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Loyal opposition

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  • Mary
    From a minority point of view, some of us are both loyal to and opposed to some of Obama s policies. I continue to congratulate and disagree with him through
    Message 1 of 7 , Jan 25, 2013
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      From a minority point of view, some of us are both loyal to and opposed to some of Obama's policies. I continue to congratulate and disagree with him through petitions. Centrism is a problem, and Bill's mention of how killing the enemy is made more palatable for the public is a tactic of centrism. As if they know what's best for everyone else without having to come in direct contact with the realities of the policies they espouse. Show them a royal who does, and the Left is shown what for. Here's an article which before the election would have made no difference to me. I did not want Romney to win. However, I don't want centrists to continue shaping American policy. No, they're not as obviously noxious as the Koch Bros. and their fellow conservative aristocrats, but their centrist elitism is just as dangerous. I can applaud Ms. Clinton on her accomplishments on the one hand but disagree with how she's promoted a centrist doctrine of war on the other. Is mine a sustained incoherence or is it merely an ambivalence constantly needing to choose between the lesser of all evils? Apathy is a luxury.

      http://www.huffingtonpost.com/leighton-woodhouse/political-centrism-hoax_b_1657827.html

      Mary
    • William
      ... Mary, constant reevaluation is a worthwhile point of existentialism. Doctrine just sits there and demands. Science reevaluates and so does
      Message 2 of 7 , Jan 25, 2013
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        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" wrote:
        >
        > From a minority point of view, some of us are both loyal to and opposed to some of Obama's policies. I continue to congratulate and disagree with him through petitions. Centrism is a problem, and Bill's mention of how killing the enemy is made more palatable for the public is a tactic of centrism. As if they know what's best for everyone else without having to come in direct contact with the realities of the policies they espouse. Show them a royal who does, and the Left is shown what for. Here's an article which before the election would have made no difference to me. I did not want Romney to win. However, I don't want centrists to continue shaping American policy. No, they're not as obviously noxious as the Koch Bros. and their fellow conservative aristocrats, but their centrist elitism is just as dangerous. I can applaud Ms. Clinton on her accomplishments on the one hand but disagree with how she's promoted a centrist doctrine of war on the other. Is mine a sustained incoherence or is it merely an ambivalence constantly needing to choose between the lesser of all evils? Apathy is a luxury.
        >
        > http://www.huffingtonpost.com/leighton-woodhouse/political-centrism-hoax_b_1657827.html
        >
        > Mary
        >
        Mary, constant reevaluation is a worthwhile point of existentialism. Doctrine just sits there and demands. Science reevaluates and so does existentialism.I am not sure what is meant by centrism. It is not a political party but it seems exposed to political methods. Molding public opinion is a central job of politicians. Human killing,the most odious thing about war, can be sanitised. Proving an absolute threat to the country makes killing a necessity. Fighting a group like the Taliban does not rise to that level of threat.
        Therefore other methods of persuasion are used. Using a royal as an example can be most impressive to the young, the ones who will do the killing. Firing a multi barreled machine cannon from an Apache is a very exciting activity to many agressive young people.If you get medals and rank for doing such things makes it even more desirable. Cutting humans to hamburger is handily forgotten. I fear the visions of flying chunks of flesh and bone will come back to haunt these combatants. Even the drone pilots are beginning to show symptoms of post traumatic stress. Some of the protestors here who opposed the drone base fear retaliation here in the states. To my knowledge the F16`s never drew terrorist attention and they were much more conspicuous that a few non discript buildings on an air base.
        I would like you to explain centrism in more detail. I have been told Obama is a leftist. If he is a centrist how do they differ. As yet the term is not clear to me. Who are the centrists, what do they do? What are they thinking? Bill
      • Mary
        Bill, I don t think the terms Left or Right mean much to a centrist, but creating and influencing policies which protect their expanding wealth do. Centrism is
        Message 3 of 7 , Jan 25, 2013
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          Bill,

