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Re: nescism & truth

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  • Delia Friedberg
    Sam, i hope you don t expect from me a contribution to epistemology! Look what i found on Phenomenalism ( without connection to what i think on the matter;
    Message 1 of 2 , Jan 6, 2000
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      Sam, i hope you don't expect from me a contribution to epistemology!
      Look what i found on "Phenomenalism" ( without connection to what i think on the matter; just as an exemple of answer) in Britanica : "To talk about any existent object is thus to talk about a collection of perceivable features localized in a particular portion of space-time. Hence, what one means by a tomato is something that in principle must be perceivable. Accordingly, to say that a tomato exists is either to describe a collection of properties that an observer is actually perceiving or a collection that such an observer would perceive under certain specified conditions. In principle, everything that exists is perceivable. Once it is understood that objects are merely sets of properties and that such collections of properties are in principle , always perceivable, the notion that there is some unbridgeable gap between people's perceptual evidence and existence of an object is just a mistake, a confusion between the concepts of actual being perceived and of being percervable.
      ....[critics from the realist side] "Phenomenalism, they contend, has the implication that, if no perceivers existed , then the world would contain no objects; and, if this a consequence of the view, then it is surely inconsistent both with what ordinary persons believe and with the known scientific facts that all sort of objects existed in the universe long before there were any perceivers. But its supporters deny that phenomenalism carries such an implication, and the debate about its merits remains unresolved."
      Regarding myself, i do believe in science in a critical way. There are limits, i think, to knowledge and these limits are replaced by faith.
      i am craving for a systematic study of philosophy.
      delia

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: BOURTON, SAM
      To: existlist@onelist.com
      Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2000 7:29 PM
      Subject: RE: [existlist] nescism & truth


      Delia,

      I see - so in the passage below Nietzsche is decribing a state of being or
      existence, not a metaphysic.

      So Delia, do you agree with JC that when people thought the world was flat
      it was flat? This is the bit I'm having trouble understanding - the
      metaphysic (or ontology) that follows on from Nietzsche (assuming there is
      one).

      What about millions of years ago when there were no people at all, and no
      beliefs about the shape of the earth. What shape was the Earth then? Or
      does the question make no sense?

      Are there only truths when there exists perspectives for whom they are true?

      Cheers,

      Sam



      -----Original Message-----
      From: uli [mailto:uli@...]
      Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2000 4:17 PM
      To: existlist@onelist.com
      Subject: Re: [existlist] nescism

      BOURTON, SAM wrote:

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    • BOURTON, SAM
      Delia, I see - so in the passage below Nietzsche is decribing a state of being or existence, not a metaphysic. So Delia, do you agree with JC that when people
      Message 2 of 2 , Jan 6, 2000
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        Delia,

        I see - so in the passage below Nietzsche is decribing a state of being or
        existence, not a metaphysic.

        So Delia, do you agree with JC that when people thought the world was flat
        it was flat? This is the bit I'm having trouble understanding - the
        metaphysic (or ontology) that follows on from Nietzsche (assuming there is
        one).

        What about millions of years ago when there were no people at all, and no
        beliefs about the shape of the earth. What shape was the Earth then? Or
        does the question make no sense?

        Are there only truths when there exists perspectives for whom they are true?

        Cheers,

        Sam



        -----Original Message-----
        From: uli [mailto:uli@...]
        Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2000 4:17 PM
        To: existlist@onelist.com
        Subject: Re: [existlist] nescism


        From: uli <uli@...>

        "The falseness of a judgement is to us not
        necessarily an objection to a
        judgement:.........To recognize untruth as a
        condition of life : that, to be sure, means to
        resist customary value- sentiments in a dangerous
        fashion; and a philosophy which ventures to do so
        places itself, by that act alone, beyond good and
        evil"
        "How could something originate in its antithesis?
        Truth in error, for example? Or will to truth in
        will to deception? Or the unselfish act in
        self-interest?........Such origination is
        impossible; he who dreams of it is a fool, indeed
        worse than a fool; the things of the highest value
        must have another origin of their own- they cannot
        be derivable from this transitory, seductive,
        deceptive, mean little world, from this confusion
        of desire and illusion! In the womb of being,
        rather, in the intransitory, in the hidden god, in
        the "thing itself" - that is where their cause
        must lie and nowhere else!"
        Sam, Nietzsche is.... a state of being more than
        an argument, i think. Not that i don't appreciate
        the stile or the state, in bits .
        Delia






