,
              > > >too delicate to survive in the rockies over winters. He belongs
              > > >mugging with Barbara Strisand.
              > > A flint gray day at ten thousand feet comes to mind. So bleak and harsh
              > > that the people take on the hardness of the weather. I have met the
              > > workers in the molibdemnem mines. They will fight you for something to
              > > do. I have been in central City where my great grandfather rode shotgun
              > > guard on the silver wagons. The harshness even on good days is
              > > punishing. The indians did not go up there often it was too
              > > dangerous.So I do not stand on what I may have said about the movie, if
              > > I see it again it will be different. I see it as a mood movie and they
              > > caught the feeling of that huge area.
              > > I remember talking with a German who had come to ski. He was completely
              > > befuddled by the environment. He was suffering from altitude sickness
              > > and was trying to get back to Munich. He could not breath and he could
              > > not get rid of his headache. He was a lifelong skier but had never felt
              > > like this. I warned him that if he did not get down he could suffer
              > > angioneurotic edema and die. I got him on the shuttle to denver,hope he
              > > made it. The people who live there are not normal by flatlander
              > > standards. I think it to be genetic as I can survive there like my great
              > > grandfather.
              > > Today is gray and cold and I can take on the attitude even though I
              > > can breath. There you either have your supplies in or you perish. I have
              > > my supplies in and hunker down to stay warm . I an not too involved with
              > > anything ,it is a bit like hybernating. Even though I am involved in a
              > > good deal of business I am not sharp to it. I am back in the high cold
              > > and it just goes right through me.
              > > So talk of this movie throws snow on my mood and brings a foggy steam
              > > to my brain. It is not bad it is just another place I can go.
              > > The tree rat just came up and begged for food and I have a full bag of
              > > peanuts. We will both survive this winter even enjoy it. How mean and
              > > just. Bill
              > >
              >




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