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Re: The Safeguard of Ignorance

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  • Dick.
    So the evolution of conscious awareness has no value? Well you must be the expert on that as well. Perhaps you would care to tell us what such experiences
    Message 1 of 8 , Jan 23, 2013
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      So the evolution of conscious awareness has no value? Well you must be
      the expert on that as well. Perhaps you would care to tell us what such
      experiences reveal and what effects they have. Perhaps you could also
      name a few people who were mystics. How many mystical experiences have
      you had and how long have you been having them? Hey, tell me, was Abdus
      Salam a mystic or not? Did he fleece people for money by spewing a load
      of junk and getting rich on the proceeds? Do you know what you are
      talking about? What effect did they have on you? Tell us about it.

      As for mining for minerals on asteroids and other bodies in space in
      time to come then it would only cost a lot of money to societies that
      used money as a means of exchange for labour. But for those who did not
      then it would not cost anything at all; other than work and effort.

      So you can appreciate that Wilde made that comment just for effect? And
      that makes it right does it? I can appreciate that he did not. I can
      appreciate that he meant it. When you talk and write then what effect
      are you aiming to achieve? And why?

      rwr

      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
      >
      > Probably because myticism has never revealed it has anything of value,
      and
      > this stuff such as "altered states of consciousness" has not been
      shown to
      > be real. In the information age, people just get tired of hearing the
      same
      > old, same old. Like Oral Roberts saying that god would "call him
      home"
      > unless he got another $8 million in donations. Or that Guru in Oregon
      with
      > his 93 Rolls-Royces. It's no wonder there is some hostility.
      >
      > eduard
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Dick.
      > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2013 12:07 PM
      > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [existlist] The Safeguard of Ignorance
      >
      >
      > The Safeguard of Ignorance
      >
      > [ Why is there still so much hostility to even the mention of
      mysticism
      > and altered states of conscious, and the effects of becoming aware of
      > more as a result of it? ]
      >
      > The safeguard of ignorance and its vested interests on the one hand
      and
      > fear of the unknown on the other. They make perfect bedfellows; like
      a
      > shell around a nut. The preceding email pays testimony to this.
      >
      > rwr
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining
      nothing!
      >
      > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
      >



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • devindersingh
      THERE is a mental approach to spiritual truths and there is a direct and immediate approach or rather contact. The mind sees as though through a mist, a
      Message 2 of 8 , Jan 23, 2013
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        THERE is a mental approach to spiritual truths and there is a direct and immediate approach or rather contact. The mind sees as though through a mist, a darkling glass, a more or less opaque veil, and the thing envisaged presents a blurred and not unoften a deformed appearance. The mind has its own pre-dispositions – its own categories and terms, its own forms and figures-which it has to use when it seeks to express that which is beyond it. Naturally the object, the truth as it is, it cannot apprehend or represent; it gives as it were the reverse side of an embroidery work. It goes round about the thing, has to take recourse to all kinds of contortions and gymnastics and grimaces to ape the natural gesture of the truth. But mind acts in this way, as a veil rather than' a medium, when one is stationed in it or below it and strains to look at what is above and beyond. On the other hand, if the consciousness is stationed above the mind, that is to say, if it has direct access or contact with the truth, the spiritual reality, in that case, mind need not act as a veil, it too can be made transparent, and sufflused with the higher light, it too can translate faithfully, present and embody the reality beyond somewhat as it actually is, in its native rhythm and figure and not diffracted and diffused through a hazy atmosphere.
        European thought, European philosophy particularly, moves under the aegis of the Mind. It takes its stand within the Mind and from there tries to reach out to truths and realities; and therefore, however far it goes, its highest flights of perception, its most intimate contacts with spirit-truths are 'sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought'. The Indian standpoint, on the contrary, is first to contact the truth by a direct realisation – through meditation, concentration, an uplifting and a deepening of the consciousness, through Yoga, spiritual discipline, and then endeavour to express the truth thus realised, directly intuited or revealed, through mental terms, to make it familiar and communicable to the normal intelligence. Mind, so subordinated and keyed to a new rhythm, becomes, as far as it is possible for it, a channel, a vehicle and not a veil. All the main systems of Indian philosophy have this characteristic as their background. Each stands on a definite experience, a spiritual realisation, a direct contact with an aspect of truth and in and -through that seeks to give a world-view, building "up an intellectual system, marshalling rational conclusions that are natural to it or derive inevitably from it. In the Upanishads, which preceded the Darshanas, the spiritual realisations were not yet mentally systematised or logically buttressed: truths were delivered there as self-evident statements, as certitudes luminous in their own authenticity. We accept them without question and take them into our consciousness as forming its fundamental norms, structuring its most intimate inscape. This is darśana, seeing, as philosophy is named in India. One sees the truth or reality and describes it as it is seen, its limbs and gestures, its constituents and functions. Philosophy here is fundamentally a recording of one's vision and a translation or presentation of it in mental terms.
        http://www.sriaurobindoashram.com/Content.aspx?ContentURL=_StaticContent/Sriaurobindoashram/-09%20E-Library/-03%20Disciples/Nolini%20Kanta%20Gupta/Volume-1/-61_Darshana%20and%20Philosophy.html
        Gulati
        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Dick." wrote:

