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  • Dick.
    Maybe? [ I am forty seven and I had near death experience three years ago. I was in green pastures through which there was a river with even greener pastures
    Message 1 of 15 , Sep 19, 2012
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      Maybe?



      [ I am forty seven and I had near death experience three years ago. I
      was in green pastures through which there was a river with even greener
      pastures on the other side of the bridge. I was about to cross the
      bridge but got an understanding from what seemed like a person on the
      other side of that bridge that I could not go on and that I had to come
      back and get on with my life. It was real. Yet you talk of going into
      death and yet coming back here into the same life. Maybe there are
      different modes of death. ]



      Maybe does not figure in my life, either I know something or I don't
      know it. I read hundreds if not thousands of NDE's over a twenty
      year period, they are all different, yet with similarities. But they are
      NOT death experiences, they are near death experiences. When you are
      GONE and exist no more than THAT is death. That is what happened. GONE.
      Was no more. Bring me a person if you can find one who has known death
      and we will talk. I have never found one yet who had not also found that
      eternal domain on the other side of it. But the person that exists
      there, and although still ME, is nothing like a human being that exists
      here. IPSO. It is (I AM) the first emanation of cognitive life. It is
      primordial conscious existence. It is going home. But there is more than
      the beginning.



      MAYBE there is another kind of death. Highly probably I would imagine.
      But I don't KNOW it. It is a maybe as far as I am concerned. MAYBE
      there is just a sleep of oblivion from which one never wakes up. But IF
      that were SO then nobody would ever know it. You cannot KNOW not
      existing. So there would be nobody to talk of it.



      However, this mystic death is not like falling asleep, it is the
      experience of ANNIHILATION, the experience of being extinguished. You
      are there while being kind of melted down. NOT the nicest experience
      that one could live through. But what is on the other side if it is
      worth it. Mystical experience and moving on IS NOT all fun and games.
      But how could you turn a one pint jug into a two pint jug other than to
      melt it down and start again in a new mould?



      What you lived through was an introverted ARKON image emanation, a
      common psychic archetype. And it has taught you something has it not. Be
      grateful for that. But, as I say, bring me the person who has known NOT
      existing and we will chat.



      MAYBE I will win the lottery today. And maybe not. MAYBE has no part to
      play in my life. I take what comes and have to get on with it. But, for
      what it is worth to you then that mystic death and resurrection event
      and then coming back here again after all that into the same lifetime
      does seem to be quite rare. It was quite a shock too. But you get use to
      it. But as I say, it is only one more hurdle to climb, there is MORE.
      There is the uniting of Eternity with Time. THAT will rattle your
      marbles. But that is a bridge too far yet and they will not know what
      the frig you are talking about. Such is life here eh. But I give you a
      little tip – go and ask the buddhists and the gnostics, for they
      know EVERYTHING ;- )))) Or they make be-lief that they do :- )))) They
      are WORSE than academics from Oxbridge and other such halls of academia.
      A little learning eh :- )))) By the way, if you write books then you
      will learn a lot by way of feed-back. Learn and Grow – assuming that
      you want to go on further that is.



      Thanks for your story.



      Dick Richardson







      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Bryan Junius
      When I was young I used to walk the train tracks in Queens, sometimes as far as Little Neck. The railroad tracks i use to walk were not the busy type; a train
      Message 2 of 15 , Sep 19, 2012
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        When I was young I used to walk the train tracks in Queens, sometimes as far as Little Neck. The railroad tracks i use to walk were not the busy type; a train maybe every 45 minutes to an hour. I can still remember the train conductors yelling at me, "Hey kids! Get off the damn tracks!! You'll get killed!!"

        These trains use to commute people back and and forth from Flushing Queens out toward Great Neck which was much further and right after Little Neck. Use to have a friend go with me, his name was Frankie and 5 years older than me at the time. Sometimes he like to bully people because of his big build, even me now and again. Why we hung out every now and then still alludes me today.

        We would get up real early in the morning to do this because the hike was kind of long. We would bring a small backpack, maybe a few sandwiches to snack on and some drinks.

        When we got to our destination. It was like a bay, and a small reef type beach with white-beige sand. We threw rocks out there. Built a small camp fire. Dug up small piss clams (thats what we used to call them as they were cleaning out their penis like stems, or we would accidentally sit on them as they pee'd out.)

        When the afternoon came around we would start to pack things up and head on back the direction we came from. I remember the day being warm and pleasant. No jacket needed that day. The tracks were wooded and rocks all over the place. I was known to have great balance back then. Frankie and I were walking side by side that day. At some point and time Frankie offered me a life saver; the spearimint kind. I guess it was at this point I reached for the candy being offered and started to fall out of my hand. Not paying much attention that i was on the left of Frankie, which meant i was by the third rail and only a wooden beam worn down by weather was between me and it; so as i reached with my left hand for the lifesaver, I tripped and strangely enough, my arm goes right between the wooden beam and the third rail. That moment i became electrified like no coherent words today could describe that one event. I jolted. I buckled. Shaking like riding a bronco. I was magnetized to that rail. I remember thinking, painfully, I am going to die...here and now. I remember my friend trying to reach for me and grab me with his bare hands to pull me by my shirt collar but i could sense the fear in him and he quickly backed away and started walking away - creepily enough, I had always sworn he started whistling as he done so.

        There I am. Waiting for my heart to explode. The volts pouring thru my body like a live wire. The sheer intensity i was feeling like i was on fire from the inside. There is no escape from this death grip im in, I had thought. As Frankie is walking away, my head jolts right. I have no control of my muscles as they spasm like a tornado. In that split second, what seemed like eternity, something glowed, then something opened. It was like a hole in the air. The purest white void. A smell in the air. I thought it was me starting to burn. The void grew and flickered. Then something orangish-like glow. No. It was something else. Cause it was walking toward or gliding to me. It had a body but it was just an outline. It had wings i thought.

        Then it entered me. It was like something took over. My right arm. The free one. It quickly snapped up and reached for my left arm. The one that was deathbolted to the third rail and yanked it out with some unknown strength that i could not do.

        Then i felt a release. It was gone. I was still in shock touching myself all over. Wondering if i was dead or what just happened. I looked at myself. My hands. My arms. No burns. No marks. My heart still beating rapidly. Can still see. At that point I started crying like the clouds opened up. Frankie was in the distance. I could still see him. Then I ran after him as far as my feet could carry me. When I did catch up with him and grabbed him he screamed bloody murder, "Don't touch me!!!!Don't touch me!!!" He was freaked out wondering if i was a ghost or the walking dead. He asked me what happened. Never to bother ask me if i was alright. But i showed him my hands. There was no burns or anything and i was not dead...at all. He was surprised by that. I don't know how many volts or amps were going through me that day. I've heard generally a third rail carries about 60 volts across it enough to blow up tin like metal. The strangest thing, was not just leaving the terrifying experience intact, it was how i got out. So if there are things out there living in different domains, I have a reluctant ponderance to agree on those terms.

        And yes. This is a true story. Implausible? Yes. Would i believe it if you told me? No.

        Thanks for listening.

        .--- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Dick." <richard@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > Maybe?
        >
        >
        >
        > [ I am forty seven and I had near death experience three years ago. I
        > was in green pastures through which there was a river with even greener
        > pastures on the other side of the bridge. I was about to cross the
        > bridge but got an understanding from what seemed like a person on the
        > other side of that bridge that I could not go on and that I had to come
        > back and get on with my life. It was real. Yet you talk of going into
        > death and yet coming back here into the same life. Maybe there are
        > different modes of death. ]
        >
        >
        >
        > Maybe does not figure in my life, either I know something or I don't
        > know it. I read hundreds if not thousands of NDE's over a twenty
        > year period, they are all different, yet with similarities. But they are
        > NOT death experiences, they are near death experiences. When you are
        > GONE and exist no more than THAT is death. That is what happened. GONE.
        > Was no more. Bring me a person if you can find one who has known death
        > and we will talk. I have never found one yet who had not also found that
        > eternal domain on the other side of it. But the person that exists
        > there, and although still ME, is nothing like a human being that exists
        > here. IPSO. It is (I AM) the first emanation of cognitive life. It is
        > primordial conscious existence. It is going home. But there is more than
        > the beginning.
        >
        >
        >
        > MAYBE there is another kind of death. Highly probably I would imagine.
        > But I don't KNOW it. It is a maybe as far as I am concerned. MAYBE
        > there is just a sleep of oblivion from which one never wakes up. But IF
        > that were SO then nobody would ever know it. You cannot KNOW not
        > existing. So there would be nobody to talk of it.
        >
        >
        >
        > However, this mystic death is not like falling asleep, it is the
        > experience of ANNIHILATION, the experience of being extinguished. You
        > are there while being kind of melted down. NOT the nicest experience
        > that one could live through. But what is on the other side if it is
        > worth it. Mystical experience and moving on IS NOT all fun and games.
        > But how could you turn a one pint jug into a two pint jug other than to
        > melt it down and start again in a new mould?
        >
        >
        >
        > What you lived through was an introverted ARKON image emanation, a
        > common psychic archetype. And it has taught you something has it not. Be
        > grateful for that. But, as I say, bring me the person who has known NOT
        > existing and we will chat.
        >
        >
        >
        > MAYBE I will win the lottery today. And maybe not. MAYBE has no part to
        > play in my life. I take what comes and have to get on with it. But, for
        > what it is worth to you then that mystic death and resurrection event
        > and then coming back here again after all that into the same lifetime
        > does seem to be quite rare. It was quite a shock too. But you get use to
        > it. But as I say, it is only one more hurdle to climb, there is MORE.
        > There is the uniting of Eternity with Time. THAT will rattle your
        > marbles. But that is a bridge too far yet and they will not know what
        > the frig you are talking about. Such is life here eh. But I give you a
        > little tip – go and ask the buddhists and the gnostics, for they
        > know EVERYTHING ;- )))) Or they make be-lief that they do :- )))) They
        > are WORSE than academics from Oxbridge and other such halls of academia.
        > A little learning eh :- )))) By the way, if you write books then you
        > will learn a lot by way of feed-back. Learn and Grow – assuming that
        > you want to go on further that is.
        >
        >
        >
        > Thanks for your story.
        >
        >
        >
        > Dick Richardson
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Peter ciccariello
        Of all the things I do on the internet, I think reading and following the posts on Existlist is the most baffling for me. I have come to consider, in my inner
        Message 3 of 15 , Sep 19, 2012
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          Of all the things I do on the internet, I think reading and following the
          posts on Existlist is the most baffling for me. I have come to consider, in
          my inner silence, these disembodied voices as something closely resembling
          friends. Although reactively dismissing some and cherishing others, it
          above all else keeps me somehow�well� in the conversation.

          Bryan� your post intrigued me on several levels. First, being so very
          familiar with that train line having traveled it decades ago every day, the
          LIRR from Port Washington to Manhattan holds a special fascination to me.
          My younger brother in fact, did what you and your friends did, every day
          after school was out. Thankfully none ever experienced an incident like you
          did that day.



          I am curious as to how to see or process your experience, and NDE for that
          matter through the lens of Existentianlism. Alittle googling brought up
          this thread from 2008. I guess we have all been here before?



          *[existlist] Re: Relevance of NDEs to Existentialism*

          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist/message/43855


          - Peter



          ____________________


          On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 12:52 PM, Bryan Junius <bryan.junius@...>wrote:

          > **
          >
          >
          > When I was young I used to walk the train tracks in Queens, sometimes as
          > far as Little Neck. The railroad tracks i use to walk were not the busy
          > type; a train maybe every 45 minutes to an hour. I can still remember the
          > train conductors yelling at me, "Hey kids! Get off the damn tracks!! You'll
          > get killed!!"
          >
          > These trains use to commute people back and and forth from Flushing Queens
          > out toward Great Neck which was much further and right after Little Neck.
          > Use to have a friend go with me, his name was Frankie and 5 years older
          > than me at the time. Sometimes he like to bully people because of his big
          > build, even me now and again. Why we hung out every now and then still
          > alludes me today.
          >
          > We would get up real early in the morning to do this because the hike was
          > kind of long. We would bring a small backpack, maybe a few sandwiches to
          > snack on and some drinks.
          >
          > When we got to our destination. It was like a bay, and a small reef type
          > beach with white-beige sand. We threw rocks out there. Built a small camp
          > fire. Dug up small piss clams (thats what we used to call them as they were
          > cleaning out their penis like stems, or we would accidentally sit on them
          > as they pee'd out.)
          >
          > When the afternoon came around we would start to pack things up and head
          > on back the direction we came from. I remember the day being warm and
          > pleasant. No jacket needed that day. The tracks were wooded and rocks all
          > over the place. I was known to have great balance back then. Frankie and I
          > were walking side by side that day. At some point and time Frankie offered
          > me a life saver; the spearimint kind. I guess it was at this point I
          > reached for the candy being offered and started to fall out of my hand. Not
          > paying much attention that i was on the left of Frankie, which meant i was
          > by the third rail and only a wooden beam worn down by weather was between
          > me and it; so as i reached with my left hand for the lifesaver, I tripped
          > and strangely enough, my arm goes right between the wooden beam and the
          > third rail. That moment i became electrified like no coherent words today
          > could describe that one event. I jolted. I buckled. Shaking like riding a
          > bronco. I was magnetized to that rail. I remember thinking, painfully, I am
          > going to die...here and now. I remember my friend trying to reach for me
          > and grab me with his bare hands to pull me by my shirt collar but i could
          > sense the fear in him and he quickly backed away and started walking away -
          > creepily enough, I had always sworn he started whistling as he done so.
          >
          > There I am. Waiting for my heart to explode. The volts pouring thru my
          > body like a live wire. The sheer intensity i was feeling like i was on fire
          > from the inside. There is no escape from this death grip im in, I had
          > thought. As Frankie is walking away, my head jolts right. I have no control
          > of my muscles as they spasm like a tornado. In that split second, what
          > seemed like eternity, something glowed, then something opened. It was like
          > a hole in the air. The purest white void. A smell in the air. I thought it
          > was me starting to burn. The void grew and flickered. Then something
          > orangish-like glow. No. It was something else. Cause it was walking toward
          > or gliding to me. It had a body but it was just an outline. It had wings i
          > thought.
          >
          > Then it entered me. It was like something took over. My right arm. The
          > free one. It quickly snapped up and reached for my left arm. The one that
          > was deathbolted to the third rail and yanked it out with some unknown
          > strength that i could not do.
          >
          > Then i felt a release. It was gone. I was still in shock touching myself
          > all over. Wondering if i was dead or what just happened. I looked at
          > myself. My hands. My arms. No burns. No marks. My heart still beating
          > rapidly. Can still see. At that point I started crying like the clouds
          > opened up. Frankie was in the distance. I could still see him. Then I ran
          > after him as far as my feet could carry me. When I did catch up with him
          > and grabbed him he screamed bloody murder, "Don't touch me!!!!Don't touch
          > me!!!" He was freaked out wondering if i was a ghost or the walking dead.
          > He asked me what happened. Never to bother ask me if i was alright. But i
          > showed him my hands. There was no burns or anything and i was not dead...at
          > all. He was surprised by that. I don't know how many volts or amps were
          > going through me that day. I've heard generally a third rail carries about
          > 60 volts across it enough to blow up tin like metal. The strangest thing,
          > was not just leaving the terrifying experience intact, it was how i got
          > out. So if there are things out there living in different domains, I have a
          > reluctant ponderance to agree on those terms.
          >
          > And yes. This is a true story. Implausible? Yes. Would i believe it if you
          > told me? No.
          >
          > Thanks for listening.
          >
          >
          > .--- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Dick." <richard@...> wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > > Maybe?
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [ I am forty seven and I had near death experience three years ago. I
          > > was in green pastures through which there was a river with even greener
          > > pastures on the other side of the bridge. I was about to cross the
          > > bridge but got an understanding from what seemed like a person on the
          > > other side of that bridge that I could not go on and that I had to come
          > > back and get on with my life. It was real. Yet you talk of going into
          > > death and yet coming back here into the same life. Maybe there are
          > > different modes of death. ]
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Maybe does not figure in my life, either I know something or I don't
          > > know it. I read hundreds if not thousands of NDE's over a twenty
          > > year period, they are all different, yet with similarities. But they are
          > > NOT death experiences, they are near death experiences. When you are
          > > GONE and exist no more than THAT is death. That is what happened. GONE.
          > > Was no more. Bring me a person if you can find one who has known death
          > > and we will talk. I have never found one yet who had not also found that
          > > eternal domain on the other side of it. But the person that exists
          > > there, and although still ME, is nothing like a human being that exists
          > > here. IPSO. It is (I AM) the first emanation of cognitive life. It is
          > > primordial conscious existence. It is going home. But there is more than
          > > the beginning.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > MAYBE there is another kind of death. Highly probably I would imagine.
          > > But I don't KNOW it. It is a maybe as far as I am concerned. MAYBE
          > > there is just a sleep of oblivion from which one never wakes up. But IF
          > > that were SO then nobody would ever know it. You cannot KNOW not
          > > existing. So there would be nobody to talk of it.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > However, this mystic death is not like falling asleep, it is the
          > > experience of ANNIHILATION, the experience of being extinguished. You
          > > are there while being kind of melted down. NOT the nicest experience
          > > that one could live through. But what is on the other side if it is
          > > worth it. Mystical experience and moving on IS NOT all fun and games.
          > > But how could you turn a one pint jug into a two pint jug other than to
          > > melt it down and start again in a new mould?
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > What you lived through was an introverted ARKON image emanation, a
          > > common psychic archetype. And it has taught you something has it not. Be
          > > grateful for that. But, as I say, bring me the person who has known NOT
          > > existing and we will chat.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > MAYBE I will win the lottery today. And maybe not. MAYBE has no part to
          > > play in my life. I take what comes and have to get on with it. But, for
          > > what it is worth to you then that mystic death and resurrection event
          > > and then coming back here again after all that into the same lifetime
          > > does seem to be quite rare. It was quite a shock too. But you get use to
          > > it. But as I say, it is only one more hurdle to climb, there is MORE.
          > > There is the uniting of Eternity with Time. THAT will rattle your
          > > marbles. But that is a bridge too far yet and they will not know what
          > > the frig you are talking about. Such is life here eh. But I give you a
          > > little tip � go and ask the buddhists and the gnostics, for they
          > > know EVERYTHING ;- )))) Or they make be-lief that they do :- )))) They
          > > are WORSE than academics from Oxbridge and other such halls of academia.
          > > A little learning eh :- )))) By the way, if you write books then you
          > > will learn a lot by way of feed-back. Learn and Grow � assuming that
          > > you want to go on further that is.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Thanks for your story.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Dick Richardson
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Mary
          ... What a lovely sentiment, Peter. ... I have an answer to your query of Bryan, but will wait for his response. I consider your question extremely relevant
          Message 4 of 15 , Sep 20, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Peter ciccariello <ciccariello@...> wrote:
            >
            > Of all the things I do on the internet, I think reading and following the
            > posts on Existlist is the most baffling for me. I have come to consider, in
            > my inner silence, these disembodied voices as something closely resembling
            > friends. Although reactively dismissing some and cherishing others, it
            > above all else keeps me somehow…well… in the conversation.

