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Re: Idealists

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  • William
    ... The State Dept. oversees American conduct outside our borders. I know Hillary Clinton is no pacifist but know she holds back Special Operations soldiers
    Message 1 of 6 , Dec 3, 2011
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      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@...> wrote:
      >
      > No loyalty oaths, please :)
      >
      > I've been listening to "Everyday People" recently as part of my extended summer of R&B, Soul, and Motown and can only say "Different strokes for different folks." Poets and intellectuals are as necessary to a culture as soldiers. Without ideals, we're defending property, not people.
      >
      > No doubt colonization and the subsequent wars waged in New England made it possible for those Transcendentalists to contemplate, revere, and write about what's beautiful and deadly in nature. Original peoples certainly didn't need them to understand birth control, conservation, spirit, or how to accommodate difference.
      >
      > My empathy with "army" lies specifically with soldiers themselves and not the logistical, mechanical efficiency of what transpires militarily but the obvious mental toll on combatants and broken communities. Ideas send people to battle, bring them home, and provide for reassessment of not only the price of war, but of its cost.
      >
      > Modern communities are bound by both specific and less cogent ideals but come in several guises: war veterans, stock markets, medical associations, banks, sports, internet forums, etc. This is not a post-ideological or post-political age but a cynical age, one of disavowal and incoherence. We say we're individual but depend on others, willingly or reluctantly.
      >
      > Mary
      > Mary, As I would expect you have never found a tree you wouldn`t hug. Mary, cactus live!Orders send soldiers to war,bring them home and civilian authorities issue such orders and reassesments. On opposite poles Spaznitz and idealistic pacifists fail because of ideology. Reliance on natural forces,identified poeticly, is a great way to starve or get eaten.
      The State Dept. oversees American conduct outside our borders. I know Hillary Clinton is no pacifist but know she holds back Special Operations soldiers from some assinations. Spaznitz have a good bit of trouble with rogue elements that sidestep civilian authority. When Obams and Clinton set togeather to watch the demise of Osama we saw the proper application of deadly force. All possibilities for suprise were maintained and our tactical troops prevailed. That was not cynical or incoherant but modernism at its razor best. Bill
      > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Thoraeu bothered me with his naive depection of the wild world. I was usually more concerned with weaponry than with poetry. Survival is the beginning of wisdom and giving the other side time to orient, time to attack is just not good survival tactics.
      > > I am so impressed by the US withdrawal in Iraque. We are all but out and the media is just printing the withdrawal news. Great Armies can move fast and powerfully and our logistic people have scored a hat trick. That kind of preformance is what could set me toward an idealistic swoon. The best Army in the world can move like a cat in the night. Hey, which side you on? Bill
      > >
      >
    • Mary
      Bill, What could be more cynical than representatives of two minorities recently come to power enacting a discourse which previously oppressed them and which
      Message 2 of 6 , Dec 4, 2011
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        Bill,

        What could be more cynical than representatives of two minorities recently come to power enacting a discourse which previously oppressed them and which they built careers opposing? If I didn't appreciate the prickly, I'd surely not persist here. And I haven't written a poem or hugged a tree in years. I'm more interested in philosophy and read accordingly, turning over stones to find slugs and gems.

        How is neocolonialism not an ideology? And surely, nationalism is an idealism created and sustained by myth. Neocolonial discourse has created modern Islamic states which are now also united by their own myths of superiority, as is reactionary Israel, and as are reactionary Europeans and Americans. Pluralist nations such as we are in danger of never having an identity except that of a super power devoid of ideals.

        Existentialism was a reaction not only to the horrors of perpetual wars but a suggestion for the return of philosophy (ontology, phenomenology) as preventative. You admire power and efficiency; I admire intellect and ideas which quell such necessity, not quaff them to their dregs. If you favor the individual against the social (family, community, nation), I'm remain puzzled by your enthusiasm for the collective known as state.

        When the only facts are money and power, truth becomes the enemy.

