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Re: Winding out

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  • Mary
    ... Bill, Feelin Alright by Traffic is running through my head. Meaning comes through daily, non-grandiose struggles within ourselves not necessarily against
    Message 1 of 9 , Oct 26, 2011
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      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@...> wrote:
      >
      > "I feel like its all been done" "Jet airliner " Steve Miller. This group may have said what it has to say about existentialism.
      > It has long been my thought that existentialism evolves from moment to moment as does reality. Now science tells us what is real, it changes but the base of science is very stable. Science informs existentialism of what is real. Morals and ethics are human opinions that often err and often change. Shria law for instance should change because it is primitive and stupid. That is why FN threw away morals especially when they were proposed as the word of god.
      > The moral responsibilities you lay on me are just not accepted because they are arbitrary and the behavours of the herd. I am not responsible for the herd and could not change its behavour if I wished to try.
      > This morning I read that a vatican commision is demanding the UN revamp world monitary matters in favor of greater justice for the heard. I wonder if they will accept a devaluation of vatican treasures in the revaluation. That is morals in action, just do not gore my ox.
      > Grubbing about and fighting for survival is a part of the cosmos and in the end we all lose. Posturing morally or ethically is gamesmanship but little else. We may have exhausted the psudo existential posturing of this stiltified time but it will change and someone will figure out how existentialism fits in. The philosophy of change has merit but in gridlock it seems a static universe. We know it is not ,it is expanding,faster. Bill
      >

      Bill,

      Feelin' Alright by Traffic is running through my head. Meaning comes through daily, non-grandiose struggles within ourselves not necessarily against but through others. I'm recently affected by Doris Lessing's "The Golden Notebook" and Terrence Malick's "The Tree of Life"; both outstanding and strongly existentialist. Since existentialist themes permeate the arts, Susan's willingness to allow book chatter in lieu of philosophy texts, might encourage participation. Even Zizek uses popular culture to illuminate difficult concepts but existentialism is easier and more slippery than other formal philosophies.

      Nothing is ever really settled, because the principles uncovered through science and philosophy are interpreted personally which is as you say existentialist. There's no avoiding moral questions. The sense of duty to oneself is a moral position. Whether to use violence is a moral question. So yes, feelings and opinions will constantly change over time. And if philosophy has appeared on the radar, it means thought can be a neutral tool for creating examined, meaningful lives if we choose this for ourselves.

      That you and I represent at least two different reactions to the same knowledge, affirms the tenets of existentialism, the speculative nature of science, and the inherent frustrations and danger of politics. I see an ethical state as practical and flourishing, while you see it as weak and derived from archaic religions. I note in physics a dialectical dynamic, while you focus on particles and mechanism. In biology, I acknowledge nurture and destruction, but you emphasize struggle and annihilation over fostering and encouragement.

      It's been a contentious, satisfying, and for me, necessary ride. Thanks for your testy but polite engagement. Everyone's authenticity has restored my own.