            What a lovely sentiment, Peter.

            >
            > Bryan… your post intrigued me on several levels. First, being so very
            > familiar with that train line having traveled it decades ago every day, the
            > LIRR from Port Washington to Manhattan holds a special fascination to me.
            > My younger brother in fact, did what you and your friends did, every day
            > after school was out. Thankfully none ever experienced an incident like you
            > did that day.
            >
            >
            >
            > I am curious as to how to see or process your experience, and NDE for that
            > matter through the lens of Existentianlism. Alittle googling brought up
            > this thread from 2008. I guess we have all been here before?

            I have an answer to your query of Bryan, but will wait for his response. I consider your question extremely relevant for those who might come to 'existlist' for this very purpose.

            Always nice to hear from you,
            Mary

            >
            >
            >
            > *[existlist] Re: Relevance of NDEs to Existentialism*
            >
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist/message/43855
            >
            >
            > - Peter
            >
            >
            >
            > ____________________
            >
            >
            > On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 12:52 PM, Bryan Junius <bryan.junius@...>wrote:
            >
            > > **
            > >
            > >
            > > When I was young I used to walk the train tracks in Queens, sometimes as
            > > far as Little Neck. The railroad tracks i use to walk were not the busy
            > > type; a train maybe every 45 minutes to an hour. I can still remember the
            > > train conductors yelling at me, "Hey kids! Get off the damn tracks!! You'll
            > > get killed!!"
            > >
            > > These trains use to commute people back and and forth from Flushing Queens
            > > out toward Great Neck which was much further and right after Little Neck.
            > > Use to have a friend go with me, his name was Frankie and 5 years older
            > > than me at the time. Sometimes he like to bully people because of his big
            > > build, even me now and again. Why we hung out every now and then still
            > > alludes me today.
            > >
            > > We would get up real early in the morning to do this because the hike was
            > > kind of long. We would bring a small backpack, maybe a few sandwiches to
            > > snack on and some drinks.
            > >
            > > When we got to our destination. It was like a bay, and a small reef type
            > > beach with white-beige sand. We threw rocks out there. Built a small camp
            > > fire. Dug up small piss clams (thats what we used to call them as they were
            > > cleaning out their penis like stems, or we would accidentally sit on them
            > > as they pee'd out.)
            > >
            > > When the afternoon came around we would start to pack things up and head
            > > on back the direction we came from. I remember the day being warm and
            > > pleasant. No jacket needed that day. The tracks were wooded and rocks all
            > > over the place. I was known to have great balance back then. Frankie and I
            > > were walking side by side that day. At some point and time Frankie offered
            > > me a life saver; the spearimint kind. I guess it was at this point I
            > > reached for the candy being offered and started to fall out of my hand. Not
            > > paying much attention that i was on the left of Frankie, which meant i was
            > > by the third rail and only a wooden beam worn down by weather was between
            > > me and it; so as i reached with my left hand for the lifesaver, I tripped
            > > and strangely enough, my arm goes right between the wooden beam and the
            > > third rail. That moment i became electrified like no coherent words today
            > > could describe that one event. I jolted. I buckled. Shaking like riding a
            > > bronco. I was magnetized to that rail. I remember thinking, painfully, I am
            > > going to die...here and now. I remember my friend trying to reach for me
            > > and grab me with his bare hands to pull me by my shirt collar but i could
            > > sense the fear in him and he quickly backed away and started walking away -
            > > creepily enough, I had always sworn he started whistling as he done so.
            > >
            > > There I am. Waiting for my heart to explode. The volts pouring thru my
            > > body like a live wire. The sheer intensity i was feeling like i was on fire
            > > from the inside. There is no escape from this death grip im in, I had
            > > thought. As Frankie is walking away, my head jolts right. I have no control
            > > of my muscles as they spasm like a tornado. In that split second, what
            > > seemed like eternity, something glowed, then something opened. It was like
            > > a hole in the air. The purest white void. A smell in the air. I thought it
            > > was me starting to burn. The void grew and flickered. Then something
            > > orangish-like glow. No. It was something else. Cause it was walking toward
            > > or gliding to me. It had a body but it was just an outline. It had wings i
            > > thought.
            > >
            > > Then it entered me. It was like something took over. My right arm. The
            > > free one. It quickly snapped up and reached for my left arm. The one that
            > > was deathbolted to the third rail and yanked it out with some unknown
            > > strength that i could not do.
            > >
            > > Then i felt a release. It was gone. I was still in shock touching myself
            > > all over. Wondering if i was dead or what just happened. I looked at
            > > myself. My hands. My arms. No burns. No marks. My heart still beating
            > > rapidly. Can still see. At that point I started crying like the clouds
            > > opened up. Frankie was in the distance. I could still see him. Then I ran
            > > after him as far as my feet could carry me. When I did catch up with him
            > > and grabbed him he screamed bloody murder, "Don't touch me!!!!Don't touch
            > > me!!!" He was freaked out wondering if i was a ghost or the walking dead.
            > > He asked me what happened. Never to bother ask me if i was alright. But i
            > > showed him my hands. There was no burns or anything and i was not dead...at
            > > all. He was surprised by that. I don't know how many volts or amps were
            > > going through me that day. I've heard generally a third rail carries about
            > > 60 volts across it enough to blow up tin like metal. The strangest thing,
            > > was not just leaving the terrifying experience intact, it was how i got
            > > out. So if there are things out there living in different domains, I have a
            > > reluctant ponderance to agree on those terms.
            > >
            > > And yes. This is a true story. Implausible? Yes. Would i believe it if you
            > > told me? No.
            > >
            > > Thanks for listening.
            > >
            > >
            > > .--- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Dick." <richard@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Maybe?
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > [ I am forty seven and I had near death experience three years ago. I
            > > > was in green pastures through which there was a river with even greener
            > > > pastures on the other side of the bridge. I was about to cross the
            > > > bridge but got an understanding from what seemed like a person on the
            > > > other side of that bridge that I could not go on and that I had to come
            > > > back and get on with my life. It was real. Yet you talk of going into
            > > > death and yet coming back here into the same life. Maybe there are
            > > > different modes of death. ]
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Maybe does not figure in my life, either I know something or I don't
            > > > know it. I read hundreds if not thousands of NDE's over a twenty
            > > > year period, they are all different, yet with similarities. But they are
            > > > NOT death experiences, they are near death experiences. When you are
            > > > GONE and exist no more than THAT is death. That is what happened. GONE.
            > > > Was no more. Bring me a person if you can find one who has known death
            > > > and we will talk. I have never found one yet who had not also found that
            > > > eternal domain on the other side of it. But the person that exists
            > > > there, and although still ME, is nothing like a human being that exists
            > > > here. IPSO. It is (I AM) the first emanation of cognitive life. It is
            > > > primordial conscious existence. It is going home. But there is more than
            > > > the beginning.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > MAYBE there is another kind of death. Highly probably I would imagine.
            > > > But I don't KNOW it. It is a maybe as far as I am concerned. MAYBE
            > > > there is just a sleep of oblivion from which one never wakes up. But IF
            > > > that were SO then nobody would ever know it. You cannot KNOW not
            > > > existing. So there would be nobody to talk of it.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > However, this mystic death is not like falling asleep, it is the
            > > > experience of ANNIHILATION, the experience of being extinguished. You
            > > > are there while being kind of melted down. NOT the nicest experience
            > > > that one could live through. But what is on the other side if it is
            > > > worth it. Mystical experience and moving on IS NOT all fun and games.
            > > > But how could you turn a one pint jug into a two pint jug other than to
            > > > melt it down and start again in a new mould?
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > What you lived through was an introverted ARKON image emanation, a
            > > > common psychic archetype. And it has taught you something has it not. Be
            > > > grateful for that. But, as I say, bring me the person who has known NOT
            > > > existing and we will chat.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > MAYBE I will win the lottery today. And maybe not. MAYBE has no part to
            > > > play in my life. I take what comes and have to get on with it. But, for
            > > > what it is worth to you then that mystic death and resurrection event
            > > > and then coming back here again after all that into the same lifetime
            > > > does seem to be quite rare. It was quite a shock too. But you get use to
            > > > it. But as I say, it is only one more hurdle to climb, there is MORE.
            > > > There is the uniting of Eternity with Time. THAT will rattle your
            > > > marbles. But that is a bridge too far yet and they will not know what
            > > > the frig you are talking about. Such is life here eh. But I give you a
            > > > little tip – go and ask the buddhists and the gnostics, for they
            > > > know EVERYTHING ;- )))) Or they make be-lief that they do :- )))) They
            > > > are WORSE than academics from Oxbridge and other such halls of academia.
            > > > A little learning eh :- )))) By the way, if you write books then you
            > > > will learn a lot by way of feed-back. Learn and Grow – assuming that
            > > > you want to go on further that is.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Thanks for your story.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Dick Richardson
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • Bryan Junius
            Peter, Thank you for reading. To answer your question as honestly as possible on how I process my everyday experience through the lens of existentialism is
            Message 5 of 15 , Sep 20, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              Peter,

              Thank you for reading.

              To answer your question as honestly as possible on how I process my everyday experience through the lens of existentialism is kind of challenging. I have studied philosophy for a very, very, very long time as far back as i can remember.

              I have seen alot of things, been around the world, been in the military, met a lot of strange people that I came to know in my passings, have had some very brilliant conversations with theoretical physicists, philosophers, buddhists, Christians, and the every day Joe. I find all my conversations, writings, thoughts in my memoirs and personal journals have led me to this point in my life...that i dont have to fight anymore to live.

              That the cares of the world in political matters and struggles of world domination are beyond me. I see that my own struggles in life was living like the "Stranger" from an Albert Camus novel. I was my own enemy. My own demon. My own savior. My own personal vendetta. My silent scream. My own nirvana. My own peace of mind.

              Old philosophy of Descartes, Sartre, Kierkegaard, Schopenhauer, etc...have in my life, been thrown out with the dirty bathwater they put in.

              regards,

              Bryan

              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@...> wrote:
              >
              > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Peter ciccariello <ciccariello@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Of all the things I do on the internet, I think reading and following the
              > > posts on Existlist is the most baffling for me. I have come to consider, in
              > > my inner silence, these disembodied voices as something closely resembling
              > > friends. Although reactively dismissing some and cherishing others, it
              > > above all else keeps me somehow…well… in the conversation.
              >
              > What a lovely sentiment, Peter.
              >
              > >
              > > Bryan… your post intrigued me on several levels. First, being so very
              > > familiar with that train line having traveled it decades ago every day, the
              > > LIRR from Port Washington to Manhattan holds a special fascination to me.
              > > My younger brother in fact, did what you and your friends did, every day
              > > after school was out. Thankfully none ever experienced an incident like you
              > > did that day.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > I am curious as to how to see or process your experience, and NDE for that
              > > matter through the lens of Existentianlism. Alittle googling brought up
              > > this thread from 2008. I guess we have all been here before?
              >
              > I have an answer to your query of Bryan, but will wait for his response. I consider your question extremely relevant for those who might come to 'existlist' for this very purpose.
              >
              > Always nice to hear from you,
              > Mary
              >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > *[existlist] Re: Relevance of NDEs to Existentialism*
              > >
              > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist/message/43855
              > >
              > >
              > > - Peter
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ____________________
              > >
              > >
              > > On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 12:52 PM, Bryan Junius <bryan.junius@>wrote:
              > >
              > > > **
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > When I was young I used to walk the train tracks in Queens, sometimes as
              > > > far as Little Neck. The railroad tracks i use to walk were not the busy
              > > > type; a train maybe every 45 minutes to an hour. I can still remember the
              > > > train conductors yelling at me, "Hey kids! Get off the damn tracks!! You'll
              > > > get killed!!"
              > > >
              > > > These trains use to commute people back and and forth from Flushing Queens
              > > > out toward Great Neck which was much further and right after Little Neck.
              > > > Use to have a friend go with me, his name was Frankie and 5 years older
              > > > than me at the time. Sometimes he like to bully people because of his big
              > > > build, even me now and again. Why we hung out every now and then still
              > > > alludes me today.
              > > >
              > > > We would get up real early in the morning to do this because the hike was
              > > > kind of long. We would bring a small backpack, maybe a few sandwiches to
              > > > snack on and some drinks.
              > > >
              > > > When we got to our destination. It was like a bay, and a small reef type
              > > > beach with white-beige sand. We threw rocks out there. Built a small camp
              > > > fire. Dug up small piss clams (thats what we used to call them as they were
              > > > cleaning out their penis like stems, or we would accidentally sit on them
              > > > as they pee'd out.)
              > > >
              > > > When the afternoon came around we would start to pack things up and head
              > > > on back the direction we came from. I remember the day being warm and
              > > > pleasant. No jacket needed that day. The tracks were wooded and rocks all
              > > > over the place. I was known to have great balance back then. Frankie and I
              > > > were walking side by side that day. At some point and time Frankie offered
              > > > me a life saver; the spearimint kind. I guess it was at this point I
              > > > reached for the candy being offered and started to fall out of my hand. Not
              > > > paying much attention that i was on the left of Frankie, which meant i was
              > > > by the third rail and only a wooden beam worn down by weather was between
              > > > me and it; so as i reached with my left hand for the lifesaver, I tripped
              > > > and strangely enough, my arm goes right between the wooden beam and the
              > > > third rail. That moment i became electrified like no coherent words today
              > > > could describe that one event. I jolted. I buckled. Shaking like riding a
              > > > bronco. I was magnetized to that rail. I remember thinking, painfully, I am
              > > > going to die...here and now. I remember my friend trying to reach for me
              > > > and grab me with his bare hands to pull me by my shirt collar but i could
              > > > sense the fear in him and he quickly backed away and started walking away -
              > > > creepily enough, I had always sworn he started whistling as he done so.
              > > >
              > > > There I am. Waiting for my heart to explode. The volts pouring thru my
              > > > body like a live wire. The sheer intensity i was feeling like i was on fire
              > > > from the inside. There is no escape from this death grip im in, I had
              > > > thought. As Frankie is walking away, my head jolts right. I have no control
              > > > of my muscles as they spasm like a tornado. In that split second, what
              > > > seemed like eternity, something glowed, then something opened. It was like
              > > > a hole in the air. The purest white void. A smell in the air. I thought it
              > > > was me starting to burn. The void grew and flickered. Then something
              > > > orangish-like glow. No. It was something else. Cause it was walking toward
              > > > or gliding to me. It had a body but it was just an outline. It had wings i
              > > > thought.
              > > >
              > > > Then it entered me. It was like something took over. My right arm. The
              > > > free one. It quickly snapped up and reached for my left arm. The one that
              > > > was deathbolted to the third rail and yanked it out with some unknown
              > > > strength that i could not do.
              > > >
              > > > Then i felt a release. It was gone. I was still in shock touching myself
              > > > all over. Wondering if i was dead or what just happened. I looked at
              > > > myself. My hands. My arms. No burns. No marks. My heart still beating
              > > > rapidly. Can still see. At that point I started crying like the clouds
              > > > opened up. Frankie was in the distance. I could still see him. Then I ran
              > > > after him as far as my feet could carry me. When I did catch up with him
              > > > and grabbed him he screamed bloody murder, "Don't touch me!!!!Don't touch
              > > > me!!!" He was freaked out wondering if i was a ghost or the walking dead.
              > > > He asked me what happened. Never to bother ask me if i was alright. But i
              > > > showed him my hands. There was no burns or anything and i was not dead...at
              > > > all. He was surprised by that. I don't know how many volts or amps were
              > > > going through me that day. I've heard generally a third rail carries about
              > > > 60 volts across it enough to blow up tin like metal. The strangest thing,
              > > > was not just leaving the terrifying experience intact, it was how i got
              > > > out. So if there are things out there living in different domains, I have a
              > > > reluctant ponderance to agree on those terms.
              > > >
              > > > And yes. This is a true story. Implausible? Yes. Would i believe it if you
              > > > told me? No.
              > > >
              > > > Thanks for listening.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > .--- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Dick." <richard@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > Maybe?
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > [ I am forty seven and I had near death experience three years ago. I
              > > > > was in green pastures through which there was a river with even greener
              > > > > pastures on the other side of the bridge. I was about to cross the
              > > > > bridge but got an understanding from what seemed like a person on the
              > > > > other side of that bridge that I could not go on and that I had to come
              > > > > back and get on with my life. It was real. Yet you talk of going into
              > > > > death and yet coming back here into the same life. Maybe there are
              > > > > different modes of death. ]
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > Maybe does not figure in my life, either I know something or I don't
              > > > > know it. I read hundreds if not thousands of NDE's over a twenty
              > > > > year period, they are all different, yet with similarities. But they are
              > > > > NOT death experiences, they are near death experiences. When you are
              > > > > GONE and exist no more than THAT is death. That is what happened. GONE.
              > > > > Was no more. Bring me a person if you can find one who has known death
              > > > > and we will talk. I have never found one yet who had not also found that
              > > > > eternal domain on the other side of it. But the person that exists
              > > > > there, and although still ME, is nothing like a human being that exists
              > > > > here. IPSO. It is (I AM) the first emanation of cognitive life. It is
              > > > > primordial conscious existence. It is going home. But there is more than
              > > > > the beginning.
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > MAYBE there is another kind of death. Highly probably I would imagine.
              > > > > But I don't KNOW it. It is a maybe as far as I am concerned. MAYBE
              > > > > there is just a sleep of oblivion from which one never wakes up. But IF
              > > > > that were SO then nobody would ever know it. You cannot KNOW not
              > > > > existing. So there would be nobody to talk of it.
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > However, this mystic death is not like falling asleep, it is the
              > > > > experience of ANNIHILATION, the experience of being extinguished. You
              > > > > are there while being kind of melted down. NOT the nicest experience
              > > > > that one could live through. But what is on the other side if it is
              > > > > worth it. Mystical experience and moving on IS NOT all fun and games.
              > > > > But how could you turn a one pint jug into a two pint jug other than to
              > > > > melt it down and start again in a new mould?
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > What you lived through was an introverted ARKON image emanation, a
              > > > > common psychic archetype. And it has taught you something has it not. Be
              > > > > grateful for that. But, as I say, bring me the person who has known NOT
              > > > > existing and we will chat.
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > MAYBE I will win the lottery today. And maybe not. MAYBE has no part to
              > > > > play in my life. I take what comes and have to get on with it. But, for
              > > > > what it is worth to you then that mystic death and resurrection event
              > > > > and then coming back here again after all that into the same lifetime
              > > > > does seem to be quite rare. It was quite a shock too. But you get use to
              > > > > it. But as I say, it is only one more hurdle to climb, there is MORE.
              > > > > There is the uniting of Eternity with Time. THAT will rattle your
              > > > > marbles. But that is a bridge too far yet and they will not know what
              > > > > the frig you are talking about. Such is life here eh. But I give you a
              > > > > little tip – go and ask the buddhists and the gnostics, for they
              > > > > know EVERYTHING ;- )))) Or they make be-lief that they do :- )))) They
              > > > > are WORSE than academics from Oxbridge and other such halls of academia.
              > > > > A little learning eh :- )))) By the way, if you write books then you
              > > > > will learn a lot by way of feed-back. Learn and Grow – assuming that
              > > > > you want to go on further that is.
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > Thanks for your story.
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > Dick Richardson
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              >
            • Mary
              Your response seems contradictory; you ve found your own way yet reject Existentialism. In determining your own values and giving life your own meaning, how
              Message 6 of 15 , Sep 20, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                Your response seems contradictory; you've found your own way yet reject Existentialism.
                In determining your own values and giving life your own meaning, how has Existentialism thwarted you? I think, however, that Peter's question was related more to your risk taking and near death experience. How do/did these relate to your understanding of Existentialism?

