Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Winding down

Expand Messages
  • William
    A recent poll found in a eighteen to thirty two year old survey 56% were unemployed. The greater number were high school educated or less and many were
    Message 1 of 26 , Oct 4, 2011
    View Source
    • 0 Attachment
      A recent poll found in a eighteen to thirty two year old survey 56% were unemployed. The greater number were high school educated or less and many were living at home. This is an unwanted social experiment that leaves a generation half on the dole. I see no way this can work .
      The lazys and crazys are combining to sabotage the country. The ideological right is holding the jobs bill hostage in the house. The lost generation are comfortable at home, playing video games and waiting on their checks. The young are marching but they do not know why. They are marching on Wall Street but were stopped on the Brooklin Bridge. Their nominal leader does not know why they are marching.
      It seems the rich are refusing to pay for the poor and the poor are refusing to work at all. That is class warfare and how that ends I have little idea. Perhaps we are in for something like the French revolution. Feed them cake until they come and take you to the block.
      So we wait while most do nothing, the young workers do not work,the congress does not legislate and it just keeps winding down. There seems little chance this will change and the gridlock deepens. Bill
    • Josie
      Bill, If this poll is an accurate representation, it demonstrates the failure of capitalism. If corporations aren t motivated enough to influence curricula
      Message 2 of 26 , Oct 6, 2011
      View Source
      • 0 Attachment
        Bill,

        If this poll is an accurate representation, it demonstrates the failure of capitalism. If corporations aren't motivated enough to influence curricula and fund educational institutions in order to produce skilled workers, then they too are responsible for their own failures. What ever happend to the two-track system in secondary education when students had the option of academic or vocational preparation? Guidance offices display flow charts warning students that without a college degree, all paths lead to McDonalds.

        It's also possible this demographic is genuinely not buying into this system after seeing the toll it wreaks on relationships. Why bother struggling just to have one set-back drop you into poverty with no pension or health insurance? Why not have that fixed income now? If this `lazy' demographic is cut off, perhaps it will be motivated for shared political change. Yet in some way, those who don't have the will to survive, according to what we consider the norm, are as worthy of the dole as the elderly and infirm. No one would dare cut off these latter. Is lack of will to prosper a disease?

        Self-centered politics is an oxymoron. The cognitive dissonance created by capitalism is coming home to roost in this unlikely demographic. Socialism is a better framework for self-reliance to succeed. You can still own your own business but can't exploit your workers. If banking and financial securities were governed instead of governing, we wouldn't be having these rolling crises. It's time to stop scapegoating, specific demographics, including the poor, immigrant, and minority, and put blame where it belongs.

        Winding down together,
        Mary

        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@...> wrote:
        >
        > A recent poll found in a eighteen to thirty two year old survey 56% were unemployed. The greater number were high school educated or less and many were living at home. This is an unwanted social experiment that leaves a generation half on the dole. I see no way this can work .
        > The lazys and crazys are combining to sabotage the country. The ideological right is holding the jobs bill hostage in the house. The lost generation are comfortable at home, playing video games and waiting on their checks. The young are marching but they do not know why. They are marching on Wall Street but were stopped on the Brooklin Bridge. Their nominal leader does not know why they are marching.
        > It seems the rich are refusing to pay for the poor and the poor are refusing to work at all. That is class warfare and how that ends I have little idea. Perhaps we are in for something like the French revolution. Feed them cake until they come and take you to the block.
        > So we wait while most do nothing, the young workers do not work,the congress does not legislate and it just keeps winding down. There seems little chance this will change and the gridlock deepens. Bill
        >
      • William
        I just listened to a construction superintendant from Chicago who said he could use twenty welders but there are none. The union apprentice schools are empty
        Message 3 of 26 , Oct 6, 2011
        View Source
        • 0 Attachment
          I just listened to a construction superintendant from Chicago who said he could use twenty welders but there are none. The union apprentice schools are empty as the young do not want construction jobs they want white collar work. Skilled union construction takes years of training young people are in the streets but what they want may no longer exist. Soft, unskilled jobs are gone, if there ever were many of them. Piece work is done by machines and employees are expensive. The fewer the hands on the pie the more pie for each.
          I would bet that many of the protesters were working in those NY buildings they now picket. The banks and insurance companies do not need them back,technology has gobbled up those jobs and the bosses plan to pocket the gain. So they are protesting the right people. Now what they can accomplish is another question.
          You, Mary demand greater socialism and "We are the 99%" sounds quite powerful when screamed by thousands. If the left can`t figure how to get a win out of this debacle then they are as inept as I fear. You give people a bigger dole and they will grow into it fast. The generation that has failed to enter the work force are primed to be the first non working generation and Mary wants to give them every opportunity. Whose going to pick up the garbage? Whos going to fix the leak when all the plumbers were never trained, they are on the dole. Capitalism makes people work. Asshole bosses and foremen coerce workers to put out. I see the concept of work itself being questioned and perhaps it is time for civilasation to have the debate. If you are socialist I would ask that you answer how we manage to get the work done. Since you and I are at the end of our work lives this is really a young person matter. I think the young will move left and the pendulum will move from the right to the middle. Distrubution and maintance are going to be crucial in the next few years. Bill
        • Josie
          Bill, Wages for welders were cut in half in the seventies, never rebounding. and tech schools glutted the market. Union halls are empty, because lower wage,
          Message 4 of 26 , Oct 6, 2011
          View Source
          • 0 Attachment
            Bill,

