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Re: The kill list

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  • Mary
    So, eduard. How long does it take a neuron to become ethical?
    Message 1 of 10 , Jan 7, 2013
    • 0 Attachment
      So, eduard. How long does it take a neuron to become ethical?

      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
      >
      > I can think of 4 points against drones.
      >
      > The first is ethical or moral. We are moving towards the view that it is Ok
      > to kill, as long as you do it at a distance. So what if we blow away some
      > citizens in the effort to do away with some Taliban leader. It's just
      > "them" over there.
      >
      > The second is our inability to wage a war with casualties. The main reason
      > why the US lost the war in Vietnam was because the body count was given each
      > night on the evening news. The terrorists know this. There were 158
      > Canadian soldiers who died in Afghanistan. When the first soldiers died,
      > the Prime Minister went to receive them back into Canada with pomp and
      > glory. As the toll mounted, the less the political will to continue. They
      > renamed part of the 401 highway ... the Highway of Heros. People lined the
      > highway waving Canadian flags as the coffins went by. A Taliban soldier
      > gets killed and they just go and find a replacement. A Canadian soldier
      > dies and there is more talk of withdrawing. And now we are gone. Soon the
      > US will be gone. And the Taliban will move back into power and reopen that
      > soccer stadium to shoot women who refuse to wear that over the body mask.
      > They will close the nice schools we built and chop off the arms of the
      > little girl students. And all the while we will cover our inability to wage
      > war because some soldiers might die.
      >
      > The third is that drones will not be limited to war. They will be used by
      > Homeland Security and other enforcement organizations to spy on and control
      > the US population. We are moving towards a police state if not there
      > already.
      >
      > The fourth is all these drones in US airspace that will compete with
      > aircraft. Of course, we will soon have commercial aircraft without pilots
      > ... it's cheaper.
      >
      > eduardathome
      >
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: William
      > Sent: Monday, January 07, 2013 3:03 PM
      > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [existlist] The kill list
      >
      > Some years ago I predicted that robots,drones, would turn the tide of battle
      > in the war on terrorism. I think we can say they have been highly
      > instrumental in our rolling back AlQueda and limiting US casualties.
      > The terrorists certainly do not advertise their identities or where abouts.
      > Only highly classified intelligence methods uncover who and where these
      > killers are and where they are hiding. We cannot reveal these methods and
      > must rely on oversight bodies in the government to make decisions about the
      > use of these covert weapons systems.
      > Now just war is a roman catholic engagement theory of war. Many of the
      > people who propose drone use ,including John Brennan, find drones
      > acceptable.
      > I have not been a proponent of most catholic doctrines but in this case I
      > find myself agreeing with the drone faction. My reasons are:They work,They
      > limit collateral damage, They limit US casualties. The terrorists are being
      > decimated by the drones and they truly fear them. I find it good to
      > terrorise a terrorist. It limits their ability to strike us and it is
      > cheaper than land patrolling and more stealthy than fighter bomber strikes.
      > Obama and the air force just cancelled the f16 squadren here . It is obvious
      > which way we will continue to prosecute what remains of the war. The other
      > side is screaming especially the Packistani intelligence operatives who
      > consort with the Taliban and Alqueda . They were hiding Osama and they tip
      > off the terrorists and thwart our efforts to sanction the terror forces.
      > The drones take them out of the loop and deny national protection to our
      > enemies.
      > So I am for the kill list even if it is confined to a few congressional
      > oversight people,the white house and the intelligence agencies to monitor
      > the conflict. In a covert war that is all you can let in the loop if you
      > wish to prevail.We have developed the key to breaking the back of this
      > deadly cohort,lets not throw it away. Bill
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining nothing!
      >
      > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
      >
    • William
      ... I find the ethical argument to be it is unethical to waste our oun fighters unnecessarily. We did make that ethical error in Nam and paid for it. Of course
      Message 2 of 10 , Jan 8, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
        >
        > I can think of 4 points against drones.
        >
        > The first is ethical or moral. We are moving towards the view that it is Ok
        > to kill, as long as you do it at a distance. So what if we blow away some
        > citizens in the effort to do away with some Taliban leader. It's just
        > "them" over there.
        >
        > The second is our inability to wage a war with casualties. The main reason
        > why the US lost the war in Vietnam was because the body count was given each
        > night on the evening news. The terrorists know this. There were 158
