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The Safeguard of Ignorance

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  • Dick.
    The Safeguard of Ignorance [ Why is there still so much hostility to even the mention of mysticism and altered states of conscious, and the effects of becoming
    Message 1 of 8 , Jan 23, 2013
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      The Safeguard of Ignorance

      [ Why is there still so much hostility to even the mention of mysticism
      and altered states of conscious, and the effects of becoming aware of
      more as a result of it? ]

      The safeguard of ignorance and its vested interests on the one hand and
      fear of the unknown on the other. They make perfect bedfellows; like a
      shell around a nut. The preceding email pays testimony to this.

      rwr





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • eduardathome
      Probably because myticism has never revealed it has anything of value, and this stuff such as altered states of consciousness has not been shown to be real.
      Message 2 of 8 , Jan 23, 2013
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        Probably because myticism has never revealed it has anything of value, and
        this stuff such as "altered states of consciousness" has not been shown to
        be real. In the information age, people just get tired of hearing the same
        old, same old. Like Oral Roberts saying that god would "call him home"
        unless he got another $8 million in donations. Or that Guru in Oregon with
        his 93 Rolls-Royces. It's no wonder there is some hostility.

        eduard

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Dick.
        Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2013 12:07 PM
        To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [existlist] The Safeguard of Ignorance


        The Safeguard of Ignorance

        [ Why is there still so much hostility to even the mention of mysticism
        and altered states of conscious, and the effects of becoming aware of
        more as a result of it? ]

        The safeguard of ignorance and its vested interests on the one hand and
        fear of the unknown on the other. They make perfect bedfellows; like a
        shell around a nut. The preceding email pays testimony to this.

        rwr





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



        ------------------------------------

        Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining nothing!

        Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
      • Dick.
        So the evolution of conscious awareness has no value? Well you must be the expert on that as well. Perhaps you would care to tell us what such experiences
        Message 3 of 8 , Jan 23, 2013
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          So the evolution of conscious awareness has no value? Well you must be
          the expert on that as well. Perhaps you would care to tell us what such
          experiences reveal and what effects they have. Perhaps you could also
          name a few people who were mystics. How many mystical experiences have
          you had and how long have you been having them? Hey, tell me, was Abdus
          Salam a mystic or not? Did he fleece people for money by spewing a load
          of junk and getting rich on the proceeds? Do you know what you are
          talking about? What effect did they have on you? Tell us about it.

          As for mining for minerals on asteroids and other bodies in space in
          time to come then it would only cost a lot of money to societies that
          used money as a means of exchange for labour. But for those who did not
          then it would not cost anything at all; other than work and effort.

          So you can appreciate that Wilde made that comment just for effect? And
          that makes it right does it? I can appreciate that he did not. I can
          appreciate that he meant it. When you talk and write then what effect
          are you aiming to achieve? And why?

