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Re: Suicide Vs, Crashes

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  • Mary
    Thanks for asking, Bill. Camus created a philosophy of the absurd in order to accommodate our having to live in the tension between desire and death. For him
    Message 1 of 14 , Oct 1, 2012
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      Thanks for asking, Bill.

      Camus created a philosophy of the absurd in order to accommodate our having to live in the tension between desire and death. For him suicide and ideological murders were equally wrong. To desire death was a betrayal of reason, if not the very end of it. Suicide was a contradiction of the absurdity of death. Death is absurd because we desire life. Trying to understand death is absurd-so let it remain so. All according to Camus, that is.

      Although it's true we can't comprehend death, we can seek to know its force in our lives. Put in more philosophical terms, Camus flirted with the concepts of jouissance and its seeming opposite, the death drive. For animals these are one in their nature. With humans however, thought as reason splits or negotiates between the two. Man is conscious of the pull between will and surrender, appetite and denial, jouissance and the death drive.

      Bryan mentions de Sade who sought to avoid reason and make these two drives one again, affecting a return to our animal nature where suffering and death, or its threat, are one with desire. Sade uses reason to eliminate reason but in the process makes desire and death the same. The subtle but critical difference with the suicide is that his contemplation or reasoning about death itself keeps desire separate; he keeps reason in play, making him more authentically human. The two drives act on one another, making reason possible. It's not the blindness of creation-annihilation, but consciousness.

      So it's not simply a matter of one's will becoming feeble or even trying to eliminate reason between the double drives of desire and death. It's that thought as reason intervenes to negotiate the possibility of freedom. The Marquis' freedom is bogus because he's a slave to desire and death as one. The suicide's freedom is reason itself.

      Thought is a human problem, but Camus advocated the absurdity of struggling with it. Everything I've read about or by him leads me to imagine him at his dear mother's deathbed, begging the doctor to administer a lethal dose of morphine to end her suffering, if she so desired.

      The law acts to help individuals avoid their existential responsibility. We need less legislation controlling birth and death, not more. In order to advance reason we need to actually exercise it in these essential dilemmas, not delegate it.