        > Canadian soldiers who died in Afghanistan. When the first soldiers died,
        > the Prime Minister went to receive them back into Canada with pomp and
        > glory. As the toll mounted, the less the political will to continue. They
        > renamed part of the 401 highway ... the Highway of Heros. People lined the
        > highway waving Canadian flags as the coffins went by. A Taliban soldier
        > gets killed and they just go and find a replacement. A Canadian soldier
        > dies and there is more talk of withdrawing. And now we are gone. Soon the
        > US will be gone. And the Taliban will move back into power and reopen that
        > soccer stadium to shoot women who refuse to wear that over the body mask.
        > They will close the nice schools we built and chop off the arms of the
        > little girl students. And all the while we will cover our inability to wage
        > war because some soldiers might die.
        >
        > The third is that drones will not be limited to war. They will be used by
        > Homeland Security and other enforcement organizations to spy on and control
        > the US population. We are moving towards a police state if not there
        > already.
        >
        > The fourth is all these drones in US airspace that will compete with
        > aircraft. Of course, we will soon have commercial aircraft without pilots
        > ... it's cheaper.
        >
        > eduardathome
        > Eduard, I find the terrorist enemy pure rogue. They are international out laws who kill civilians for effect. They support no rules of engagement not even a national identity. With such an adversary ,killing them efficiently is of first order. Drones are cheap and effective.
        I find the ethical argument to be it is unethical to waste our oun fighters unnecessarily. We did make that ethical error in Nam and paid for it. Of course we got in a land war in Asia and Mac Aurther had warned us about that.
        As to the police state possibility ,if you want privacy move to the country,off the grid. The populated areas will continue to see higher policing even as crime drops. Speed traps cameras and even drones will be used as long as they generate revinue. What does the stealth capabilities of drones do to the ability of aircraft to detect drones. Are they a greater danger?Bill
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: William
        > Sent: Monday, January 07, 2013 3:03 PM
        > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [existlist] The kill list
        >
        > Some years ago I predicted that robots,drones, would turn the tide of battle
        > in the war on terrorism. I think we can say they have been highly
        > instrumental in our rolling back AlQueda and limiting US casualties.
        > The terrorists certainly do not advertise their identities or where abouts.
        > Only highly classified intelligence methods uncover who and where these
        > killers are and where they are hiding. We cannot reveal these methods and
        > must rely on oversight bodies in the government to make decisions about the
        > use of these covert weapons systems.
        > Now just war is a roman catholic engagement theory of war. Many of the
        > people who propose drone use ,including John Brennan, find drones
        > acceptable.
        > I have not been a proponent of most catholic doctrines but in this case I
        > find myself agreeing with the drone faction. My reasons are:They work,They
        > limit collateral damage, They limit US casualties. The terrorists are being
        > decimated by the drones and they truly fear them. I find it good to
        > terrorise a terrorist. It limits their ability to strike us and it is
        > cheaper than land patrolling and more stealthy than fighter bomber strikes.
        > Obama and the air force just cancelled the f16 squadren here . It is obvious
        > which way we will continue to prosecute what remains of the war. The other
        > side is screaming especially the Packistani intelligence operatives who
        > consort with the Taliban and Alqueda . They were hiding Osama and they tip
        > off the terrorists and thwart our efforts to sanction the terror forces.
        > The drones take them out of the loop and deny national protection to our
        > enemies.
        > So I am for the kill list even if it is confined to a few congressional
        > oversight people,the white house and the intelligence agencies to monitor
        > the conflict. In a covert war that is all you can let in the loop if you
        > wish to prevail.We have developed the key to breaking the back of this
        > deadly cohort,lets not throw it away. Bill
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining nothing!
        >
        > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
        >
      • eduardathome
        A neuron does not become ethical. One has mental scripts that can be described as ethical or moral. The scripts are learned. Both those which are ethical
        Message 3 of 10 , Jan 8, 2013
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          A neuron does not become ethical. One has mental scripts that can be
          described as ethical or moral. The scripts are learned. Both those which
          are ethical those which are not. The mental script which is ethical ... or
          not ... pertains to what we consider to be right or wrong action. I think
          it is ethically wrong to establish a system for which one kills at a
          distance. Of course that also involves a lot of discussion so it isn't
          black and white although it may appear so on the surface.

