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Re: [existlist] The Safeguard of Ignorance

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  • eduardathome
    Probably because myticism has never revealed it has anything of value, and this stuff such as altered states of consciousness has not been shown to be real.
    Message 1 of 8 , Jan 23, 2013
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      Probably because myticism has never revealed it has anything of value, and
      this stuff such as "altered states of consciousness" has not been shown to
      be real. In the information age, people just get tired of hearing the same
      old, same old. Like Oral Roberts saying that god would "call him home"
      unless he got another $8 million in donations. Or that Guru in Oregon with
      his 93 Rolls-Royces. It's no wonder there is some hostility.

      eduard

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Dick.
      Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2013 12:07 PM
      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [existlist] The Safeguard of Ignorance


      The Safeguard of Ignorance

      [ Why is there still so much hostility to even the mention of mysticism
      and altered states of conscious, and the effects of becoming aware of
      more as a result of it? ]

      The safeguard of ignorance and its vested interests on the one hand and
      fear of the unknown on the other. They make perfect bedfellows; like a
      shell around a nut. The preceding email pays testimony to this.

      rwr





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



      ------------------------------------

      Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining nothing!

      Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
    • Dick.
      So the evolution of conscious awareness has no value? Well you must be the expert on that as well. Perhaps you would care to tell us what such experiences
      Message 2 of 8 , Jan 23, 2013
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        So the evolution of conscious awareness has no value? Well you must be
        the expert on that as well. Perhaps you would care to tell us what such
        experiences reveal and what effects they have. Perhaps you could also
        name a few people who were mystics. How many mystical experiences have
        you had and how long have you been having them? Hey, tell me, was Abdus
        Salam a mystic or not? Did he fleece people for money by spewing a load
        of junk and getting rich on the proceeds? Do you know what you are
        talking about? What effect did they have on you? Tell us about it.

        As for mining for minerals on asteroids and other bodies in space in
        time to come then it would only cost a lot of money to societies that
        used money as a means of exchange for labour. But for those who did not
        then it would not cost anything at all; other than work and effort.

        So you can appreciate that Wilde made that comment just for effect? And
        that makes it right does it? I can appreciate that he did not. I can
        appreciate that he meant it. When you talk and write then what effect
        are you aiming to achieve? And why?