      Mary

      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <vize9938@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Jim" <jjimstuart1@> wrote:
      > >
      > > All,
      > >
      > > I have found this thread stimulating and thought-provoking.
      > >
      > > There are a number of issues. There is the question Bill asks as to why suicide rates seem higher than in the past. Then the question of whether suicide and/or assisted suicide should be made legal.
      > >
      > > I tend to agree with Bill that an individual should be able to choose for himself when he thinks it is the right time to end his life. This seems to me to be a basic freedom all citizens should have. Generally it is only people with a religious outlook who oppose this freedom.
      > >
      > > However as Irvin says, the state should try to protect people from making a rash decision that they may regret later. One way to do this, in my view, would be to say people have to apply for legal suicide or an assisted suicide, and there should be a period for reflection (perhaps one hundred days?) in which they can receive counselling to determine if they really want to end their lives, or, alternatively, it is just a temporary feeling which may change upon more reflection.
      > >
      > > Of course cases vary greatly. To me, a person with a terminal illness which is just going to get worse and worse, may be being rational in wanting to end their live before their disease completely takes over. Similarly a very old person who sees themselves as gradually losing their physical and mental capacities.
      > >
      > > With young, healthy people, who, for whatever reason, are suffering from depression, there is more chance for healthcare professionals to talk the person out of their suicidal tendency.
      > >
      > > Jim
      > >Jim, I have a general agreement with your comments. I have less fear of reprecussions of punishment after I am dead. I would try to keep others out of any conspiracy and let the authorities throw lots for my garments after the fact. There is a place where you do not have to care and for me death is it.
      > This is an authoritarian vs free life argument at its base and in this one dying will win out. All the religion and authority bows to the conqueror worm. Imortality gives way to finitude and the hard facts of a short existance play out with our animal selves.
      > I like the argument because it puts the fat heads of faith in a position where they have to think about the reality of final ends. Most just lean back on stupid faith but on ocassion one of them looks at reality and acts human rather than angelic. As Jackson Brown says,"In the end there is one dance youll do Alone" Bill
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <vize9938@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "irvhal" <i99hj@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > Bill,
      > > > >
      > > > > There's much conflated here, though upon reflection I think you'll agree there's more to suicide than politics, or stated differently, that suicide isn't necessarily reduced to political economy. A quick look at suicide rates by country for 2011 by the World Health Organization lists the United States at 38th (well behind South Korea whose 1st or Cuba whose 31st, but ahead of Haiti whose at 107). Camus opened "The Myth of Sisyphus" with his assertion that "[t]here is but one truly serious philosophical problem, and that is suicide." Perhaps, to which I would add, if one is clinically depressed, or where death is otherwise imminent. Elsewise Camus bespeaks an egotism that implies an uber rationality over Being, and a disregard for the will to power for survival. Hence suicide is atypical, and empathy beckons intervention when confronted. But where the atypical is chronic, demise (however sad, as in the case of Hemingway), will likely have its way.
      > > > >
      > >
      >
    • William
      ... I knew a nurse who would turn up the morphine during her break so as not to have to care for the final mess the dead often make. It seems so big and
      Message 2 of 14 , Oct 1, 2012
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        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@...> wrote:
        >
        > Thanks for asking, Bill.
        >
        > Camus created a philosophy of the absurd in order to accommodate our having to live in the tension between desire and death. For him suicide and ideological murders were equally wrong. To desire death was a betrayal of reason, if not the very end of it. Suicide was a contradiction of the absurdity of death. Death is absurd because we desire life. Trying to understand death is absurd-so let it remain so. All according to Camus, that is.
        >
        > Although it's true we can't comprehend death, we can seek to know its force in our lives. Put in more philosophical terms, Camus flirted with the concepts of jouissance and its seeming opposite, the death drive. For animals these are one in their nature. With humans however, thought as reason splits or negotiates between the two. Man is conscious of the pull between will and surrender, appetite and denial, jouissance and the death drive.
        >
        > Bryan mentions de Sade who sought to avoid reason and make these two drives one again, affecting a return to our animal nature where suffering and death, or its threat, are one with desire. Sade uses reason to eliminate reason but in the process makes desire and death the same. The subtle but critical difference with the suicide is that his contemplation or reasoning about death itself keeps desire separate; he keeps reason in play, making him more authentically human. The two drives act on one another, making reason possible. It's not the blindness of creation-annihilation, but consciousness.
        >
        > So it's not simply a matter of one's will becoming feeble or even trying to eliminate reason between the double drives of desire and death. It's that thought as reason intervenes to negotiate the possibility of freedom. The Marquis' freedom is bogus because he's a slave to desire and death as one. The suicide's freedom is reason itself.
        >
        > Thought is a human problem, but Camus advocated the absurdity of struggling with it. Everything I've read about or by him leads me to imagine him at his dear mother's deathbed, begging the doctor to administer a lethal dose of morphine to end her suffering, if she so desired.
        >
        > The law acts to help individuals avoid their existential responsibility. We need less legislation controlling birth and death, not more. In order to advance reason we need to actually exercise it in these essential dilemmas, not delegate it.
        >
