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Science and scientists

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  • William
    Eduard, As you have found out Dick has little formal training in science. He is what you might call home schooled. He also equates knowing scientists with
    Message 1 of 7 , Jan 27, 2013
      Eduard, As you have found out Dick has little formal training in science. He is what you might call home schooled. He also equates knowing scientists with knowing science. You will not change his mind because he believes he knows science. In short knowing and believeing are definitional problems for Merlin. I do not think it makes him a bad guy , it just means he has a problem with perception. Had he had formal scientific training the statements he made about the sun would not have been posted.
      Knowing scientists does not mean you know science. Studying science under accredted scientists is a different matter as you well know. Bill
    • eduardathome
      Well ... it does get to be a bit much when he calls me dense and ignorant . I see this often. Some grand scheme like rocks having consciousness. It just
      Message 2 of 7 , Jan 27, 2013
        Well ... it does get to be a bit much when he calls me "dense" and
        "ignorant". I see this often. Some grand scheme like rocks having
        consciousness. It just doesn't work out when you look at it closely. Sure
        we are connected to everything else, simply because we are part of the
        universe. But that doesn't mean that the universe is somehow looking out
        for humanity or can think. Wheeler and others were at one time saying that
        the universe is only out there because we are here to see it. That idea
        also went down the drain. Which isn't to say that the concept of a cosmic
        consciousness isn't a neat, warm and fuzzy feeling idea. Humans have [or
        rather their brains have] invented all sorts of fantasies that are comfy,
        but not real. It's time we entered the 21st century.

        eduard

        -----Original Message-----
        From: William
        Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2013 6:01 PM
        To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [existlist] Science and scientists

        Eduard, As you have found out Dick has little formal training in science. He
        is what you might call home schooled. He also equates knowing scientists
        with knowing science. You will not change his mind because he believes he
        knows science. In short knowing and believeing are definitional problems for
        Merlin. I do not think it makes him a bad guy , it just means he has a
        problem with perception. Had he had formal scientific training the
        statements he made about the sun would not have been posted.
        Knowing scientists does not mean you know science. Studying science under
        accredted scientists is a different matter as you well know. Bill



        ------------------------------------

        Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining nothing!

        Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
      • Mary
        One of the wonderful areas of science is information theory. Using just a bit of the theory one can hypothesize, as did physicist David Bohm, that the brain
        Message 3 of 7 , Jan 27, 2013
          One of the wonderful areas of science is information theory. Using just a bit of the theory one can hypothesize, as did physicist David Bohm, that the brain and every other cosmic phenomenal structure receives and shares information. One could call this information 'consciousness' to the degree that it has stored properties. Awareness isn't limited to the human; that hubris would be an example of anthropomorphism. Awareness in an informational scheme which doesn't require a brain; it requires an interaction.

          May

          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
          >
          > Well ... it does get to be a bit much when he calls me "dense" and
          > "ignorant". I see this often. Some grand scheme like rocks having
          > consciousness. It just doesn't work out when you look at it closely. Sure
          > we are connected to everything else, simply because we are part of the
          > universe. But that doesn't mean that the universe is somehow looking out
          > for humanity or can think. Wheeler and others were at one time saying that
          > the universe is only out there because we are here to see it. That idea
          > also went down the drain. Which isn't to say that the concept of a cosmic
          > consciousness isn't a neat, warm and fuzzy feeling idea. Humans have [or
          > rather their brains have] invented all sorts of fantasies that are comfy,
          > but not real. It's time we entered the 21st century.
          >
          > eduard
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: William
          > Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2013 6:01 PM
          > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [existlist] Science and scientists
          >
          > Eduard, As you have found out Dick has little formal training in science. He
          > is what you might call home schooled. He also equates knowing scientists
          > with knowing science. You will not change his mind because he believes he
          > knows science. In short knowing and believeing are definitional problems for
          > Merlin. I do not think it makes him a bad guy , it just means he has a
          > problem with perception. Had he had formal scientific training the
          > statements he made about the sun would not have been posted.
          > Knowing scientists does not mean you know science. Studying science under
          > accredted scientists is a different matter as you well know. Bill
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining nothing!
          >
          > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
          >
        • Dick.
          You too are rather dim. I did no write that email I posted it on from the group which is mentioned at the bottom of it. Can any of you even READ? I have done
          Message 4 of 7 , Jan 27, 2013
            You too are rather dim. I did no write that email I posted it on from
            the group which is mentioned at the bottom of it. Can any of you even
            READ? I have done science all my life sweatpea. It is you lot that
            don't seem to know the difference bwtenn KNOWING and Be-liefing-
            be-wishing.