          I am not advocating that we go back to one on one fighting or charges
          against a machine gun emplacement. War in itself is ethically wrong, but
          that is what humans do.

          Or perhaps it is just the way I feel about it. There is something wrong
          with spraying a street in Pakistan with bullets, by someone who is sitting
          in front of a computer screen in Colorado. War then becomes remote and so
          does our empathy for the other side.

          eduard

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Mary
          Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2013 12:19 AM
          To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [existlist] Re: The kill list

          So, eduard. How long does it take a neuron to become ethical?

          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
          >
          > I can think of 4 points against drones.
          >
          > The first is ethical or moral. We are moving towards the view that it is
          > Ok
          > to kill, as long as you do it at a distance. So what if we blow away some
          > citizens in the effort to do away with some Taliban leader. It's just
          > "them" over there.
          >
          > The second is our inability to wage a war with casualties. The main
          > reason
          > why the US lost the war in Vietnam was because the body count was given
          > each
          > night on the evening news. The terrorists know this. There were 158
          > Canadian soldiers who died in Afghanistan. When the first soldiers died,
          > the Prime Minister went to receive them back into Canada with pomp and
          > glory. As the toll mounted, the less the political will to continue.
          > They
          > renamed part of the 401 highway ... the Highway of Heros. People lined
          > the
          > highway waving Canadian flags as the coffins went by. A Taliban soldier
          > gets killed and they just go and find a replacement. A Canadian soldier
          > dies and there is more talk of withdrawing. And now we are gone. Soon
          > the
          > US will be gone. And the Taliban will move back into power and reopen
          > that
          > soccer stadium to shoot women who refuse to wear that over the body mask.
          > They will close the nice schools we built and chop off the arms of the
          > little girl students. And all the while we will cover our inability to
          > wage
          > war because some soldiers might die.
          >
          > The third is that drones will not be limited to war. They will be used by
          > Homeland Security and other enforcement organizations to spy on and
          > control
          > the US population. We are moving towards a police state if not there
          > already.
          >
          > The fourth is all these drones in US airspace that will compete with
          > aircraft. Of course, we will soon have commercial aircraft without pilots
          > ... it's cheaper.
          >
          > eduardathome
          >
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: William
          > Sent: Monday, January 07, 2013 3:03 PM
          > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [existlist] The kill list
          >
          > Some years ago I predicted that robots,drones, would turn the tide of
          > battle
          > in the war on terrorism. I think we can say they have been highly
          > instrumental in our rolling back AlQueda and limiting US casualties.
          > The terrorists certainly do not advertise their identities or where
          > abouts.
          > Only highly classified intelligence methods uncover who and where these
          > killers are and where they are hiding. We cannot reveal these methods and
          > must rely on oversight bodies in the government to make decisions about
          > the
          > use of these covert weapons systems.
          > Now just war is a roman catholic engagement theory of war. Many of the
          > people who propose drone use ,including John Brennan, find drones
          > acceptable.
          > I have not been a proponent of most catholic doctrines but in this case I
          > find myself agreeing with the drone faction. My reasons are:They
          > work,They
          > limit collateral damage, They limit US casualties. The terrorists are
          > being
          > decimated by the drones and they truly fear them. I find it good to
          > terrorise a terrorist. It limits their ability to strike us and it is
          > cheaper than land patrolling and more stealthy than fighter bomber
          > strikes.
          > Obama and the air force just cancelled the f16 squadren here . It is
          > obvious
          > which way we will continue to prosecute what remains of the war. The
          > other
          > side is screaming especially the Packistani intelligence operatives who
          > consort with the Taliban and Alqueda . They were hiding Osama and they
          > tip
          > off the terrorists and thwart our efforts to sanction the terror forces.
          > The drones take them out of the loop and deny national protection to our
          > enemies.
          > So I am for the kill list even if it is confined to a few congressional
          > oversight people,the white house and the intelligence agencies to monitor
          > the conflict. In a covert war that is all you can let in the loop if you
          > wish to prevail.We have developed the key to breaking the back of this
          > deadly cohort,lets not throw it away. Bill
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining nothing!
          >
          > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
          >




          ------------------------------------

          Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining nothing!

          Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
        • eduardathome
          I tend to agree that if you have an enemy, then it s appropriate to kill him/her the fastest most efficient way possible. And drones operated remotely do a
          Message 4 of 10 , Jan 8, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
            I tend to agree that if you have an enemy, then it's appropriate to kill
            him/her the fastest most efficient way possible. And drones operated
            remotely do a fine job. What I am reacting to is the act of killing
            remotely without any real direct engagement. I just feel that there is an
            ethical wrong here in pushing a button and blowing away someone who is
            perhaps 10,000 miles away. In a way that is what happened in Vietnam. We
            carpet bombed the country with B-52s and I doubt that many people felt
            uneasy about it. Thousands of Asians were killed, but our primary concern
            was how many more Americans were in the body count for the 6 o'clock news.

            At the time, I was probably cheering the B-52s on, but with perfect
            hindsight, it just seems wrong.

            eduard


            Eduard, I find the terrorist enemy pure rogue. They are international out
            laws who kill civilians for effect. They support no rules of engagement not
            even a national identity. With such an adversary ,killing them efficiently
            is of first order. Drones are cheap and effective.
            I find the ethical argument to be it is unethical to waste our oun fighters
            unnecessarily. We did make that ethical error in Nam and paid for it. Of
            course we got in a land war in Asia and Mac Aurther had warned us about
            that.
            As to the police state possibility ,if you want privacy move to the
            country,off the grid. The populated areas will continue to see higher
            policing even as crime drops. Speed traps cameras and even drones will be
            used as long as they generate revinue. What does the stealth capabilities of
            drones do to the ability of aircraft to detect drones. Are they a greater
            danger?Bill

            -----Original Message-----
            From: William
            Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2013 11:48 AM
            To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [existlist] Re: The kill list



            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
            >
            > I can think of 4 points against drones.
            >
            > The first is ethical or moral. We are moving towards the view that it is
            > Ok
            > to kill, as long as you do it at a distance. So what if we blow away some
            > citizens in the effort to do away with some Taliban leader. It's just
            > "them" over there.
            >
            > The second is our inability to wage a war with casualties. The main
            > reason
            > why the US lost the war in Vietnam was because the body count was given
            > each
            > night on the evening news. The terrorists know this. There were 158
            > Canadian soldiers who died in Afghanistan. When the first soldiers died,
            > the Prime Minister went to receive them back into Canada with pomp and
            > glory. As the toll mounted, the less the political will to continue.
            > They
            > renamed part of the 401 highway ... the Highway of Heros. People lined
            > the
            > highway waving Canadian flags as the coffins went by. A Taliban soldier
            > gets killed and they just go and find a replacement. A Canadian soldier
            > dies and there is more talk of withdrawing. And now we are gone. Soon
            > the
            > US will be gone. And the Taliban will move back into power and reopen
            > that
            > soccer stadium to shoot women who refuse to wear that over the body mask.
            > They will close the nice schools we built and chop off the arms of the
            > little girl students. And all the while we will cover our inability to
            > wage
            > war because some soldiers might die.
            >
            > The third is that drones will not be limited to war. They will be used by
            > Homeland Security and other enforcement organizations to spy on and
            > control
            > the US population. We are moving towards a police state if not there
            > already.
            >
            > The fourth is all these drones in US airspace that will compete with
            > aircraft. Of course, we will soon have commercial aircraft without pilots
            > ... it's cheaper.
            >
            > eduardathome
            > >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: William
            > Sent: Monday, January 07, 2013 3:03 PM
            > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [existlist] The kill list
            >
            > Some years ago I predicted that robots,drones, would turn the tide of
            > battle
            > in the war on terrorism. I think we can say they have been highly
            > instrumental in our rolling back AlQueda and limiting US casualties.
            > The terrorists certainly do not advertise their identities or where
            > abouts.
            > Only highly classified intelligence methods uncover who and where these
            > killers are and where they are hiding. We cannot reveal these methods and
            > must rely on oversight bodies in the government to make decisions about
            > the
            > use of these covert weapons systems.
            > Now just war is a roman catholic engagement theory of war. Many of the
            > people who propose drone use ,including John Brennan, find drones
            > acceptable.
            > I have not been a proponent of most catholic doctrines but in this case I
            > find myself agreeing with the drone faction. My reasons are:They
            > work,They
            > limit collateral damage, They limit US casualties. The terrorists are
            > being
            > decimated by the drones and they truly fear them. I find it good to
            > terrorise a terrorist. It limits their ability to strike us and it is
            > cheaper than land patrolling and more stealthy than fighter bomber
            > strikes.
            > Obama and the air force just cancelled the f16 squadren here . It is
            > obvious
            > which way we will continue to prosecute what remains of the war. The
            > other
            > side is screaming especially the Packistani intelligence operatives who
            > consort with the Taliban and Alqueda . They were hiding Osama and they
            > tip
            > off the terrorists and thwart our efforts to sanction the terror forces.
            > The drones take them out of the loop and deny national protection to our
            > enemies.
            > So I am for the kill list even if it is confined to a few congressional
            > oversight people,the white house and the intelligence agencies to monitor
            > the conflict. In a covert war that is all you can let in the loop if you
            > wish to prevail.We have developed the key to breaking the back of this
            > deadly cohort,lets not throw it away. Bill
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining nothing!
            >
            > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
            >