        rwr

        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
        >
        > Probably because myticism has never revealed it has anything of value,
        and
        > this stuff such as "altered states of consciousness" has not been
        shown to
        > be real. In the information age, people just get tired of hearing the
        same
        > old, same old. Like Oral Roberts saying that god would "call him
        home"
        > unless he got another $8 million in donations. Or that Guru in Oregon
        with
        > his 93 Rolls-Royces. It's no wonder there is some hostility.
        >
        > eduard
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Dick.
        > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2013 12:07 PM
        > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [existlist] The Safeguard of Ignorance
        >
        >
        > The Safeguard of Ignorance
        >
        > [ Why is there still so much hostility to even the mention of
        mysticism
        > and altered states of conscious, and the effects of becoming aware of
        > more as a result of it? ]
        >
        > The safeguard of ignorance and its vested interests on the one hand
        and
        > fear of the unknown on the other. They make perfect bedfellows; like
        a
        > shell around a nut. The preceding email pays testimony to this.
        >
        > rwr
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining
        nothing!
        >
        > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • devindersingh
        THERE is a mental approach to spiritual truths and there is a direct and immediate approach or rather contact. The mind sees as though through a mist, a
        Message 3 of 8 , Jan 23, 2013
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          THERE is a mental approach to spiritual truths and there is a direct and immediate approach or rather contact. The mind sees as though through a mist, a darkling glass, a more or less opaque veil, and the thing envisaged presents a blurred and not unoften a deformed appearance. The mind has its own pre-dispositions – its own categories and terms, its own forms and figures-which it has to use when it seeks to express that which is beyond it. Naturally the object, the truth as it is, it cannot apprehend or represent; it gives as it were the reverse side of an embroidery work. It goes round about the thing, has to take recourse to all kinds of contortions and gymnastics and grimaces to ape the natural gesture of the truth. But mind acts in this way, as a veil rather than' a medium, when one is stationed in it or below it and strains to look at what is above and beyond. On the other hand, if the consciousness is stationed above the mind, that is to say, if it has direct access or contact with the truth, the spiritual reality, in that case, mind need not act as a veil, it too can be made transparent, and sufflused with the higher light, it too can translate faithfully, present and embody the reality beyond somewhat as it actually is, in its native rhythm and figure and not diffracted and diffused through a hazy atmosphere.
          European thought, European philosophy particularly, moves under the aegis of the Mind. It takes its stand within the Mind and from there tries to reach out to truths and realities; and therefore, however far it goes, its highest flights of perception, its most intimate contacts with spirit-truths are 'sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought'. The Indian standpoint, on the contrary, is first to contact the truth by a direct realisation – through meditation, concentration, an uplifting and a deepening of the consciousness, through Yoga, spiritual discipline, and then endeavour to express the truth thus realised, directly intuited or revealed, through mental terms, to make it familiar and communicable to the normal intelligence. Mind, so subordinated and keyed to a new rhythm, becomes, as far as it is possible for it, a channel, a vehicle and not a veil. All the main systems of Indian philosophy have this characteristic as their background. Each stands on a definite experience, a spiritual realisation, a direct contact with an aspect of truth and in and -through that seeks to give a world-view, building "up an intellectual system, marshalling rational conclusions that are natural to it or derive inevitably from it. In the Upanishads, which preceded the Darshanas, the spiritual realisations were not yet mentally systematised or logically buttressed: truths were delivered there as self-evident statements, as certitudes luminous in their own authenticity. We accept them without question and take them into our consciousness as forming its fundamental norms, structuring its most intimate inscape. This is darśana, seeing, as philosophy is named in India. One sees the truth or reality and describes it as it is seen, its limbs and gestures, its constituents and functions. Philosophy here is fundamentally a recording of one's vision and a translation or presentation of it in mental terms.
          http://www.sriaurobindoashram.com/Content.aspx?ContentURL=_StaticContent/Sriaurobindoashram/-09%20E-Library/-03%20Disciples/Nolini%20Kanta%20Gupta/Volume-1/-61_Darshana%20and%20Philosophy.html
          Gulati
          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Dick." wrote:

          > So the evolution of conscious awareness has no value? Well you must be
          > the expert on that as well. Perhaps you would care to tell us what such
          > experiences reveal and what effects they have. Perhaps you could also
          > name a few people who were mystics. How many mystical experiences have
          > you had and how long have you been having them? Hey, tell me, was Abdus
          > Salam a mystic or not? Did he fleece people for money by spewing a load
          > of junk and getting rich on the proceeds? Do you know what you are
          > talking about? What effect did they have on you? Tell us about it.
          >
          > As for mining for minerals on asteroids and other bodies in space in
          > time to come then it would only cost a lot of money to societies that
          > used money as a means of exchange for labour. But for those who did not
          > then it would not cost anything at all; other than work and effort.
          >
          > So you can appreciate that Wilde made that comment just for effect? And
          > that makes it right does it? I can appreciate that he did not. I can
          > appreciate that he meant it. When you talk and write then what effect
          > are you aiming to achieve? And why?
          >
          > rwr
          >
          > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
          > >
          > > Probably because myticism has never revealed it has anything of value,
          > and
          > > this stuff such as "altered states of consciousness" has not been
          > shown to
          > > be real. In the information age, people just get tired of hearing the
          > same
          > > old, same old. Like Oral Roberts saying that god would "call him
          > home"
          > > unless he got another $8 million in donations. Or that Guru in Oregon
          > with
          > > his 93 Rolls-Royces. It's no wonder there is some hostility.
          > >
          > > eduard
          > >
          > > -----Original Message-----
          > > From: Dick.
          > > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2013 12:07 PM
          > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          > > Subject: [existlist] The Safeguard of Ignorance

          > > The Safeguard of Ignorance
          > >
          > > [ Why is there still so much hostility to even the mention of
          > mysticism
          > > and altered states of conscious, and the effects of becoming aware of
          > > more as a result of it? ]
          > >
          > > The safeguard of ignorance and its vested interests on the one hand
          > and
          > > fear of the unknown on the other. They make perfect bedfellows; like
          > a
          > > shell around a nut. The preceding email pays testimony to this.
          > >
          > > rwr
        • eduardathome
          I did not say that the evolution of conscious awareness has no value. I said that mysticism is of no value. Although I would more likely say that it is the
          Message 4 of 8 , Jan 24, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
            I did not say that the evolution of conscious awareness has no value. I
            said that mysticism is of no value. Although I would more likely say that
            it is the brain which has been subject to evolution, our ability to be aware
            of stuff could be also be said to be evolved.