        > So the evolution of conscious awareness has no value? Well you must be
        > the expert on that as well. Perhaps you would care to tell us what such
        > experiences reveal and what effects they have. Perhaps you could also
        > name a few people who were mystics. How many mystical experiences have
        > you had and how long have you been having them? Hey, tell me, was Abdus
        > Salam a mystic or not? Did he fleece people for money by spewing a load
        > of junk and getting rich on the proceeds? Do you know what you are
        > talking about? What effect did they have on you? Tell us about it.
        >
        > As for mining for minerals on asteroids and other bodies in space in
        > time to come then it would only cost a lot of money to societies that
        > used money as a means of exchange for labour. But for those who did not
        > then it would not cost anything at all; other than work and effort.
        >
        > So you can appreciate that Wilde made that comment just for effect? And
        > that makes it right does it? I can appreciate that he did not. I can
        > appreciate that he meant it. When you talk and write then what effect
        > are you aiming to achieve? And why?
        >
        > rwr
        >
        > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
        > >
        > > Probably because myticism has never revealed it has anything of value,
        > and
        > > this stuff such as "altered states of consciousness" has not been
        > shown to
        > > be real. In the information age, people just get tired of hearing the
        > same
        > > old, same old. Like Oral Roberts saying that god would "call him
        > home"
        > > unless he got another $8 million in donations. Or that Guru in Oregon
        > with
        > > his 93 Rolls-Royces. It's no wonder there is some hostility.
        > >
        > > eduard
        > >
        > > -----Original Message-----
        > > From: Dick.
        > > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2013 12:07 PM
        > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        > > Subject: [existlist] The Safeguard of Ignorance

        > > The Safeguard of Ignorance
        > >
        > > [ Why is there still so much hostility to even the mention of
        > mysticism
        > > and altered states of conscious, and the effects of becoming aware of
        > > more as a result of it? ]
        > >
        > > The safeguard of ignorance and its vested interests on the one hand
        > and
        > > fear of the unknown on the other. They make perfect bedfellows; like
        > a
        > > shell around a nut. The preceding email pays testimony to this.
        > >
        > > rwr
      • eduardathome
        I did not say that the evolution of conscious awareness has no value. I said that mysticism is of no value. Although I would more likely say that it is the
        Message 3 of 8 , Jan 24, 2013
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          I did not say that the evolution of conscious awareness has no value. I
          said that mysticism is of no value. Although I would more likely say that
          it is the brain which has been subject to evolution, our ability to be aware
          of stuff could be also be said to be evolved.

          I would use the definition of mysticism as provided by Wikipedia ...

          "Mysticism is the pursuit of communion with, identity with, or conscious
          awareness of an ultimate reality, divinity, spiritual truth, or God through
          direct experience, intuition, instinct or insight. Mysticism usually centers
          on practices intended to nurture those experiences. Mysticism may be
          dualistic, maintaining a distinction between the self and the divine, or may
          be non-dualistic."