      Mary
    • William
      I have just emerged victorious from a tech battle. I thought my Dell was stste of the art but the Geek Squad dude said it was eight years old and needed a new
      Message 2 of 9 , Oct 26, 2011
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        I have just emerged victorious from a tech battle. I thought my Dell was stste of the art but the Geek Squad dude said it was eight years old and needed a new brain box. So I ordered the tower and elected to keep the peripherals. Melding the new with old seemed a formidible task and as I searched the big box for the instruction manuel I feared I had made a mistake. The manuel was only four pages with few graphs or pictures. The old computer had a wireless mouse and a full sound system with woofer and several smaller speakers. The old tower supported a wireless intra office network with modem and router. it was a spagetti work of tangled cables and breaker bars. I felt totally overwhelmed. The first direction was impossible as the old computer had no such connector. I went maggot and empirical and started trial and error match ups of the connectors. When everything was plugged in I turned it on and it actually came on. It asked me to pass word it and I did. Then it said it could not go on the net because the ethernet cable was not plugged in. I searched through the ball of wires and found the unplugged connection. I plugged it in and the internet came up on my wireless equiptment. I am freeking amased!I have no formal training with hardware or software but Dell had preloaded solutions even a lout like me could not mess up. That machine knew what it wanted to do and made me do it. I did not have to load drivers, I did not need to insert disks, It was all in there already. That is truly progress and I am impressed. That a computer illeterate can assemble and run these systems is to me an engineering wonder. Thanks Dell you have reaffirmed my trust in american tech and I feel I have a new lease on tech life. As I downloaded my favorites I actually felt a pride in the power of my civilisation and its problem solving abilities. That the new technology can drag along an old unsophistacated fellow player really impresses me. I am still counted, I am still a player. Science and technology joined with an existential free spirit can still produce. The damn thing works! Bill
      • William
        ... Mary, The YMCA motto, Not if you win or lose ,but how you play the game runs counter to FN`s That which does not kill me makes me stronger . It could be
        Message 3 of 9 , Oct 26, 2011
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          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@...> wrote:
          >
          > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@> wrote:
          > >
          > > "I feel like its all been done" "Jet airliner " Steve Miller. This group may have said what it has to say about existentialism.
          > > It has long been my thought that existentialism evolves from moment to moment as does reality. Now science tells us what is real, it changes but the base of science is very stable. Science informs existentialism of what is real. Morals and ethics are human opinions that often err and often change. Shria law for instance should change because it is primitive and stupid. That is why FN threw away morals especially when they were proposed as the word of god.
          > > The moral responsibilities you lay on me are just not accepted because they are arbitrary and the behavours of the herd. I am not responsible for the herd and could not change its behavour if I wished to try.
          > > This morning I read that a vatican commision is demanding the UN revamp world monitary matters in favor of greater justice for the heard. I wonder if they will accept a devaluation of vatican treasures in the revaluation. That is morals in action, just do not gore my ox.
          > > Grubbing about and fighting for survival is a part of the cosmos and in the end we all lose. Posturing morally or ethically is gamesmanship but little else. We may have exhausted the psudo existential posturing of this stiltified time but it will change and someone will figure out how existentialism fits in. The philosophy of change has merit but in gridlock it seems a static universe. We know it is not ,it is expanding,faster. Bill
          > >
          >
          > Bill,
          >
          > Feelin' Alright by Traffic is running through my head. Meaning comes through daily, non-grandiose struggles within ourselves not necessarily against but through others. I'm recently affected by Doris Lessing's "The Golden Notebook" and Terrence Malick's "The Tree of Life"; both outstanding and strongly existentialist. Since existentialist themes permeate the arts, Susan's willingness to allow book chatter in lieu of philosophy texts, might encourage participation. Even Zizek uses popular culture to illuminate difficult concepts but existentialism is easier and more slippery than other formal philosophies.
          >
          > Nothing is ever really settled, because the principles uncovered through science and philosophy are interpreted personally which is as you say existentialist. There's no avoiding moral questions. The sense of duty to oneself is a moral position. Whether to use violence is a moral question. So yes, feelings and opinions will constantly change over time. And if philosophy has appeared on the radar, it means thought can be a neutral tool for creating examined, meaningful lives if we choose this for ourselves.
          >
          > That you and I represent at least two different reactions to the same knowledge, affirms the tenets of existentialism, the speculative nature of science, and the inherent frustrations and danger of politics. I see an ethical state as practical and flourishing, while you see it as weak and derived from archaic religions. I note in physics a dialectical dynamic, while you focus on particles and mechanism. In biology, I acknowledge nurture and destruction, but you emphasize struggle and annihilation over fostering and encouragement.
          >
          > It's been a contentious, satisfying, and for me, necessary ride. Thanks for your testy but polite engagement. Everyone's authenticity has restored my own.
          >
          > Mary
          >
          Mary, The YMCA motto,"Not if you win or lose ,but how you play the game" runs counter to FN`s "That which does not kill me makes me stronger". It could be explained by the intensity levels of the people considered. Testy, OK, thats better than being called a masoginist. I have always shook hands with an opponent,win or lose.
          When wrestling with a problem I have a time warp. Time flies as my mind races to find a solution. It is as if my mind goes into overdrive and I know adrenalin is at work. It is as if I am alive by half as much,again. I like that existance and look for it when normal beats me down. I think it to be hormones and that assures me I am an animal not some sort of spirtual being. Now I could stop and just brand the behavour as emotional but that is inaccurate and hits short of what is actually known. For me to brand you as an emotional female would be just as simplistic and you would be correct in thinking me a backward boor. That you generate different catecholemines in different quantities would be more the truth. Since I do not feel your hormones and you do not feel mine ,asking for consensus seems more than what is possible. You cannot walk a mile in anybody elses shoes and I do not try or ask anyone else to attempt such an impossibility. Such things are played out in results and are recorded in the genes of the survivors. In that sense losers do not matter,they just die with their genome. Your commitment to reproduction makes you a big winner as your genes are in the future of more people than most but that is species related and not personal. We just went beyond 7 billion humans and the problems that number entail will be for younger folks to confront. Since many of them are ignorant and poor and the top 1% take more and more it would seem the conflict of the future comes into focus. Im for the winners acting like grateous victors and confronting the congestion with generosity and reproductive technology. Those who continue on the present course for narrow motives are wrong and against their own species. Such people come as close to a concept of sinners as I can imagine. Bill
        • Andrew Rix
          Which Zizek book would you recommend a beginner? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          Message 4 of 9 , Oct 26, 2011
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            Which Zizek book would you recommend a beginner?


