Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Assisted Suicide

Expand Messages
  • Mary
    Thanks, Bill, for your perspective. We have no control over when we come into the world and little more when it comes time to leave. I think the existential
    Message 1 of 8 , Nov 16, 2012
    • 0 Attachment
      Thanks, Bill, for your perspective. We have no control over when we come into the world and little more when it comes time to leave. I think the existential approach is for the state to stay out of both. Sanpedro's situation isn't common, and it must have been awful to implicate others in his plans. Having been completely paralyzed for a time I empathized with his decision. Advance directives make sense because we might be incapacitated suddenly and have our wills jacked by others.

      Mary

      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <vize9938@...> wrote:

      > Mary, I recently watched a program about assisted suicide. There are a good many more public stances than a few years ago. I see the situation as something like endlessly studying the civil war. It ends in such death and reiteration of pain and suffering that dealing with it alone causes pain.
      > I certainly agree it should be the persons choice but the trick is to not lose your personhood and retaining the ability to act. I see many times the loss of ability to act that suddenly come over especially old people. Then you are stuck in the throes of those misdirected authorities of religion and faith who will keep you alive at all costs. That is one sort of the living hell. The law is all over the map and no consensus of any kind is available.
      > The particular show I recently viewed told of a group that uses Helium . They say for many this is a way out. They say little about the process of dying with helium but admit there are involuntary flailing of the arms that necessatate restraint. That willful act on the part of both the dying and the living participants leaves great room for criminal investigation.I would not want my demise to ruin the life of any other person. I doubt we will ever see a resolution of the problem . I keep a large calibre hand gun as I could probably be sucsusful with no outside aid. I will not loan weapons for that purpose as the procurement would seem to guarantee some reflection on the propriety of the decision.Unfortunately with age I am exposed to more and more of these problamatic situations. I think you have to plan your own way out knowing it may be twarted by circumstance and the will of others. To be ready is about all one can hope for. Bill
      >
    • Jim
      Mary, Thank you for your beautiful and moving account of the life and death of Ramon Sampedro, intermingled with your own experience of spinal injury. It seems
      Message 2 of 8 , Nov 18, 2012
      • 0 Attachment
        Mary,

        Thank you for your beautiful and moving account of the life and death of Ramon Sampedro, intermingled with your own experience of spinal injury.

        It seems feeble to say "I agree with everything you write" as that response does not acknowledge your careful drawing of distinctions and appreciation of differing perspectives of these real-life situations.

        My own view – currently I am 56 years old and feel I am gradually approaching old age – is, like yours, that I would like to decide for myself when the appropriate time is for my life to end. I don't want to live "too long" when my enjoyment of life is gone and I am a burden on others, who have their own lives to lead.

        I would prefer a change in the UK law so that people who reach the point where they want to die (after careful reflection, and not on a whim) can apply for their own termination. This idea of applying for one's own death by filling in a Government form, has a slightly distasteful flavour to it, but here in England we cannot all be like Bill with his large calibre hand gun in his bottom drawer.

        I think the idea of "living wills" – regularly updated – stating that if I were to become incapacitated in body and mind such that I can no longer live a meaningful life, then my wish is for my life to be ended. Or if I retain a sound mind, I should be able to consent to my own death, in a clinic or at home, without the need to carry out the deed in secret or in violation of the law of the land.