        Mary

        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@> wrote:
        > >
        > > No loyalty oaths, please :)
        > >
        > > I've been listening to "Everyday People" recently as part of my extended summer of R&B, Soul, and Motown and can only say "Different strokes for different folks." Poets and intellectuals are as necessary to a culture as soldiers. Without ideals, we're defending property, not people.
        > >
        > > No doubt colonization and the subsequent wars waged in New England made it possible for those Transcendentalists to contemplate, revere, and write about what's beautiful and deadly in nature. Original peoples certainly didn't need them to understand birth control, conservation, spirit, or how to accommodate difference.
        > >
        > > My empathy with "army" lies specifically with soldiers themselves and not the logistical, mechanical efficiency of what transpires militarily but the obvious mental toll on combatants and broken communities. Ideas send people to battle, bring them home, and provide for reassessment of not only the price of war, but of its cost.
        > >
        > > Modern communities are bound by both specific and less cogent ideals but come in several guises: war veterans, stock markets, medical associations, banks, sports, internet forums, etc. This is not a post-ideological or post-political age but a cynical age, one of disavowal and incoherence. We say we're individual but depend on others, willingly or reluctantly.
        > >
        > > Mary
        > > Mary, As I would expect you have never found a tree you wouldn`t hug. Mary, cactus live!Orders send soldiers to war,bring them home and civilian authorities issue such orders and reassesments. On opposite poles Spaznitz and idealistic pacifists fail because of ideology. Reliance on natural forces,identified poeticly, is a great way to starve or get eaten.
        > The State Dept. oversees American conduct outside our borders. I know Hillary Clinton is no pacifist but know she holds back Special Operations soldiers from some assinations. Spaznitz have a good bit of trouble with rogue elements that sidestep civilian authority. When Obams and Clinton set togeather to watch the demise of Osama we saw the proper application of deadly force. All possibilities for suprise were maintained and our tactical troops prevailed. That was not cynical or incoherant but modernism at its razor best. Bill
        > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Thoraeu bothered me with his naive depection of the wild world. I was usually more concerned with weaponry than with poetry. Survival is the beginning of wisdom and giving the other side time to orient, time to attack is just not good survival tactics.
        > > > I am so impressed by the US withdrawal in Iraque. We are all but out and the media is just printing the withdrawal news. Great Armies can move fast and powerfully and our logistic people have scored a hat trick. That kind of preformance is what could set me toward an idealistic swoon. The best Army in the world can move like a cat in the night. Hey, which side you on? Bill
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • William
        ... Yet world power bases are shifting. Yesterday the Russians came out against fracking as fracked natural gas would compete with the Russian monopoly of gas
        Message 3 of 6 , Dec 4, 2011
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          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@...> wrote:
          >
          > Bill,
          >
          > What could be more cynical than representatives of two minorities recently come to power enacting a discourse which previously oppressed them and which they built careers opposing? If I didn't appreciate the prickly, I'd surely not persist here. And I haven't written a poem or hugged a tree in years. I'm more interested in philosophy and read accordingly, turning over stones to find slugs and gems.
          >
          > How is neocolonialism not an ideology? And surely, nationalism is an idealism created and sustained by myth. Neocolonial discourse has created modern Islamic states which are now also united by their own myths of superiority, as is reactionary Israel, and as are reactionary Europeans and Americans. Pluralist nations such as we are in danger of never having an identity except that of a super power devoid of ideals.
          >
          > Existentialism was a reaction not only to the horrors of perpetual wars but a suggestion for the return of philosophy (ontology, phenomenology) as preventative. You admire power and efficiency; I admire intellect and ideas which quell such necessity, not quaff them to their dregs. If you favor the individual against the social (family, community, nation), I'm remain puzzled by your enthusiasm for the collective known as state.
          >
          > When the only facts are money and power, truth becomes the enemy.
          >
          > Mary