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • eupraxis@aol.com
            Welcome to the Desert of the Real. Wil ... From: Andrew Rix To: existlist Sent: Wed, Oct 26, 2011 9:45 pm
            Message 5 of 9 , Oct 26, 2011
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              Welcome to the Desert of the Real.


              Wil



              -----Original Message-----
              From: Andrew Rix <andyrix13@...>
              To: existlist <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wed, Oct 26, 2011 9:45 pm
              Subject: [existlist] Re: Winding out





              Which Zizek book would you recommend a beginner?

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • irvhal
              Bill, Glad you like your new computer. (But why do we all continue to post under the subject Winding out, when far from winding out (or down) the board seems
              Message 6 of 9 , Oct 27, 2011
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                Bill,

                Glad you like your new computer. (But why do we all continue to post under the subject "Winding out," when far from winding out (or down) the board seems alive and kicking?) Like all new tools or equipment, to know is to do, and our achieving an unthinking or casual mastery of a thing -- be it car, hammer or computer -- is gist for thought about Being. Heidegger would say that in deploying a thing we understand it. It becomes meaningful, a part of our ongoing world of meanings, references and relations. What he called a thing ready-to-hand. But let it break (or crash) and there's the rub. What was useful, ready, meaningful (or what some might call taken-for granted) is now but present-at-hand, an occasion for diappointment and frustration, but so too an occasion for reflection on Being.