          I can accept that certain people pursuing such as spiritual truth may come
          up with expressions that may be of help to others in earlier periods of
          human history, in that it may provide some mental comfort, but I don't see
          this as being of value today. Especially when there is no god and things
          divine have not been shown to be real.

          The value of a mystic is the value of what he/she produces for others. So
          one could then ask what specifically related to this pursuit has been of
          worth, as compared to the statements which could come from a non-mystic.

          Was Jesus a mystic?? It's hard to tell, because we don't have an insight
          into his own mind. But he did express the idea of ... love one another as
          yourself. Is this a statement of a mystic?? Seems to me that you don't
          need to be a mystic to come up with that ethic. It is in the realm of the
          obvious.

          In any case, what is your point regarding Abdus Salam?? I have not known of
          him other than what I have now read about him on the internet. He is a
          physicist, or perhaps you are referring to some other Abdus Salam.

          What is most interesting in your post is that you haven't provided an
          example of something provided by a mystic that one might take as being of
          value.

          eduard



          -----Original Message-----
          From: Dick.
          Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2013 11:07 PM
          To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [existlist] Re: The Safeguard of Ignorance


          So the evolution of conscious awareness has no value? Well you must be
          the expert on that as well. Perhaps you would care to tell us what such
          experiences reveal and what effects they have. Perhaps you could also
          name a few people who were mystics. How many mystical experiences have
          you had and how long have you been having them? Hey, tell me, was Abdus
          Salam a mystic or not? Did he fleece people for money by spewing a load
          of junk and getting rich on the proceeds? Do you know what you are
          talking about? What effect did they have on you? Tell us about it.

          As for mining for minerals on asteroids and other bodies in space in
          time to come then it would only cost a lot of money to societies that
          used money as a means of exchange for labour. But for those who did not
          then it would not cost anything at all; other than work and effort.

          So you can appreciate that Wilde made that comment just for effect? And
          that makes it right does it? I can appreciate that he did not. I can
          appreciate that he meant it. When you talk and write then what effect
          are you aiming to achieve? And why?

          rwr

          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
          >
          > Probably because myticism has never revealed it has anything of value,
          and
          > this stuff such as "altered states of consciousness" has not been
          shown to
          > be real. In the information age, people just get tired of hearing the
          same
          > old, same old. Like Oral Roberts saying that god would "call him
          home"
          > unless he got another $8 million in donations. Or that Guru in Oregon
          with
          > his 93 Rolls-Royces. It's no wonder there is some hostility.
          >
          > eduard
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Dick.
          > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2013 12:07 PM
          > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [existlist] The Safeguard of Ignorance
          >
          >
          > The Safeguard of Ignorance
          >
          > [ Why is there still so much hostility to even the mention of
          mysticism
          > and altered states of conscious, and the effects of becoming aware of
          > more as a result of it? ]
          >
          > The safeguard of ignorance and its vested interests on the one hand
          and
          > fear of the unknown on the other. They make perfect bedfellows; like
          a
          > shell around a nut. The preceding email pays testimony to this.
          >
          > rwr
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining
          nothing!
          >
          > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          ------------------------------------

          Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining nothing!

          Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
        • Dick.
          So you get your understanding of what mystical altered states of conscious is from wackypeadia :- ))) That says it all. Yes I did mean that Abdus Salam and
          Message 4 of 8 , Jan 24, 2013
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            So you get your understanding of what mystical altered states of
            conscious is from wackypeadia :- ))) That says it all. Yes I did mean
            that Abdus Salam and he was a mystic. It was he who first asked me to
            write a book about it. And hearing it was useful to him. What the frig
            has this jesus geezer got to do with mystical experience???? You
            don't obviously know a thing about it. So best keep your hush on
            that topic. It is nothing to do with religions or beliefs. Did you
            know that religions pinch stuff and then mess with it? No, I guess you
            did not. So, what have you left the world which is useful then? And are
            you the judge of what is useful to the world?