                Mary

                --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Bryan Junius" <bryan.junius@...> wrote:
                >
                > Peter,
                >
                > Thank you for reading.
                >
                > To answer your question as honestly as possible on how I process my everyday experience through the lens of existentialism is kind of challenging. I have studied philosophy for a very, very, very long time as far back as i can remember.
                >
                > I have seen alot of things, been around the world, been in the military, met a lot of strange people that I came to know in my passings, have had some very brilliant conversations with theoretical physicists, philosophers, buddhists, Christians, and the every day Joe. I find all my conversations, writings, thoughts in my memoirs and personal journals have led me to this point in my life...that i dont have to fight anymore to live.
                >
                > That the cares of the world in political matters and struggles of world domination are beyond me. I see that my own struggles in life was living like the "Stranger" from an Albert Camus novel. I was my own enemy. My own demon. My own savior. My own personal vendetta. My silent scream. My own nirvana. My own peace of mind.
                >
                > Old philosophy of Descartes, Sartre, Kierkegaard, Schopenhauer, etc...have in my life, been thrown out with the dirty bathwater they put in.
                >
                > regards,
                >
                > Bryan
                >
                > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@> wrote:
                > >
                > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Peter ciccariello <ciccariello@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Of all the things I do on the internet, I think reading and following the
                > > > posts on Existlist is the most baffling for me. I have come to consider, in
                > > > my inner silence, these disembodied voices as something closely resembling
                > > > friends. Although reactively dismissing some and cherishing others, it
                > > > above all else keeps me somehow…well… in the conversation.
                > >
                > > What a lovely sentiment, Peter.
                > >
                > > >
                > > > Bryan… your post intrigued me on several levels. First, being so very
                > > > familiar with that train line having traveled it decades ago every day, the
                > > > LIRR from Port Washington to Manhattan holds a special fascination to me.
                > > > My younger brother in fact, did what you and your friends did, every day
                > > > after school was out. Thankfully none ever experienced an incident like you
                > > > did that day.
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > I am curious as to how to see or process your experience, and NDE for that
                > > > matter through the lens of Existentianlism. Alittle googling brought up
                > > > this thread from 2008. I guess we have all been here before?
                > >
                > > I have an answer to your query of Bryan, but will wait for his response. I consider your question extremely relevant for those who might come to 'existlist' for this very purpose.
                > >
                > > Always nice to hear from you,
                > > Mary
                > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > *[existlist] Re: Relevance of NDEs to Existentialism*
                > > >
                > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist/message/43855
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > - Peter
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > ____________________
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 12:52 PM, Bryan Junius <bryan.junius@>wrote:
                > > >
                > > > > **
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > When I was young I used to walk the train tracks in Queens, sometimes as
                > > > > far as Little Neck. The railroad tracks i use to walk were not the busy
                > > > > type; a train maybe every 45 minutes to an hour. I can still remember the
                > > > > train conductors yelling at me, "Hey kids! Get off the damn tracks!! You'll
                > > > > get killed!!"
                > > > >
                > > > > These trains use to commute people back and and forth from Flushing Queens
                > > > > out toward Great Neck which was much further and right after Little Neck.
                > > > > Use to have a friend go with me, his name was Frankie and 5 years older
                > > > > than me at the time. Sometimes he like to bully people because of his big
                > > > > build, even me now and again. Why we hung out every now and then still
                > > > > alludes me today.
                > > > >
                > > > > We would get up real early in the morning to do this because the hike was
                > > > > kind of long. We would bring a small backpack, maybe a few sandwiches to
                > > > > snack on and some drinks.
                > > > >
                > > > > When we got to our destination. It was like a bay, and a small reef type
                > > > > beach with white-beige sand. We threw rocks out there. Built a small camp
                > > > > fire. Dug up small piss clams (thats what we used to call them as they were
                > > > > cleaning out their penis like stems, or we would accidentally sit on them
                > > > > as they pee'd out.)
                > > > >
                > > > > When the afternoon came around we would start to pack things up and head
                > > > > on back the direction we came from. I remember the day being warm and
                > > > > pleasant. No jacket needed that day. The tracks were wooded and rocks all
                > > > > over the place. I was known to have great balance back then. Frankie and I
                > > > > were walking side by side that day. At some point and time Frankie offered
                > > > > me a life saver; the spearimint kind. I guess it was at this point I
                > > > > reached for the candy being offered and started to fall out of my hand. Not
                > > > > paying much attention that i was on the left of Frankie, which meant i was
                > > > > by the third rail and only a wooden beam worn down by weather was between
                > > > > me and it; so as i reached with my left hand for the lifesaver, I tripped
                > > > > and strangely enough, my arm goes right between the wooden beam and the
                > > > > third rail. That moment i became electrified like no coherent words today
                > > > > could describe that one event. I jolted. I buckled. Shaking like riding a
                > > > > bronco. I was magnetized to that rail. I remember thinking, painfully, I am
                > > > > going to die...here and now. I remember my friend trying to reach for me
                > > > > and grab me with his bare hands to pull me by my shirt collar but i could
                > > > > sense the fear in him and he quickly backed away and started walking away -
                > > > > creepily enough, I had always sworn he started whistling as he done so.
                > > > >
                > > > > There I am. Waiting for my heart to explode. The volts pouring thru my
                > > > > body like a live wire. The sheer intensity i was feeling like i was on fire
                > > > > from the inside. There is no escape from this death grip im in, I had
                > > > > thought. As Frankie is walking away, my head jolts right. I have no control
                > > > > of my muscles as they spasm like a tornado. In that split second, what
                > > > > seemed like eternity, something glowed, then something opened. It was like
                > > > > a hole in the air. The purest white void. A smell in the air. I thought it
                > > > > was me starting to burn. The void grew and flickered. Then something
                > > > > orangish-like glow. No. It was something else. Cause it was walking toward
                > > > > or gliding to me. It had a body but it was just an outline. It had wings i
                > > > > thought.
                > > > >
                > > > > Then it entered me. It was like something took over. My right arm. The
                > > > > free one. It quickly snapped up and reached for my left arm. The one that
                > > > > was deathbolted to the third rail and yanked it out with some unknown
                > > > > strength that i could not do.
                > > > >
                > > > > Then i felt a release. It was gone. I was still in shock touching myself
                > > > > all over. Wondering if i was dead or what just happened. I looked at
                > > > > myself. My hands. My arms. No burns. No marks. My heart still beating
                > > > > rapidly. Can still see. At that point I started crying like the clouds
                > > > > opened up. Frankie was in the distance. I could still see him. Then I ran
                > > > > after him as far as my feet could carry me. When I did catch up with him
                > > > > and grabbed him he screamed bloody murder, "Don't touch me!!!!Don't touch
                > > > > me!!!" He was freaked out wondering if i was a ghost or the walking dead.
                > > > > He asked me what happened. Never to bother ask me if i was alright. But i
                > > > > showed him my hands. There was no burns or anything and i was not dead...at
                > > > > all. He was surprised by that. I don't know how many volts or amps were
                > > > > going through me that day. I've heard generally a third rail carries about
                > > > > 60 volts across it enough to blow up tin like metal. The strangest thing,
                > > > > was not just leaving the terrifying experience intact, it was how i got
                > > > > out. So if there are things out there living in different domains, I have a
                > > > > reluctant ponderance to agree on those terms.
                > > > >
                > > > > And yes. This is a true story. Implausible? Yes. Would i believe it if you
                > > > > told me? No.
                > > > >
                > > > > Thanks for listening.
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > .--- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Dick." <richard@> wrote:
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Maybe?
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > [ I am forty seven and I had near death experience three years ago. I
                > > > > > was in green pastures through which there was a river with even greener
                > > > > > pastures on the other side of the bridge. I was about to cross the
                > > > > > bridge but got an understanding from what seemed like a person on the
                > > > > > other side of that bridge that I could not go on and that I had to come
                > > > > > back and get on with my life. It was real. Yet you talk of going into
                > > > > > death and yet coming back here into the same life. Maybe there are
                > > > > > different modes of death. ]
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Maybe does not figure in my life, either I know something or I don't
                > > > > > know it. I read hundreds if not thousands of NDE's over a twenty
                > > > > > year period, they are all different, yet with similarities. But they are
                > > > > > NOT death experiences, they are near death experiences. When you are
                > > > > > GONE and exist no more than THAT is death. That is what happened. GONE.
                > > > > > Was no more. Bring me a person if you can find one who has known death
                > > > > > and we will talk. I have never found one yet who had not also found that
                > > > > > eternal domain on the other side of it. But the person that exists
                > > > > > there, and although still ME, is nothing like a human being that exists
                > > > > > here. IPSO. It is (I AM) the first emanation of cognitive life. It is
                > > > > > primordial conscious existence. It is going home. But there is more than
                > > > > > the beginning.
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > MAYBE there is another kind of death. Highly probably I would imagine.
                > > > > > But I don't KNOW it. It is a maybe as far as I am concerned. MAYBE
                > > > > > there is just a sleep of oblivion from which one never wakes up. But IF
                > > > > > that were SO then nobody would ever know it. You cannot KNOW not
                > > > > > existing. So there would be nobody to talk of it.
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > However, this mystic death is not like falling asleep, it is the
                > > > > > experience of ANNIHILATION, the experience of being extinguished. You
                > > > > > are there while being kind of melted down. NOT the nicest experience
                > > > > > that one could live through. But what is on the other side if it is
                > > > > > worth it. Mystical experience and moving on IS NOT all fun and games.
                > > > > > But how could you turn a one pint jug into a two pint jug other than to
                > > > > > melt it down and start again in a new mould?
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > What you lived through was an introverted ARKON image emanation, a
                > > > > > common psychic archetype. And it has taught you something has it not. Be
                > > > > > grateful for that. But, as I say, bring me the person who has known NOT
                > > > > > existing and we will chat.
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > MAYBE I will win the lottery today. And maybe not. MAYBE has no part to
                > > > > > play in my life. I take what comes and have to get on with it. But, for
                > > > > > what it is worth to you then that mystic death and resurrection event
                > > > > > and then coming back here again after all that into the same lifetime
                > > > > > does seem to be quite rare. It was quite a shock too. But you get use to
                > > > > > it. But as I say, it is only one more hurdle to climb, there is MORE.
                > > > > > There is the uniting of Eternity with Time. THAT will rattle your
                > > > > > marbles. But that is a bridge too far yet and they will not know what
                > > > > > the frig you are talking about. Such is life here eh. But I give you a
                > > > > > little tip – go and ask the buddhists and the gnostics, for they
                > > > > > know EVERYTHING ;- )))) Or they make be-lief that they do :- )))) They
                > > > > > are WORSE than academics from Oxbridge and other such halls of academia.
                > > > > > A little learning eh :- )))) By the way, if you write books then you
                > > > > > will learn a lot by way of feed-back. Learn and Grow – assuming that
                > > > > > you want to go on further that is.
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Thanks for your story.
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Dick Richardson
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • Bryan Junius
                Mary, My response is not contradictory because Existentialism forces you to find meaning in a meaningless world as to most which that may appear. There is no
                Message 7 of 15 , Sep 20, 2012
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                  Mary,

                  My response is not contradictory because Existentialism forces you to find meaning in a meaningless world as to most which that may appear. There is no rejection in that idea.

                  My NDE as it relates to existentialism basically means just what I stated: I don't fight anymore to live (this by no means states i seek death though). The doom and gloom of existentialism does not appeal to me as albert camus made it sound or the profoundness of Kafka's "Metamorphosis". Finding spirituality and enlightment in Existentialism is what every individual on planet Earth hopes to achieve--however, the exceptions, argue like Nietszche, that some chase in another direction to find superiority among individuals, and thus, we have the "Will to Power." And in a sense makes great argument about why individuals choose the higher morals for the sum or those who choose themselves as the moral of freedom.