            Dick Richardson

            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" wrote:
            >
            > Eduard, As you have found out Dick has little formal training in
            science. He is what you might call home schooled. He also equates
            knowing scientists with knowing science. You will not change his mind
            because he believes he knows science. In short knowing and believeing
            are definitional problems for Merlin. I do not think it makes him a bad
            guy , it just means he has a problem with perception. Had he had
            formal scientific training the statements he made about the sun would
            not have been posted.
            > Knowing scientists does not mean you know science. Studying science
            under accredted scientists is a different matter as you well know. Bill
            >



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • eduardathome
            Yes, you can redefine consciousness so that it no longer means consciousness . Consciousness ... as used to be the word ... has the meaning of being aware.
            Message 5 of 7 , Jan 28, 2013
              Yes, you can redefine "consciousness" so that it no longer means
              "consciousness".

              Consciousness ... as used to be the word ... has the meaning of being aware.
              If you send a rock to Pluto, you have an interaction. But that does not
              mean that Pluto is aware of anything.

              eduard

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Mary
              Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2013 11:09 PM
              To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [existlist] Re: Science and scientists

              One of the wonderful areas of science is information theory. Using just a
              bit of the theory one can hypothesize, as did physicist David Bohm, that the
              brain and every other cosmic phenomenal structure receives and shares
              information. One could call this information 'consciousness' to the degree
              that it has stored properties. Awareness isn't limited to the human; that
              hubris would be an example of anthropomorphism. Awareness in an
              informational scheme which doesn't require a brain; it requires an
              interaction.

              May

              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
              >
              > Well ... it does get to be a bit much when he calls me "dense" and
              > "ignorant". I see this often. Some grand scheme like rocks having
              > consciousness. It just doesn't work out when you look at it closely.
              > Sure
              > we are connected to everything else, simply because we are part of the
              > universe. But that doesn't mean that the universe is somehow looking out
              > for humanity or can think. Wheeler and others were at one time saying
              > that
              > the universe is only out there because we are here to see it. That idea
              > also went down the drain. Which isn't to say that the concept of a cosmic
              > consciousness isn't a neat, warm and fuzzy feeling idea. Humans have [or
              > rather their brains have] invented all sorts of fantasies that are comfy,
              > but not real. It's time we entered the 21st century.
              >
              > eduard
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: William
              > Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2013 6:01 PM
              > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [existlist] Science and scientists
              >
              > Eduard, As you have found out Dick has little formal training in science.
              > He
              > is what you might call home schooled. He also equates knowing scientists
              > with knowing science. You will not change his mind because he believes he
              > knows science. In short knowing and believeing are definitional problems
              > for
              > Merlin. I do not think it makes him a bad guy , it just means he has a
              > problem with perception. Had he had formal scientific training the
              > statements he made about the sun would not have been posted.
              > Knowing scientists does not mean you know science. Studying science under
              > accredted scientists is a different matter as you well know. Bill
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining nothing!
              >
              > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
              >




              ------------------------------------

              Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining nothing!

              Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
            • Mary
              eduard, I m not redefining consciousness but asserting a different concept which might be more relevant, such as information and information systems. After all
              Message 6 of 7 , Jan 29, 2013
                eduard,

                I'm not redefining consciousness but asserting a different concept which might be more relevant, such as information and information systems. After all what is consciousness but a highly complex and integrated system of information? In order to accommodate the vastness of the universe as well as the most fundamental chemical interactions, a medium of exchange needs to be defined. Who cares if a robot or a rock has consciousness or free will? Information can be exchanged without consciousness. Remove the words spirit, energy, and consciousness from an interaction and you are left with only information, information of such complexity we can never know it all.

                Mary

                --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
                >
                > Yes, you can redefine "consciousness" so that it no longer means
                > "consciousness".
                >
                > Consciousness ... as used to be the word ... has the meaning of being aware.
                > If you send a rock to Pluto, you have an interaction. But that does not
                > mean that Pluto is aware of anything.
                >
                > eduard
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Mary
                > Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2013 11:09 PM
                > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: [existlist] Re: Science and scientists
                >
                > One of the wonderful areas of science is information theory. Using just a
                > bit of the theory one can hypothesize, as did physicist David Bohm, that the
                > brain and every other cosmic phenomenal structure receives and shares
                > information. One could call this information 'consciousness' to the degree
                > that it has stored properties. Awareness isn't limited to the human; that
                > hubris would be an example of anthropomorphism. Awareness in an
                > informational scheme which doesn't require a brain; it requires an
                > interaction.
                >
                > May
                >
                > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
                > >
                > > Well ... it does get to be a bit much when he calls me "dense" and
                > > "ignorant". I see this often. Some grand scheme like rocks having
                > > consciousness. It just doesn't work out when you look at it closely.
                > > Sure
                > > we are connected to everything else, simply because we are part of the
                > > universe. But that doesn't mean that the universe is somehow looking out
                > > for humanity or can think. Wheeler and others were at one time saying
                > > that
                > > the universe is only out there because we are here to see it. That idea
                > > also went down the drain. Which isn't to say that the concept of a cosmic
                > > consciousness isn't a neat, warm and fuzzy feeling idea. Humans have [or
                > > rather their brains have] invented all sorts of fantasies that are comfy,
                > > but not real. It's time we entered the 21st century.
                > >
                > > eduard
                > >
                > > -----Original Message-----
                > > From: William
                > > Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2013 6:01 PM
                > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                > > Subject: [existlist] Science and scientists
                > >
                > > Eduard, As you have found out Dick has little formal training in science.
                > > He
                > > is what you might call home schooled. He also equates knowing scientists
                > > with knowing science. You will not change his mind because he believes he
                > > knows science. In short knowing and believeing are definitional problems
                > > for
                > > Merlin. I do not think it makes him a bad guy , it just means he has a
                > > problem with perception. Had he had formal scientific training the
                > > statements he made about the sun would not have been posted.
                > > Knowing scientists does not mean you know science. Studying science under
                > > accredted scientists is a different matter as you well know. Bill
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > ------------------------------------
                > >
                > > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining nothing!
                > >
                > > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining nothing!
                >
                > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
                >
              • eduardathome
                If it is a matter of exchanging information, then it isn t consciousness . And as you say, Information can be exchanged without consciousness. Words are
                Message 7 of 7 , Jan 29, 2013
                  If it is a matter of exchanging information, then it isn't "consciousness".
                  And as you say, "Information can be exchanged without consciousness." Words
                  are important as is their meaning. We tend to bend words and use them in
                  other senses, because it seems appropriate at the time. There is no cosmic
                  consciousness, although the cosmos can exchange information, because rocks
                  do not have a brain. Pluto isn't out there pondering the fact that it
                  exists. I doubt it is offended because it is no longer termed a "planet".