            Wages for welders were cut in half in the seventies, never rebounding. and tech schools glutted the market. Union halls are empty, because lower wage, non-union workers took what jobs there were during that first recession. When the economy rebounded from time to time, construction wages did not. Not enough demand made that particular skill not worth learning. It's more an art form anyway, if you want safe, quality work. Production or assembly line welding is done by robots these days.

            Mary

            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@...> wrote:
            >
            > I just listened to a construction superintendant from Chicago who said he could use twenty welders but there are none. The union apprentice schools are empty as the young do not want construction jobs they want white collar work. Skilled union construction takes years of training young people are in the streets but what they want may no longer exist. Soft, unskilled jobs are gone, if there ever were many of them. Piece work is done by machines and employees are expensive. The fewer the hands on the pie the more pie for each.
            > I would bet that many of the protesters were working in those NY buildings they now picket. The banks and insurance companies do not need them back,technology has gobbled up those jobs and the bosses plan to pocket the gain. So they are protesting the right people. Now what they can accomplish is another question.
            > You, Mary demand greater socialism and "We are the 99%" sounds quite powerful when screamed by thousands. If the left can`t figure how to get a win out of this debacle then they are as inept as I fear. You give people a bigger dole and they will grow into it fast. The generation that has failed to enter the work force are primed to be the first non working generation and Mary wants to give them every opportunity. Whose going to pick up the garbage? Whos going to fix the leak when all the plumbers were never trained, they are on the dole. Capitalism makes people work. Asshole bosses and foremen coerce workers to put out. I see the concept of work itself being questioned and perhaps it is time for civilasation to have the debate. If you are socialist I would ask that you answer how we manage to get the work done. Since you and I are at the end of our work lives this is really a young person matter. I think the young will move left and the pendulum will move from the right to the middle. Distrubution and maintance are going to be crucial in the next few years. Bill
            >
          • William
            Message 5 of 26 , Oct 6, 2011
            View Source
            • 0 Attachment
              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Josie" <josephson45r@...> wrote:
              >
              > Bill,
              >
              > Wages for welders were cut in half in the seventies, never rebounding. and tech schools glutted the market. Union halls are empty, because lower wage, non-union workers took what jobs there were during that first recession. When the economy rebounded from time to time, construction wages did not. Not enough demand made that particular skill not worth learning. It's more an art form anyway, if you want safe, quality work. Production or assembly line welding is done by robots these days.
              >
              > Mary
              > Mary, a cogent argument!What of the perloners who pre interrtupt for cause. I must excite them as I know the proper response is roundly negative. Just keep the talking and avoid the shooting. If they call for a shoot out then we will wait on the other side of the catastrophy. I hate to waste rounds. Bill
              > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@> wrote:
              > >
              > > I just listened to a construction superintendant from Chicago who said he could use twenty welders but there are none. The union apprentice schools are empty as the young do not want construction jobs they want white collar work. Skilled union construction takes years of training young people are in the streets but what they want may no longer exist. Soft, unskilled jobs are gone, if there ever were many of them. Piece work is done by machines and employees are expensive. The fewer the hands on the pie the more pie for each.
              > > I would bet that many of the protesters were working in those NY buildings they now picket. The banks and insurance companies do not need them back,technology has gobbled up those jobs and the bosses plan to pocket the gain. So they are protesting the right people. Now what they can accomplish is another question.
              > > You, Mary demand greater socialism and "We are the 99%" sounds quite powerful when screamed by thousands. If the left can`t figure how to get a win out of this debacle then they are as inept as I fear. You give people a bigger dole and they will grow into it fast. The generation that has failed to enter the work force are primed to be the first non working generation and Mary wants to give them every opportunity. Whose going to pick up the garbage? Whos going to fix the leak when all the plumbers were never trained, they are on the dole. Capitalism makes people work. Asshole bosses and foremen coerce workers to put out. I see the concept of work itself being questioned and perhaps it is time for civilasation to have the debate. If you are socialist I would ask that you answer how we manage to get the work done. Since you and I are at the end of our work lives this is really a young person matter. I think the young will move left and the pendulum will move from the right to the middle. Distrubution and maintance are going to be crucial in the next few years. Bill
              > >
              >
            • Andy Rix
              I should be shocked - but sorry to say I am not the least bit surprised at the number of unemployed you referenced below. In my past work in social services as
              Message 6 of 26 , Oct 13, 2011
              View Source
              • 0 Attachment
                I should be shocked - but sorry to say I am not the least bit surprised at
                the number of unemployed you referenced below. In my past work in social
                services as an employment and training counselor, I saw many able bodied
                individuals would rather stay home and collect public assistance and smoke
                dope than work. This was five years ago when there were jobs. I still work
                in social services but not directly with the public but I still see evidence
                of this "You owe me America" attitude. Granted there are some that really
                require public assistance because they are unable to work due to disability
                or other debilitating circumstance; HOWEVER, those who are able should work
                for their assistance. In my community parks are closed because local
                government can't afford to pay staff. Streets and public buildings
                desperately need cleaning and repair due to neglect caused my lack of tax
                revenue. I say, make those collecting welfare checks work off their
                assistance through supervised community service.