                  regards,

                  Bryan



                  --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Your response seems contradictory; you've found your own way yet reject Existentialism.
                  > In determining your own values and giving life your own meaning, how has Existentialism thwarted you? I think, however, that Peter's question was related more to your risk taking and near death experience. How do/did these relate to your understanding of Existentialism?
                  >
                  > Mary
                  >
                  > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Bryan Junius" <bryan.junius@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Peter,
                  > >
                  > > Thank you for reading.
                  > >
                  > > To answer your question as honestly as possible on how I process my everyday experience through the lens of existentialism is kind of challenging. I have studied philosophy for a very, very, very long time as far back as i can remember.
                  > >
                  > > I have seen alot of things, been around the world, been in the military, met a lot of strange people that I came to know in my passings, have had some very brilliant conversations with theoretical physicists, philosophers, buddhists, Christians, and the every day Joe. I find all my conversations, writings, thoughts in my memoirs and personal journals have led me to this point in my life...that i dont have to fight anymore to live.
                  > >
                  > > That the cares of the world in political matters and struggles of world domination are beyond me. I see that my own struggles in life was living like the "Stranger" from an Albert Camus novel. I was my own enemy. My own demon. My own savior. My own personal vendetta. My silent scream. My own nirvana. My own peace of mind.
                  > >
                  > > Old philosophy of Descartes, Sartre, Kierkegaard, Schopenhauer, etc...have in my life, been thrown out with the dirty bathwater they put in.
                  > >
                  > > regards,
                  > >
                  > > Bryan
                  > >
                  > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Peter ciccariello <ciccariello@> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Of all the things I do on the internet, I think reading and following the
                  > > > > posts on Existlist is the most baffling for me. I have come to consider, in
                  > > > > my inner silence, these disembodied voices as something closely resembling
                  > > > > friends. Although reactively dismissing some and cherishing others, it
                  > > > > above all else keeps me somehow…well… in the conversation.
                  > > >
                  > > > What a lovely sentiment, Peter.
                  > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Bryan… your post intrigued me on several levels. First, being so very
                  > > > > familiar with that train line having traveled it decades ago every day, the
                  > > > > LIRR from Port Washington to Manhattan holds a special fascination to me.
                  > > > > My younger brother in fact, did what you and your friends did, every day
                  > > > > after school was out. Thankfully none ever experienced an incident like you
                  > > > > did that day.
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I am curious as to how to see or process your experience, and NDE for that
                  > > > > matter through the lens of Existentianlism. Alittle googling brought up
                  > > > > this thread from 2008. I guess we have all been here before?
                  > > >
                  > > > I have an answer to your query of Bryan, but will wait for his response. I consider your question extremely relevant for those who might come to 'existlist' for this very purpose.
                  > > >
                  > > > Always nice to hear from you,
                  > > > Mary
                  > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > *[existlist] Re: Relevance of NDEs to Existentialism*
                  > > > >
                  > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist/message/43855
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > - Peter
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > ____________________
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 12:52 PM, Bryan Junius <bryan.junius@>wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > > **
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > When I was young I used to walk the train tracks in Queens, sometimes as
                  > > > > > far as Little Neck. The railroad tracks i use to walk were not the busy
                  > > > > > type; a train maybe every 45 minutes to an hour. I can still remember the
                  > > > > > train conductors yelling at me, "Hey kids! Get off the damn tracks!! You'll
                  > > > > > get killed!!"
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > These trains use to commute people back and and forth from Flushing Queens
                  > > > > > out toward Great Neck which was much further and right after Little Neck.
                  > > > > > Use to have a friend go with me, his name was Frankie and 5 years older
                  > > > > > than me at the time. Sometimes he like to bully people because of his big
                  > > > > > build, even me now and again. Why we hung out every now and then still
                  > > > > > alludes me today.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > We would get up real early in the morning to do this because the hike was
                  > > > > > kind of long. We would bring a small backpack, maybe a few sandwiches to
                  > > > > > snack on and some drinks.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > When we got to our destination. It was like a bay, and a small reef type
                  > > > > > beach with white-beige sand. We threw rocks out there. Built a small camp
                  > > > > > fire. Dug up small piss clams (thats what we used to call them as they were
                  > > > > > cleaning out their penis like stems, or we would accidentally sit on them
                  > > > > > as they pee'd out.)
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > When the afternoon came around we would start to pack things up and head
                  > > > > > on back the direction we came from. I remember the day being warm and
                  > > > > > pleasant. No jacket needed that day. The tracks were wooded and rocks all
                  > > > > > over the place. I was known to have great balance back then. Frankie and I
                  > > > > > were walking side by side that day. At some point and time Frankie offered
                  > > > > > me a life saver; the spearimint kind. I guess it was at this point I
                  > > > > > reached for the candy being offered and started to fall out of my hand. Not
                  > > > > > paying much attention that i was on the left of Frankie, which meant i was
                  > > > > > by the third rail and only a wooden beam worn down by weather was between
                  > > > > > me and it; so as i reached with my left hand for the lifesaver, I tripped
                  > > > > > and strangely enough, my arm goes right between the wooden beam and the
                  > > > > > third rail. That moment i became electrified like no coherent words today
                  > > > > > could describe that one event. I jolted. I buckled. Shaking like riding a
                  > > > > > bronco. I was magnetized to that rail. I remember thinking, painfully, I am
                  > > > > > going to die...here and now. I remember my friend trying to reach for me
                  > > > > > and grab me with his bare hands to pull me by my shirt collar but i could
                  > > > > > sense the fear in him and he quickly backed away and started walking away -
                  > > > > > creepily enough, I had always sworn he started whistling as he done so.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > There I am. Waiting for my heart to explode. The volts pouring thru my
                  > > > > > body like a live wire. The sheer intensity i was feeling like i was on fire
                  > > > > > from the inside. There is no escape from this death grip im in, I had
                  > > > > > thought. As Frankie is walking away, my head jolts right. I have no control
                  > > > > > of my muscles as they spasm like a tornado. In that split second, what
                  > > > > > seemed like eternity, something glowed, then something opened. It was like
                  > > > > > a hole in the air. The purest white void. A smell in the air. I thought it
                  > > > > > was me starting to burn. The void grew and flickered. Then something
                  > > > > > orangish-like glow. No. It was something else. Cause it was walking toward
                  > > > > > or gliding to me. It had a body but it was just an outline. It had wings i
                  > > > > > thought.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Then it entered me. It was like something took over. My right arm. The
                  > > > > > free one. It quickly snapped up and reached for my left arm. The one that
                  > > > > > was deathbolted to the third rail and yanked it out with some unknown
                  > > > > > strength that i could not do.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Then i felt a release. It was gone. I was still in shock touching myself
                  > > > > > all over. Wondering if i was dead or what just happened. I looked at
                  > > > > > myself. My hands. My arms. No burns. No marks. My heart still beating
                  > > > > > rapidly. Can still see. At that point I started crying like the clouds
                  > > > > > opened up. Frankie was in the distance. I could still see him. Then I ran
                  > > > > > after him as far as my feet could carry me. When I did catch up with him
                  > > > > > and grabbed him he screamed bloody murder, "Don't touch me!!!!Don't touch
                  > > > > > me!!!" He was freaked out wondering if i was a ghost or the walking dead.
                  > > > > > He asked me what happened. Never to bother ask me if i was alright. But i
                  > > > > > showed him my hands. There was no burns or anything and i was not dead...at
                  > > > > > all. He was surprised by that. I don't know how many volts or amps were
                  > > > > > going through me that day. I've heard generally a third rail carries about
                  > > > > > 60 volts across it enough to blow up tin like metal. The strangest thing,
                  > > > > > was not just leaving the terrifying experience intact, it was how i got
                  > > > > > out. So if there are things out there living in different domains, I have a
                  > > > > > reluctant ponderance to agree on those terms.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > And yes. This is a true story. Implausible? Yes. Would i believe it if you
                  > > > > > told me? No.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Thanks for listening.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > .--- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Dick." <richard@> wrote:
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Maybe?
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > [ I am forty seven and I had near death experience three years ago. I
                  > > > > > > was in green pastures through which there was a river with even greener
                  > > > > > > pastures on the other side of the bridge. I was about to cross the
                  > > > > > > bridge but got an understanding from what seemed like a person on the
                  > > > > > > other side of that bridge that I could not go on and that I had to come
                  > > > > > > back and get on with my life. It was real. Yet you talk of going into
                  > > > > > > death and yet coming back here into the same life. Maybe there are
                  > > > > > > different modes of death. ]
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Maybe does not figure in my life, either I know something or I don't
                  > > > > > > know it. I read hundreds if not thousands of NDE's over a twenty
                  > > > > > > year period, they are all different, yet with similarities. But they are
                  > > > > > > NOT death experiences, they are near death experiences. When you are
                  > > > > > > GONE and exist no more than THAT is death. That is what happened. GONE.
                  > > > > > > Was no more. Bring me a person if you can find one who has known death
                  > > > > > > and we will talk. I have never found one yet who had not also found that
                  > > > > > > eternal domain on the other side of it. But the person that exists
                  > > > > > > there, and although still ME, is nothing like a human being that exists
                  > > > > > > here. IPSO. It is (I AM) the first emanation of cognitive life. It is
                  > > > > > > primordial conscious existence. It is going home. But there is more than
                  > > > > > > the beginning.
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > MAYBE there is another kind of death. Highly probably I would imagine.
                  > > > > > > But I don't KNOW it. It is a maybe as far as I am concerned. MAYBE
                  > > > > > > there is just a sleep of oblivion from which one never wakes up. But IF
                  > > > > > > that were SO then nobody would ever know it. You cannot KNOW not
                  > > > > > > existing. So there would be nobody to talk of it.
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > However, this mystic death is not like falling asleep, it is the
                  > > > > > > experience of ANNIHILATION, the experience of being extinguished. You
                  > > > > > > are there while being kind of melted down. NOT the nicest experience
                  > > > > > > that one could live through. But what is on the other side if it is
                  > > > > > > worth it. Mystical experience and moving on IS NOT all fun and games.
                  > > > > > > But how could you turn a one pint jug into a two pint jug other than to
                  > > > > > > melt it down and start again in a new mould?
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > What you lived through was an introverted ARKON image emanation, a
                  > > > > > > common psychic archetype. And it has taught you something has it not. Be
                  > > > > > > grateful for that. But, as I say, bring me the person who has known NOT
                  > > > > > > existing and we will chat.
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > MAYBE I will win the lottery today. And maybe not. MAYBE has no part to
                  > > > > > > play in my life. I take what comes and have to get on with it. But, for
                  > > > > > > what it is worth to you then that mystic death and resurrection event
                  > > > > > > and then coming back here again after all that into the same lifetime
                  > > > > > > does seem to be quite rare. It was quite a shock too. But you get use to
                  > > > > > > it. But as I say, it is only one more hurdle to climb, there is MORE.
                  > > > > > > There is the uniting of Eternity with Time. THAT will rattle your
                  > > > > > > marbles. But that is a bridge too far yet and they will not know what
                  > > > > > > the frig you are talking about. Such is life here eh. But I give you a
                  > > > > > > little tip – go and ask the buddhists and the gnostics, for they
                  > > > > > > know EVERYTHING ;- )))) Or they make be-lief that they do :- )))) They
                  > > > > > > are WORSE than academics from Oxbridge and other such halls of academia.
                  > > > > > > A little learning eh :- )))) By the way, if you write books then you
                  > > > > > > will learn a lot by way of feed-back. Learn and Grow – assuming that
                  > > > > > > you want to go on further that is.
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Thanks for your story.
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Dick Richardson
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • Mary
                  Bryan, Then what do you mean by saying, Old philosophy of Descartes, Sartre, Kierkegaard, Schopenhauer, etc...have in my life, been thrown out with the dirty
                  Message 8 of 15 , Sep 20, 2012
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Bryan,

                    Then what do you mean by saying, "Old philosophy of Descartes, Sartre, Kierkegaard, Schopenhauer, etc...have in my life, been thrown out with the dirty bathwater they put in." And Camus is by no means "doom and gloom." His fictional characters experienced existential dilemmas. Or do you mean certain philosophers once influenced you but that you've outgrown them. This however doesn't mean they dirtied the bath water. If anything they've helped you throw out your own. It certainly doesn't indicate they have no value for others.

                    Did your NDE help you not to fear death? Did it ease the loss of loved ones?

                    Mary

                    --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Bryan Junius" <bryan.junius@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Mary,
                    >
                    > My response is not contradictory because Existentialism forces you to find meaning in a meaningless world as to most which that may appear. There is no rejection in that idea.
                    >
                    > My NDE as it relates to existentialism basically means just what I stated: I don't fight anymore to live (this by no means states i seek death though). The doom and gloom of existentialism does not appeal to me as albert camus made it sound or the profoundness of Kafka's "Metamorphosis". Finding spirituality and enlightment in Existentialism is what every individual on planet Earth hopes to achieve--however, the exceptions, argue like Nietszche, that some chase in another direction to find superiority among individuals, and thus, we have the "Will to Power." And in a sense makes great argument about why individuals choose the higher morals for the sum or those who choose themselves as the moral of freedom.
                    >
                    > regards,
                    >
                    > Bryan
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Your response seems contradictory; you've found your own way yet reject Existentialism.
                    > > In determining your own values and giving life your own meaning, how has Existentialism thwarted you? I think, however, that Peter's question was related more to your risk taking and near death experience. How do/did these relate to your understanding of Existentialism?
                    > >
                    > > Mary
                    > >
                    > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Bryan Junius" <bryan.junius@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Peter,
                    > > >
                    > > > Thank you for reading.
                    > > >
                    > > > To answer your question as honestly as possible on how I process my everyday experience through the lens of existentialism is kind of challenging. I have studied philosophy for a very, very, very long time as far back as i can remember.
                    > > >
                    > > > I have seen alot of things, been around the world, been in the military, met a lot of strange people that I came to know in my passings, have had some very brilliant conversations with theoretical physicists, philosophers, buddhists, Christians, and the every day Joe. I find all my conversations, writings, thoughts in my memoirs and personal journals have led me to this point in my life...that i dont have to fight anymore to live.
                    > > >
                    > > > That the cares of the world in political matters and struggles of world domination are beyond me. I see that my own struggles in life was living like the "Stranger" from an Albert Camus novel. I was my own enemy. My own demon. My own savior. My own personal vendetta. My silent scream. My own nirvana. My own peace of mind.
                    > > >
                    > > > Old philosophy of Descartes, Sartre, Kierkegaard, Schopenhauer, etc...have in my life, been thrown out with the dirty bathwater they put in.
                    > > >
                    > > > regards,
                    > > >
                    > > > Bryan
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@> wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Peter ciccariello <ciccariello@> wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Of all the things I do on the internet, I think reading and following the
                    > > > > > posts on Existlist is the most baffling for me. I have come to consider, in
                    > > > > > my inner silence, these disembodied voices as something closely resembling
                    > > > > > friends. Although reactively dismissing some and cherishing others, it
                    > > > > > above all else keeps me somehow…well… in the conversation.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > What a lovely sentiment, Peter.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Bryan… your post intrigued me on several levels. First, being so very
                    > > > > > familiar with that train line having traveled it decades ago every day, the
                    > > > > > LIRR from Port Washington to Manhattan holds a special fascination to me.
                    > > > > > My younger brother in fact, did what you and your friends did, every day
                    > > > > > after school was out. Thankfully none ever experienced an incident like you
                    > > > > > did that day.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > I am curious as to how to see or process your experience, and NDE for that
                    > > > > > matter through the lens of Existentianlism. Alittle googling brought up
                    > > > > > this thread from 2008. I guess we have all been here before?
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I have an answer to your query of Bryan, but will wait for his response. I consider your question extremely relevant for those who might come to 'existlist' for this very purpose.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Always nice to hear from you,
                    > > > > Mary
                    > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > *[existlist] Re: Relevance of NDEs to Existentialism*
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist/message/43855
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > - Peter
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > ____________________
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 12:52 PM, Bryan Junius <bryan.junius@>wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > > **
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > When I was young I used to walk the train tracks in Queens, sometimes as
                    > > > > > > far as Little Neck. The railroad tracks i use to walk were not the busy
                    > > > > > > type; a train maybe every 45 minutes to an hour. I can still remember the
                    > > > > > > train conductors yelling at me, "Hey kids! Get off the damn tracks!! You'll
                    > > > > > > get killed!!"
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > These trains use to commute people back and and forth from Flushing Queens
                    > > > > > > out toward Great Neck which was much further and right after Little Neck.
                    > > > > > > Use to have a friend go with me, his name was Frankie and 5 years older
                    > > > > > > than me at the time. Sometimes he like to bully people because of his big
                    > > > > > > build, even me now and again. Why we hung out every now and then still
                    > > > > > > alludes me today.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > We would get up real early in the morning to do this because the hike was
                    > > > > > > kind of long. We would bring a small backpack, maybe a few sandwiches to
                    > > > > > > snack on and some drinks.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > When we got to our destination. It was like a bay, and a small reef type
                    > > > > > > beach with white-beige sand. We threw rocks out there. Built a small camp
                    > > > > > > fire. Dug up small piss clams (thats what we used to call them as they were
                    > > > > > > cleaning out their penis like stems, or we would accidentally sit on them
                    > > > > > > as they pee'd out.)
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > When the afternoon came around we would start to pack things up and head
                    > > > > > > on back the direction we came from. I remember the day being warm and
                    > > > > > > pleasant. No jacket needed that day. The tracks were wooded and rocks all
                    > > > > > > over the place. I was known to have great balance back then. Frankie and I
                    > > > > > > were walking side by side that day. At some point and time Frankie offered
                    > > > > > > me a life saver; the spearimint kind. I guess it was at this point I
                    > > > > > > reached for the candy being offered and started to fall out of my hand. Not
                    > > > > > > paying much attention that i was on the left of Frankie, which meant i was
                    > > > > > > by the third rail and only a wooden beam worn down by weather was between
                    > > > > > > me and it; so as i reached with my left hand for the lifesaver, I tripped
                    > > > > > > and strangely enough, my arm goes right between the wooden beam and the
                    > > > > > > third rail. That moment i became electrified like no coherent words today
                    > > > > > > could describe that one event. I jolted. I buckled. Shaking like riding a
                    > > > > > > bronco. I was magnetized to that rail. I remember thinking, painfully, I am
                    > > > > > > going to die...here and now. I remember my friend trying to reach for me
                    > > > > > > and grab me with his bare hands to pull me by my shirt collar but i could
                    > > > > > > sense the fear in him and he quickly backed away and started walking away -
                    > > > > > > creepily enough, I had always sworn he started whistling as he done so.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > There I am. Waiting for my heart to explode. The volts pouring thru my
                    > > > > > > body like a live wire. The sheer intensity i was feeling like i was on fire
                    > > > > > > from the inside. There is no escape from this death grip im in, I had
                    > > > > > > thought. As Frankie is walking away, my head jolts right. I have no control
                    > > > > > > of my muscles as they spasm like a tornado. In that split second, what
                    > > > > > > seemed like eternity, something glowed, then something opened. It was like
                    > > > > > > a hole in the air. The purest white void. A smell in the air. I thought it
                    > > > > > > was me starting to burn. The void grew and flickered. Then something
                    > > > > > > orangish-like glow. No. It was something else. Cause it was walking toward
                    > > > > > > or gliding to me. It had a body but it was just an outline. It had wings i
                    > > > > > > thought.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Then it entered me. It was like something took over. My right arm. The
                    > > > > > > free one. It quickly snapped up and reached for my left arm. The one that
                    > > > > > > was deathbolted to the third rail and yanked it out with some unknown
                    > > > > > > strength that i could not do.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Then i felt a release. It was gone. I was still in shock touching myself
                    > > > > > > all over. Wondering if i was dead or what just happened. I looked at
                    > > > > > > myself. My hands. My arms. No burns. No marks. My heart still beating
                    > > > > > > rapidly. Can still see. At that point I started crying like the clouds
                    > > > > > > opened up. Frankie was in the distance. I could still see him. Then I ran
                    > > > > > > after him as far as my feet could carry me. When I did catch up with him
                    > > > > > > and grabbed him he screamed bloody murder, "Don't touch me!!!!Don't touch
                    > > > > > > me!!!" He was freaked out wondering if i was a ghost or the walking dead.
                    > > > > > > He asked me what happened. Never to bother ask me if i was alright. But i
                    > > > > > > showed him my hands. There was no burns or anything and i was not dead...at
                    > > > > > > all. He was surprised by that. I don't know how many volts or amps were
                    > > > > > > going through me that day. I've heard generally a third rail carries about
                    > > > > > > 60 volts across it enough to blow up tin like metal. The strangest thing,
                    > > > > > > was not just leaving the terrifying experience intact, it was how i got
                    > > > > > > out. So if there are things out there living in different domains, I have a
                    > > > > > > reluctant ponderance to agree on those terms.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > And yes. This is a true story. Implausible? Yes. Would i believe it if you
                    > > > > > > told me? No.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Thanks for listening.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > .--- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Dick." <richard@> wrote:
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > Maybe?
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > [ I am forty seven and I had near death experience three years ago. I
                    > > > > > > > was in green pastures through which there was a river with even greener
                    > > > > > > > pastures on the other side of the bridge. I was about to cross the
                    > > > > > > > bridge but got an understanding from what seemed like a person on the
                    > > > > > > > other side of that bridge that I could not go on and that I had to come
                    > > > > > > > back and get on with my life. It was real. Yet you talk of going into
                    > > > > > > > death and yet coming back here into the same life. Maybe there are
                    > > > > > > > different modes of death. ]
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > Maybe does not figure in my life, either I know something or I don't
                    > > > > > > > know it. I read hundreds if not thousands of NDE's over a twenty
                    > > > > > > > year period, they are all different, yet with similarities. But they are
                    > > > > > > > NOT death experiences, they are near death experiences. When you are
                    > > > > > > > GONE and exist no more than THAT is death. That is what happened. GONE.
                    > > > > > > > Was no more. Bring me a person if you can find one who has known death
                    > > > > > > > and we will talk. I have never found one yet who had not also found that
                    > > > > > > > eternal domain on the other side of it. But the person that exists
                    > > > > > > > there, and although still ME, is nothing like a human being that exists
                    > > > > > > > here. IPSO. It is (I AM) the first emanation of cognitive life. It is
                    > > > > > > > primordial conscious existence. It is going home. But there is more than
                    > > > > > > > the beginning.
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > MAYBE there is another kind of death. Highly probably I would imagine.
                    > > > > > > > But I don't KNOW it. It is a maybe as far as I am concerned. MAYBE
                    > > > > > > > there is just a sleep of oblivion from which one never wakes up. But IF
                    > > > > > > > that were SO then nobody would ever know it. You cannot KNOW not
                    > > > > > > > existing. So there would be nobody to talk of it.
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > However, this mystic death is not like falling asleep, it is the
                    > > > > > > > experience of ANNIHILATION, the experience of being extinguished. You
                    > > > > > > > are there while being kind of melted down. NOT the nicest experience
                    > > > > > > > that one could live through. But what is on the other side if it is
                    > > > > > > > worth it. Mystical experience and moving on IS NOT all fun and games.
                    > > > > > > > But how could you turn a one pint jug into a two pint jug other than to
                    > > > > > > > melt it down and start again in a new mould?
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > What you lived through was an introverted ARKON image emanation, a
                    > > > > > > > common psychic archetype. And it has taught you something has it not. Be
                    > > > > > > > grateful for that. But, as I say, bring me the person who has known NOT
                    > > > > > > > existing and we will chat.
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > MAYBE I will win the lottery today. And maybe not. MAYBE has no part to
                    > > > > > > > play in my life. I take what comes and have to get on with it. But, for
                    > > > > > > > what it is worth to you then that mystic death and resurrection event
                    > > > > > > > and then coming back here again after all that into the same lifetime
                    > > > > > > > does seem to be quite rare. It was quite a shock too. But you get use to
                    > > > > > > > it. But as I say, it is only one more hurdle to climb, there is MORE.
                    > > > > > > > There is the uniting of Eternity with Time. THAT will rattle your
                    > > > > > > > marbles. But that is a bridge too far yet and they will not know what
                    > > > > > > > the frig you are talking about. Such is life here eh. But I give you a
                    > > > > > > > little tip – go and ask the buddhists and the gnostics, for they
                    > > > > > > > know EVERYTHING ;- )))) Or they make be-lief that they do :- )))) They
                    > > > > > > > are WORSE than academics from Oxbridge and other such halls of academia.
                    > > > > > > > A little learning eh :- )))) By the way, if you write books then you
                    > > > > > > > will learn a lot by way of feed-back. Learn and Grow – assuming that
                    > > > > > > > you want to go on further that is.
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > Thanks for your story.
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > Dick Richardson
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • Bryan Junius
                    Mary, Sorry if I use expressions that may confuse people. I will try to be more to the point. What I was trying to say...these philosophers who I studied way
                    Message 9 of 15 , Sep 20, 2012
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Mary,