          rwr

          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
          >
          > Probably because myticism has never revealed it has anything of value,
          and
          > this stuff such as "altered states of consciousness" has not been
          shown to
          > be real. In the information age, people just get tired of hearing the
          same
          > old, same old. Like Oral Roberts saying that god would "call him
          home"
          > unless he got another $8 million in donations. Or that Guru in Oregon
          with
          > his 93 Rolls-Royces. It's no wonder there is some hostility.
          >
          > eduard
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Dick.
          > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2013 12:07 PM
          > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [existlist] The Safeguard of Ignorance
          >
          >
          > The Safeguard of Ignorance
          >
          > [ Why is there still so much hostility to even the mention of
          mysticism
          > and altered states of conscious, and the effects of becoming aware of
          > more as a result of it? ]
          >
          > The safeguard of ignorance and its vested interests on the one hand
          and
          > fear of the unknown on the other. They make perfect bedfellows; like
          a
          > shell around a nut. The preceding email pays testimony to this.
          >
          > rwr
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining
          nothing!
          >
          > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • devindersingh
          THERE is a mental approach to spiritual truths and there is a direct and immediate approach or rather contact. The mind sees as though through a mist, a
          Message 4 of 8 , Jan 23, 2013
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            THERE is a mental approach to spiritual truths and there is a direct and immediate approach or rather contact. The mind sees as though through a mist, a darkling glass, a more or less opaque veil, and the thing envisaged presents a blurred and not unoften a deformed appearance. The mind has its own pre-dispositions – its own categories and terms, its own forms and figures-which it has to use when it seeks to express that which is beyond it. Naturally the object, the truth as it is, it cannot apprehend or represent; it gives as it were the reverse side of an embroidery work. It goes round about the thing, has to take recourse to all kinds of contortions and gymnastics and grimaces to ape the natural gesture of the truth. But mind acts in this way, as a veil rather than' a medium, when one is stationed in it or below it and strains to look at what is above and beyond. On the other hand, if the consciousness is stationed above the mind, that is to say, if it has direct access or contact with the truth, the spiritual reality, in that case, mind need not act as a veil, it too can be made transparent, and sufflused with the higher light, it too can translate faithfully, present and embody the reality beyond somewhat as it actually is, in its native rhythm and figure and not diffracted and diffused through a hazy atmosphere.
            European thought, European philosophy particularly, moves under the aegis of the Mind. It takes its stand within the Mind and from there tries to reach out to truths and realities; and therefore, however far it goes, its highest flights of perception, its most intimate contacts with spirit-truths are 'sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought'. The Indian standpoint, on the contrary, is first to contact the truth by a direct realisation – through meditation, concentration, an uplifting and a deepening of the consciousness, through Yoga, spiritual discipline, and then endeavour to express the truth thus realised, directly intuited or revealed, through mental terms, to make it familiar and communicable to the normal intelligence. Mind, so subordinated and keyed to a new rhythm, becomes, as far as it is possible for it, a channel, a vehicle and not a veil. All the main systems of Indian philosophy have this characteristic as their background. Each stands on a definite experience, a spiritual realisation, a direct contact with an aspect of truth and in and -through that seeks to give a world-view, building "up an intellectual system, marshalling rational conclusions that are natural to it or derive inevitably from it. In the Upanishads, which preceded the Darshanas, the spiritual realisations were not yet mentally systematised or logically buttressed: truths were delivered there as self-evident statements, as certitudes luminous in their own authenticity. We accept them without question and take them into our consciousness as forming its fundamental norms, structuring its most intimate inscape. This is darśana, seeing, as philosophy is named in India. One sees the truth or reality and describes it as it is seen, its limbs and gestures, its constituents and functions. Philosophy here is fundamentally a recording of one's vision and a translation or presentation of it in mental terms.
            http://www.sriaurobindoashram.com/Content.aspx?ContentURL=_StaticContent/Sriaurobindoashram/-09%20E-Library/-03%20Disciples/Nolini%20Kanta%20Gupta/Volume-1/-61_Darshana%20and%20Philosophy.html
            Gulati
            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Dick." wrote:

            > So the evolution of conscious awareness has no value? Well you must be
            > the expert on that as well. Perhaps you would care to tell us what such
            > experiences reveal and what effects they have. Perhaps you could also
            > name a few people who were mystics. How many mystical experiences have
            > you had and how long have you been having them? Hey, tell me, was Abdus
            > Salam a mystic or not? Did he fleece people for money by spewing a load
            > of junk and getting rich on the proceeds? Do you know what you are
            > talking about? What effect did they have on you? Tell us about it.
            >
            > As for mining for minerals on asteroids and other bodies in space in
            > time to come then it would only cost a lot of money to societies that
            > used money as a means of exchange for labour. But for those who did not
            > then it would not cost anything at all; other than work and effort.
            >
            > So you can appreciate that Wilde made that comment just for effect? And
            > that makes it right does it? I can appreciate that he did not. I can
            > appreciate that he meant it. When you talk and write then what effect
            > are you aiming to achieve? And why?
            >
            > rwr
            >
            > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
            > >
            > > Probably because myticism has never revealed it has anything of value,
            > and
            > > this stuff such as "altered states of consciousness" has not been
            > shown to
            > > be real. In the information age, people just get tired of hearing the
            > same
            > > old, same old. Like Oral Roberts saying that god would "call him
            > home"
            > > unless he got another $8 million in donations. Or that Guru in Oregon
            > with
            > > his 93 Rolls-Royces. It's no wonder there is some hostility.
            > >
            > > eduard
            > >
            > > -----Original Message-----
            > > From: Dick.
            > > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2013 12:07 PM
            > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            > > Subject: [existlist] The Safeguard of Ignorance