          I don't think the terms Left or Right mean much to a centrist, but creating and influencing policies which protect their expanding wealth do. Centrism is a shifting, flexible approach to power which plays both sides against an imaginary middle and it's simply the policies of the few who have no problem maintaining a welfare state, because it's a manageable threat. The poor we will always have, etc. as long as there aren't too many, so massive strikes and insurgence don't occur. Gridlock is probably okay too, because that gives them time to shuffle their assets into more protected havens and to find enough pockets to line. In short centrism is any policy which appears sensible but doesn't really change anything for the better in the long term, except for those who control most of the wealth. I would say our President has the burden of choosing counselors who represent the many.

          Mary

          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" wrote:
          > >
          > > From a minority point of view, some of us are both loyal to and opposed to some of Obama's policies. I continue to congratulate and disagree with him through petitions. Centrism is a problem, and Bill's mention of how killing the enemy is made more palatable for the public is a tactic of centrism. As if they know what's best for everyone else without having to come in direct contact with the realities of the policies they espouse. Show them a royal who does, and the Left is shown what for. Here's an article which before the election would have made no difference to me. I did not want Romney to win. However, I don't want centrists to continue shaping American policy. No, they're not as obviously noxious as the Koch Bros. and their fellow conservative aristocrats, but their centrist elitism is just as dangerous. I can applaud Ms. Clinton on her accomplishments on the one hand but disagree with how she's promoted a centrist doctrine of war on the other. Is mine a sustained incoherence or is it merely an ambivalence constantly needing to choose between the lesser of all evils? Apathy is a luxury.
          > >
          > > http://www.huffingtonpost.com/leighton-woodhouse/political-centrism-hoax_b_1657827.html
          > >
          > > Mary
          > >
          > Mary, constant reevaluation is a worthwhile point of existentialism. Doctrine just sits there and demands. Science reevaluates and so does existentialism.I am not sure what is meant by centrism. It is not a political party but it seems exposed to political methods. Molding public opinion is a central job of politicians. Human killing,the most odious thing about war, can be sanitised. Proving an absolute threat to the country makes killing a necessity. Fighting a group like the Taliban does not rise to that level of threat.
          > Therefore other methods of persuasion are used. Using a royal as an example can be most impressive to the young, the ones who will do the killing. Firing a multi barreled machine cannon from an Apache is a very exciting activity to many agressive young people.If you get medals and rank for doing such things makes it even more desirable. Cutting humans to hamburger is handily forgotten. I fear the visions of flying chunks of flesh and bone will come back to haunt these combatants. Even the drone pilots are beginning to show symptoms of post traumatic stress. Some of the protestors here who opposed the drone base fear retaliation here in the states. To my knowledge the F16`s never drew terrorist attention and they were much more conspicuous that a few non discript buildings on an air base.
          > I would like you to explain centrism in more detail. I have been told Obama is a leftist. If he is a centrist how do they differ. As yet the term is not clear to me. Who are the centrists, what do they do? What are they thinking? Bill
          >
        • William
          ... Now this scorched earth brand of conservatism that we have faced for the last 12 years is a different matter. Complete obstructionism does not work,it
          Message 4 of 7 , Jan 25, 2013
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            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" wrote:
            >
            > Bill,
            >
            > I don't think the terms Left or Right mean much to a centrist, but creating and influencing policies which protect their expanding wealth do. Centrism is a shifting, flexible approach to power which plays both sides against an imaginary middle and it's simply the policies of the few who have no problem maintaining a welfare state, because it's a manageable threat. The poor we will always have, etc. as long as there aren't too many, so massive strikes and insurgence don't occur. Gridlock is probably okay too, because that gives them time to shuffle their assets into more protected havens and to find enough pockets to line. In short centrism is any policy which appears sensible but doesn't really change anything for the better in the long term, except for those who control most of the wealth. I would say our President has the burden of choosing counselors who represent the many.