            I would use the definition of mysticism as provided by Wikipedia ...

            "Mysticism is the pursuit of communion with, identity with, or conscious
            awareness of an ultimate reality, divinity, spiritual truth, or God through
            direct experience, intuition, instinct or insight. Mysticism usually centers
            on practices intended to nurture those experiences. Mysticism may be
            dualistic, maintaining a distinction between the self and the divine, or may
            be non-dualistic."

            I can accept that certain people pursuing such as spiritual truth may come
            up with expressions that may be of help to others in earlier periods of
            human history, in that it may provide some mental comfort, but I don't see
            this as being of value today. Especially when there is no god and things
            divine have not been shown to be real.

            The value of a mystic is the value of what he/she produces for others. So
            one could then ask what specifically related to this pursuit has been of
            worth, as compared to the statements which could come from a non-mystic.

            Was Jesus a mystic?? It's hard to tell, because we don't have an insight
            into his own mind. But he did express the idea of ... love one another as
            yourself. Is this a statement of a mystic?? Seems to me that you don't
            need to be a mystic to come up with that ethic. It is in the realm of the
            obvious.

            In any case, what is your point regarding Abdus Salam?? I have not known of
            him other than what I have now read about him on the internet. He is a
            physicist, or perhaps you are referring to some other Abdus Salam.

            What is most interesting in your post is that you haven't provided an
            example of something provided by a mystic that one might take as being of
            value.

            eduard



            -----Original Message-----
            From: Dick.
            Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2013 11:07 PM
            To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [existlist] Re: The Safeguard of Ignorance


            So the evolution of conscious awareness has no value? Well you must be
            the expert on that as well. Perhaps you would care to tell us what such
            experiences reveal and what effects they have. Perhaps you could also
            name a few people who were mystics. How many mystical experiences have
            you had and how long have you been having them? Hey, tell me, was Abdus
            Salam a mystic or not? Did he fleece people for money by spewing a load
            of junk and getting rich on the proceeds? Do you know what you are
            talking about? What effect did they have on you? Tell us about it.

            As for mining for minerals on asteroids and other bodies in space in
            time to come then it would only cost a lot of money to societies that
            used money as a means of exchange for labour. But for those who did not
            then it would not cost anything at all; other than work and effort.

            So you can appreciate that Wilde made that comment just for effect? And
            that makes it right does it? I can appreciate that he did not. I can
            appreciate that he meant it. When you talk and write then what effect
            are you aiming to achieve? And why?

            rwr

            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
            >
            > Probably because myticism has never revealed it has anything of value,
            and
            > this stuff such as "altered states of consciousness" has not been
            shown to
            > be real. In the information age, people just get tired of hearing the
            same
            > old, same old. Like Oral Roberts saying that god would "call him
            home"
            > unless he got another $8 million in donations. Or that Guru in Oregon
            with
            > his 93 Rolls-Royces. It's no wonder there is some hostility.
            >
            > eduard
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Dick.
            > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2013 12:07 PM
            > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [existlist] The Safeguard of Ignorance
            >
            >
            > The Safeguard of Ignorance
            >
            > [ Why is there still so much hostility to even the mention of
            mysticism
            > and altered states of conscious, and the effects of becoming aware of
            > more as a result of it? ]
            >
            > The safeguard of ignorance and its vested interests on the one hand
            and
            > fear of the unknown on the other. They make perfect bedfellows; like
            a
            > shell around a nut. The preceding email pays testimony to this.
            >
            > rwr
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining
            nothing!
            >
            > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
            >



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



            ------------------------------------

            Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining nothing!

            Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
          • Dick.
            So you get your understanding of what mystical altered states of conscious is from wackypeadia :- ))) That says it all. Yes I did mean that Abdus Salam and
            Message 5 of 8 , Jan 24, 2013
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              So you get your understanding of what mystical altered states of
              conscious is from wackypeadia :- ))) That says it all. Yes I did mean
              that Abdus Salam and he was a mystic. It was he who first asked me to
              write a book about it. And hearing it was useful to him. What the frig
              has this jesus geezer got to do with mystical experience???? You
              don't obviously know a thing about it. So best keep your hush on
              that topic. It is nothing to do with religions or beliefs. Did you
              know that religions pinch stuff and then mess with it? No, I guess you
              did not. So, what have you left the world which is useful then? And are
              you the judge of what is useful to the world?

              rwr


              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
              >
              > I did not say that the evolution of conscious awareness has no value.
              I
              > said that mysticism is of no value. Although I would more likely say
              that
              > it is the brain which has been subject to evolution, our ability to be
              aware
              > of stuff could be also be said to be evolved.
              >
              > I would use the definition of mysticism as provided by Wikipedia ...
              >
              > "Mysticism is the pursuit of communion with, identity with, or
              conscious
              > awareness of an ultimate reality, divinity, spiritual truth, or God
              through
              > direct experience, intuition, instinct or insight. Mysticism usually
              centers
              > on practices intended to nurture those experiences. Mysticism may be
              > dualistic, maintaining a distinction between the self and the divine,
              or may
              > be non-dualistic."
              >
              > I can accept that certain people pursuing such as spiritual truth may
              come
              > up with expressions that may be of help to others in earlier periods
              of
              > human history, in that it may provide some mental comfort, but I don't
              see
              > this as being of value today. Especially when there is no god and
              things
              > divine have not been shown to be real.
              >
              > The value of a mystic is the value of what he/she produces for others.
              So
              > one could then ask what specifically related to this pursuit has been
              of
              > worth, as compared to the statements which could come from a
              non-mystic.
              >
              > Was Jesus a mystic?? It's hard to tell, because we don't have an
              insight
              > into his own mind. But he did express the idea of ... love one
              another as
              > yourself. Is this a statement of a mystic?? Seems to me that you
              don't
              > need to be a mystic to come up with that ethic. It is in the realm of
              the
              > obvious.
              >
              > In any case, what is your point regarding Abdus Salam?? I have not
              known of
              > him other than what I have now read about him on the internet. He is
              a
              > physicist, or perhaps you are referring to some other Abdus Salam.
              >
              > What is most interesting in your post is that you haven't provided an
              > example of something provided by a mystic that one might take as being
              of
              > value.
              >
              > eduard
              >
              >
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Dick.
              > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2013 11:07 PM
              > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [existlist] Re: The Safeguard of Ignorance
              >
              >
              > So the evolution of conscious awareness has no value? Well you must
              be
              > the expert on that as well. Perhaps you would care to tell us what
              such
              > experiences reveal and what effects they have. Perhaps you could also
              > name a few people who were mystics. How many mystical experiences
              have
              > you had and how long have you been having them? Hey, tell me, was
              Abdus
              > Salam a mystic or not? Did he fleece people for money by spewing a
              load
              > of junk and getting rich on the proceeds? Do you know what you are
              > talking about? What effect did they have on you? Tell us about it.
              >
              > As for mining for minerals on asteroids and other bodies in space in
              > time to come then it would only cost a lot of money to societies that
              > used money as a means of exchange for labour. But for those who did
              not
              > then it would not cost anything at all; other than work and effort.
              >
              > So you can appreciate that Wilde made that comment just for effect?
              And
              > that makes it right does it? I can appreciate that he did not. I can
              > appreciate that he meant it. When you talk and write then what effect
              > are you aiming to achieve? And why?
              >
              > rwr
              >
              > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
              > >
              > > Probably because myticism has never revealed it has anything of
              value,
              > and
              > > this stuff such as "altered states of consciousness" has not been
              > shown to
              > > be real. In the information age, people just get tired of hearing
              the
              > same
              > > old, same old. Like Oral Roberts saying that god would "call him
              > home"
              > > unless he got another $8 million in donations. Or that Guru in
              Oregon
              > with
              > > his 93 Rolls-Royces. It's no wonder there is some hostility.
              > >
              > > eduard
              > >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: Dick.
              > > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2013 12:07 PM
              > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              > > Subject: [existlist] The Safeguard of Ignorance
              > >
              > >
              > > The Safeguard of Ignorance
              > >
              > > [ Why is there still so much hostility to even the mention of
              > mysticism
              > > and altered states of conscious, and the effects of becoming aware
              of
              > > more as a result of it? ]
              > >
              > > The safeguard of ignorance and its vested interests on the one hand
              > and
              > > fear of the unknown on the other. They make perfect bedfellows;
              like
              > a
              > > shell around a nut. The preceding email pays testimony to this.
              > >
              > > rwr
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------
              > >
              > > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining
              > nothing!
              > >
              > > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining
              nothing!
              >
              > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
              >