            > > The Safeguard of Ignorance
            > >
            > > [ Why is there still so much hostility to even the mention of
            > mysticism
            > > and altered states of conscious, and the effects of becoming aware of
            > > more as a result of it? ]
            > >
            > > The safeguard of ignorance and its vested interests on the one hand
            > and
            > > fear of the unknown on the other. They make perfect bedfellows; like
            > a
            > > shell around a nut. The preceding email pays testimony to this.
            > >
            > > rwr
          • eduardathome
            I did not say that the evolution of conscious awareness has no value. I said that mysticism is of no value. Although I would more likely say that it is the
            Message 5 of 8 , Jan 24, 2013
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              I did not say that the evolution of conscious awareness has no value. I
              said that mysticism is of no value. Although I would more likely say that
              it is the brain which has been subject to evolution, our ability to be aware
              of stuff could be also be said to be evolved.

              I would use the definition of mysticism as provided by Wikipedia ...

              "Mysticism is the pursuit of communion with, identity with, or conscious
              awareness of an ultimate reality, divinity, spiritual truth, or God through
              direct experience, intuition, instinct or insight. Mysticism usually centers
              on practices intended to nurture those experiences. Mysticism may be
              dualistic, maintaining a distinction between the self and the divine, or may
              be non-dualistic."

              I can accept that certain people pursuing such as spiritual truth may come
              up with expressions that may be of help to others in earlier periods of
              human history, in that it may provide some mental comfort, but I don't see
              this as being of value today. Especially when there is no god and things
              divine have not been shown to be real.

              The value of a mystic is the value of what he/she produces for others. So
              one could then ask what specifically related to this pursuit has been of
              worth, as compared to the statements which could come from a non-mystic.

              Was Jesus a mystic?? It's hard to tell, because we don't have an insight
              into his own mind. But he did express the idea of ... love one another as
              yourself. Is this a statement of a mystic?? Seems to me that you don't
              need to be a mystic to come up with that ethic. It is in the realm of the
              obvious.

              In any case, what is your point regarding Abdus Salam?? I have not known of
              him other than what I have now read about him on the internet. He is a
              physicist, or perhaps you are referring to some other Abdus Salam.

              What is most interesting in your post is that you haven't provided an
              example of something provided by a mystic that one might take as being of
              value.

              eduard



              -----Original Message-----
              From: Dick.
              Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2013 11:07 PM
              To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [existlist] Re: The Safeguard of Ignorance


              So the evolution of conscious awareness has no value? Well you must be
              the expert on that as well. Perhaps you would care to tell us what such
              experiences reveal and what effects they have. Perhaps you could also
              name a few people who were mystics. How many mystical experiences have
              you had and how long have you been having them? Hey, tell me, was Abdus
              Salam a mystic or not? Did he fleece people for money by spewing a load
              of junk and getting rich on the proceeds? Do you know what you are
              talking about? What effect did they have on you? Tell us about it.

              As for mining for minerals on asteroids and other bodies in space in
              time to come then it would only cost a lot of money to societies that
              used money as a means of exchange for labour. But for those who did not
              then it would not cost anything at all; other than work and effort.

              So you can appreciate that Wilde made that comment just for effect? And
              that makes it right does it? I can appreciate that he did not. I can
              appreciate that he meant it. When you talk and write then what effect
              are you aiming to achieve? And why?

              rwr

              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
              >
              > Probably because myticism has never revealed it has anything of value,
              and
              > this stuff such as "altered states of consciousness" has not been
              shown to
              > be real. In the information age, people just get tired of hearing the
              same
              > old, same old. Like Oral Roberts saying that god would "call him
              home"
              > unless he got another $8 million in donations. Or that Guru in Oregon
              with
              > his 93 Rolls-Royces. It's no wonder there is some hostility.
              >
              > eduard
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Dick.
              > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2013 12:07 PM
              > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [existlist] The Safeguard of Ignorance
              >
              >
              > The Safeguard of Ignorance
              >
              > [ Why is there still so much hostility to even the mention of
              mysticism
              > and altered states of conscious, and the effects of becoming aware of
              > more as a result of it? ]
              >
              > The safeguard of ignorance and its vested interests on the one hand
              and
              > fear of the unknown on the other. They make perfect bedfellows; like
              a
              > shell around a nut. The preceding email pays testimony to this.
              >
              > rwr
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining
              nothing!
              >
              > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
              >



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



              ------------------------------------

              Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining nothing!

              Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
            • Dick.
              So you get your understanding of what mystical altered states of conscious is from wackypeadia :- ))) That says it all. Yes I did mean that Abdus Salam and
              Message 6 of 8 , Jan 24, 2013
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                So you get your understanding of what mystical altered states of
                conscious is from wackypeadia :- ))) That says it all. Yes I did mean
                that Abdus Salam and he was a mystic. It was he who first asked me to
                write a book about it. And hearing it was useful to him. What the frig
                has this jesus geezer got to do with mystical experience???? You
                don't obviously know a thing about it. So best keep your hush on
                that topic. It is nothing to do with religions or beliefs. Did you
                know that religions pinch stuff and then mess with it? No, I guess you
                did not. So, what have you left the world which is useful then? And are
                you the judge of what is useful to the world?

                rwr


                --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
                >
                > I did not say that the evolution of conscious awareness has no value.
                I
                > said that mysticism is of no value. Although I would more likely say
                that
                > it is the brain which has been subject to evolution, our ability to be
                aware
                > of stuff could be also be said to be evolved.
                >
                > I would use the definition of mysticism as provided by Wikipedia ...
                >
                > "Mysticism is the pursuit of communion with, identity with, or
                conscious
                > awareness of an ultimate reality, divinity, spiritual truth, or God
                through
                > direct experience, intuition, instinct or insight. Mysticism usually
                centers
                > on practices intended to nurture those experiences. Mysticism may be
                > dualistic, maintaining a distinction between the self and the divine,
                or may
                > be non-dualistic."
                >
                > I can accept that certain people pursuing such as spiritual truth may
                come
                > up with expressions that may be of help to others in earlier periods
                of
                > human history, in that it may provide some mental comfort, but I don't
                see
                > this as being of value today. Especially when there is no god and
                things
                > divine have not been shown to be real.
                >
                > The value of a mystic is the value of what he/she produces for others.
                So
                > one could then ask what specifically related to this pursuit has been
                of
                > worth, as compared to the statements which could come from a
                non-mystic.
                >
                > Was Jesus a mystic?? It's hard to tell, because we don't have an
                insight
                > into his own mind. But he did express the idea of ... love one
                another as
                > yourself. Is this a statement of a mystic?? Seems to me that you
                don't
                > need to be a mystic to come up with that ethic. It is in the realm of
                the
                > obvious.
                >
                > In any case, what is your point regarding Abdus Salam?? I have not
                known of
                > him other than what I have now read about him on the internet. He is
                a
                > physicist, or perhaps you are referring to some other Abdus Salam.
                >
                > What is most interesting in your post is that you haven't provided an
                > example of something provided by a mystic that one might take as being
                of
                > value.
                >
                > eduard
                >
                >
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Dick.
                > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2013 11:07 PM
                > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: [existlist] Re: The Safeguard of Ignorance
                >
                >
                > So the evolution of conscious awareness has no value? Well you must
                be
                > the expert on that as well. Perhaps you would care to tell us what
                such
                > experiences reveal and what effects they have. Perhaps you could also
                > name a few people who were mystics. How many mystical experiences
                have
                > you had and how long have you been having them? Hey, tell me, was
                Abdus
                > Salam a mystic or not? Did he fleece people for money by spewing a
                load
                > of junk and getting rich on the proceeds? Do you know what you are
                > talking about? What effect did they have on you? Tell us about it.
                >
                > As for mining for minerals on asteroids and other bodies in space in
                > time to come then it would only cost a lot of money to societies that
                > used money as a means of exchange for labour. But for those who did
                not
                > then it would not cost anything at all; other than work and effort.
                >
                > So you can appreciate that Wilde made that comment just for effect?
                And
                > that makes it right does it? I can appreciate that he did not. I can
                > appreciate that he meant it. When you talk and write then what effect
                > are you aiming to achieve? And why?
                >
                > rwr
                >
                > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
                > >
                > > Probably because myticism has never revealed it has anything of
                value,
                > and
                > > this stuff such as "altered states of consciousness" has not been
                > shown to
                > > be real. In the information age, people just get tired of hearing
                the
                > same
                > > old, same old. Like Oral Roberts saying that god would "call him
                > home"
                > > unless he got another $8 million in donations. Or that Guru in
                Oregon
                > with
                > > his 93 Rolls-Royces. It's no wonder there is some hostility.
                > >
                > > eduard
                > >
                > > -----Original Message-----
                > > From: Dick.
                > > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2013 12:07 PM
                > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                > > Subject: [existlist] The Safeguard of Ignorance
                > >
                > >
                > > The Safeguard of Ignorance
                > >
                > > [ Why is there still so much hostility to even the mention of
                > mysticism
                > > and altered states of conscious, and the effects of becoming aware
                of
                > > more as a result of it? ]
                > >
                > > The safeguard of ignorance and its vested interests on the one hand
                > and
                > > fear of the unknown on the other. They make perfect bedfellows;
                like
                > a
                > > shell around a nut. The preceding email pays testimony to this.
                > >
                > > rwr
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > ------------------------------------
                > >
                > > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining
                > nothing!
                > >
                > > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining
                nothing!
                >
                > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
                >