            rwr


            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
            >
            > I did not say that the evolution of conscious awareness has no value.
            I
            > said that mysticism is of no value. Although I would more likely say
            that
            > it is the brain which has been subject to evolution, our ability to be
            aware
            > of stuff could be also be said to be evolved.
            >
            > I would use the definition of mysticism as provided by Wikipedia ...
            >
            > "Mysticism is the pursuit of communion with, identity with, or
            conscious
            > awareness of an ultimate reality, divinity, spiritual truth, or God
            through
            > direct experience, intuition, instinct or insight. Mysticism usually
            centers
            > on practices intended to nurture those experiences. Mysticism may be
            > dualistic, maintaining a distinction between the self and the divine,
            or may
            > be non-dualistic."
            >
            > I can accept that certain people pursuing such as spiritual truth may
            come
            > up with expressions that may be of help to others in earlier periods
            of
            > human history, in that it may provide some mental comfort, but I don't
            see
            > this as being of value today. Especially when there is no god and
            things
            > divine have not been shown to be real.
            >
            > The value of a mystic is the value of what he/she produces for others.
            So
            > one could then ask what specifically related to this pursuit has been
            of
            > worth, as compared to the statements which could come from a
            non-mystic.
            >
            > Was Jesus a mystic?? It's hard to tell, because we don't have an
            insight
            > into his own mind. But he did express the idea of ... love one
            another as
            > yourself. Is this a statement of a mystic?? Seems to me that you
            don't
            > need to be a mystic to come up with that ethic. It is in the realm of
            the
            > obvious.
            >
            > In any case, what is your point regarding Abdus Salam?? I have not
            known of
            > him other than what I have now read about him on the internet. He is
            a
            > physicist, or perhaps you are referring to some other Abdus Salam.
            >
            > What is most interesting in your post is that you haven't provided an
            > example of something provided by a mystic that one might take as being
            of
            > value.
            >
            > eduard
            >
            >
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Dick.
            > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2013 11:07 PM
            > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [existlist] Re: The Safeguard of Ignorance
            >
            >
            > So the evolution of conscious awareness has no value? Well you must
            be
            > the expert on that as well. Perhaps you would care to tell us what
            such
            > experiences reveal and what effects they have. Perhaps you could also
            > name a few people who were mystics. How many mystical experiences
            have
            > you had and how long have you been having them? Hey, tell me, was
            Abdus
            > Salam a mystic or not? Did he fleece people for money by spewing a
            load
            > of junk and getting rich on the proceeds? Do you know what you are
            > talking about? What effect did they have on you? Tell us about it.
            >
            > As for mining for minerals on asteroids and other bodies in space in
            > time to come then it would only cost a lot of money to societies that
            > used money as a means of exchange for labour. But for those who did
            not
            > then it would not cost anything at all; other than work and effort.
            >
            > So you can appreciate that Wilde made that comment just for effect?
            And
            > that makes it right does it? I can appreciate that he did not. I can
            > appreciate that he meant it. When you talk and write then what effect
            > are you aiming to achieve? And why?
            >
            > rwr
            >
            > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
            > >
            > > Probably because myticism has never revealed it has anything of
            value,
            > and
            > > this stuff such as "altered states of consciousness" has not been
            > shown to
            > > be real. In the information age, people just get tired of hearing
            the
            > same
            > > old, same old. Like Oral Roberts saying that god would "call him
            > home"
            > > unless he got another $8 million in donations. Or that Guru in
            Oregon
            > with
            > > his 93 Rolls-Royces. It's no wonder there is some hostility.
            > >
            > > eduard
            > >
            > > -----Original Message-----
            > > From: Dick.
            > > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2013 12:07 PM
            > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            > > Subject: [existlist] The Safeguard of Ignorance
            > >
            > >
            > > The Safeguard of Ignorance
            > >
            > > [ Why is there still so much hostility to even the mention of
            > mysticism
            > > and altered states of conscious, and the effects of becoming aware
            of
            > > more as a result of it? ]
            > >
            > > The safeguard of ignorance and its vested interests on the one hand
            > and
            > > fear of the unknown on the other. They make perfect bedfellows;
            like
            > a
            > > shell around a nut. The preceding email pays testimony to this.
            > >
            > > rwr
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------------------------------
            > >
            > > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining
            > nothing!
            > >
            > > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining
            nothing!
            >
            > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
            >