                      Sorry if I use expressions that may confuse people. I will try to be
                      more to the point.

                      What I was trying to say...these philosophers who I studied way back when have become disenchanting. The problems they addressed then are not really problems anymore, like the mind/body issue, or the world is filled with dread and anxiety, or that hell is other people, or existence precedes essence. All this hoopla has been beaten to a dead horse...and it is basically...kind of ridiculous when you really think about it in the 21st century. So I don't address them anymore in any serious debate. And yes, I have outgrown them :)

                      But if others enjoy them...then that is fine too. At least their philosophy was good for mental stimulation.

                      As referring to Camus, such as his novel "The Stranger", may not sound doom and gloom, but it certainly did not make you joyous to be one of his fictional characters either.

                      As far as my NDE. I don't think I ever feared death really. I have always had a strong feeling that i was a very old, old soul and curious about humanity and what made them ticked. What made them sad. Why people died, etc....ergo my beginnings into existentialism, humanism, behaviourism, and all sorts of wonderful social sciences.

                      regards,

                      Bryan

                      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Bryan,
                      >
                      > Then what do you mean by saying, "Old philosophy of Descartes, Sartre, Kierkegaard, Schopenhauer, etc...have in my life, been thrown out with the dirty bathwater they put in." And Camus is by no means "doom and gloom." His fictional characters experienced existential dilemmas. Or do you mean certain philosophers once influenced you but that you've outgrown them. This however doesn't mean they dirtied the bath water. If anything they've helped you throw out your own. It certainly doesn't indicate they have no value for others.
                      >
                      > Did your NDE help you not to fear death? Did it ease the loss of loved ones?
                      >
                      > Mary
                      >
                      > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Bryan Junius" <bryan.junius@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Mary,
                      > >
                      > > My response is not contradictory because Existentialism forces you to find meaning in a meaningless world as to most which that may appear. There is no rejection in that idea.
                      > >
                      > > My NDE as it relates to existentialism basically means just what I stated: I don't fight anymore to live (this by no means states i seek death though). The doom and gloom of existentialism does not appeal to me as albert camus made it sound or the profoundness of Kafka's "Metamorphosis". Finding spirituality and enlightment in Existentialism is what every individual on planet Earth hopes to achieve--however, the exceptions, argue like Nietszche, that some chase in another direction to find superiority among individuals, and thus, we have the "Will to Power." And in a sense makes great argument about why individuals choose the higher morals for the sum or those who choose themselves as the moral of freedom.
                      > >
                      > > regards,
                      > >
                      > > Bryan
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Your response seems contradictory; you've found your own way yet reject Existentialism.
                      > > > In determining your own values and giving life your own meaning, how has Existentialism thwarted you? I think, however, that Peter's question was related more to your risk taking and near death experience. How do/did these relate to your understanding of Existentialism?
                      > > >
                      > > > Mary
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Bryan Junius" <bryan.junius@> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Peter,
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Thank you for reading.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > To answer your question as honestly as possible on how I process my everyday experience through the lens of existentialism is kind of challenging. I have studied philosophy for a very, very, very long time as far back as i can remember.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I have seen alot of things, been around the world, been in the military, met a lot of strange people that I came to know in my passings, have had some very brilliant conversations with theoretical physicists, philosophers, buddhists, Christians, and the every day Joe. I find all my conversations, writings, thoughts in my memoirs and personal journals have led me to this point in my life...that i dont have to fight anymore to live.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > That the cares of the world in political matters and struggles of world domination are beyond me. I see that my own struggles in life was living like the "Stranger" from an Albert Camus novel. I was my own enemy. My own demon. My own savior. My own personal vendetta. My silent scream. My own nirvana. My own peace of mind.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Old philosophy of Descartes, Sartre, Kierkegaard, Schopenhauer, etc...have in my life, been thrown out with the dirty bathwater they put in.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > regards,
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Bryan
                      > > > >
                      > > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@> wrote:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Peter ciccariello <ciccariello@> wrote:
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Of all the things I do on the internet, I think reading and following the
                      > > > > > > posts on Existlist is the most baffling for me. I have come to consider, in
                      > > > > > > my inner silence, these disembodied voices as something closely resembling
                      > > > > > > friends. Although reactively dismissing some and cherishing others, it
                      > > > > > > above all else keeps me somehow…well… in the conversation.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > What a lovely sentiment, Peter.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Bryan… your post intrigued me on several levels. First, being so very
                      > > > > > > familiar with that train line having traveled it decades ago every day, the
                      > > > > > > LIRR from Port Washington to Manhattan holds a special fascination to me.
                      > > > > > > My younger brother in fact, did what you and your friends did, every day
                      > > > > > > after school was out. Thankfully none ever experienced an incident like you
                      > > > > > > did that day.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > I am curious as to how to see or process your experience, and NDE for that
                      > > > > > > matter through the lens of Existentianlism. Alittle googling brought up
                      > > > > > > this thread from 2008. I guess we have all been here before?
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > I have an answer to your query of Bryan, but will wait for his response. I consider your question extremely relevant for those who might come to 'existlist' for this very purpose.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Always nice to hear from you,
                      > > > > > Mary
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > *[existlist] Re: Relevance of NDEs to Existentialism*
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist/message/43855
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > - Peter
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > ____________________
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 12:52 PM, Bryan Junius <bryan.junius@>wrote:
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > **
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > When I was young I used to walk the train tracks in Queens, sometimes as
                      > > > > > > > far as Little Neck. The railroad tracks i use to walk were not the busy
                      > > > > > > > type; a train maybe every 45 minutes to an hour. I can still remember the
                      > > > > > > > train conductors yelling at me, "Hey kids! Get off the damn tracks!! You'll
                      > > > > > > > get killed!!"
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > These trains use to commute people back and and forth from Flushing Queens
                      > > > > > > > out toward Great Neck which was much further and right after Little Neck.
                      > > > > > > > Use to have a friend go with me, his name was Frankie and 5 years older
                      > > > > > > > than me at the time. Sometimes he like to bully people because of his big
                      > > > > > > > build, even me now and again. Why we hung out every now and then still
                      > > > > > > > alludes me today.
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > We would get up real early in the morning to do this because the hike was
                      > > > > > > > kind of long. We would bring a small backpack, maybe a few sandwiches to
                      > > > > > > > snack on and some drinks.
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > When we got to our destination. It was like a bay, and a small reef type
                      > > > > > > > beach with white-beige sand. We threw rocks out there. Built a small camp
                      > > > > > > > fire. Dug up small piss clams (thats what we used to call them as they were
                      > > > > > > > cleaning out their penis like stems, or we would accidentally sit on them
                      > > > > > > > as they pee'd out.)
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > When the afternoon came around we would start to pack things up and head
                      > > > > > > > on back the direction we came from. I remember the day being warm and
                      > > > > > > > pleasant. No jacket needed that day. The tracks were wooded and rocks all
                      > > > > > > > over the place. I was known to have great balance back then. Frankie and I
                      > > > > > > > were walking side by side that day. At some point and time Frankie offered
                      > > > > > > > me a life saver; the spearimint kind. I guess it was at this point I
                      > > > > > > > reached for the candy being offered and started to fall out of my hand. Not
                      > > > > > > > paying much attention that i was on the left of Frankie, which meant i was
                      > > > > > > > by the third rail and only a wooden beam worn down by weather was between
                      > > > > > > > me and it; so as i reached with my left hand for the lifesaver, I tripped
                      > > > > > > > and strangely enough, my arm goes right between the wooden beam and the
                      > > > > > > > third rail. That moment i became electrified like no coherent words today
                      > > > > > > > could describe that one event. I jolted. I buckled. Shaking like riding a
                      > > > > > > > bronco. I was magnetized to that rail. I remember thinking, painfully, I am
                      > > > > > > > going to die...here and now. I remember my friend trying to reach for me
                      > > > > > > > and grab me with his bare hands to pull me by my shirt collar but i could
                      > > > > > > > sense the fear in him and he quickly backed away and started walking away -
                      > > > > > > > creepily enough, I had always sworn he started whistling as he done so.
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > There I am. Waiting for my heart to explode. The volts pouring thru my
                      > > > > > > > body like a live wire. The sheer intensity i was feeling like i was on fire
                      > > > > > > > from the inside. There is no escape from this death grip im in, I had
                      > > > > > > > thought. As Frankie is walking away, my head jolts right. I have no control
                      > > > > > > > of my muscles as they spasm like a tornado. In that split second, what
                      > > > > > > > seemed like eternity, something glowed, then something opened. It was like
                      > > > > > > > a hole in the air. The purest white void. A smell in the air. I thought it
                      > > > > > > > was me starting to burn. The void grew and flickered. Then something
                      > > > > > > > orangish-like glow. No. It was something else. Cause it was walking toward
                      > > > > > > > or gliding to me. It had a body but it was just an outline. It had wings i
                      > > > > > > > thought.
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > Then it entered me. It was like something took over. My right arm. The
                      > > > > > > > free one. It quickly snapped up and reached for my left arm. The one that
                      > > > > > > > was deathbolted to the third rail and yanked it out with some unknown
                      > > > > > > > strength that i could not do.
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > Then i felt a release. It was gone. I was still in shock touching myself
                      > > > > > > > all over. Wondering if i was dead or what just happened. I looked at
                      > > > > > > > myself. My hands. My arms. No burns. No marks. My heart still beating
                      > > > > > > > rapidly. Can still see. At that point I started crying like the clouds
                      > > > > > > > opened up. Frankie was in the distance. I could still see him. Then I ran
                      > > > > > > > after him as far as my feet could carry me. When I did catch up with him
                      > > > > > > > and grabbed him he screamed bloody murder, "Don't touch me!!!!Don't touch
                      > > > > > > > me!!!" He was freaked out wondering if i was a ghost or the walking dead.
                      > > > > > > > He asked me what happened. Never to bother ask me if i was alright. But i
                      > > > > > > > showed him my hands. There was no burns or anything and i was not dead...at
                      > > > > > > > all. He was surprised by that. I don't know how many volts or amps were
                      > > > > > > > going through me that day. I've heard generally a third rail carries about
                      > > > > > > > 60 volts across it enough to blow up tin like metal. The strangest thing,
                      > > > > > > > was not just leaving the terrifying experience intact, it was how i got
                      > > > > > > > out. So if there are things out there living in different domains, I have a
                      > > > > > > > reluctant ponderance to agree on those terms.
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > And yes. This is a true story. Implausible? Yes. Would i believe it if you
                      > > > > > > > told me? No.
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > Thanks for listening.
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > .--- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Dick." <richard@> wrote:
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > Maybe?
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > [ I am forty seven and I had near death experience three years ago. I
                      > > > > > > > > was in green pastures through which there was a river with even greener
                      > > > > > > > > pastures on the other side of the bridge. I was about to cross the
                      > > > > > > > > bridge but got an understanding from what seemed like a person on the
                      > > > > > > > > other side of that bridge that I could not go on and that I had to come
                      > > > > > > > > back and get on with my life. It was real. Yet you talk of going into
                      > > > > > > > > death and yet coming back here into the same life. Maybe there are
                      > > > > > > > > different modes of death. ]
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > Maybe does not figure in my life, either I know something or I don't
                      > > > > > > > > know it. I read hundreds if not thousands of NDE's over a twenty
                      > > > > > > > > year period, they are all different, yet with similarities. But they are
                      > > > > > > > > NOT death experiences, they are near death experiences. When you are
                      > > > > > > > > GONE and exist no more than THAT is death. That is what happened. GONE.
                      > > > > > > > > Was no more. Bring me a person if you can find one who has known death
                      > > > > > > > > and we will talk. I have never found one yet who had not also found that
                      > > > > > > > > eternal domain on the other side of it. But the person that exists
                      > > > > > > > > there, and although still ME, is nothing like a human being that exists
                      > > > > > > > > here. IPSO. It is (I AM) the first emanation of cognitive life. It is
                      > > > > > > > > primordial conscious existence. It is going home. But there is more than
                      > > > > > > > > the beginning.
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > MAYBE there is another kind of death. Highly probably I would imagine.
                      > > > > > > > > But I don't KNOW it. It is a maybe as far as I am concerned. MAYBE
                      > > > > > > > > there is just a sleep of oblivion from which one never wakes up. But IF
                      > > > > > > > > that were SO then nobody would ever know it. You cannot KNOW not
                      > > > > > > > > existing. So there would be nobody to talk of it.
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > However, this mystic death is not like falling asleep, it is the
                      > > > > > > > > experience of ANNIHILATION, the experience of being extinguished. You
                      > > > > > > > > are there while being kind of melted down. NOT the nicest experience
                      > > > > > > > > that one could live through. But what is on the other side if it is
                      > > > > > > > > worth it. Mystical experience and moving on IS NOT all fun and games.
                      > > > > > > > > But how could you turn a one pint jug into a two pint jug other than to
                      > > > > > > > > melt it down and start again in a new mould?
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > What you lived through was an introverted ARKON image emanation, a
                      > > > > > > > > common psychic archetype. And it has taught you something has it not. Be
                      > > > > > > > > grateful for that. But, as I say, bring me the person who has known NOT
                      > > > > > > > > existing and we will chat.
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > MAYBE I will win the lottery today. And maybe not. MAYBE has no part to
                      > > > > > > > > play in my life. I take what comes and have to get on with it. But, for
                      > > > > > > > > what it is worth to you then that mystic death and resurrection event
                      > > > > > > > > and then coming back here again after all that into the same lifetime
                      > > > > > > > > does seem to be quite rare. It was quite a shock too. But you get use to
                      > > > > > > > > it. But as I say, it is only one more hurdle to climb, there is MORE.
                      > > > > > > > > There is the uniting of Eternity with Time. THAT will rattle your
                      > > > > > > > > marbles. But that is a bridge too far yet and they will not know what
                      > > > > > > > > the frig you are talking about. Such is life here eh. But I give you a
                      > > > > > > > > little tip – go and ask the buddhists and the gnostics, for they
                      > > > > > > > > know EVERYTHING ;- )))) Or they make be-lief that they do :- )))) They
                      > > > > > > > > are WORSE than academics from Oxbridge and other such halls of academia.
                      > > > > > > > > A little learning eh :- )))) By the way, if you write books then you
                      > > > > > > > > will learn a lot by way of feed-back. Learn and Grow – assuming that
                      > > > > > > > > you want to go on further that is.
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > Thanks for your story.
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > Dick Richardson
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • Mary
                      I don t think these problems have gone away. It s just that in the light of psychoanalysis and science, post-Existentialist philosophers began to frame them
                      Message 10 of 15 , Sep 20, 2012
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I don't think these problems have gone away. It's just that in the light of psychoanalysis and science, post-Existentialist philosophers began to frame them differently. Terminology has changed and pharmaceuticals, drugs, alcohol, and diversions mask anxiety.