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • eduardathome
                It is of interest to note that Indians somehow have a different brain than Europeans. Taking the tone of your post, I would say that Indians through their Yoga
                Message 7 of 8 , Jan 24, 2013
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                  It is of interest to note that Indians somehow have a different brain than
                  Europeans.

                  Taking the tone of your post, I would say that Indians through their Yoga or
                  whatever are able to invent what they think is the truth. Whereas the
                  European can see the truth directly without all this preparation, because
                  "truth" is the obvious.

                  If I am wrong, then please identify a truth which can be seen by an Indian
                  and not a European.

                  eduard

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: devindersingh
                  Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2013 1:46 AM
                  To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [existlist] Re: The Safeguard of Ignorance

                  THERE is a mental approach to spiritual truths and there is a direct and
                  immediate approach or rather contact. The mind sees as though through a
                  mist, a darkling glass, a more or less opaque veil, and the thing envisaged
                  presents a blurred and not unoften a deformed appearance. The mind has its
                  own pre-dispositions – its own categories and terms, its own forms and
                  figures-which it has to use when it seeks to express that which is beyond
                  it. Naturally the object, the truth as it is, it cannot apprehend or
                  represent; it gives as it were the reverse side of an embroidery work. It
                  goes round about the thing, has to take recourse to all kinds of contortions
                  and gymnastics and grimaces to ape the natural gesture of the truth. But
                  mind acts in this way, as a veil rather than' a medium, when one is
                  stationed in it or below it and strains to look at what is above and beyond.
                  On the other hand, if the consciousness is stationed above the mind, that is
                  to say, if it has direct access or contact with the truth, the spiritual
                  reality, in that case, mind need not act as a veil, it too can be made
                  transparent, and sufflused with the higher light, it too can translate
                  faithfully, present and embody the reality beyond somewhat as it actually
                  is, in its native rhythm and figure and not diffracted and diffused through
                  a hazy atmosphere.

                  European thought, European philosophy particularly, moves under the aegis of
                  the Mind. It takes its stand within the Mind and from there tries to reach
                  out to truths and realities; and therefore, however far it goes, its highest
                  flights of perception, its most intimate contacts with spirit-truths are
                  'sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought'. The Indian standpoint, on the
                  contrary, is first to contact the truth by a direct realisation – through
                  meditation, concentration, an uplifting and a deepening of the
                  consciousness, through Yoga, spiritual discipline, and then endeavour to
                  express the truth thus realised, directly intuited or revealed, through
                  mental terms, to make it familiar and communicable to the normal
                  intelligence. Mind, so subordinated and keyed to a new rhythm, becomes, as
                  far as it is possible for it, a channel, a vehicle and not a veil. All the
                  main systems of Indian philosophy have this characteristic as their
                  background. Each stands on a definite experience, a spiritual realisation, a
                  direct contact with an aspect of truth and in and -through that seeks to
                  give a world-view, building "up an intellectual system, marshalling rational
                  conclusions that are natural to it or derive inevitably from it. In the
                  Upanishads, which preceded the Darshanas, the spiritual realisations were
                  not yet mentally systematised or logically buttressed: truths were delivered
                  there as self-evident statements, as certitudes luminous in their own
                  authenticity. We accept them without question and take them into our
                  consciousness as forming its fundamental norms, structuring its most
                  intimate inscape. This is darśana, seeing, as philosophy is named in
                  India. One sees the truth or reality and describes it as it is seen, its
                  limbs and gestures, its constituents and functions. Philosophy here is
                  fundamentally a recording of one's vision and a translation or presentation
                  of it in mental terms.
                  http://www.sriaurobindoashram.com/Content.aspx?ContentURL=_StaticContent/Sriaurobindoashram/-09%20E-Library/-03%20Disciples/Nolini%20Kanta%20Gupta/Volume-1/-61_Darshana%20and%20Philosophy.html
                  Gulati
                  --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Dick." wrote:

                  > So the evolution of conscious awareness has no value? Well you must be
                  > the expert on that as well. Perhaps you would care to tell us what such
                  > experiences reveal and what effects they have. Perhaps you could also
                  > name a few people who were mystics. How many mystical experiences have
                  > you had and how long have you been having them? Hey, tell me, was Abdus
                  > Salam a mystic or not? Did he fleece people for money by spewing a load
                  > of junk and getting rich on the proceeds? Do you know what you are
                  > talking about? What effect did they have on you? Tell us about it.
                  >
                  > As for mining for minerals on asteroids and other bodies in space in
                  > time to come then it would only cost a lot of money to societies that
                  > used money as a means of exchange for labour. But for those who did not
                  > then it would not cost anything at all; other than work and effort.
                  >
                  > So you can appreciate that Wilde made that comment just for effect? And
                  > that makes it right does it? I can appreciate that he did not. I can
                  > appreciate that he meant it. When you talk and write then what effect
                  > are you aiming to achieve? And why?
                  >
                  > rwr
                  >
                  > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Probably because myticism has never revealed it has anything of value,
                  > and
                  > > this stuff such as "altered states of consciousness" has not been
                  > shown to
                  > > be real. In the information age, people just get tired of hearing the
                  > same
                  > > old, same old. Like Oral Roberts saying that god would "call him
                  > home"
                  > > unless he got another $8 million in donations. Or that Guru in Oregon
                  > with
                  > > his 93 Rolls-Royces. It's no wonder there is some hostility.
                  > >
                  > > eduard
                  > >
                  > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > From: Dick.
                  > > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2013 12:07 PM
                  > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Subject: [existlist] The Safeguard of Ignorance

                  > > The Safeguard of Ignorance
                  > >
                  > > [ Why is there still so much hostility to even the mention of
                  > mysticism
                  > > and altered states of conscious, and the effects of becoming aware of
                  > > more as a result of it? ]
                  > >
                  > > The safeguard of ignorance and its vested interests on the one hand
                  > and
                  > > fear of the unknown on the other. They make perfect bedfellows; like
                  > a
                  > > shell around a nut. The preceding email pays testimony to this.
                  > >
                  > > rwr



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                • eduardathome
                  You still have not given an example of some product resulting from mysticism which is of value. I posed Jesus to give an example of one who might be considered
                  Message 8 of 8 , Jan 24, 2013
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                    You still have not given an example of some product resulting from mysticism
                    which is of value.

                    I posed Jesus to give an example of one who might be considered a mystic. I
                    should think that the term "mystic" might apply when Jesus was a Rabbi who
                    was said to have communion with God. Yet what he came up with was mundane
                    and obvious. Albeit I would accept some people have to be told the mundane
                    in order to realise it. But the mundane does not require a mystic.

                    So over to you. If Abdus Salam is your example of a mystic, what did he
                    produce as a mystic that was of value??

                    eduard

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Dick.
                    Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2013 9:35 AM
                    To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [existlist] Re: The Safeguard of Ignorance


                    So you get your understanding of what mystical altered states of
                    conscious is from wackypeadia :- ))) That says it all. Yes I did mean
                    that Abdus Salam and he was a mystic. It was he who first asked me to
                    write a book about it. And hearing it was useful to him. What the frig
                    has this jesus geezer got to do with mystical experience???? You
                    don't obviously know a thing about it. So best keep your hush on
                    that topic. It is nothing to do with religions or beliefs. Did you
                    know that religions pinch stuff and then mess with it? No, I guess you
                    did not. So, what have you left the world which is useful then? And are
                    you the judge of what is useful to the world?