        > Mary
        > Mary, It is the arrogance of the people who think themselves of a higher order who wish to hijack human rights regarding death. The MD who portends the diminution of pain but prolongs suffereng, the priest who claims to know gods will but only knows the funarial stipend, the undertaker who wants an intact corpse as it takes less time to prepair, all these authorities have motives that relate very little to the dying person.
        I knew a nurse who would turn up the morphine during her break so as not to have to care for the final mess the dead often make. It seems so big and personal and hyper real to the one passing on but often those in charge find it just a job. If you make your living in the business it becomes just a business. I know I was inside the funeral business and the undertakers did not morn,they charged and looked somber. Looking happy would get you fired but many of them carried a flask to supress any real feelings.
        By the time you have any time to exercise any philosophical motives in death you are probably too far gone to have any power. Just where is the living will stashed? In practical dying once you are unconscious you are left with no will,no power. Your dying philosophy will be that of your care givers and they will have it their way. If you really want your impremater on the act you risk the problem of underdosing with a drug or surviving a crash.If you want that, a shotgun is for you.
        As you say Mary we are truly ill equipped to deal with death and leaving it to the pros may seem cruel but may be more efficient. I doubt I will manage to orcestrate my will in death but I bluff and bluster such.
        I have come to care less and less about it as over and over I see it happens in strange and uncontrolled ways in others. One moment you are alive and the next moment you are dead but it seems how you have lived your life has more to do with the moment than how you planned your death. The chronic smoker dies of lung cancer and the drunk dies of hepatitis. It isn`t justice it is just cause and effect.
        So I see you right when you hypothesize how Camus would be at a death bed. Psychatrists never trust dentists with pain issues they think us unfeeling. I think I am more afraid of pain than responsive to philosophical matters. We will not know until the time and then we will never know what we did. Bill
        > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <vize9938@> wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Jim" <jjimstuart1@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > All,
        > > >
        > > > I have found this thread stimulating and thought-provoking.
        > > >
        > > > There are a number of issues. There is the question Bill asks as to why suicide rates seem higher than in the past. Then the question of whether suicide and/or assisted suicide should be made legal.
        > > >
        > > > I tend to agree with Bill that an individual should be able to choose for himself when he thinks it is the right time to end his life. This seems to me to be a basic freedom all citizens should have. Generally it is only people with a religious outlook who oppose this freedom.
        > > >
        > > > However as Irvin says, the state should try to protect people from making a rash decision that they may regret later. One way to do this, in my view, would be to say people have to apply for legal suicide or an assisted suicide, and there should be a period for reflection (perhaps one hundred days?) in which they can receive counselling to determine if they really want to end their lives, or, alternatively, it is just a temporary feeling which may change upon more reflection.
        > > >
        > > > Of course cases vary greatly. To me, a person with a terminal illness which is just going to get worse and worse, may be being rational in wanting to end their live before their disease completely takes over. Similarly a very old person who sees themselves as gradually losing their physical and mental capacities.
        > > >
        > > > With young, healthy people, who, for whatever reason, are suffering from depression, there is more chance for healthcare professionals to talk the person out of their suicidal tendency.
        > > >
        > > > Jim
        > > >Jim, I have a general agreement with your comments. I have less fear of reprecussions of punishment after I am dead. I would try to keep others out of any conspiracy and let the authorities throw lots for my garments after the fact. There is a place where you do not have to care and for me death is it.
        > > This is an authoritarian vs free life argument at its base and in this one dying will win out. All the religion and authority bows to the conqueror worm. Imortality gives way to finitude and the hard facts of a short existance play out with our animal selves.
        > > I like the argument because it puts the fat heads of faith in a position where they have to think about the reality of final ends. Most just lean back on stupid faith but on ocassion one of them looks at reality and acts human rather than angelic. As Jackson Brown says,"In the end there is one dance youll do Alone" Bill
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <vize9938@> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "irvhal" <i99hj@> wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Bill,
        > > > > >
        > > > > > There's much conflated here, though upon reflection I think you'll agree there's more to suicide than politics, or stated differently, that suicide isn't necessarily reduced to political economy. A quick look at suicide rates by country for 2011 by the World Health Organization lists the United States at 38th (well behind South Korea whose 1st or Cuba whose 31st, but ahead of Haiti whose at 107). Camus opened "The Myth of Sisyphus" with his assertion that "[t]here is but one truly serious philosophical problem, and that is suicide." Perhaps, to which I would add, if one is clinically depressed, or where death is otherwise imminent. Elsewise Camus bespeaks an egotism that implies an uber rationality over Being, and a disregard for the will to power for survival. Hence suicide is atypical, and empathy beckons intervention when confronted. But where the atypical is chronic, demise (however sad, as in the case of Hemingway), will likely have its way.
        > > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • bryan.junius
        Bill,Mary, et al, This thread has produced some very cerebral discourse on the subject. I am very much in agreement with alot of the commentary. I think it is
        Message 3 of 14 , Oct 2, 2012
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          Bill,Mary, et al,