                        You should feel quite at home, since philosophers are much maligned here. Nobody mentions losing someone they love to insanity, debilitating suffering or death, and some even prophesy what happens to everyone else when they die.

                        Mary

                        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Bryan Junius" <bryan.junius@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Mary,
                        >
                        > Sorry if I use expressions that may confuse people. I will try to be
                        > more to the point.
                        >
                        > What I was trying to say...these philosophers who I studied way back when have become disenchanting. The problems they addressed then are not really problems anymore, like the mind/body issue, or the world is filled with dread and anxiety, or that hell is other people, or existence precedes essence. All this hoopla has been beaten to a dead horse...and it is basically...kind of ridiculous when you really think about it in the 21st century. So I don't address them anymore in any serious debate. And yes, I have outgrown them :)
                        >
                        > But if others enjoy them...then that is fine too. At least their philosophy was good for mental stimulation.
                        >
                        > As referring to Camus, such as his novel "The Stranger", may not sound doom and gloom, but it certainly did not make you joyous to be one of his fictional characters either.
                        >
                        > As far as my NDE. I don't think I ever feared death really. I have always had a strong feeling that i was a very old, old soul and curious about humanity and what made them ticked. What made them sad. Why people died, etc....ergo my beginnings into existentialism, humanism, behaviourism, and all sorts of wonderful social sciences.
                        >
                        > regards,
                        >
                        > Bryan
                        >
                        > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Bryan,
                        > >
                        > > Then what do you mean by saying, "Old philosophy of Descartes, Sartre, Kierkegaard, Schopenhauer, etc...have in my life, been thrown out with the dirty bathwater they put in." And Camus is by no means "doom and gloom." His fictional characters experienced existential dilemmas. Or do you mean certain philosophers once influenced you but that you've outgrown them. This however doesn't mean they dirtied the bath water. If anything they've helped you throw out your own. It certainly doesn't indicate they have no value for others.
                        > >
                        > > Did your NDE help you not to fear death? Did it ease the loss of loved ones?
                        > >
                        > > Mary
                        > >
                        > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Bryan Junius" <bryan.junius@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Mary,
                        > > >
                        > > > My response is not contradictory because Existentialism forces you to find meaning in a meaningless world as to most which that may appear. There is no rejection in that idea.
                        > > >
                        > > > My NDE as it relates to existentialism basically means just what I stated: I don't fight anymore to live (this by no means states i seek death though). The doom and gloom of existentialism does not appeal to me as albert camus made it sound or the profoundness of Kafka's "Metamorphosis". Finding spirituality and enlightment in Existentialism is what every individual on planet Earth hopes to achieve--however, the exceptions, argue like Nietszche, that some chase in another direction to find superiority among individuals, and thus, we have the "Will to Power." And in a sense makes great argument about why individuals choose the higher morals for the sum or those who choose themselves as the moral of freedom.
                        > > >
                        > > > regards,
                        > > >
                        > > > Bryan
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@> wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Your response seems contradictory; you've found your own way yet reject Existentialism.
                        > > > > In determining your own values and giving life your own meaning, how has Existentialism thwarted you? I think, however, that Peter's question was related more to your risk taking and near death experience. How do/did these relate to your understanding of Existentialism?
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Mary
                        > > > >
                        > > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Bryan Junius" <bryan.junius@> wrote:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Peter,
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Thank you for reading.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > To answer your question as honestly as possible on how I process my everyday experience through the lens of existentialism is kind of challenging. I have studied philosophy for a very, very, very long time as far back as i can remember.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > I have seen alot of things, been around the world, been in the military, met a lot of strange people that I came to know in my passings, have had some very brilliant conversations with theoretical physicists, philosophers, buddhists, Christians, and the every day Joe. I find all my conversations, writings, thoughts in my memoirs and personal journals have led me to this point in my life...that i dont have to fight anymore to live.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > That the cares of the world in political matters and struggles of world domination are beyond me. I see that my own struggles in life was living like the "Stranger" from an Albert Camus novel. I was my own enemy. My own demon. My own savior. My own personal vendetta. My silent scream. My own nirvana. My own peace of mind.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Old philosophy of Descartes, Sartre, Kierkegaard, Schopenhauer, etc...have in my life, been thrown out with the dirty bathwater they put in.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > regards,
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Bryan
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@> wrote:
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Peter ciccariello <ciccariello@> wrote:
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > Of all the things I do on the internet, I think reading and following the
                        > > > > > > > posts on Existlist is the most baffling for me. I have come to consider, in
                        > > > > > > > my inner silence, these disembodied voices as something closely resembling
                        > > > > > > > friends. Although reactively dismissing some and cherishing others, it
                        > > > > > > > above all else keeps me somehow…well… in the conversation.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > What a lovely sentiment, Peter.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > Bryan… your post intrigued me on several levels. First, being so very
                        > > > > > > > familiar with that train line having traveled it decades ago every day, the
                        > > > > > > > LIRR from Port Washington to Manhattan holds a special fascination to me.
                        > > > > > > > My younger brother in fact, did what you and your friends did, every day
                        > > > > > > > after school was out. Thankfully none ever experienced an incident like you
                        > > > > > > > did that day.
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > I am curious as to how to see or process your experience, and NDE for that
                        > > > > > > > matter through the lens of Existentianlism. Alittle googling brought up
                        > > > > > > > this thread from 2008. I guess we have all been here before?
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > I have an answer to your query of Bryan, but will wait for his response. I consider your question extremely relevant for those who might come to 'existlist' for this very purpose.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Always nice to hear from you,
                        > > > > > > Mary
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > *[existlist] Re: Relevance of NDEs to Existentialism*
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist/message/43855
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > - Peter
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > ____________________
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 12:52 PM, Bryan Junius <bryan.junius@>wrote:
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > **
                        > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > When I was young I used to walk the train tracks in Queens, sometimes as
                        > > > > > > > > far as Little Neck. The railroad tracks i use to walk were not the busy
                        > > > > > > > > type; a train maybe every 45 minutes to an hour. I can still remember the
                        > > > > > > > > train conductors yelling at me, "Hey kids! Get off the damn tracks!! You'll
                        > > > > > > > > get killed!!"
                        > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > These trains use to commute people back and and forth from Flushing Queens
                        > > > > > > > > out toward Great Neck which was much further and right after Little Neck.
                        > > > > > > > > Use to have a friend go with me, his name was Frankie and 5 years older
                        > > > > > > > > than me at the time. Sometimes he like to bully people because of his big
                        > > > > > > > > build, even me now and again. Why we hung out every now and then still
                        > > > > > > > > alludes me today.
                        > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > We would get up real early in the morning to do this because the hike was
                        > > > > > > > > kind of long. We would bring a small backpack, maybe a few sandwiches to
                        > > > > > > > > snack on and some drinks.
                        > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > When we got to our destination. It was like a bay, and a small reef type
                        > > > > > > > > beach with white-beige sand. We threw rocks out there. Built a small camp
                        > > > > > > > > fire. Dug up small piss clams (thats what we used to call them as they were
                        > > > > > > > > cleaning out their penis like stems, or we would accidentally sit on them
                        > > > > > > > > as they pee'd out.)
                        > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > When the afternoon came around we would start to pack things up and head
                        > > > > > > > > on back the direction we came from. I remember the day being warm and
                        > > > > > > > > pleasant. No jacket needed that day. The tracks were wooded and rocks all
                        > > > > > > > > over the place. I was known to have great balance back then. Frankie and I
                        > > > > > > > > were walking side by side that day. At some point and time Frankie offered
                        > > > > > > > > me a life saver; the spearimint kind. I guess it was at this point I
                        > > > > > > > > reached for the candy being offered and started to fall out of my hand. Not
                        > > > > > > > > paying much attention that i was on the left of Frankie, which meant i was
                        > > > > > > > > by the third rail and only a wooden beam worn down by weather was between
                        > > > > > > > > me and it; so as i reached with my left hand for the lifesaver, I tripped
                        > > > > > > > > and strangely enough, my arm goes right between the wooden beam and the
                        > > > > > > > > third rail. That moment i became electrified like no coherent words today
                        > > > > > > > > could describe that one event. I jolted. I buckled. Shaking like riding a
                        > > > > > > > > bronco. I was magnetized to that rail. I remember thinking, painfully, I am
                        > > > > > > > > going to die...here and now. I remember my friend trying to reach for me
                        > > > > > > > > and grab me with his bare hands to pull me by my shirt collar but i could
                        > > > > > > > > sense the fear in him and he quickly backed away and started walking away -
                        > > > > > > > > creepily enough, I had always sworn he started whistling as he done so.
                        > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > There I am. Waiting for my heart to explode. The volts pouring thru my
                        > > > > > > > > body like a live wire. The sheer intensity i was feeling like i was on fire
                        > > > > > > > > from the inside. There is no escape from this death grip im in, I had
                        > > > > > > > > thought. As Frankie is walking away, my head jolts right. I have no control
                        > > > > > > > > of my muscles as they spasm like a tornado. In that split second, what
                        > > > > > > > > seemed like eternity, something glowed, then something opened. It was like
                        > > > > > > > > a hole in the air. The purest white void. A smell in the air. I thought it
                        > > > > > > > > was me starting to burn. The void grew and flickered. Then something
                        > > > > > > > > orangish-like glow. No. It was something else. Cause it was walking toward
                        > > > > > > > > or gliding to me. It had a body but it was just an outline. It had wings i
                        > > > > > > > > thought.
                        > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > Then it entered me. It was like something took over. My right arm. The
                        > > > > > > > > free one. It quickly snapped up and reached for my left arm. The one that
                        > > > > > > > > was deathbolted to the third rail and yanked it out with some unknown
                        > > > > > > > > strength that i could not do.
                        > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > Then i felt a release. It was gone. I was still in shock touching myself
                        > > > > > > > > all over. Wondering if i was dead or what just happened. I looked at
                        > > > > > > > > myself. My hands. My arms. No burns. No marks. My heart still beating
                        > > > > > > > > rapidly. Can still see. At that point I started crying like the clouds
                        > > > > > > > > opened up. Frankie was in the distance. I could still see him. Then I ran
                        > > > > > > > > after him as far as my feet could carry me. When I did catch up with him
                        > > > > > > > > and grabbed him he screamed bloody murder, "Don't touch me!!!!Don't touch
                        > > > > > > > > me!!!" He was freaked out wondering if i was a ghost or the walking dead.
                        > > > > > > > > He asked me what happened. Never to bother ask me if i was alright. But i
                        > > > > > > > > showed him my hands. There was no burns or anything and i was not dead...at
                        > > > > > > > > all. He was surprised by that. I don't know how many volts or amps were
                        > > > > > > > > going through me that day. I've heard generally a third rail carries about
                        > > > > > > > > 60 volts across it enough to blow up tin like metal. The strangest thing,
                        > > > > > > > > was not just leaving the terrifying experience intact, it was how i got
                        > > > > > > > > out. So if there are things out there living in different domains, I have a
                        > > > > > > > > reluctant ponderance to agree on those terms.
                        > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > And yes. This is a true story. Implausible? Yes. Would i believe it if you
                        > > > > > > > > told me? No.
                        > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > Thanks for listening.
                        > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > .--- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Dick." <richard@> wrote:
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > > Maybe?
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > > [ I am forty seven and I had near death experience three years ago. I
                        > > > > > > > > > was in green pastures through which there was a river with even greener
                        > > > > > > > > > pastures on the other side of the bridge. I was about to cross the
                        > > > > > > > > > bridge but got an understanding from what seemed like a person on the
                        > > > > > > > > > other side of that bridge that I could not go on and that I had to come
                        > > > > > > > > > back and get on with my life. It was real. Yet you talk of going into
                        > > > > > > > > > death and yet coming back here into the same life. Maybe there are
                        > > > > > > > > > different modes of death. ]
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > > Maybe does not figure in my life, either I know something or I don't
                        > > > > > > > > > know it. I read hundreds if not thousands of NDE's over a twenty
                        > > > > > > > > > year period, they are all different, yet with similarities. But they are
                        > > > > > > > > > NOT death experiences, they are near death experiences. When you are
                        > > > > > > > > > GONE and exist no more than THAT is death. That is what happened. GONE.
                        > > > > > > > > > Was no more. Bring me a person if you can find one who has known death
                        > > > > > > > > > and we will talk. I have never found one yet who had not also found that
                        > > > > > > > > > eternal domain on the other side of it. But the person that exists
                        > > > > > > > > > there, and although still ME, is nothing like a human being that exists
                        > > > > > > > > > here. IPSO. It is (I AM) the first emanation of cognitive life. It is
                        > > > > > > > > > primordial conscious existence. It is going home. But there is more than
                        > > > > > > > > > the beginning.
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > > MAYBE there is another kind of death. Highly probably I would imagine.
                        > > > > > > > > > But I don't KNOW it. It is a maybe as far as I am concerned. MAYBE
                        > > > > > > > > > there is just a sleep of oblivion from which one never wakes up. But IF
                        > > > > > > > > > that were SO then nobody would ever know it. You cannot KNOW not
                        > > > > > > > > > existing. So there would be nobody to talk of it.
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > > However, this mystic death is not like falling asleep, it is the
                        > > > > > > > > > experience of ANNIHILATION, the experience of being extinguished. You
                        > > > > > > > > > are there while being kind of melted down. NOT the nicest experience
                        > > > > > > > > > that one could live through. But what is on the other side if it is
                        > > > > > > > > > worth it. Mystical experience and moving on IS NOT all fun and games.
                        > > > > > > > > > But how could you turn a one pint jug into a two pint jug other than to
                        > > > > > > > > > melt it down and start again in a new mould?
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > > What you lived through was an introverted ARKON image emanation, a
                        > > > > > > > > > common psychic archetype. And it has taught you something has it not. Be
                        > > > > > > > > > grateful for that. But, as I say, bring me the person who has known NOT
                        > > > > > > > > > existing and we will chat.
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > > MAYBE I will win the lottery today. And maybe not. MAYBE has no part to
                        > > > > > > > > > play in my life. I take what comes and have to get on with it. But, for
                        > > > > > > > > > what it is worth to you then that mystic death and resurrection event
                        > > > > > > > > > and then coming back here again after all that into the same lifetime
                        > > > > > > > > > does seem to be quite rare. It was quite a shock too. But you get use to
                        > > > > > > > > > it. But as I say, it is only one more hurdle to climb, there is MORE.
                        > > > > > > > > > There is the uniting of Eternity with Time. THAT will rattle your
                        > > > > > > > > > marbles. But that is a bridge too far yet and they will not know what
                        > > > > > > > > > the frig you are talking about. Such is life here eh. But I give you a
                        > > > > > > > > > little tip – go and ask the buddhists and the gnostics, for they
                        > > > > > > > > > know EVERYTHING ;- )))) Or they make be-lief that they do :- )))) They
                        > > > > > > > > > are WORSE than academics from Oxbridge and other such halls of academia.
                        > > > > > > > > > A little learning eh :- )))) By the way, if you write books then you
                        > > > > > > > > > will learn a lot by way of feed-back. Learn and Grow – assuming that
                        > > > > > > > > > you want to go on further that is.
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > > Thanks for your story.
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > > Dick Richardson
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • Bryan Junius
                        Mary, Here is an article you may be interested in. Pretty straight forward reading. Let me know what your thoughts are.
                        Message 11 of 15 , Sep 21, 2012
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Mary,

                          Here is an article you may be interested in. Pretty straight forward reading. Let me know what your thoughts are.