            ------------------------------------

            Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining nothing!

            Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
          • William
            Now that we will have less crucial need to take mid east oil we might proceed with a more even handed approach to islamic states. They will have markets for
            Message 5 of 10 , Jan 8, 2013
            • 0 Attachment
              Now that we will have less crucial need to take mid east oil we might proceed with a more even handed approach to islamic states. They will have markets for their energy and better run economys might return some of the profits to the peoples of the region. The age of the dictators is coming to an end and the visit of the Egyptian president can be a chance to deal with elected leadership . I do not expect them to act like western liberals, they will be of the islamic brotherhood and like political organisations . As we leave their terratories they can have greater autonomy and perhaps will bear less hatred of the west. If they continue terrorist attacks against us we will still have the drones. As for Israel I do not know how they will fare. Obama and Hagel seem less inclined to get into war over Israel.
              I do not want a kill list and hope it is no longer needed. Negotiations,not hell fire missles should be the norm. I hope the next four years send us in that direction. I think we should talk to Iran and with the neocons on the run I have noticed a slight change in Iranian rhetoric. The sanctions have decreased their oil exports by fifty percent. That can be a great barganing tool in the future. The world is becomming a less warlike planet and that will do it more good than anything else. Engineering and scientific advancements will help the environmental damage and renuable energy is beginning to make a dent in hydrocarbon burning. The progress is slow but I think it is happening.We have enlightened leadership and it will make a better world. Bill
            • eduardathome
              If you read the news, the states of the Arab Spring, are leaning again towards dictatorship. Look at what Morsi in Egypt has done. He effectively made
              Message 6 of 10 , Jan 8, 2013
              • 0 Attachment
                If you read the news, the states of the Arab Spring, are leaning again
                towards dictatorship. Look at what Morsi in Egypt has done. He effectively
                made himself and his decisions immune from challenge and they are going
                ahead with the the constitution created by the Muslim Brotherhood majority.
                The Arab Spring is turning into an Arab Winter. We have not seen the end of
                troubles in that corner of the world.

                eduard




                -----Original Message-----
                From: William
                Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2013 6:14 PM
                To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [existlist] The kill list

                Now that we will have less crucial need to take mid east oil we might
                proceed with a more even handed approach to islamic states. They will have
                markets for their energy and better run economys might return some of the
                profits to the peoples of the region. The age of the dictators is coming to
                an end and the visit of the Egyptian president can be a chance to deal with
                elected leadership . I do not expect them to act like western liberals,
                they will be of the islamic brotherhood and like political organisations .
                As we leave their terratories they can have greater autonomy and perhaps
                will bear less hatred of the west. If they continue terrorist attacks
                against us we will still have the drones. As for Israel I do not know how
                they will fare. Obama and Hagel seem less inclined to get into war over
                Israel.
                I do not want a kill list and hope it is no longer needed.
                Negotiations,not hell fire missles should be the norm. I hope the next four
                years send us in that direction. I think we should talk to Iran and with the
                neocons on the run I have noticed a slight change in Iranian rhetoric.
                The sanctions have decreased their oil exports by fifty percent. That can
                be a great barganing tool in the future. The world is becomming a less
                warlike planet and that will do it more good than anything else.
                Engineering and scientific advancements will help the environmental damage
                and renuable energy is beginning to make a dent in hydrocarbon burning. The
                progress is slow but I think it is happening.We have enlightened leadership
                and it will make a better world. Bill



                ------------------------------------

                Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining nothing!

                Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
              • Mary
                There were many of us who objected to and were appalled by our mission in Vietnam. I m also disgusted by the fact that more Americans have been killed in
                Message 7 of 10 , Jan 8, 2013
                • 0 Attachment
                  There were many of us who objected to and were appalled by our mission in Vietnam. I'm also disgusted by the fact that more Americans have been killed in Chicago in one year than total U.S. fatalities in Afghanistan. Violence is a barbaric way for 'civilized' people to settle their differences. There are no excuses for the educated and prosperous in failing to find better methods of conflict resolution. It's not humanly possible to prevent conflict, but take reward, lack of consequences, and profit out of the mix, then those who want peace can make it happen. Waging war is a prime example of 'sustained incoherence'; you can't say it's unethical and then accept it.

                  Mary

                  --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
                  In a way that is what happened in Vietnam. We carpet bombed the country with B-52s and I doubt that many people felt uneasy about it. Thousands of Asians were killed, but our primary concern was how many more Americans were in the body count for the 6 o'clock news.

                  At the time, I was probably cheering the B-52s on, but with perfect hindsight, it just seems wrong.

                  > eduard
                  >
                  >
                  > Eduard, I find the terrorist enemy pure rogue. They are international out
                  > laws who kill civilians for effect. They support no rules of engagement not
                  > even a national identity. With such an adversary ,killing them efficiently
                  > is of first order. Drones are cheap and effective.
                  > I find the ethical argument to be it is unethical to waste our oun fighters
                  > unnecessarily. We did make that ethical error in Nam and paid for it. Of
                  > course we got in a land war in Asia and Mac Aurther had warned us about
                  > that.
                  > As to the police state possibility ,if you want privacy move to the
                  > country,off the grid. The populated areas will continue to see higher
                  > policing even as crime drops. Speed traps cameras and even drones will be
                  > used as long as they generate revinue. What does the stealth capabilities of
                  > drones do to the ability of aircraft to detect drones. Are they a greater
                  > danger?Bill
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: William
                  > Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2013 11:48 AM
                  > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: [existlist] Re: The kill list
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eduardathome wrote:
                  > >
                  > > I can think of 4 points against drones.
                  > >
                  > > The first is ethical or moral. We are moving towards the view that it is
                  > > Ok
                  > > to kill, as long as you do it at a distance. So what if we blow away some
                  > > citizens in the effort to do away with some Taliban leader. It's just
                  > > "them" over there.
                  > >
                  > > The second is our inability to wage a war with casualties. The main
                  > > reason
                  > > why the US lost the war in Vietnam was because the body count was given
                  > > each
                  > > night on the evening news. The terrorists know this. There were 158
                  > > Canadian soldiers who died in Afghanistan. When the first soldiers died,
                  > > the Prime Minister went to receive them back into Canada with pomp and
                  > > glory. As the toll mounted, the less the political will to continue.
                  > > They
                  > > renamed part of the 401 highway ... the Highway of Heros. People lined
                  > > the
                  > > highway waving Canadian flags as the coffins went by. A Taliban soldier
                  > > gets killed and they just go and find a replacement. A Canadian soldier
                  > > dies and there is more talk of withdrawing. And now we are gone. Soon
                  > > the
                  > > US will be gone. And the Taliban will move back into power and reopen
                  > > that
                  > > soccer stadium to shoot women who refuse to wear that over the body mask.
                  > > They will close the nice schools we built and chop off the arms of the
                  > > little girl students. And all the while we will cover our inability to
                  > > wage
                  > > war because some soldiers might die.
                  > >
                  > > The third is that drones will not be limited to war. They will be used by
                  > > Homeland Security and other enforcement organizations to spy on and
                  > > control
                  > > the US population. We are moving towards a police state if not there
                  > > already.
                  > >
                  > > The fourth is all these drones in US airspace that will compete with
                  > > aircraft. Of course, we will soon have commercial aircraft without pilots
                  > > ... it's cheaper.
                  > >
                  > > eduardathome
                  > > >
                  > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > From: William
                  > > Sent: Monday, January 07, 2013 3:03 PM