                    rwr


                    --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
                    >
                    > I did not say that the evolution of conscious awareness has no value.
                    I
                    > said that mysticism is of no value. Although I would more likely say
                    that
                    > it is the brain which has been subject to evolution, our ability to be
                    aware
                    > of stuff could be also be said to be evolved.
                    >
                    > I would use the definition of mysticism as provided by Wikipedia ...
                    >
                    > "Mysticism is the pursuit of communion with, identity with, or
                    conscious
                    > awareness of an ultimate reality, divinity, spiritual truth, or God
                    through
                    > direct experience, intuition, instinct or insight. Mysticism usually
                    centers
                    > on practices intended to nurture those experiences. Mysticism may be
                    > dualistic, maintaining a distinction between the self and the divine,
                    or may
                    > be non-dualistic."
                    >
                    > I can accept that certain people pursuing such as spiritual truth may
                    come
                    > up with expressions that may be of help to others in earlier periods
                    of
                    > human history, in that it may provide some mental comfort, but I don't
                    see
                    > this as being of value today. Especially when there is no god and
                    things
                    > divine have not been shown to be real.
                    >
                    > The value of a mystic is the value of what he/she produces for others.
                    So
                    > one could then ask what specifically related to this pursuit has been
                    of
                    > worth, as compared to the statements which could come from a
                    non-mystic.
                    >
                    > Was Jesus a mystic?? It's hard to tell, because we don't have an
                    insight
                    > into his own mind. But he did express the idea of ... love one
                    another as
                    > yourself. Is this a statement of a mystic?? Seems to me that you
                    don't
                    > need to be a mystic to come up with that ethic. It is in the realm of
                    the
                    > obvious.
                    >
                    > In any case, what is your point regarding Abdus Salam?? I have not
                    known of
                    > him other than what I have now read about him on the internet. He is
                    a
                    > physicist, or perhaps you are referring to some other Abdus Salam.
                    >
                    > What is most interesting in your post is that you haven't provided an
                    > example of something provided by a mystic that one might take as being
                    of
                    > value.
                    >
                    > eduard
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: Dick.
                    > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2013 11:07 PM
                    > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: [existlist] Re: The Safeguard of Ignorance
                    >
                    >
                    > So the evolution of conscious awareness has no value? Well you must
                    be
                    > the expert on that as well. Perhaps you would care to tell us what
                    such
                    > experiences reveal and what effects they have. Perhaps you could also
                    > name a few people who were mystics. How many mystical experiences
                    have
                    > you had and how long have you been having them? Hey, tell me, was
                    Abdus
                    > Salam a mystic or not? Did he fleece people for money by spewing a
                    load
                    > of junk and getting rich on the proceeds? Do you know what you are
                    > talking about? What effect did they have on you? Tell us about it.
                    >
                    > As for mining for minerals on asteroids and other bodies in space in
                    > time to come then it would only cost a lot of money to societies that
                    > used money as a means of exchange for labour. But for those who did
                    not
                    > then it would not cost anything at all; other than work and effort.
                    >
                    > So you can appreciate that Wilde made that comment just for effect?
                    And
                    > that makes it right does it? I can appreciate that he did not. I can
                    > appreciate that he meant it. When you talk and write then what effect
                    > are you aiming to achieve? And why?
                    >
                    > rwr
                    >
                    > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Probably because myticism has never revealed it has anything of
                    value,
                    > and
                    > > this stuff such as "altered states of consciousness" has not been
                    > shown to
                    > > be real. In the information age, people just get tired of hearing
                    the
                    > same
                    > > old, same old. Like Oral Roberts saying that god would "call him
                    > home"
                    > > unless he got another $8 million in donations. Or that Guru in
                    Oregon
                    > with
                    > > his 93 Rolls-Royces. It's no wonder there is some hostility.
                    > >
                    > > eduard
                    > >
                    > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > From: Dick.
                    > > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2013 12:07 PM
                    > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                    > > Subject: [existlist] The Safeguard of Ignorance
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > The Safeguard of Ignorance
                    > >
                    > > [ Why is there still so much hostility to even the mention of
                    > mysticism
                    > > and altered states of conscious, and the effects of becoming aware
                    of
                    > > more as a result of it? ]
                    > >
                    > > The safeguard of ignorance and its vested interests on the one hand
                    > and
                    > > fear of the unknown on the other. They make perfect bedfellows;
                    like
                    > a
                    > > shell around a nut. The preceding email pays testimony to this.
                    > >
                    > > rwr
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ------------------------------------
                    > >
                    > > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining
                    > nothing!
                    > >
                    > > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining
                    nothing!
                    >
                    > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
                    >



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