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • eduardathome
            It is of interest to note that Indians somehow have a different brain than Europeans. Taking the tone of your post, I would say that Indians through their Yoga
            Message 5 of 8 , Jan 24, 2013
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              It is of interest to note that Indians somehow have a different brain than
              Europeans.

              Taking the tone of your post, I would say that Indians through their Yoga or
              whatever are able to invent what they think is the truth. Whereas the
              European can see the truth directly without all this preparation, because
              "truth" is the obvious.

              If I am wrong, then please identify a truth which can be seen by an Indian
              and not a European.

              eduard

              -----Original Message-----
              From: devindersingh
              Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2013 1:46 AM
              To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [existlist] Re: The Safeguard of Ignorance

              THERE is a mental approach to spiritual truths and there is a direct and
              immediate approach or rather contact. The mind sees as though through a
              mist, a darkling glass, a more or less opaque veil, and the thing envisaged
              presents a blurred and not unoften a deformed appearance. The mind has its
              own pre-dispositions – its own categories and terms, its own forms and
              figures-which it has to use when it seeks to express that which is beyond
              it. Naturally the object, the truth as it is, it cannot apprehend or
              represent; it gives as it were the reverse side of an embroidery work. It
              goes round about the thing, has to take recourse to all kinds of contortions
              and gymnastics and grimaces to ape the natural gesture of the truth. But
              mind acts in this way, as a veil rather than' a medium, when one is
              stationed in it or below it and strains to look at what is above and beyond.
              On the other hand, if the consciousness is stationed above the mind, that is
              to say, if it has direct access or contact with the truth, the spiritual
              reality, in that case, mind need not act as a veil, it too can be made
              transparent, and sufflused with the higher light, it too can translate
              faithfully, present and embody the reality beyond somewhat as it actually
              is, in its native rhythm and figure and not diffracted and diffused through
              a hazy atmosphere.

              European thought, European philosophy particularly, moves under the aegis of
              the Mind. It takes its stand within the Mind and from there tries to reach
              out to truths and realities; and therefore, however far it goes, its highest
              flights of perception, its most intimate contacts with spirit-truths are
              'sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought'. The Indian standpoint, on the
              contrary, is first to contact the truth by a direct realisation – through
              meditation, concentration, an uplifting and a deepening of the
              consciousness, through Yoga, spiritual discipline, and then endeavour to
              express the truth thus realised, directly intuited or revealed, through
              mental terms, to make it familiar and communicable to the normal
              intelligence. Mind, so subordinated and keyed to a new rhythm, becomes, as
              far as it is possible for it, a channel, a vehicle and not a veil. All the
              main systems of Indian philosophy have this characteristic as their
              background. Each stands on a definite experience, a spiritual realisation, a
              direct contact with an aspect of truth and in and -through that seeks to
              give a world-view, building "up an intellectual system, marshalling rational
              conclusions that are natural to it or derive inevitably from it. In the
              Upanishads, which preceded the Darshanas, the spiritual realisations were
              not yet mentally systematised or logically buttressed: truths were delivered
              there as self-evident statements, as certitudes luminous in their own
              authenticity. We accept them without question and take them into our
              consciousness as forming its fundamental norms, structuring its most
              intimate inscape. This is darśana, seeing, as philosophy is named in
              India. One sees the truth or reality and describes it as it is seen, its
              limbs and gestures, its constituents and functions. Philosophy here is
              fundamentally a recording of one's vision and a translation or presentation
              of it in mental terms.
              http://www.sriaurobindoashram.com/Content.aspx?ContentURL=_StaticContent/Sriaurobindoashram/-09%20E-Library/-03%20Disciples/Nolini%20Kanta%20Gupta/Volume-1/-61_Darshana%20and%20Philosophy.html
              Gulati
              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Dick." wrote:

              > So the evolution of conscious awareness has no value? Well you must be
              > the expert on that as well. Perhaps you would care to tell us what such
              > experiences reveal and what effects they have. Perhaps you could also
              > name a few people who were mystics. How many mystical experiences have
              > you had and how long have you been having them? Hey, tell me, was Abdus
              > Salam a mystic or not? Did he fleece people for money by spewing a load
              > of junk and getting rich on the proceeds? Do you know what you are
              > talking about? What effect did they have on you? Tell us about it.
              >
              > As for mining for minerals on asteroids and other bodies in space in
              > time to come then it would only cost a lot of money to societies that
              > used money as a means of exchange for labour. But for those who did not
              > then it would not cost anything at all; other than work and effort.
              >
              > So you can appreciate that Wilde made that comment just for effect? And
              > that makes it right does it? I can appreciate that he did not. I can
              > appreciate that he meant it. When you talk and write then what effect
              > are you aiming to achieve? And why?
              >
              > rwr
              >
              > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
              > >
              > > Probably because myticism has never revealed it has anything of value,
              > and
              > > this stuff such as "altered states of consciousness" has not been
              > shown to
              > > be real. In the information age, people just get tired of hearing the
              > same
              > > old, same old. Like Oral Roberts saying that god would "call him
              > home"
              > > unless he got another $8 million in donations. Or that Guru in Oregon
              > with
              > > his 93 Rolls-Royces. It's no wonder there is some hostility.
              > >
              > > eduard
              > >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: Dick.
              > > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2013 12:07 PM
              > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              > > Subject: [existlist] The Safeguard of Ignorance

              > > The Safeguard of Ignorance
              > >
              > > [ Why is there still so much hostility to even the mention of
              > mysticism
              > > and altered states of conscious, and the effects of becoming aware of
              > > more as a result of it? ]
              > >
              > > The safeguard of ignorance and its vested interests on the one hand
              > and
              > > fear of the unknown on the other. They make perfect bedfellows; like
              > a
              > > shell around a nut. The preceding email pays testimony to this.
              > >
              > > rwr



              ------------------------------------

              Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining nothing!

              Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
            • eduardathome
              You still have not given an example of some product resulting from mysticism which is of value. I posed Jesus to give an example of one who might be considered
              Message 6 of 8 , Jan 24, 2013
              • 0 Attachment
                You still have not given an example of some product resulting from mysticism
                which is of value.

                I posed Jesus to give an example of one who might be considered a mystic. I
                should think that the term "mystic" might apply when Jesus was a Rabbi who
                was said to have communion with God. Yet what he came up with was mundane
                and obvious. Albeit I would accept some people have to be told the mundane
                in order to realise it. But the mundane does not require a mystic.

                So over to you. If Abdus Salam is your example of a mystic, what did he
                produce as a mystic that was of value??

                eduard

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Dick.
                Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2013 9:35 AM
                To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [existlist] Re: The Safeguard of Ignorance


                So you get your understanding of what mystical altered states of
                conscious is from wackypeadia :- ))) That says it all. Yes I did mean
                that Abdus Salam and he was a mystic. It was he who first asked me to
                write a book about it. And hearing it was useful to him. What the frig
                has this jesus geezer got to do with mystical experience???? You
                don't obviously know a thing about it. So best keep your hush on
                that topic. It is nothing to do with religions or beliefs. Did you
                know that religions pinch stuff and then mess with it? No, I guess you
                did not. So, what have you left the world which is useful then? And are
                you the judge of what is useful to the world?