                Irvin

                --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@...> wrote:
                >
                > I have just emerged victorious from a tech battle. I thought my Dell was stste of the art but the Geek Squad dude said it was eight years old and needed a new brain box. So I ordered the tower and elected to keep the peripherals. Melding the new with old seemed a formidible task and as I searched the big box for the instruction manuel I feared I had made a mistake. The manuel was only four pages with few graphs or pictures. The old computer had a wireless mouse and a full sound system with woofer and several smaller speakers. The old tower supported a wireless intra office network with modem and router. it was a spagetti work of tangled cables and breaker bars. I felt totally overwhelmed. The first direction was impossible as the old computer had no such connector. I went maggot and empirical and started trial and error match ups of the connectors. When everything was plugged in I turned it on and it actually came on. It asked me to pass word it and I did. Then it said it could not go on the net because the ethernet cable was not plugged in. I searched through the ball of wires and found the unplugged connection. I plugged it in and the internet came up on my wireless equiptment. I am freeking amased!I have no formal training with hardware or software but Dell had preloaded solutions even a lout like me could not mess up. That machine knew what it wanted to do and made me do it. I did not have to load drivers, I did not need to insert disks, It was all in there already. That is truly progress and I am impressed. That a computer illeterate can assemble and run these systems is to me an engineering wonder. Thanks Dell you have reaffirmed my trust in american tech and I feel I have a new lease on tech life. As I downloaded my favorites I actually felt a pride in the power of my civilisation and its problem solving abilities. That the new technology can drag along an old unsophistacated fellow player really impresses me. I am still counted, I am still a player. Science and technology joined with an existential free spirit can still produce. The damn thing works! Bill
                >
              • William
                Message 7 of 9 , Oct 28, 2011
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                  --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "irvhal" <i99hj@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Bill,
                  >
                  > Glad you like your new computer. (But why do we all continue to post under the subject "Winding out," when far from winding out (or down) the board seems alive and kicking?) Like all new tools or equipment, to know is to do, and our achieving an unthinking or casual mastery of a thing -- be it car, hammer or computer -- is gist for thought about Being. Heidegger would say that in deploying a thing we understand it. It becomes meaningful, a part of our ongoing world of meanings, references and relations. What he called a thing ready-to-hand. But let it break (or crash) and there's the rub. What was useful, ready, meaningful (or what some might call taken-for granted) is now but present-at-hand, an occasion for diappointment and frustration, but so too an occasion for reflection on Being.
                  >
                  > Irvin
                  > Irvin, I have read that when life was consuumed with survival concerns there was little or no thought of being or philosophy. Without written language only verbal records could transfer ideas to the next generation. Amoung our seven billion fellow travelors few care to think of being as many are fighting to retain it. I would ask you to relate time to being. I consider stasis to be an impossibility and the passage of time to be the record of escape from the past. Hubble has thrust us into the realisation of a dynamic, expanding universe. At the big bang all was energy and we all know that mass and energy are interrelated . It would seem that an all energy beginning cosmos is evolving into a more mass inclusive cosmos. Super novi and energy spewing black holes are reversing this process but increasing expansion leads to a colder more separate number of galaxies. As energy consuuming beings we would seem to mirror the cosmos in general. All that we do in using our energies for thought and respiration are useless and lost in our outward thrust into the cold. This is the new scientific nihilism and I find it fascinating. How could FN have known of this and how did Heidegger arrive at the huge nihilism of National Socialism? I know most on this list reject nihilism but I see it as the terminal point that may or may not explode into a new energy explosion. Wanting stasis, working for harmony might just be against the thrust of time and cosmic evolution. What do you think? Bill
                  > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > I have just emerged victorious from a tech battle. I thought my Dell was stste of the art but the Geek Squad dude said it was eight years old and needed a new brain box. So I ordered the tower and elected to keep the peripherals. Melding the new with old seemed a formidible task and as I searched the big box for the instruction manuel I feared I had made a mistake. The manuel was only four pages with few graphs or pictures. The old computer had a wireless mouse and a full sound system with woofer and several smaller speakers. The old tower supported a wireless intra office network with modem and router. it was a spagetti work of tangled cables and breaker bars. I felt totally overwhelmed. The first direction was impossible as the old computer had no such connector. I went maggot and empirical and started trial and error match ups of the connectors. When everything was plugged in I turned it on and it actually came on. It asked me to pass word it and I did. Then it said it could not go on the net because the ethernet cable was not plugged in. I searched through the ball of wires and found the unplugged connection. I plugged it in and the internet came up on my wireless equiptment. I am freeking amased!I have no formal training with hardware or software but Dell had preloaded solutions even a lout like me could not mess up. That machine knew what it wanted to do and made me do it. I did not have to load drivers, I did not need to insert disks, It was all in there already. That is truly progress and I am impressed. That a computer illeterate can assemble and run these systems is to me an engineering wonder. Thanks Dell you have reaffirmed my trust in american tech and I feel I have a new lease on tech life. As I downloaded my favorites I actually felt a pride in the power of my civilisation and its problem solving abilities. That the new technology can drag along an old unsophistacated fellow player really impresses me. I am still counted, I am still a player. Science and technology joined with an existential free spirit can still produce. The damn thing works! Bill
                  > >
                  >
                • irvhal
                  Bill, I don t think that nihilism as popularly perceived and condemned is what Nietzsche or Heidegger are about, but rather a concern over the ossification
                  Message 8 of 9 , Oct 30, 2011
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                    Bill,

                    I don't think that "nihilism" as popularly perceived and condemned is what Nietzsche or Heidegger are about, but rather a concern over the ossification of thought. Truth is an historic and dynamic process, or what the Greeks called aletheia or unconcealment. Only recently, Einstein's thought was called into question by new discoveries about the speed of light. Such unconcealment wouldn't be had were we hostage to an ossified metaphysics deifying Einstein's conclusions. Nor should schools of science -- the study of beings -- be confused with the Being of beings. Nor, by way of analogy, should artifacts or heirlooms born of sentiment or history be reduced to their molecules. As Heidegger noted, there would be beings without us, but no aletheia or unconcealment.

                    Irvin

                    --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > > Irvin, I have read that when life was consuumed with survival concerns there was little or no thought of being or philosophy. Without written language only verbal records could transfer ideas to the next generation. Amoung our seven billion fellow travelors few care to think of being as many are fighting to retain it. I would ask you to relate time to being. I consider stasis to be an impossibility and the passage of time to be the record of escape from the past. Hubble has thrust us into the realisation of a dynamic, expanding universe. At the big bang all was energy and we all know that mass and energy are interrelated . It would seem that an all energy beginning cosmos is evolving into a more mass inclusive cosmos. Super novi and energy spewing black holes are reversing this process but increasing expansion leads to a colder more separate number of galaxies. As energy consuuming beings we would seem to mirror the cosmos in general. All that we do in using our energies for thought and respiration are useless and lost in our outward thrust into the cold. This is the new scientific nihilism and I find it fascinating. How could FN have known of this and how did Heidegger arrive at the huge nihilism of National Socialism? I know most on this list reject nihilism but I see it as the terminal point that may or may not explode into a new energy explosion. Wanting stasis, working for harmony might just be against the thrust of time and cosmic evolution. What do you think? Bill
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