                  > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Subject: [existlist] The kill list
                  > >
                  > > Some years ago I predicted that robots,drones, would turn the tide of
                  > > battle
                  > > in the war on terrorism. I think we can say they have been highly
                  > > instrumental in our rolling back AlQueda and limiting US casualties.
                  > > The terrorists certainly do not advertise their identities or where
                  > > abouts.
                  > > Only highly classified intelligence methods uncover who and where these
                  > > killers are and where they are hiding. We cannot reveal these methods and
                  > > must rely on oversight bodies in the government to make decisions about
                  > > the
                  > > use of these covert weapons systems.
                  > > Now just war is a roman catholic engagement theory of war. Many of the
                  > > people who propose drone use ,including John Brennan, find drones
                  > > acceptable.
                  > > I have not been a proponent of most catholic doctrines but in this case I
                  > > find myself agreeing with the drone faction. My reasons are:They
                  > > work,They
                  > > limit collateral damage, They limit US casualties. The terrorists are
                  > > being
                  > > decimated by the drones and they truly fear them. I find it good to
                  > > terrorise a terrorist. It limits their ability to strike us and it is
                  > > cheaper than land patrolling and more stealthy than fighter bomber
                  > > strikes.
                  > > Obama and the air force just cancelled the f16 squadren here . It is
                  > > obvious
                  > > which way we will continue to prosecute what remains of the war. The
                  > > other
                  > > side is screaming especially the Packistani intelligence operatives who
                  > > consort with the Taliban and Alqueda . They were hiding Osama and they
                  > > tip
                  > > off the terrorists and thwart our efforts to sanction the terror forces.
                  > > The drones take them out of the loop and deny national protection to our
                  > > enemies.
                  > > So I am for the kill list even if it is confined to a few congressional
                  > > oversight people,the white house and the intelligence agencies to monitor
                  > > the conflict. In a covert war that is all you can let in the loop if you
                  > > wish to prevail.We have developed the key to breaking the back of this
                  > > deadly cohort,lets not throw it away. Bill
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ------------------------------------
                  > >
                  > > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining nothing!
                  > >
                  > > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining nothing!
                  >
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                  >
                • William
                  Mary,I remember my objection to Nam . I could never see any pressing national interest. Kennedy was said to be trying to halt the incursion and some say that
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jan 9, 2013
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                    Mary,I remember my objection to Nam . I could never see any pressing national interest. Kennedy was said to be trying to halt the incursion and some say that was part of the reason for the assination. Who knows that whole time is clouded in conspiracy theories. Certainly Johnson and then Nixon went hog wild and it seemed never ending. The protests,gas,clubs will never be forgotten.I still shudder when I think of it all and remember my induction . I volunteered but was scared shitless. I had it easy but knew so many that were permanently wounded,both mentally and physically. Then there were 58,000 dead.
                    When Robert Kennedy was gunned down I just retreated from public discussion and buried my head in my studies.I remember being happy when Johnson stepped down but the scourge of Nixon was even worse. I, like many, were clubbed in the streets and spit on in uniform. It was a terrible time and I just try to forget it. Yes ,Eduard, I agree there will be further troubles in the mid east but hopefully we will be most reluctant to intervene militarily. Islamic radicals and their killing of women tempt us to get involved. Those radicals are thugs and sending in troops is a poor response. Afgans are going to have a tough time but what is new. Obama is trying to get out early leaving a residual force to stop terrorists and train security forces. I doubt anyone thinks the place will be secure. I know we will retain the right to hit the radicals and I have to agree with that. No civilised country wants anything to do with Taliban and drug lords. It is the sink hole of the world and at best can only be contained. No one wants to go there ,no one wants to be there.
                    As to Egypt we have some leverage and we will have to learn to deal with whatever leadership sorts out . That countries internal problems are massive and they will fly apart without international aid.Ithink Obama and John Kerry will be most careful about any military intervention. If we can keep the peace makers in office then there will be a better outcome. Allow the right back in power and we will slip right back into intervention and war. The f16`s are flying less over my house. I like the peace and quiet. Soon they will be retired here, at least the drones are quiet. Bill
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