          This thread has produced some very cerebral discourse on the subject. I am very much in agreement with alot of the commentary.

          I think it is a shame as well these days that we don't give more focus to the younger teen-agers who may have ideas of suicide because of personal problems in school, drugs, alcohol abuse, or sexual abuse - the subject seems so taboo these days - and people react with such animosity as if you said a curse word. I think the hyper-sensitivity of our country seems to be a dialectic of itself, the contradiction, the jouissance of Lacan, the differance of Derrida - If it wasn't for 'Reaganomics' in the early 80's destroying mental health clinics and privatizing them into businesses, we could of seen this coming a long time ago. Possibly avoiding the acts of Columbine, the Colorado movie massacre, the Virginia tech shooter, the shootings in Fort Hood, and even the Oklahoma bombing. We address suicide attempts as being hostile and we imprison them with rapists and gang bangers - homeless people are seen as examples of indigents who make no contributions to society, however, have not committed to the act of self-suicide and we treat them shamefully and oppressively - almost begging them to DIE. The injustice of not making certain choices seems like treachery while others are just downright despicable.

          regards,

          Bryan

          The right to live is an individual freedom that society implores

          Mental health today is non-ex

          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <vize9938@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Thanks for asking, Bill.
          > >
          > > Camus created a philosophy of the absurd in order to accommodate our having to live in the tension between desire and death. For him suicide and ideological murders were equally wrong. To desire death was a betrayal of reason, if not the very end of it. Suicide was a contradiction of the absurdity of death. Death is absurd because we desire life. Trying to understand death is absurd-so let it remain so. All according to Camus, that is.
          > >
          > > Although it's true we can't comprehend death, we can seek to know its force in our lives. Put in more philosophical terms, Camus flirted with the concepts of jouissance and its seeming opposite, the death drive. For animals these are one in their nature. With humans however, thought as reason splits or negotiates between the two. Man is conscious of the pull between will and surrender, appetite and denial, jouissance and the death drive.
          > >
          > > Bryan mentions de Sade who sought to avoid reason and make these two drives one again, affecting a return to our animal nature where suffering and death, or its threat, are one with desire. Sade uses reason to eliminate reason but in the process makes desire and death the same. The subtle but critical difference with the suicide is that his contemplation or reasoning about death itself keeps desire separate; he keeps reason in play, making him more authentically human. The two drives act on one another, making reason possible. It's not the blindness of creation-annihilation, but consciousness.
          > >
          > > So it's not simply a matter of one's will becoming feeble or even trying to eliminate reason between the double drives of desire and death. It's that thought as reason intervenes to negotiate the possibility of freedom. The Marquis' freedom is bogus because he's a slave to desire and death as one. The suicide's freedom is reason itself.
          > >
          > > Thought is a human problem, but Camus advocated the absurdity of struggling with it. Everything I've read about or by him leads me to imagine him at his dear mother's deathbed, begging the doctor to administer a lethal dose of morphine to end her suffering, if she so desired.
          > >
          > > The law acts to help individuals avoid their existential responsibility. We need less legislation controlling birth and death, not more. In order to advance reason we need to actually exercise it in these essential dilemmas, not delegate it.
          > >
          > > Mary
          > > Mary, It is the arrogance of the people who think themselves of a higher order who wish to hijack human rights regarding death. The MD who portends the diminution of pain but prolongs suffereng, the priest who claims to know gods will but only knows the funarial stipend, the undertaker who wants an intact corpse as it takes less time to prepair, all these authorities have motives that relate very little to the dying person.
          > I knew a nurse who would turn up the morphine during her break so as not to have to care for the final mess the dead often make. It seems so big and personal and hyper real to the one passing on but often those in charge find it just a job. If you make your living in the business it becomes just a business. I know I was inside the funeral business and the undertakers did not morn,they charged and looked somber. Looking happy would get you fired but many of them carried a flask to supress any real feelings.
          > By the time you have any time to exercise any philosophical motives in death you are probably too far gone to have any power. Just where is the living will stashed? In practical dying once you are unconscious you are left with no will,no power. Your dying philosophy will be that of your care givers and they will have it their way. If you really want your impremater on the act you risk the problem of underdosing with a drug or surviving a crash.If you want that, a shotgun is for you.
          > As you say Mary we are truly ill equipped to deal with death and leaving it to the pros may seem cruel but may be more efficient. I doubt I will manage to orcestrate my will in death but I bluff and bluster such.
          > I have come to care less and less about it as over and over I see it happens in strange and uncontrolled ways in others. One moment you are alive and the next moment you are dead but it seems how you have lived your life has more to do with the moment than how you planned your death. The chronic smoker dies of lung cancer and the drunk dies of hepatitis. It isn`t justice it is just cause and effect.