        BOURTON, SAM wrote:

        > From: "BOURTON, SAM"
        > <SAM.BOURTON@...>
        >
        > Gretchyn and Jesus Christ,
        >
        > But surely the Earth was still round even when
        > people believed it to be
        > flat. We know that they were just wrong.
        > Likewise the people who believed
        > atoms were the smallest particle were just
        > wrong.
        >
        > I don't think existentialism leads us to the
        > conclusion that when people
        > believed the earth was flat, either (a) it was
        > flat, or (b) it was not the
        > case that is was round.
        >
        > In Beyond Good and Evil this problem is avoided
        > because we are told that the
        > existence of falsehoods doesn't necessitate the
        > existence of truths. Just
        > because we can know things are wrong, doesn't
        > necessarily mean we can know
        > things are right - but that in turn doesn't mean
        > that there is no right.
        >
        > Sam
        >
        > Gretchyn Lenger wrote:
        >
        > This is the first time I've answered e-mail from
        > Christ (haha). I think
        > you have put into your own words and way of
        > conceptualizing a pretty
        > universal understanding. A friend of mine had
        > this way of putting it> She
        > would say that a thing was true ... "unless of
        > course, it's not." Even in
        > science a thing is deemed to be true, until it
        > is not. The Earth was flat
        > until it was round; atoms were the smallest
        > particles until we discovered
        > quarks, etc. ad infinitum. What we recklessly
        > refer to as objective
        > reality is really consensus reality: the minimum
        > agreement we need to live
        > together in a relative universe. We know nothing
        > because nothing can be
        > known, only perceived and filtered. But then,
        > what do I know?
        >
        > On Mon, 3 Jan 2000, Jesus Christ wrote:
        >
        > > From: Jesus Christ <nescist@...>
        > >
        > > hello. i have determined a theory that i have
        > entitled nescism. i would
        > like to tell you all about it, not to win
        > approval, but merely to hear
        > feedback in response to my abstract ideas. my
        > philosophy is that knowledge,
        > if not nonexistent, is at the least not
        > attainable. i believe that there is
        > no knowledge, only belief. what someone thinks
        > he or she knows is actually
        > only a belief in reaction to the way they
        > perceive reality. reality is a
        > different concept for everyone. to me, the
        > concept of an absolute truth is
        > ridiculous because, even if one existed, no one
        > would perceive it the same
        > way so it would never be "universal". if if
        > there is a concrete reality, it
        > will never be known due to lack of consistency
        > in the minds of human beings.
        > a sense of truth must be felt by the individual
        > in order to satisfy their
        > longing for knowledge.
        > >
        > > i realize that, were my theory true, it would
        > seem to contradict itself in
        > that if there were no knowledge, then i do not
        > know everything that i have a
        > stated above. i do not know anything that i
        > have written so far. i merely
        > believe it. i also believe that anyone else's
        > ideas are no more valid than
        > mine due to the fact that their beliefs are
        > just that, beliefs, just as
        > mine are. even so, i feel that every idea and
        > law contradicts itself
        > leaving an impression of confusion and
        > hopelessness of ever finding reality.
        > because of this, one must find one's own idea of
        > what reality is to him or
        > her in order to cope with life.
        > >
        > > those are the basics of my loosely assembled
        > philosophy. please respond
        > to it as you wish. thanks.
        > >
        > > justin
        > >
        > > ==
        > > I contend that we are both atheists. I just
        > believe in one fewer god than
        > you do. When you understand why you dismiss all
        > the other possible gods, you
        > will understand why I dismiss yours.
        > >
        > >
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