            >
            > Mary
            >Mary, using your definition I could be called a centrist. I think it proper to promote policies the benefit my economics. To do anything else is suicidial. Let me give an example, this state has a surplus. Tax reductions are being considered. The republicans want property tax reductions on commercial property. Now democrats want reductions on residential property taxes. Since I just sold my business and so I favor residential property tax reductions. Am a centrist for favoring my own best interests? Favoring positions well within the normal course of politics seems to me to be the exercise of rights within the democracy.
            Now this scorched earth brand of conservatism that we have faced for the last 12 years is a different matter. Complete obstructionism does not work,it destroys progress and trust.
            Rich democrats would seem to be in your sights. Since I am not rich I would think you would not consider me a centrist. I might point to the rich dems in Davos. Are they the people with which you wish to contend ? Forcing them out would seem to push them toward the tea bagger camp and I do not want more of those radical nincumpoops.
            I think if the poor want to become middle class they need organise and use their numbers to force democratic change. Are you saying Obama is not heedful of their positions? Bill
            > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" wrote:
            > > >
            > > > From a minority point of view, some of us are both loyal to and opposed to some of Obama's policies. I continue to congratulate and disagree with him through petitions. Centrism is a problem, and Bill's mention of how killing the enemy is made more palatable for the public is a tactic of centrism. As if they know what's best for everyone else without having to come in direct contact with the realities of the policies they espouse. Show them a royal who does, and the Left is shown what for. Here's an article which before the election would have made no difference to me. I did not want Romney to win. However, I don't want centrists to continue shaping American policy. No, they're not as obviously noxious as the Koch Bros. and their fellow conservative aristocrats, but their centrist elitism is just as dangerous. I can applaud Ms. Clinton on her accomplishments on the one hand but disagree with how she's promoted a centrist doctrine of war on the other. Is mine a sustained incoherence or is it merely an ambivalence constantly needing to choose between the lesser of all evils? Apathy is a luxury.
            > > >
            > > > http://www.huffingtonpost.com/leighton-woodhouse/political-centrism-hoax_b_1657827.html
            > > >
            > > > Mary
            > > >
            > > Mary, constant reevaluation is a worthwhile point of existentialism. Doctrine just sits there and demands. Science reevaluates and so does existentialism.I am not sure what is meant by centrism. It is not a political party but it seems exposed to political methods. Molding public opinion is a central job of politicians. Human killing,the most odious thing about war, can be sanitised. Proving an absolute threat to the country makes killing a necessity. Fighting a group like the Taliban does not rise to that level of threat.
            > > Therefore other methods of persuasion are used. Using a royal as an example can be most impressive to the young, the ones who will do the killing. Firing a multi barreled machine cannon from an Apache is a very exciting activity to many agressive young people.If you get medals and rank for doing such things makes it even more desirable. Cutting humans to hamburger is handily forgotten. I fear the visions of flying chunks of flesh and bone will come back to haunt these combatants. Even the drone pilots are beginning to show symptoms of post traumatic stress. Some of the protestors here who opposed the drone base fear retaliation here in the states. To my knowledge the F16`s never drew terrorist attention and they were much more conspicuous that a few non discript buildings on an air base.
            > > I would like you to explain centrism in more detail. I have been told Obama is a leftist. If he is a centrist how do they differ. As yet the term is not clear to me. Who are the centrists, what do they do? What are they thinking? Bill
            > >
            >
          • eduardathome
            [I can applaud Ms. Clinton on her accomplishments on the one hand but disagree with how she s promoted a centrist doctrine of war on the other.] I don t see
            Message 5 of 7 , Jan 25, 2013
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              [I can applaud Ms. Clinton on her accomplishments on the one hand but
              disagree with how she's promoted a centrist doctrine of war on the other.]