                          http://www.psychologyinaction.org/2011/02/18/are-the-mind-and-body-separate-they-may-be-in-perception/


                          regards,

                          Bryan

                          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I don't think these problems have gone away. It's just that in the light of psychoanalysis and science, post-Existentialist philosophers began to frame them differently. Terminology has changed and pharmaceuticals, drugs, alcohol, and diversions mask anxiety.
                          >
                          > You should feel quite at home, since philosophers are much maligned here. Nobody mentions losing someone they love to insanity, debilitating suffering or death, and some even prophesy what happens to everyone else when they die.
                          >
                          > Mary
                          >
                          > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Bryan Junius" <bryan.junius@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Mary,
                          > >
                          > > Sorry if I use expressions that may confuse people. I will try to be
                          > > more to the point.
                          > >
                          > > What I was trying to say...these philosophers who I studied way back when have become disenchanting. The problems they addressed then are not really problems anymore, like the mind/body issue, or the world is filled with dread and anxiety, or that hell is other people, or existence precedes essence. All this hoopla has been beaten to a dead horse...and it is basically...kind of ridiculous when you really think about it in the 21st century. So I don't address them anymore in any serious debate. And yes, I have outgrown them :)
                          > >
                          > > But if others enjoy them...then that is fine too. At least their philosophy was good for mental stimulation.
                          > >
                          > > As referring to Camus, such as his novel "The Stranger", may not sound doom and gloom, but it certainly did not make you joyous to be one of his fictional characters either.
                          > >
                          > > As far as my NDE. I don't think I ever feared death really. I have always had a strong feeling that i was a very old, old soul and curious about humanity and what made them ticked. What made them sad. Why people died, etc....ergo my beginnings into existentialism, humanism, behaviourism, and all sorts of wonderful social sciences.
                          > >
                          > > regards,
                          > >
                          > > Bryan
                          > >
                          > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Bryan,
                          > > >
                          > > > Then what do you mean by saying, "Old philosophy of Descartes, Sartre, Kierkegaard, Schopenhauer, etc...have in my life, been thrown out with the dirty bathwater they put in." And Camus is by no means "doom and gloom." His fictional characters experienced existential dilemmas. Or do you mean certain philosophers once influenced you but that you've outgrown them. This however doesn't mean they dirtied the bath water. If anything they've helped you throw out your own. It certainly doesn't indicate they have no value for others.
                          > > >
                          > > > Did your NDE help you not to fear death? Did it ease the loss of loved ones?
                          > > >
                          > > > Mary
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Bryan Junius" <bryan.junius@> wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Mary,
                          > > > >
                          > > > > My response is not contradictory because Existentialism forces you to find meaning in a meaningless world as to most which that may appear. There is no rejection in that idea.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > My NDE as it relates to existentialism basically means just what I stated: I don't fight anymore to live (this by no means states i seek death though). The doom and gloom of existentialism does not appeal to me as albert camus made it sound or the profoundness of Kafka's "Metamorphosis". Finding spirituality and enlightment in Existentialism is what every individual on planet Earth hopes to achieve--however, the exceptions, argue like Nietszche, that some chase in another direction to find superiority among individuals, and thus, we have the "Will to Power." And in a sense makes great argument about why individuals choose the higher morals for the sum or those who choose themselves as the moral of freedom.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > regards,
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Bryan
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@> wrote:
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Your response seems contradictory; you've found your own way yet reject Existentialism.
                          > > > > > In determining your own values and giving life your own meaning, how has Existentialism thwarted you? I think, however, that Peter's question was related more to your risk taking and near death experience. How do/did these relate to your understanding of Existentialism?
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Mary
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Bryan Junius" <bryan.junius@> wrote:
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > Peter,
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > Thank you for reading.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > To answer your question as honestly as possible on how I process my everyday experience through the lens of existentialism is kind of challenging. I have studied philosophy for a very, very, very long time as far back as i can remember.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > I have seen alot of things, been around the world, been in the military, met a lot of strange people that I came to know in my passings, have had some very brilliant conversations with theoretical physicists, philosophers, buddhists, Christians, and the every day Joe. I find all my conversations, writings, thoughts in my memoirs and personal journals have led me to this point in my life...that i dont have to fight anymore to live.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > That the cares of the world in political matters and struggles of world domination are beyond me. I see that my own struggles in life was living like the "Stranger" from an Albert Camus novel. I was my own enemy. My own demon. My own savior. My own personal vendetta. My silent scream. My own nirvana. My own peace of mind.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > Old philosophy of Descartes, Sartre, Kierkegaard, Schopenhauer, etc...have in my life, been thrown out with the dirty bathwater they put in.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > regards,
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > Bryan
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@> wrote:
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Peter ciccariello <ciccariello@> wrote:
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > Of all the things I do on the internet, I think reading and following the
                          > > > > > > > > posts on Existlist is the most baffling for me. I have come to consider, in
                          > > > > > > > > my inner silence, these disembodied voices as something closely resembling
                          > > > > > > > > friends. Although reactively dismissing some and cherishing others, it
                          > > > > > > > > above all else keeps me somehow…well… in the conversation.
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > What a lovely sentiment, Peter.
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > Bryan… your post intrigued me on several levels. First, being so very
                          > > > > > > > > familiar with that train line having traveled it decades ago every day, the
                          > > > > > > > > LIRR from Port Washington to Manhattan holds a special fascination to me.
                          > > > > > > > > My younger brother in fact, did what you and your friends did, every day
                          > > > > > > > > after school was out. Thankfully none ever experienced an incident like you
                          > > > > > > > > did that day.
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > I am curious as to how to see or process your experience, and NDE for that
                          > > > > > > > > matter through the lens of Existentianlism. Alittle googling brought up
                          > > > > > > > > this thread from 2008. I guess we have all been here before?
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > I have an answer to your query of Bryan, but will wait for his response. I consider your question extremely relevant for those who might come to 'existlist' for this very purpose.
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > Always nice to hear from you,
                          > > > > > > > Mary
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > *[existlist] Re: Relevance of NDEs to Existentialism*
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist/message/43855
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > - Peter
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > ____________________
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 12:52 PM, Bryan Junius <bryan.junius@>wrote:
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > **
                          > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > When I was young I used to walk the train tracks in Queens, sometimes as
                          > > > > > > > > > far as Little Neck. The railroad tracks i use to walk were not the busy
                          > > > > > > > > > type; a train maybe every 45 minutes to an hour. I can still remember the
                          > > > > > > > > > train conductors yelling at me, "Hey kids! Get off the damn tracks!! You'll
                          > > > > > > > > > get killed!!"
                          > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > These trains use to commute people back and and forth from Flushing Queens
                          > > > > > > > > > out toward Great Neck which was much further and right after Little Neck.
                          > > > > > > > > > Use to have a friend go with me, his name was Frankie and 5 years older
                          > > > > > > > > > than me at the time. Sometimes he like to bully people because of his big
                          > > > > > > > > > build, even me now and again. Why we hung out every now and then still
                          > > > > > > > > > alludes me today.
                          > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > We would get up real early in the morning to do this because the hike was
                          > > > > > > > > > kind of long. We would bring a small backpack, maybe a few sandwiches to
                          > > > > > > > > > snack on and some drinks.
                          > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > When we got to our destination. It was like a bay, and a small reef type
                          > > > > > > > > > beach with white-beige sand. We threw rocks out there. Built a small camp
                          > > > > > > > > > fire. Dug up small piss clams (thats what we used to call them as they were
                          > > > > > > > > > cleaning out their penis like stems, or we would accidentally sit on them
                          > > > > > > > > > as they pee'd out.)
                          > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > When the afternoon came around we would start to pack things up and head
                          > > > > > > > > > on back the direction we came from. I remember the day being warm and
                          > > > > > > > > > pleasant. No jacket needed that day. The tracks were wooded and rocks all
                          > > > > > > > > > over the place. I was known to have great balance back then. Frankie and I
                          > > > > > > > > > were walking side by side that day. At some point and time Frankie offered
                          > > > > > > > > > me a life saver; the spearimint kind. I guess it was at this point I
                          > > > > > > > > > reached for the candy being offered and started to fall out of my hand. Not
                          > > > > > > > > > paying much attention that i was on the left of Frankie, which meant i was
                          > > > > > > > > > by the third rail and only a wooden beam worn down by weather was between
                          > > > > > > > > > me and it; so as i reached with my left hand for the lifesaver, I tripped
                          > > > > > > > > > and strangely enough, my arm goes right between the wooden beam and the
                          > > > > > > > > > third rail. That moment i became electrified like no coherent words today
                          > > > > > > > > > could describe that one event. I jolted. I buckled. Shaking like riding a
                          > > > > > > > > > bronco. I was magnetized to that rail. I remember thinking, painfully, I am
                          > > > > > > > > > going to die...here and now. I remember my friend trying to reach for me
                          > > > > > > > > > and grab me with his bare hands to pull me by my shirt collar but i could
                          > > > > > > > > > sense the fear in him and he quickly backed away and started walking away -
                          > > > > > > > > > creepily enough, I had always sworn he started whistling as he done so.
                          > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > There I am. Waiting for my heart to explode. The volts pouring thru my
                          > > > > > > > > > body like a live wire. The sheer intensity i was feeling like i was on fire
                          > > > > > > > > > from the inside. There is no escape from this death grip im in, I had
                          > > > > > > > > > thought. As Frankie is walking away, my head jolts right. I have no control
                          > > > > > > > > > of my muscles as they spasm like a tornado. In that split second, what
                          > > > > > > > > > seemed like eternity, something glowed, then something opened. It was like
                          > > > > > > > > > a hole in the air. The purest white void. A smell in the air. I thought it
                          > > > > > > > > > was me starting to burn. The void grew and flickered. Then something
                          > > > > > > > > > orangish-like glow. No. It was something else. Cause it was walking toward
                          > > > > > > > > > or gliding to me. It had a body but it was just an outline. It had wings i
                          > > > > > > > > > thought.
                          > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > Then it entered me. It was like something took over. My right arm. The
                          > > > > > > > > > free one. It quickly snapped up and reached for my left arm. The one that
                          > > > > > > > > > was deathbolted to the third rail and yanked it out with some unknown
                          > > > > > > > > > strength that i could not do.
                          > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > Then i felt a release. It was gone. I was still in shock touching myself
                          > > > > > > > > > all over. Wondering if i was dead or what just happened. I looked at
                          > > > > > > > > > myself. My hands. My arms. No burns. No marks. My heart still beating
                          > > > > > > > > > rapidly. Can still see. At that point I started crying like the clouds
                          > > > > > > > > > opened up. Frankie was in the distance. I could still see him. Then I ran
                          > > > > > > > > > after him as far as my feet could carry me. When I did catch up with him
                          > > > > > > > > > and grabbed him he screamed bloody murder, "Don't touch me!!!!Don't touch
                          > > > > > > > > > me!!!" He was freaked out wondering if i was a ghost or the walking dead.
                          > > > > > > > > > He asked me what happened. Never to bother ask me if i was alright. But i
                          > > > > > > > > > showed him my hands. There was no burns or anything and i was not dead...at
                          > > > > > > > > > all. He was surprised by that. I don't know how many volts or amps were
                          > > > > > > > > > going through me that day. I've heard generally a third rail carries about
                          > > > > > > > > > 60 volts across it enough to blow up tin like metal. The strangest thing,
                          > > > > > > > > > was not just leaving the terrifying experience intact, it was how i got
                          > > > > > > > > > out. So if there are things out there living in different domains, I have a
                          > > > > > > > > > reluctant ponderance to agree on those terms.
                          > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > And yes. This is a true story. Implausible? Yes. Would i believe it if you
                          > > > > > > > > > told me? No.
                          > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > Thanks for listening.
                          > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > .--- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Dick." <richard@> wrote:
                          > > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > > Maybe?
                          > > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > > [ I am forty seven and I had near death experience three years ago. I
                          > > > > > > > > > > was in green pastures through which there was a river with even greener
                          > > > > > > > > > > pastures on the other side of the bridge. I was about to cross the
                          > > > > > > > > > > bridge but got an understanding from what seemed like a person on the
                          > > > > > > > > > > other side of that bridge that I could not go on and that I had to come
                          > > > > > > > > > > back and get on with my life. It was real. Yet you talk of going into
                          > > > > > > > > > > death and yet coming back here into the same life. Maybe there are
                          > > > > > > > > > > different modes of death. ]
                          > > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > > Maybe does not figure in my life, either I know something or I don't
                          > > > > > > > > > > know it. I read hundreds if not thousands of NDE's over a twenty
                          > > > > > > > > > > year period, they are all different, yet with similarities. But they are
                          > > > > > > > > > > NOT death experiences, they are near death experiences. When you are
                          > > > > > > > > > > GONE and exist no more than THAT is death. That is what happened. GONE.
                          > > > > > > > > > > Was no more. Bring me a person if you can find one who has known death
                          > > > > > > > > > > and we will talk. I have never found one yet who had not also found that
                          > > > > > > > > > > eternal domain on the other side of it. But the person that exists
                          > > > > > > > > > > there, and although still ME, is nothing like a human being that exists
                          > > > > > > > > > > here. IPSO. It is (I AM) the first emanation of cognitive life. It is
                          > > > > > > > > > > primordial conscious existence. It is going home. But there is more than
                          > > > > > > > > > > the beginning.
                          > > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > > MAYBE there is another kind of death. Highly probably I would imagine.
                          > > > > > > > > > > But I don't KNOW it. It is a maybe as far as I am concerned. MAYBE
                          > > > > > > > > > > there is just a sleep of oblivion from which one never wakes up. But IF
                          > > > > > > > > > > that were SO then nobody would ever know it. You cannot KNOW not
                          > > > > > > > > > > existing. So there would be nobody to talk of it.
                          > > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > > However, this mystic death is not like falling asleep, it is the
                          > > > > > > > > > > experience of ANNIHILATION, the experience of being extinguished. You
                          > > > > > > > > > > are there while being kind of melted down. NOT the nicest experience
                          > > > > > > > > > > that one could live through. But what is on the other side if it is
                          > > > > > > > > > > worth it. Mystical experience and moving on IS NOT all fun and games.
                          > > > > > > > > > > But how could you turn a one pint jug into a two pint jug other than to
                          > > > > > > > > > > melt it down and start again in a new mould?
                          > > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > > What you lived through was an introverted ARKON image emanation, a
                          > > > > > > > > > > common psychic archetype. And it has taught you something has it not. Be
                          > > > > > > > > > > grateful for that. But, as I say, bring me the person who has known NOT
                          > > > > > > > > > > existing and we will chat.
                          > > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > > MAYBE I will win the lottery today. And maybe not. MAYBE has no part to
                          > > > > > > > > > > play in my life. I take what comes and have to get on with it. But, for
                          > > > > > > > > > > what it is worth to you then that mystic death and resurrection event
                          > > > > > > > > > > and then coming back here again after all that into the same lifetime
                          > > > > > > > > > > does seem to be quite rare. It was quite a shock too. But you get use to
                          > > > > > > > > > > it. But as I say, it is only one more hurdle to climb, there is MORE.
                          > > > > > > > > > > There is the uniting of Eternity with Time. THAT will rattle your
                          > > > > > > > > > > marbles. But that is a bridge too far yet and they will not know what
                          > > > > > > > > > > the frig you are talking about. Such is life here eh. But I give you a
                          > > > > > > > > > > little tip – go and ask the buddhists and the gnostics, for they
                          > > > > > > > > > > know EVERYTHING ;- )))) Or they make be-lief that they do :- )))) They
                          > > > > > > > > > > are WORSE than academics from Oxbridge and other such halls of academia.
                          > > > > > > > > > > A little learning eh :- )))) By the way, if you write books then you
                          > > > > > > > > > > will learn a lot by way of feed-back. Learn and Grow – assuming that
                          > > > > > > > > > > you want to go on further that is.
                          > > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for your story.
                          > > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > > Dick Richardson
                          > > > > > > > > > >
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                          > > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > > > > > > > >
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                        • Mary
                          I ll check it out some time this weekend and prepare some comments. Mary
                          Message 12 of 15 , Sep 21, 2012
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I'll check it out some time this weekend and prepare some comments.