          > Mary, Your secound paragraph is fascinating. At the beginning of the twentieth century Disraeli said there were three kinds of lies;lies,damned lies and statistics.I do not know if our early attempts to modernise the tribal ,nomatic peoples of the mid east were much different than the domination of the native american peoples in the US. It takes time and money,lots and lots of money to change tribesmen to gentile citizens. Israel is the most ancient and perhaps reactionary of the regions polyglot peoples. Of course the Jews could not fit in as they are two millinia older than the islamics they hate. When US, Britain and France carved up the mid east all knew the damned lie,these peoples were tribal and the tribes needed to be broken up. Sadaam was tribal,Quedaffy was tribal Mubaric was pre tribal and only now after these many years are they gone. That Islamic republics might succeed these tyrants is most discouraging.
          Yet world power bases are shifting. Yesterday the Russians came out against fracking as fracked natural gas would compete with the Russian monopoly of gas sales to Europe. The Russians cite statistics to foist that lie. It sounds like the global warming numbers argument but will never get to a Keyoto Accord level. It is so self serving that most see through it. The meat of the meal is that there is a great deal of natural gas and energy will not be the hammer over our heads that it has been. We may have grown out of our neocolonalism since the oil is less critical a commodity. Years ago I said on this forum that the west cared not one damn for the Arabs, just the oil counted. That is the kind of judgements states can make and so yes, I side with my state or country. The damend lie suits my country and myself.
          Generations are shorter in third world countries . Still the population buldge in the middle east will take sixty years to recede. Until then arm them and let them fight conventional wars until their numbers lessen. If they attack us use mass destruction to defeat and punish them. Only super powers can do that and I am proud we are the big dog on the porch. The lie is we love the Islamic peoples but the statistics may be turning our way. Bill
          > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@> wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > No loyalty oaths, please :)
          > > >
          > > > I've been listening to "Everyday People" recently as part of my extended summer of R&B, Soul, and Motown and can only say "Different strokes for different folks." Poets and intellectuals are as necessary to a culture as soldiers. Without ideals, we're defending property, not people.
          > > >
          > > > No doubt colonization and the subsequent wars waged in New England made it possible for those Transcendentalists to contemplate, revere, and write about what's beautiful and deadly in nature. Original peoples certainly didn't need them to understand birth control, conservation, spirit, or how to accommodate difference.
          > > >
          > > > My empathy with "army" lies specifically with soldiers themselves and not the logistical, mechanical efficiency of what transpires militarily but the obvious mental toll on combatants and broken communities. Ideas send people to battle, bring them home, and provide for reassessment of not only the price of war, but of its cost.
          > > >
          > > > Modern communities are bound by both specific and less cogent ideals but come in several guises: war veterans, stock markets, medical associations, banks, sports, internet forums, etc. This is not a post-ideological or post-political age but a cynical age, one of disavowal and incoherence. We say we're individual but depend on others, willingly or reluctantly.
          > > >
          > > > Mary
          > > > Mary, As I would expect you have never found a tree you wouldn`t hug. Mary, cactus live!Orders send soldiers to war,bring them home and civilian authorities issue such orders and reassesments. On opposite poles Spaznitz and idealistic pacifists fail because of ideology. Reliance on natural forces,identified poeticly, is a great way to starve or get eaten.
          > > The State Dept. oversees American conduct outside our borders. I know Hillary Clinton is no pacifist but know she holds back Special Operations soldiers from some assinations. Spaznitz have a good bit of trouble with rogue elements that sidestep civilian authority. When Obams and Clinton set togeather to watch the demise of Osama we saw the proper application of deadly force. All possibilities for suprise were maintained and our tactical troops prevailed. That was not cynical or incoherant but modernism at its razor best. Bill
          > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@> wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > Thoraeu bothered me with his naive depection of the wild world. I was usually more concerned with weaponry than with poetry. Survival is the beginning of wisdom and giving the other side time to orient, time to attack is just not good survival tactics.
          > > > > I am so impressed by the US withdrawal in Iraque. We are all but out and the media is just printing the withdrawal news. Great Armies can move fast and powerfully and our logistic people have scored a hat trick. That kind of preformance is what could set me toward an idealistic swoon. The best Army in the world can move like a cat in the night. Hey, which side you on? Bill
          > > > >
          > > >
          > >
          >
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