              I don't see Ms. Clinton as a centrist ... whatever that means ... she is
              just going with the flow now that the Afghan and Iraqi wars are turning down
              and the concerns are the world movement of terrorists. Actually, I don't
              see the Secretary of State promoting any doctrine of war. The Secretary of
              State is responsible for foreign policy, but I don't see him/her formulating
              such policy in the absence of the White House. But I could be wrong.

              eduard

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Mary
              Sent: Friday, January 25, 2013 12:44 PM
              To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [existlist] Loyal opposition

              From a minority point of view, some of us are both loyal to and opposed to
              some of Obama's policies. I continue to congratulate and disagree with him
              through petitions. Centrism is a problem, and Bill's mention of how killing
              the enemy is made more palatable for the public is a tactic of centrism. As
              if they know what's best for everyone else without having to come in direct
              contact with the realities of the policies they espouse. Show them a royal
              who does, and the Left is shown what for. Here's an article which before the
              election would have made no difference to me. I did not want Romney to win.
              However, I don't want centrists to continue shaping American policy. No,
              they're not as obviously noxious as the Koch Bros. and their fellow
              conservative aristocrats, but their centrist elitism is just as dangerous. I
              can applaud Ms. Clinton on her accomplishments on the one hand but disagree
              with how she's promoted a centrist doctrine of war on the other. Is mine a
              sustained incoherence
              or is it merely an ambivalence constantly needing to choose between the
              lesser of all evils? Apathy is a luxury.

              http://www.huffingtonpost.com/leighton-woodhouse/political-centrism-hoax_b_1657827.html

              Mary



              ------------------------------------

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            • Mary
              Bill, Voting in your best interests does not make you a centrist, and you re not one of the elite. You are not centrist because you re independent. You re
              Message 6 of 7 , Jan 27, 2013
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                Bill,

                Voting in your best interests does not make you a centrist, and you're not one of the elite. You are not centrist because you're independent. You're centrist because you support economic growth regardless of the consequences and think moderation is always the wise course. Obama supports some centrist policies and is not as left as you think; he only seems so when compared with neocons. Centrism is a leftist criticism, a position not without sympathy for Obama's accomplishments, however historically tardy they appear.