                            Mary

                            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Bryan Junius" <bryan.junius@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Mary,
                            >
                            > Here is an article you may be interested in. Pretty straight forward reading. Let me know what your thoughts are.
                            >
                            > http://www.psychologyinaction.org/2011/02/18/are-the-mind-and-body-separate-they-may-be-in-perception/
                            >
                            >
                            > regards,
                            >
                            > Bryan
                            >
                            > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > I don't think these problems have gone away. It's just that in the light of psychoanalysis and science, post-Existentialist philosophers began to frame them differently. Terminology has changed and pharmaceuticals, drugs, alcohol, and diversions mask anxiety.
                            > >
                            > > You should feel quite at home, since philosophers are much maligned here. Nobody mentions losing someone they love to insanity, debilitating suffering or death, and some even prophesy what happens to everyone else when they die.
                            > >
                            > > Mary
                            > >
                            > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Bryan Junius" <bryan.junius@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Mary,
                            > > >
                            > > > Sorry if I use expressions that may confuse people. I will try to be
                            > > > more to the point.
                            > > >
                            > > > What I was trying to say...these philosophers who I studied way back when have become disenchanting. The problems they addressed then are not really problems anymore, like the mind/body issue, or the world is filled with dread and anxiety, or that hell is other people, or existence precedes essence. All this hoopla has been beaten to a dead horse...and it is basically...kind of ridiculous when you really think about it in the 21st century. So I don't address them anymore in any serious debate. And yes, I have outgrown them :)
                            > > >
                            > > > But if others enjoy them...then that is fine too. At least their philosophy was good for mental stimulation.
                            > > >
                            > > > As referring to Camus, such as his novel "The Stranger", may not sound doom and gloom, but it certainly did not make you joyous to be one of his fictional characters either.
                            > > >
                            > > > As far as my NDE. I don't think I ever feared death really. I have always had a strong feeling that i was a very old, old soul and curious about humanity and what made them ticked. What made them sad. Why people died, etc....ergo my beginnings into existentialism, humanism, behaviourism, and all sorts of wonderful social sciences.
                            > > >
                            > > > regards,
                            > > >
                            > > > Bryan
                            > > >
                            > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@> wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Bryan,
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Then what do you mean by saying, "Old philosophy of Descartes, Sartre, Kierkegaard, Schopenhauer, etc...have in my life, been thrown out with the dirty bathwater they put in." And Camus is by no means "doom and gloom." His fictional characters experienced existential dilemmas. Or do you mean certain philosophers once influenced you but that you've outgrown them. This however doesn't mean they dirtied the bath water. If anything they've helped you throw out your own. It certainly doesn't indicate they have no value for others.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Did your NDE help you not to fear death? Did it ease the loss of loved ones?
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Mary
                            > > > >
                            > > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Bryan Junius" <bryan.junius@> wrote:
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Mary,
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > My response is not contradictory because Existentialism forces you to find meaning in a meaningless world as to most which that may appear. There is no rejection in that idea.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > My NDE as it relates to existentialism basically means just what I stated: I don't fight anymore to live (this by no means states i seek death though). The doom and gloom of existentialism does not appeal to me as albert camus made it sound or the profoundness of Kafka's "Metamorphosis". Finding spirituality and enlightment in Existentialism is what every individual on planet Earth hopes to achieve--however, the exceptions, argue like Nietszche, that some chase in another direction to find superiority among individuals, and thus, we have the "Will to Power." And in a sense makes great argument about why individuals choose the higher morals for the sum or those who choose themselves as the moral of freedom.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > regards,
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Bryan
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@> wrote:
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Your response seems contradictory; you've found your own way yet reject Existentialism.
                            > > > > > > In determining your own values and giving life your own meaning, how has Existentialism thwarted you? I think, however, that Peter's question was related more to your risk taking and near death experience. How do/did these relate to your understanding of Existentialism?
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Mary
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Bryan Junius" <bryan.junius@> wrote:
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > Peter,
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > Thank you for reading.
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > To answer your question as honestly as possible on how I process my everyday experience through the lens of existentialism is kind of challenging. I have studied philosophy for a very, very, very long time as far back as i can remember.
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > I have seen alot of things, been around the world, been in the military, met a lot of strange people that I came to know in my passings, have had some very brilliant conversations with theoretical physicists, philosophers, buddhists, Christians, and the every day Joe. I find all my conversations, writings, thoughts in my memoirs and personal journals have led me to this point in my life...that i dont have to fight anymore to live.
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > That the cares of the world in political matters and struggles of world domination are beyond me. I see that my own struggles in life was living like the "Stranger" from an Albert Camus novel. I was my own enemy. My own demon. My own savior. My own personal vendetta. My silent scream. My own nirvana. My own peace of mind.
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > Old philosophy of Descartes, Sartre, Kierkegaard, Schopenhauer, etc...have in my life, been thrown out with the dirty bathwater they put in.
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > regards,
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > Bryan
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@> wrote:
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Peter ciccariello <ciccariello@> wrote:
                            > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > Of all the things I do on the internet, I think reading and following the
                            > > > > > > > > > posts on Existlist is the most baffling for me. I have come to consider, in
                            > > > > > > > > > my inner silence, these disembodied voices as something closely resembling
                            > > > > > > > > > friends. Although reactively dismissing some and cherishing others, it
                            > > > > > > > > > above all else keeps me somehow…well… in the conversation.
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > What a lovely sentiment, Peter.
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > Bryan… your post intrigued me on several levels. First, being so very
                            > > > > > > > > > familiar with that train line having traveled it decades ago every day, the
                            > > > > > > > > > LIRR from Port Washington to Manhattan holds a special fascination to me.
                            > > > > > > > > > My younger brother in fact, did what you and your friends did, every day
                            > > > > > > > > > after school was out. Thankfully none ever experienced an incident like you
                            > > > > > > > > > did that day.
                            > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > I am curious as to how to see or process your experience, and NDE for that
                            > > > > > > > > > matter through the lens of Existentianlism. Alittle googling brought up
                            > > > > > > > > > this thread from 2008. I guess we have all been here before?
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > I have an answer to your query of Bryan, but will wait for his response. I consider your question extremely relevant for those who might come to 'existlist' for this very purpose.
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > Always nice to hear from you,
                            > > > > > > > > Mary
                            > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > *[existlist] Re: Relevance of NDEs to Existentialism*
                            > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist/message/43855
                            > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > - Peter
                            > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > ____________________
                            > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 12:52 PM, Bryan Junius <bryan.junius@>wrote:
                            > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > **
                            > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > When I was young I used to walk the train tracks in Queens, sometimes as
                            > > > > > > > > > > far as Little Neck. The railroad tracks i use to walk were not the busy
                            > > > > > > > > > > type; a train maybe every 45 minutes to an hour. I can still remember the
                            > > > > > > > > > > train conductors yelling at me, "Hey kids! Get off the damn tracks!! You'll
                            > > > > > > > > > > get killed!!"
                            > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > These trains use to commute people back and and forth from Flushing Queens
                            > > > > > > > > > > out toward Great Neck which was much further and right after Little Neck.
                            > > > > > > > > > > Use to have a friend go with me, his name was Frankie and 5 years older
                            > > > > > > > > > > than me at the time. Sometimes he like to bully people because of his big
                            > > > > > > > > > > build, even me now and again. Why we hung out every now and then still
                            > > > > > > > > > > alludes me today.
                            > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > We would get up real early in the morning to do this because the hike was
                            > > > > > > > > > > kind of long. We would bring a small backpack, maybe a few sandwiches to
                            > > > > > > > > > > snack on and some drinks.
                            > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > When we got to our destination. It was like a bay, and a small reef type
                            > > > > > > > > > > beach with white-beige sand. We threw rocks out there. Built a small camp
                            > > > > > > > > > > fire. Dug up small piss clams (thats what we used to call them as they were
                            > > > > > > > > > > cleaning out their penis like stems, or we would accidentally sit on them
                            > > > > > > > > > > as they pee'd out.)
                            > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > When the afternoon came around we would start to pack things up and head
                            > > > > > > > > > > on back the direction we came from. I remember the day being warm and
                            > > > > > > > > > > pleasant. No jacket needed that day. The tracks were wooded and rocks all
                            > > > > > > > > > > over the place. I was known to have great balance back then. Frankie and I
                            > > > > > > > > > > were walking side by side that day. At some point and time Frankie offered
                            > > > > > > > > > > me a life saver; the spearimint kind. I guess it was at this point I
                            > > > > > > > > > > reached for the candy being offered and started to fall out of my hand. Not
                            > > > > > > > > > > paying much attention that i was on the left of Frankie, which meant i was
                            > > > > > > > > > > by the third rail and only a wooden beam worn down by weather was between
                            > > > > > > > > > > me and it; so as i reached with my left hand for the lifesaver, I tripped
                            > > > > > > > > > > and strangely enough, my arm goes right between the wooden beam and the
                            > > > > > > > > > > third rail. That moment i became electrified like no coherent words today
                            > > > > > > > > > > could describe that one event. I jolted. I buckled. Shaking like riding a
                            > > > > > > > > > > bronco. I was magnetized to that rail. I remember thinking, painfully, I am
                            > > > > > > > > > > going to die...here and now. I remember my friend trying to reach for me
                            > > > > > > > > > > and grab me with his bare hands to pull me by my shirt collar but i could
                            > > > > > > > > > > sense the fear in him and he quickly backed away and started walking away -
                            > > > > > > > > > > creepily enough, I had always sworn he started whistling as he done so.
                            > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > There I am. Waiting for my heart to explode. The volts pouring thru my
                            > > > > > > > > > > body like a live wire. The sheer intensity i was feeling like i was on fire
                            > > > > > > > > > > from the inside. There is no escape from this death grip im in, I had
                            > > > > > > > > > > thought. As Frankie is walking away, my head jolts right. I have no control
                            > > > > > > > > > > of my muscles as they spasm like a tornado. In that split second, what
                            > > > > > > > > > > seemed like eternity, something glowed, then something opened. It was like
                            > > > > > > > > > > a hole in the air. The purest white void. A smell in the air. I thought it
                            > > > > > > > > > > was me starting to burn. The void grew and flickered. Then something
                            > > > > > > > > > > orangish-like glow. No. It was something else. Cause it was walking toward
                            > > > > > > > > > > or gliding to me. It had a body but it was just an outline. It had wings i
                            > > > > > > > > > > thought.
                            > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > Then it entered me. It was like something took over. My right arm. The
                            > > > > > > > > > > free one. It quickly snapped up and reached for my left arm. The one that
                            > > > > > > > > > > was deathbolted to the third rail and yanked it out with some unknown
                            > > > > > > > > > > strength that i could not do.
                            > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > Then i felt a release. It was gone. I was still in shock touching myself
                            > > > > > > > > > > all over. Wondering if i was dead or what just happened. I looked at
                            > > > > > > > > > > myself. My hands. My arms. No burns. No marks. My heart still beating
                            > > > > > > > > > > rapidly. Can still see. At that point I started crying like the clouds
                            > > > > > > > > > > opened up. Frankie was in the distance. I could still see him. Then I ran
                            > > > > > > > > > > after him as far as my feet could carry me. When I did catch up with him
                            > > > > > > > > > > and grabbed him he screamed bloody murder, "Don't touch me!!!!Don't touch
                            > > > > > > > > > > me!!!" He was freaked out wondering if i was a ghost or the walking dead.
                            > > > > > > > > > > He asked me what happened. Never to bother ask me if i was alright. But i
                            > > > > > > > > > > showed him my hands. There was no burns or anything and i was not dead...at
                            > > > > > > > > > > all. He was surprised by that. I don't know how many volts or amps were
                            > > > > > > > > > > going through me that day. I've heard generally a third rail carries about
                            > > > > > > > > > > 60 volts across it enough to blow up tin like metal. The strangest thing,
                            > > > > > > > > > > was not just leaving the terrifying experience intact, it was how i got
                            > > > > > > > > > > out. So if there are things out there living in different domains, I have a
                            > > > > > > > > > > reluctant ponderance to agree on those terms.
                            > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > And yes. This is a true story. Implausible? Yes. Would i believe it if you
                            > > > > > > > > > > told me? No.
                            > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for listening.
                            > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > .--- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Dick." <richard@> wrote:
                            > > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe?
                            > > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > > [ I am forty seven and I had near death experience three years ago. I
                            > > > > > > > > > > > was in green pastures through which there was a river with even greener
                            > > > > > > > > > > > pastures on the other side of the bridge. I was about to cross the
                            > > > > > > > > > > > bridge but got an understanding from what seemed like a person on the
                            > > > > > > > > > > > other side of that bridge that I could not go on and that I had to come
                            > > > > > > > > > > > back and get on with my life. It was real. Yet you talk of going into
                            > > > > > > > > > > > death and yet coming back here into the same life. Maybe there are
                            > > > > > > > > > > > different modes of death. ]
                            > > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe does not figure in my life, either I know something or I don't
                            > > > > > > > > > > > know it. I read hundreds if not thousands of NDE's over a twenty
                            > > > > > > > > > > > year period, they are all different, yet with similarities. But they are
                            > > > > > > > > > > > NOT death experiences, they are near death experiences. When you are
                            > > > > > > > > > > > GONE and exist no more than THAT is death. That is what happened. GONE.
                            > > > > > > > > > > > Was no more. Bring me a person if you can find one who has known death
                            > > > > > > > > > > > and we will talk. I have never found one yet who had not also found that
                            > > > > > > > > > > > eternal domain on the other side of it. But the person that exists
                            > > > > > > > > > > > there, and although still ME, is nothing like a human being that exists
                            > > > > > > > > > > > here. IPSO. It is (I AM) the first emanation of cognitive life. It is
                            > > > > > > > > > > > primordial conscious existence. It is going home. But there is more than
                            > > > > > > > > > > > the beginning.
                            > > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > > MAYBE there is another kind of death. Highly probably I would imagine.
                            > > > > > > > > > > > But I don't KNOW it. It is a maybe as far as I am concerned. MAYBE
                            > > > > > > > > > > > there is just a sleep of oblivion from which one never wakes up. But IF
                            > > > > > > > > > > > that were SO then nobody would ever know it. You cannot KNOW not
                            > > > > > > > > > > > existing. So there would be nobody to talk of it.
                            > > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > > However, this mystic death is not like falling asleep, it is the
                            > > > > > > > > > > > experience of ANNIHILATION, the experience of being extinguished. You
                            > > > > > > > > > > > are there while being kind of melted down. NOT the nicest experience
                            > > > > > > > > > > > that one could live through. But what is on the other side if it is
                            > > > > > > > > > > > worth it. Mystical experience and moving on IS NOT all fun and games.
                            > > > > > > > > > > > But how could you turn a one pint jug into a two pint jug other than to
                            > > > > > > > > > > > melt it down and start again in a new mould?
                            > > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > > What you lived through was an introverted ARKON image emanation, a
                            > > > > > > > > > > > common psychic archetype. And it has taught you something has it not. Be
                            > > > > > > > > > > > grateful for that. But, as I say, bring me the person who has known NOT
                            > > > > > > > > > > > existing and we will chat.
                            > > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > > MAYBE I will win the lottery today. And maybe not. MAYBE has no part to
                            > > > > > > > > > > > play in my life. I take what comes and have to get on with it. But, for
                            > > > > > > > > > > > what it is worth to you then that mystic death and resurrection event
                            > > > > > > > > > > > and then coming back here again after all that into the same lifetime
                            > > > > > > > > > > > does seem to be quite rare. It was quite a shock too. But you get use to
                            > > > > > > > > > > > it. But as I say, it is only one more hurdle to climb, there is MORE.
                            > > > > > > > > > > > There is the uniting of Eternity with Time. THAT will rattle your
                            > > > > > > > > > > > marbles. But that is a bridge too far yet and they will not know what
                            > > > > > > > > > > > the frig you are talking about. Such is life here eh. But I give you a
                            > > > > > > > > > > > little tip – go and ask the buddhists and the gnostics, for they
                            > > > > > > > > > > > know EVERYTHING ;- )))) Or they make be-lief that they do :- )))) They
                            > > > > > > > > > > > are WORSE than academics from Oxbridge and other such halls of academia.
                            > > > > > > > > > > > A little learning eh :- )))) By the way, if you write books then you
                            > > > > > > > > > > > will learn a lot by way of feed-back. Learn and Grow – assuming that
                            > > > > > > > > > > > you want to go on further that is.
                            > > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for your story.
                            > > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > > Dick Richardson
                            > > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > > > > > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > > > >
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                          • existlist
                            ... === Peter, This is a portion of something you were writing to Bryan on March 19th. I haven t seen anything from you lately but I did see Mary try to bring
                            Message 13 of 15 , Mar 25, 2013
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                              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Peter ciccariello <ciccariello@...> wrote:
                              > Of all the things I do on the internet, I think reading and following the posts on Existlist is the most baffling for me. I have come to consider, in my inner silence, these disembodied voices as something closely resembling friends. Although reactively dismissing some and cherishing others, it above all else keeps me somehow…well… in the conversation.

                              ===
                              Peter,
                              This is a portion of something you were writing to Bryan on March 19th. I haven't seen anything from you lately but I did see Mary try to bring you back into the flow of conversation at one point. I, too, hope you are still reading and will come back out to play.

                              I think you were maybe making the point that we too often reactively dismiss people on these email lists when they begin to speak about something that feels just too foreign to us or we just haven't opened our minds far enough yet to allow in. I don't want to put words in your mouth, though, so I will leave it at that and await your valued response.

                              I know for sure that I used to shut people down thinking that there was a truth out there to be had and that certain people were deluded or something and would interfere with the knowing of this idea I had of some difficult to fully grasp truth. Now I try to let it all in. I don't have to own any of it. I can just listen and let it go.

                              Sometimes it is exactly what I needed to read or hear to keep me conscious of the mystery that we are living. Other times I need to keep things simple and not let much in. I am guessing that is a human characteristic to open and close, open and close....open to let something new or foreign in and close to take time to assimilate it. Maybe?


                              h.
                            • existlist
                              Oh, I guess it was way back in September. Oh well. h.
                              Message 14 of 15 , Mar 25, 2013
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                                Oh, I guess it was way back in September. Oh well.

                                h.

                                --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "existlist" <hermitcrab65@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Peter ciccariello <ciccariello@> wrote:
                                > > Of all the things I do on the internet, I think reading and following the posts on Existlist is the most baffling for me. I have come to consider, in my inner silence, these disembodied voices as something closely resembling friends. Although reactively dismissing some and cherishing others, it above all else keeps me somehow…well… in the conversation.
                                >
                                > ===
                                > Peter,
                                > This is a portion of something you were writing to Bryan on March 19th. I haven't seen anything from you lately but I did see Mary try to bring you back into the flow of conversation at one point. I, too, hope you are still reading and will come back out to play.
                                >
                                > I think you were maybe making the point that we too often reactively dismiss people on these email lists when they begin to speak about something that feels just too foreign to us or we just haven't opened our minds far enough yet to allow in. I don't want to put words in your mouth, though, so I will leave it at that and await your valued response.
                                >
                                > I know for sure that I used to shut people down thinking that there was a truth out there to be had and that certain people were deluded or something and would interfere with the knowing of this idea I had of some difficult to fully grasp truth. Now I try to let it all in. I don't have to own any of it. I can just listen and let it go.
                                >
                                > Sometimes it is exactly what I needed to read or hear to keep me conscious of the mystery that we are living. Other times I need to keep things simple and not let much in. I am guessing that is a human characteristic to open and close, open and close....open to let something new or foreign in and close to take time to assimilate it. Maybe?
                                >
                                >
                                > h.
                                >
                              • Mary
                                h. The irritating grain of sand, that undigestible thing, causes the oyster to make a pearl. Mary
                                Message 15 of 15 , Mar 25, 2013
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                                  h.

                                  The irritating grain of sand, that undigestible thing, causes the oyster to make a pearl.

                                  Mary

                                  --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "existlist" <hermitcrab65@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Peter ciccariello <ciccariello@> wrote:
                                  > > Of all the things I do on the internet, I think reading and following the posts on Existlist is the most baffling for me. I have come to consider, in my inner silence, these disembodied voices as something closely resembling friends. Although reactively dismissing some and cherishing others, it above all else keeps me somehow…well… in the conversation.
                                  >
                                  > ===
                                  > Peter,
                                  > This is a portion of something you were writing to Bryan on March 19th. I haven't seen anything from you lately but I did see Mary try to bring you back into the flow of conversation at one point. I, too, hope you are still reading and will come back out to play.
                                  >
                                  > I think you were maybe making the point that we too often reactively dismiss people on these email lists when they begin to speak about something that feels just too foreign to us or we just haven't opened our minds far enough yet to allow in. I don't want to put words in your mouth, though, so I will leave it at that and await your valued response.
                                  >
                                  > I know for sure that I used to shut people down thinking that there was a truth out there to be had and that certain people were deluded or something and would interfere with the knowing of this idea I had of some difficult to fully grasp truth. Now I try to let it all in. I don't have to own any of it. I can just listen and let it go.
                                  >
                                  > Sometimes it is exactly what I needed to read or hear to keep me conscious of the mystery that we are living. Other times I need to keep things simple and not let much in. I am guessing that is a human characteristic to open and close, open and close....open to let something new or foreign in and close to take time to assimilate it. Maybe?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > h.
                                  >
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