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • eduardathome
              It is of interest to note that Indians somehow have a different brain than Europeans. Taking the tone of your post, I would say that Indians through their Yoga
              Message 6 of 8 , Jan 24, 2013
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                It is of interest to note that Indians somehow have a different brain than
                Europeans.

                Taking the tone of your post, I would say that Indians through their Yoga or
                whatever are able to invent what they think is the truth. Whereas the
                European can see the truth directly without all this preparation, because
                "truth" is the obvious.

                If I am wrong, then please identify a truth which can be seen by an Indian
                and not a European.

                eduard

                -----Original Message-----
                From: devindersingh
                Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2013 1:46 AM
                To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [existlist] Re: The Safeguard of Ignorance

                THERE is a mental approach to spiritual truths and there is a direct and
                immediate approach or rather contact. The mind sees as though through a
                mist, a darkling glass, a more or less opaque veil, and the thing envisaged
                presents a blurred and not unoften a deformed appearance. The mind has its
                own pre-dispositions – its own categories and terms, its own forms and
                figures-which it has to use when it seeks to express that which is beyond
                it. Naturally the object, the truth as it is, it cannot apprehend or
                represent; it gives as it were the reverse side of an embroidery work. It
                goes round about the thing, has to take recourse to all kinds of contortions
                and gymnastics and grimaces to ape the natural gesture of the truth. But
                mind acts in this way, as a veil rather than' a medium, when one is
                stationed in it or below it and strains to look at what is above and beyond.
                On the other hand, if the consciousness is stationed above the mind, that is
                to say, if it has direct access or contact with the truth, the spiritual
                reality, in that case, mind need not act as a veil, it too can be made
                transparent, and sufflused with the higher light, it too can translate
                faithfully, present and embody the reality beyond somewhat as it actually
                is, in its native rhythm and figure and not diffracted and diffused through
                a hazy atmosphere.

                European thought, European philosophy particularly, moves under the aegis of
                the Mind. It takes its stand within the Mind and from there tries to reach
                out to truths and realities; and therefore, however far it goes, its highest
                flights of perception, its most intimate contacts with spirit-truths are
                'sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought'. The Indian standpoint, on the
                contrary, is first to contact the truth by a direct realisation – through
                meditation, concentration, an uplifting and a deepening of the
                consciousness, through Yoga, spiritual discipline, and then endeavour to
                express the truth thus realised, directly intuited or revealed, through
                mental terms, to make it familiar and communicable to the normal
                intelligence. Mind, so subordinated and keyed to a new rhythm, becomes, as
                far as it is possible for it, a channel, a vehicle and not a veil. All the
                main systems of Indian philosophy have this characteristic as their
                background. Each stands on a definite experience, a spiritual realisation, a
                direct contact with an aspect of truth and in and -through that seeks to
                give a world-view, building "up an intellectual system, marshalling rational
                conclusions that are natural to it or derive inevitably from it. In the
                Upanishads, which preceded the Darshanas, the spiritual realisations were
                not yet mentally systematised or logically buttressed: truths were delivered
                there as self-evident statements, as certitudes luminous in their own
                authenticity. We accept them without question and take them into our
                consciousness as forming its fundamental norms, structuring its most
                intimate inscape. This is darśana, seeing, as philosophy is named in
                India. One sees the truth or reality and describes it as it is seen, its
                limbs and gestures, its constituents and functions. Philosophy here is
                fundamentally a recording of one's vision and a translation or presentation
                of it in mental terms.
                http://www.sriaurobindoashram.com/Content.aspx?ContentURL=_StaticContent/Sriaurobindoashram/-09%20E-Library/-03%20Disciples/Nolini%20Kanta%20Gupta/Volume-1/-61_Darshana%20and%20Philosophy.html
                Gulati
                --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Dick." wrote:

                > So the evolution of conscious awareness has no value? Well you must be
                > the expert on that as well. Perhaps you would care to tell us what such
                > experiences reveal and what effects they have. Perhaps you could also
                > name a few people who were mystics. How many mystical experiences have
                > you had and how long have you been having them? Hey, tell me, was Abdus
                > Salam a mystic or not? Did he fleece people for money by spewing a load
                > of junk and getting rich on the proceeds? Do you know what you are
                > talking about? What effect did they have on you? Tell us about it.
                >
                > As for mining for minerals on asteroids and other bodies in space in
                > time to come then it would only cost a lot of money to societies that
                > used money as a means of exchange for labour. But for those who did not
                > then it would not cost anything at all; other than work and effort.
                >
                > So you can appreciate that Wilde made that comment just for effect? And
                > that makes it right does it? I can appreciate that he did not. I can
                > appreciate that he meant it. When you talk and write then what effect
                > are you aiming to achieve? And why?
                >
                > rwr
                >
                > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
                > >
                > > Probably because myticism has never revealed it has anything of value,
                > and
                > > this stuff such as "altered states of consciousness" has not been
                > shown to
                > > be real. In the information age, people just get tired of hearing the
                > same
                > > old, same old. Like Oral Roberts saying that god would "call him
                > home"
                > > unless he got another $8 million in donations. Or that Guru in Oregon
                > with
                > > his 93 Rolls-Royces. It's no wonder there is some hostility.
                > >
                > > eduard
                > >
                > > -----Original Message-----
                > > From: Dick.
                > > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2013 12:07 PM
                > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                > > Subject: [existlist] The Safeguard of Ignorance

                > > The Safeguard of Ignorance
                > >
                > > [ Why is there still so much hostility to even the mention of
                > mysticism
                > > and altered states of conscious, and the effects of becoming aware of
                > > more as a result of it? ]
                > >
                > > The safeguard of ignorance and its vested interests on the one hand
                > and
                > > fear of the unknown on the other. They make perfect bedfellows; like
                > a
                > > shell around a nut. The preceding email pays testimony to this.
                > >
                > > rwr



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              • eduardathome
                You still have not given an example of some product resulting from mysticism which is of value. I posed Jesus to give an example of one who might be considered
                Message 7 of 8 , Jan 24, 2013
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                  You still have not given an example of some product resulting from mysticism
                  which is of value.

                  I posed Jesus to give an example of one who might be considered a mystic. I
                  should think that the term "mystic" might apply when Jesus was a Rabbi who
                  was said to have communion with God. Yet what he came up with was mundane
                  and obvious. Albeit I would accept some people have to be told the mundane
                  in order to realise it. But the mundane does not require a mystic.

                  So over to you. If Abdus Salam is your example of a mystic, what did he
                  produce as a mystic that was of value??

                  eduard

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Dick.
                  Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2013 9:35 AM
                  To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [existlist] Re: The Safeguard of Ignorance


                  So you get your understanding of what mystical altered states of
                  conscious is from wackypeadia :- ))) That says it all. Yes I did mean
                  that Abdus Salam and he was a mystic. It was he who first asked me to
                  write a book about it. And hearing it was useful to him. What the frig
                  has this jesus geezer got to do with mystical experience???? You
                  don't obviously know a thing about it. So best keep your hush on
                  that topic. It is nothing to do with religions or beliefs. Did you
                  know that religions pinch stuff and then mess with it? No, I guess you
                  did not. So, what have you left the world which is useful then? And are
                  you the judge of what is useful to the world?