                Mary


                --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" wrote:
                > >
                > > Bill,
                > >
                > > I don't think the terms Left or Right mean much to a centrist, but creating and influencing policies which protect their expanding wealth do. Centrism is a shifting, flexible approach to power which plays both sides against an imaginary middle and it's simply the policies of the few who have no problem maintaining a welfare state, because it's a manageable threat. The poor we will always have, etc. as long as there aren't too many, so massive strikes and insurgence don't occur. Gridlock is probably okay too, because that gives them time to shuffle their assets into more protected havens and to find enough pockets to line. In short centrism is any policy which appears sensible but doesn't really change anything for the better in the long term, except for those who control most of the wealth. I would say our President has the burden of choosing counselors who represent the many.
                > >
                > > Mary
                > >Mary, using your definition I could be called a centrist. I think it proper to promote policies the benefit my economics. To do anything else is suicidial. Let me give an example, this state has a surplus. Tax reductions are being considered. The republicans want property tax reductions on commercial property. Now democrats want reductions on residential property taxes. Since I just sold my business and so I favor residential property tax reductions. Am a centrist for favoring my own best interests? Favoring positions well within the normal course of politics seems to me to be the exercise of rights within the democracy.
                > Now this scorched earth brand of conservatism that we have faced for the last 12 years is a different matter. Complete obstructionism does not work,it destroys progress and trust.
                > Rich democrats would seem to be in your sights. Since I am not rich I would think you would not consider me a centrist. I might point to the rich dems in Davos. Are they the people with which you wish to contend ? Forcing them out would seem to push them toward the tea bagger camp and I do not want more of those radical nincumpoops.
                > I think if the poor want to become middle class they need organise and use their numbers to force democratic change. Are you saying Obama is not heedful of their positions? Bill
                > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" wrote:
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > From a minority point of view, some of us are both loyal to and opposed to some of Obama's policies. I continue to congratulate and disagree with him through petitions. Centrism is a problem, and Bill's mention of how killing the enemy is made more palatable for the public is a tactic of centrism. As if they know what's best for everyone else without having to come in direct contact with the realities of the policies they espouse. Show them a royal who does, and the Left is shown what for. Here's an article which before the election would have made no difference to me. I did not want Romney to win. However, I don't want centrists to continue shaping American policy. No, they're not as obviously noxious as the Koch Bros. and their fellow conservative aristocrats, but their centrist elitism is just as dangerous. I can applaud Ms. Clinton on her accomplishments on the one hand but disagree with how she's promoted a centrist doctrine of war on the other. Is mine a sustained incoherence or is it merely an ambivalence constantly needing to choose between the lesser of all evils? Apathy is a luxury.
                > > > >
                > > > > http://www.huffingtonpost.com/leighton-woodhouse/political-centrism-hoax_b_1657827.html
                > > > >
                > > > > Mary
                > > > >
                > > > Mary, constant reevaluation is a worthwhile point of existentialism. Doctrine just sits there and demands. Science reevaluates and so does existentialism.I am not sure what is meant by centrism. It is not a political party but it seems exposed to political methods. Molding public opinion is a central job of politicians. Human killing,the most odious thing about war, can be sanitised. Proving an absolute threat to the country makes killing a necessity. Fighting a group like the Taliban does not rise to that level of threat.
                > > > Therefore other methods of persuasion are used. Using a royal as an example can be most impressive to the young, the ones who will do the killing. Firing a multi barreled machine cannon from an Apache is a very exciting activity to many agressive young people.If you get medals and rank for doing such things makes it even more desirable. Cutting humans to hamburger is handily forgotten. I fear the visions of flying chunks of flesh and bone will come back to haunt these combatants. Even the drone pilots are beginning to show symptoms of post traumatic stress. Some of the protestors here who opposed the drone base fear retaliation here in the states. To my knowledge the F16`s never drew terrorist attention and they were much more conspicuous that a few non discript buildings on an air base.
                > > > I would like you to explain centrism in more detail. I have been told Obama is a leftist. If he is a centrist how do they differ. As yet the term is not clear to me. Who are the centrists, what do they do? What are they thinking? Bill
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • William
                Message 7 of 7 , Jan 27, 2013
                • 0 Attachment
                  --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" wrote:
                  >
                  > Bill,
                  >
                  > Voting in your best interests does not make you a centrist, and you're not one of the elite. You are not centrist because you're independent. You're centrist because you support economic growth regardless of the consequences and think moderation is always the wise course. Obama supports some centrist policies and is not as left as you think; he only seems so when compared with neocons. Centrism is a leftist criticism, a position not without sympathy for Obama's accomplishments, however historically tardy they appear.
                  >
                  > Mary