        Jim
      • William
        ... Jim, this conservation has centered on extreme cases. Mary has a moderately extreme situation and she is still with us. I have a tolerable situation and
        Message 3 of 8 , Nov 18, 2012
        • 0 Attachment
          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Jim" <jjimstuart1@...> wrote:
          >
          > Mary,
          >
          > Thank you for your beautiful and moving account of the life and death of Ramon Sampedro, intermingled with your own experience of spinal injury.
          >
          > It seems feeble to say "I agree with everything you write" as that response does not acknowledge your careful drawing of distinctions and appreciation of differing perspectives of these real-life situations.
          >
          > My own view – currently I am 56 years old and feel I am gradually approaching old age – is, like yours, that I would like to decide for myself when the appropriate time is for my life to end. I don't want to live "too long" when my enjoyment of life is gone and I am a burden on others, who have their own lives to lead.
          >
          > I would prefer a change in the UK law so that people who reach the point where they want to die (after careful reflection, and not on a whim) can apply for their own termination. This idea of applying for one's own death by filling in a Government form, has a slightly distasteful flavour to it, but here in England we cannot all be like Bill with his large calibre hand gun in his bottom drawer.
          >
          > I think the idea of "living wills" – regularly updated – stating that if I were to become incapacitated in body and mind such that I can no longer live a meaningful life, then my wish is for my life to be ended. Or if I retain a sound mind, I should be able to consent to my own death, in a clinic or at home, without the need to carry out the deed in secret or in violation of the law of the land.
          >
          > Jim
          >
          Jim, this conservation has centered on extreme cases. Mary has a moderately extreme situation and she is still with us. I have a tolerable situation and have no desire to end my life. Most people die of pathology at an advanced age. They may be partially asssted by morphene or cessation of breathing assistance. I would opt for such an end but in extreme circumstances reserve the right to take more direct action. My guns are not there to destroy myself they are there to protect me from others. You could include in that protection a absolute bullwork against legal and religous banning of suicide. Were you in intractable pain how longwould you wait to sign and process that paperwork that allows you to die? At your present age all of this is remote if you are in relatively good health . That you care more for the rules imposed by others may change as you develope some appreciable pathology and become more uncomfortable with life in general. Eight years ago I came very near death and though very much in pain I had no thought of suicide. I fought like hell to survive and now have a nearly normal life for those of my age.
          This is perhaps the most individualistic moment in our lives as we all come to it from different sets of circumstance.I would resrve the greatest set of options . That does not mean I am purchasing my restraints and helium tank and hood. I have scraped the brains and skull fragments off the wall after a shotgun suicide. Yes it was ugly but I felt relieved that the poor sick bastard got away from his pain. I fear you would have offered him a form to fill out and offered his pain up to the bureaucracy.I would rather puke cleaning the gore off the wall than to stand by and assist in continued suffereng. By the way I was in the funeral home business and did not assist in the deed. When you have a near death experience you may have a change of attitude . Then again you have always been a legalist and may remain true to your code. It is your pain and suffering until you can do nothing about it. You are just making it easier to turn yourself over to the tormentors. I wish us all a smooth painless end and will do what I can to make mine so. Bill
        • Jim
          Bill, Thanks for your reply. You make a good point. I don t want to do anything which makes it easier for the state to decide who lives or who dies. As you and
          Message 4 of 8 , Nov 18, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            Bill,

            Thanks for your reply.

            You make a good point. I don't want to do anything which makes it easier for the state to decide who lives or who dies. As you and Mary argue, it should be up to the individual concerned to make the decision for his or her self.

            I also acknowledge that you and Mary have more right to speak on this subject than I do, as your own experiences of serious injury and illness, and your more advanced ages, give you more of an insight into the issues involved.

            Jim
          • William
            ... .
            Message 5 of 8 , Nov 18, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Jim" <jjimstuart1@...> wrote:
              >
              > Bill,
              >
              > Thanks for your reply.
              >
              > You make a good point. I don't want to do anything which makes it easier for the state to decide who lives or who dies. As you and Mary argue, it should be up to the individual concerned to make the decision for his or her self.
              >
              > I also acknowledge that you and Mary have more right to speak on this subject than I do, as your own experiences of serious injury and illness, and your more advanced ages, give you more of an insight into the issues involved.
              >
              > Jim
              >Jim, that is a great attitude. I am watching a show about a group of mountaneers in their attempts to climb the sharkes tooth in the Himalayas. I climbed for seven years and got five peaks. It would seem the opposite of suicide but in many ways they share similar attitudes. The climbers need a level of existance that pushes at absolute survival . They will pay the risk of death to live at such a high level. The suicide victim refuses to live at such a dismal level of existance. From the extreme mountaineer to the terminally ill it is attitude that rules. The will to take great risks may be exceeded by the will to self destruct. I recently spoke with a career officer who is slowly degrading from a wasting syndrome. He is returning to religion to bide time but does not truly believe . he cannot adide the gun but sees it a growing probability. At the present time he just cannot fathom pulling the trigger. I consider that a greater terror than attempting a vertical pitch on some deadly peak. The readiness is all is what Patton advised quoting Frederic the Great and you are beginning the process of being ready. Have a great day and a joyful life. Bill
              .
            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.