                  eduard


                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Mary
                  Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 10:44 AM
                  To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [existlist] Re: Science and scientists

                  eduard,

                  I'm not redefining consciousness but asserting a different concept which
                  might be more relevant, such as information and information systems. After
                  all what is consciousness but a highly complex and integrated system of
                  information? In order to accommodate the vastness of the universe as well as
                  the most fundamental chemical interactions, a medium of exchange needs to be
                  defined. Who cares if a robot or a rock has consciousness or free will?
                  Information can be exchanged without consciousness. Remove the words spirit,
                  energy, and consciousness from an interaction and you are left with only
                  information, information of such complexity we can never know it all.

                  Mary

                  --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
                  >
                  > Yes, you can redefine "consciousness" so that it no longer means
                  > "consciousness".
                  >
                  > Consciousness ... as used to be the word ... has the meaning of being
                  > aware.
                  > If you send a rock to Pluto, you have an interaction. But that does not
                  > mean that Pluto is aware of anything.
                  >
                  > eduard
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: Mary
                  > Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2013 11:09 PM
                  > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: [existlist] Re: Science and scientists
                  >
                  > One of the wonderful areas of science is information theory. Using just a
                  > bit of the theory one can hypothesize, as did physicist David Bohm, that
                  > the
                  > brain and every other cosmic phenomenal structure receives and shares
                  > information. One could call this information 'consciousness' to the degree
                  > that it has stored properties. Awareness isn't limited to the human; that
                  > hubris would be an example of anthropomorphism. Awareness in an
                  > informational scheme which doesn't require a brain; it requires an
                  > interaction.
                  >
                  > May
                  >
                  > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Well ... it does get to be a bit much when he calls me "dense" and
                  > > "ignorant". I see this often. Some grand scheme like rocks having
                  > > consciousness. It just doesn't work out when you look at it closely.
                  > > Sure
                  > > we are connected to everything else, simply because we are part of the
                  > > universe. But that doesn't mean that the universe is somehow looking
                  > > out
                  > > for humanity or can think. Wheeler and others were at one time saying
                  > > that
                  > > the universe is only out there because we are here to see it. That idea
                  > > also went down the drain. Which isn't to say that the concept of a
                  > > cosmic
                  > > consciousness isn't a neat, warm and fuzzy feeling idea. Humans have
                  > > [or
                  > > rather their brains have] invented all sorts of fantasies that are
                  > > comfy,
                  > > but not real. It's time we entered the 21st century.
                  > >
                  > > eduard
                  > >
                  > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > From: William
                  > > Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2013 6:01 PM
                  > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Subject: [existlist] Science and scientists
                  > >
                  > > Eduard, As you have found out Dick has little formal training in
                  > > science.
                  > > He
                  > > is what you might call home schooled. He also equates knowing
                  > > scientists
                  > > with knowing science. You will not change his mind because he believes
                  > > he
                  > > knows science. In short knowing and believeing are definitional problems
                  > > for
                  > > Merlin. I do not think it makes him a bad guy , it just means he has a
                  > > problem with perception. Had he had formal scientific training the
                  > > statements he made about the sun would not have been posted.
                  > > Knowing scientists does not mean you know science. Studying science
                  > > under
                  > > accredted scientists is a different matter as you well know. Bill
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ------------------------------------
                  > >
                  > > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining
                  > > nothing!
                  > >
                  > > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining nothing!
                  >
                  > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
                  >




                  ------------------------------------

                  Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining nothing!

                  Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
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