                  > Mary, remember when liberal was a dirty word? It sounds like the neocons want centrist to replace liberal. I just listened to Jendahl and Ryan. There is nothing new there just old time dixicrat jargon. Jendahl called his own party stupid. Ryan is ignoring the signs of economic reinvigoration. He is still spouting the duty to our children mantra. I rewatched "Casino Jack" ,the story of Jack Abranhoff. That was the time of the neocon and the texas size corruption. They were all there The hammer and George and of course Jack. Saxby Chambless ,on his way out, says the liberals are trying to irradicate his kind. I hope so!My Senator announced his retirement . Tom Harkin fought so long and hard ,Vietnam War, Americans with Disabilities Act and combat with the necon right.Now he is called a prarie populist.The right could not make the big city liberal name stick. He did too much for agriculture . I like Congressman Braley for Harkins replacement. He is a solid legislator and is well liked in his district. Former govenors Vilsac and Culver are also mentioned. Harkin leaves a ton of seniority behind, he left to enjoy and live his remaining days. That would seem to be the mark of a well balanced man. I am glad to hear his decision and thank him for his service,so long and so well done. He was a coal miners son and I went to his High School. He has long been my hero and I wish him a happy retirement with his wife Ruth. Good move and good luck Sen Tom. Bill
                  >
                  > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Bill,
                  > > >
                  > > > I don't think the terms Left or Right mean much to a centrist, but creating and influencing policies which protect their expanding wealth do. Centrism is a shifting, flexible approach to power which plays both sides against an imaginary middle and it's simply the policies of the few who have no problem maintaining a welfare state, because it's a manageable threat. The poor we will always have, etc. as long as there aren't too many, so massive strikes and insurgence don't occur. Gridlock is probably okay too, because that gives them time to shuffle their assets into more protected havens and to find enough pockets to line. In short centrism is any policy which appears sensible but doesn't really change anything for the better in the long term, except for those who control most of the wealth. I would say our President has the burden of choosing counselors who represent the many.
                  > > >
                  > > > Mary
                  > > >Mary, using your definition I could be called a centrist. I think it proper to promote policies the benefit my economics. To do anything else is suicidial. Let me give an example, this state has a surplus. Tax reductions are being considered. The republicans want property tax reductions on commercial property. Now democrats want reductions on residential property taxes. Since I just sold my business and so I favor residential property tax reductions. Am a centrist for favoring my own best interests? Favoring positions well within the normal course of politics seems to me to be the exercise of rights within the democracy.
                  > > Now this scorched earth brand of conservatism that we have faced for the last 12 years is a different matter. Complete obstructionism does not work,it destroys progress and trust.
                  > > Rich democrats would seem to be in your sights. Since I am not rich I would think you would not consider me a centrist. I might point to the rich dems in Davos. Are they the people with which you wish to contend ? Forcing them out would seem to push them toward the tea bagger camp and I do not want more of those radical nincumpoops.
                  > > I think if the poor want to become middle class they need organise and use their numbers to force democratic change. Are you saying Obama is not heedful of their positions? Bill
                  > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" wrote:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > From a minority point of view, some of us are both loyal to and opposed to some of Obama's policies. I continue to congratulate and disagree with him through petitions. Centrism is a problem, and Bill's mention of how killing the enemy is made more palatable for the public is a tactic of centrism. As if they know what's best for everyone else without having to come in direct contact with the realities of the policies they espouse. Show them a royal who does, and the Left is shown what for. Here's an article which before the election would have made no difference to me. I did not want Romney to win. However, I don't want centrists to continue shaping American policy. No, they're not as obviously noxious as the Koch Bros. and their fellow conservative aristocrats, but their centrist elitism is just as dangerous. I can applaud Ms. Clinton on her accomplishments on the one hand but disagree with how she's promoted a centrist doctrine of war on the other. Is mine a sustained incoherence or is it merely an ambivalence constantly needing to choose between the lesser of all evils? Apathy is a luxury.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > http://www.huffingtonpost.com/leighton-woodhouse/political-centrism-hoax_b_1657827.html
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Mary
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > Mary, constant reevaluation is a worthwhile point of existentialism. Doctrine just sits there and demands. Science reevaluates and so does existentialism.I am not sure what is meant by centrism. It is not a political party but it seems exposed to political methods. Molding public opinion is a central job of politicians. Human killing,the most odious thing about war, can be sanitised. Proving an absolute threat to the country makes killing a necessity. Fighting a group like the Taliban does not rise to that level of threat.
                  > > > > Therefore other methods of persuasion are used. Using a royal as an example can be most impressive to the young, the ones who will do the killing. Firing a multi barreled machine cannon from an Apache is a very exciting activity to many agressive young people.If you get medals and rank for doing such things makes it even more desirable. Cutting humans to hamburger is handily forgotten. I fear the visions of flying chunks of flesh and bone will come back to haunt these combatants. Even the drone pilots are beginning to show symptoms of post traumatic stress. Some of the protestors here who opposed the drone base fear retaliation here in the states. To my knowledge the F16`s never drew terrorist attention and they were much more conspicuous that a few non discript buildings on an air base.
                  > > > > I would like you to explain centrism in more detail. I have been told Obama is a leftist. If he is a centrist how do they differ. As yet the term is not clear to me. Who are the centrists, what do they do? What are they thinking? Bill
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
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