                  rwr


                  --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
                  >
                  > I did not say that the evolution of conscious awareness has no value.
                  I
                  > said that mysticism is of no value. Although I would more likely say
                  that
                  > it is the brain which has been subject to evolution, our ability to be
                  aware
                  > of stuff could be also be said to be evolved.
                  >
                  > I would use the definition of mysticism as provided by Wikipedia ...
                  >
                  > "Mysticism is the pursuit of communion with, identity with, or
                  conscious
                  > awareness of an ultimate reality, divinity, spiritual truth, or God
                  through
                  > direct experience, intuition, instinct or insight. Mysticism usually
                  centers
                  > on practices intended to nurture those experiences. Mysticism may be
                  > dualistic, maintaining a distinction between the self and the divine,
                  or may
                  > be non-dualistic."
                  >
                  > I can accept that certain people pursuing such as spiritual truth may
                  come
                  > up with expressions that may be of help to others in earlier periods
                  of
                  > human history, in that it may provide some mental comfort, but I don't
                  see
                  > this as being of value today. Especially when there is no god and
                  things
                  > divine have not been shown to be real.
                  >
                  > The value of a mystic is the value of what he/she produces for others.
                  So
                  > one could then ask what specifically related to this pursuit has been
                  of
                  > worth, as compared to the statements which could come from a
                  non-mystic.
                  >
                  > Was Jesus a mystic?? It's hard to tell, because we don't have an
                  insight
                  > into his own mind. But he did express the idea of ... love one
                  another as
                  > yourself. Is this a statement of a mystic?? Seems to me that you
                  don't
                  > need to be a mystic to come up with that ethic. It is in the realm of
                  the
                  > obvious.
                  >
                  > In any case, what is your point regarding Abdus Salam?? I have not
                  known of
                  > him other than what I have now read about him on the internet. He is
                  a
                  > physicist, or perhaps you are referring to some other Abdus Salam.
                  >
                  > What is most interesting in your post is that you haven't provided an
                  > example of something provided by a mystic that one might take as being
                  of
                  > value.
                  >
                  > eduard
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: Dick.
                  > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2013 11:07 PM
                  > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: [existlist] Re: The Safeguard of Ignorance
                  >
                  >
                  > So the evolution of conscious awareness has no value? Well you must
                  be
                  > the expert on that as well. Perhaps you would care to tell us what
                  such
                  > experiences reveal and what effects they have. Perhaps you could also
                  > name a few people who were mystics. How many mystical experiences
                  have
                  > you had and how long have you been having them? Hey, tell me, was
                  Abdus
                  > Salam a mystic or not? Did he fleece people for money by spewing a
                  load
                  > of junk and getting rich on the proceeds? Do you know what you are
                  > talking about? What effect did they have on you? Tell us about it.
                  >
                  > As for mining for minerals on asteroids and other bodies in space in
                  > time to come then it would only cost a lot of money to societies that
                  > used money as a means of exchange for labour. But for those who did
                  not
                  > then it would not cost anything at all; other than work and effort.
                  >
                  > So you can appreciate that Wilde made that comment just for effect?
                  And
                  > that makes it right does it? I can appreciate that he did not. I can
                  > appreciate that he meant it. When you talk and write then what effect
                  > are you aiming to achieve? And why?
                  >
                  > rwr
                  >
                  > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Probably because myticism has never revealed it has anything of
                  value,
                  > and
                  > > this stuff such as "altered states of consciousness" has not been
                  > shown to
                  > > be real. In the information age, people just get tired of hearing
                  the
                  > same
                  > > old, same old. Like Oral Roberts saying that god would "call him
                  > home"
                  > > unless he got another $8 million in donations. Or that Guru in
                  Oregon
                  > with
                  > > his 93 Rolls-Royces. It's no wonder there is some hostility.
                  > >
                  > > eduard
                  > >
                  > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > From: Dick.
                  > > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2013 12:07 PM
                  > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Subject: [existlist] The Safeguard of Ignorance
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > The Safeguard of Ignorance
                  > >
                  > > [ Why is there still so much hostility to even the mention of
                  > mysticism
                  > > and altered states of conscious, and the effects of becoming aware
                  of
                  > > more as a result of it? ]
                  > >
                  > > The safeguard of ignorance and its vested interests on the one hand
                  > and
                  > > fear of the unknown on the other. They make perfect bedfellows;
                  like
                  > a
                  > > shell around a nut. The preceding email pays testimony to this.
                  > >
                  > > rwr
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ------------------------------------
                  > >
                  > > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining
                  > nothing!
                  > >
                  > > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining
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                  >
                  > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
                  >



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