                rwr


                --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
                >
                > I did not say that the evolution of conscious awareness has no value.
                I
                > said that mysticism is of no value. Although I would more likely say
                that
                > it is the brain which has been subject to evolution, our ability to be
                aware
                > of stuff could be also be said to be evolved.
                >
                > I would use the definition of mysticism as provided by Wikipedia ...
                >
                > "Mysticism is the pursuit of communion with, identity with, or
                conscious
                > awareness of an ultimate reality, divinity, spiritual truth, or God
                through
                > direct experience, intuition, instinct or insight. Mysticism usually
                centers
                > on practices intended to nurture those experiences. Mysticism may be
                > dualistic, maintaining a distinction between the self and the divine,
                or may
                > be non-dualistic."
                >
                > I can accept that certain people pursuing such as spiritual truth may
                come
                > up with expressions that may be of help to others in earlier periods
                of
                > human history, in that it may provide some mental comfort, but I don't
                see
                > this as being of value today. Especially when there is no god and
                things
                > divine have not been shown to be real.
                >
                > The value of a mystic is the value of what he/she produces for others.
                So
                > one could then ask what specifically related to this pursuit has been
                of
                > worth, as compared to the statements which could come from a
                non-mystic.
                >
                > Was Jesus a mystic?? It's hard to tell, because we don't have an
                insight
                > into his own mind. But he did express the idea of ... love one
                another as
                > yourself. Is this a statement of a mystic?? Seems to me that you
                don't
                > need to be a mystic to come up with that ethic. It is in the realm of
                the
                > obvious.
                >
                > In any case, what is your point regarding Abdus Salam?? I have not
                known of
                > him other than what I have now read about him on the internet. He is
                a
                > physicist, or perhaps you are referring to some other Abdus Salam.
                >
                > What is most interesting in your post is that you haven't provided an
                > example of something provided by a mystic that one might take as being
                of
                > value.
                >
                > eduard
                >
                >
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Dick.
                > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2013 11:07 PM
                > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: [existlist] Re: The Safeguard of Ignorance
                >
                >
                > So the evolution of conscious awareness has no value? Well you must
                be
                > the expert on that as well. Perhaps you would care to tell us what
                such
                > experiences reveal and what effects they have. Perhaps you could also
                > name a few people who were mystics. How many mystical experiences
                have
                > you had and how long have you been having them? Hey, tell me, was
                Abdus
                > Salam a mystic or not? Did he fleece people for money by spewing a
                load
                > of junk and getting rich on the proceeds? Do you know what you are
                > talking about? What effect did they have on you? Tell us about it.
                >
                > As for mining for minerals on asteroids and other bodies in space in
                > time to come then it would only cost a lot of money to societies that
                > used money as a means of exchange for labour. But for those who did
                not
                > then it would not cost anything at all; other than work and effort.
                >
                > So you can appreciate that Wilde made that comment just for effect?
                And
                > that makes it right does it? I can appreciate that he did not. I can
                > appreciate that he meant it. When you talk and write then what effect
                > are you aiming to achieve? And why?
                >
                > rwr
                >
                > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
                > >
                > > Probably because myticism has never revealed it has anything of
                value,
                > and
                > > this stuff such as "altered states of consciousness" has not been
                > shown to
                > > be real. In the information age, people just get tired of hearing
                the
                > same
                > > old, same old. Like Oral Roberts saying that god would "call him
                > home"
                > > unless he got another $8 million in donations. Or that Guru in
                Oregon
                > with
                > > his 93 Rolls-Royces. It's no wonder there is some hostility.
                > >
                > > eduard
                > >
                > > -----Original Message-----
                > > From: Dick.
                > > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2013 12:07 PM
                > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                > > Subject: [existlist] The Safeguard of Ignorance
                > >
                > >
                > > The Safeguard of Ignorance
                > >
                > > [ Why is there still so much hostility to even the mention of
                > mysticism
                > > and altered states of conscious, and the effects of becoming aware
                of
                > > more as a result of it? ]
                > >
                > > The safeguard of ignorance and its vested interests on the one hand
                > and
                > > fear of the unknown on the other. They make perfect bedfellows;
                like
                > a
                > > shell around a nut. The preceding email pays testimony to this.
                > >
                > > rwr
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > ------------------------------------
                > >
                > > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining
                > nothing!
                > >
                > > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining
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                >
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