          > So I see you right when you hypothesize how Camus would be at a death bed. Psychatrists never trust dentists with pain issues they think us unfeeling. I think I am more afraid of pain than responsive to philosophical matters. We will not know until the time and then we will never know what we did. Bill
          > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <vize9938@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Jim" <jjimstuart1@> wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > All,
          > > > >
          > > > > I have found this thread stimulating and thought-provoking.
          > > > >
          > > > > There are a number of issues. There is the question Bill asks as to why suicide rates seem higher than in the past. Then the question of whether suicide and/or assisted suicide should be made legal.
          > > > >
          > > > > I tend to agree with Bill that an individual should be able to choose for himself when he thinks it is the right time to end his life. This seems to me to be a basic freedom all citizens should have. Generally it is only people with a religious outlook who oppose this freedom.
          > > > >
          > > > > However as Irvin says, the state should try to protect people from making a rash decision that they may regret later. One way to do this, in my view, would be to say people have to apply for legal suicide or an assisted suicide, and there should be a period for reflection (perhaps one hundred days?) in which they can receive counselling to determine if they really want to end their lives, or, alternatively, it is just a temporary feeling which may change upon more reflection.
          > > > >
          > > > > Of course cases vary greatly. To me, a person with a terminal illness which is just going to get worse and worse, may be being rational in wanting to end their live before their disease completely takes over. Similarly a very old person who sees themselves as gradually losing their physical and mental capacities.
          > > > >
          > > > > With young, healthy people, who, for whatever reason, are suffering from depression, there is more chance for healthcare professionals to talk the person out of their suicidal tendency.
          > > > >
          > > > > Jim
          > > > >Jim, I have a general agreement with your comments. I have less fear of reprecussions of punishment after I am dead. I would try to keep others out of any conspiracy and let the authorities throw lots for my garments after the fact. There is a place where you do not have to care and for me death is it.
          > > > This is an authoritarian vs free life argument at its base and in this one dying will win out. All the religion and authority bows to the conqueror worm. Imortality gives way to finitude and the hard facts of a short existance play out with our animal selves.
          > > > I like the argument because it puts the fat heads of faith in a position where they have to think about the reality of final ends. Most just lean back on stupid faith but on ocassion one of them looks at reality and acts human rather than angelic. As Jackson Brown says,"In the end there is one dance youll do Alone" Bill
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <vize9938@> wrote:
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "irvhal" <i99hj@> wrote:
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Bill,
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > There's much conflated here, though upon reflection I think you'll agree there's more to suicide than politics, or stated differently, that suicide isn't necessarily reduced to political economy. A quick look at suicide rates by country for 2011 by the World Health Organization lists the United States at 38th (well behind South Korea whose 1st or Cuba whose 31st, but ahead of Haiti whose at 107). Camus opened "The Myth of Sisyphus" with his assertion that "[t]here is but one truly serious philosophical problem, and that is suicide." Perhaps, to which I would add, if one is clinically depressed, or where death is otherwise imminent. Elsewise Camus bespeaks an egotism that implies an uber rationality over Being, and a disregard for the will to power for survival. Hence suicide is atypical, and empathy beckons intervention when confronted. But where the atypical is chronic, demise (however sad, as in the case of Hemingway), will likely have its way.
          > > > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • Mary
          Bill, A living will or advance directive is a sensible method of imposing your will on how your final health care, legal and financial matters will be handled.
          Message 4 of 14 , Oct 2, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            Bill,

            A living will or advance directive is a sensible method of imposing your will on how your final health care, legal and financial matters will be handled. If you're suddenly incapacitated or die suddenly these are settled. You can include a do not resuscitate provision as well. I moved from one state to another, so I have to create a new one , soon. I've been procrastinating. I'm not anticipating any squabbling over my bones, but I want to make sure my more sensitive offspring are accommodated. These matters won't concern me then.

            Last week I watched the film "Monsieur Lahzar" and was impressed with how the writers handled the topic of suicide. For whatever the reason, a teacher hangs herself in her classroom while the children are out at recess. Most of the children are traumatized. The replacement teacher, a widower applying for permanent residency status, was very attuned to their suppressed anger, but the administration wanted to handle it differently. It seemed an selfish and cruel act and Lahzar agreed.

            Mary


            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <vize9938@...> wrote:

            I doubt I will manage to orcestrate my will in death but I bluff and bluster such. I have come to care less and less about it as over and over I see it happens in strange and uncontrolled ways in others. One moment you are alive and the next moment you are dead but it seems how you have lived your life has more to do with the moment than how you planned your death.
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