                I



                From: existlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                Of William
                Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 1:34 PM
                To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [existlist] Winding down





                A recent poll found in a eighteen to thirty two year old survey 56% were
                unemployed. The greater number were high school educated or less and many
                were living at home. This is an unwanted social experiment that leaves a
                generation half on the dole. I see no way this can work .
                The lazys and crazys are combining to sabotage the country. The ideological
                right is holding the jobs bill hostage in the house. The lost generation are
                comfortable at home, playing video games and waiting on their checks. The
                young are marching but they do not know why. They are marching on Wall
                Street but were stopped on the Brooklin Bridge. Their nominal leader does
                not know why they are marching.
                It seems the rich are refusing to pay for the poor and the poor are refusing
                to work at all. That is class warfare and how that ends I have little idea.
                Perhaps we are in for something like the French revolution. Feed them cake
                until they come and take you to the block.
                So we wait while most do nothing, the young workers do not work,the congress
                does not legislate and it just keeps winding down. There seems little chance
                this will change and the gridlock deepens. Bill





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • William
                ... What is going on with the anti wallstreet demonstrations is overdue and inevitable. The big boys have to be reeled in or the system will collapse. 2008
                Message 7 of 26 , Oct 14, 2011
                View Source
                • 0 Attachment
                  --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Andy Rix" <andyrix13@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I should be shocked - but sorry to say I am not the least bit surprised at
                  > the number of unemployed you referenced below. In my past work in social
                  > services as an employment and training counselor, I saw many able bodied
                  > individuals would rather stay home and collect public assistance and smoke
                  > dope than work. This was five years ago when there were jobs. I still work
                  > in social services but not directly with the public but I still see evidence
                  > of this "You owe me America" attitude. Granted there are some that really
                  > require public assistance because they are unable to work due to disability
                  > or other debilitating circumstance; HOWEVER, those who are able should work
                  > for their assistance. In my community parks are closed because local
                  > government can't afford to pay staff. Streets and public buildings
                  > desperately need cleaning and repair due to neglect caused my lack of tax
                  > revenue. I say, make those collecting welfare checks work off their
                  > assistance through supervised community service.
                  >
                  >Andy, I appreciate your comments and your experience lends credance to your words. Let me say that the american tax situation is in a shambles and the continuance of the present lobbying system will only make it worse. I have never been on the dole and never plan to be. I do not see social security as a give away as the monies were earned and given to the government years ago. As an independant employer I paid half the taxes on many ,many employees and paid for all the bookeeping costs for them and the government. Big business and its lobbyists make sure that remains the case and the unfairness just grows as the politicians further corrupt the system.
                  What is going on with the anti wallstreet demonstrations is overdue and inevitable. The big boys have to be reeled in or the system will collapse. 2008 just about did the trick and unless those getting screwed rise up we will have desaster. The business / pig coalition thinks repression will win out but the more clubbing they do the fewer votes they will get. Stealing an election like Bush did will this time cause revolution so the rich are playing with the headsman as they push for more and more.I surly hope good sense prevails . When the molotov`s start we will know the time is here. None of that is necessary as if the democracy were allowed to function balance could be restored but the right wing prerevolution is now being countered by a left wing activism. The masters must bend or the people will break them. My advice to most here is stay the hell out of it. It is real,it is dangerous and it can ruin your life. Let the true politicos pay for their cheap thrills as they will be the next corruptors. Bill
                  >
                  > I
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > From: existlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                  > Of William
                  > Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 1:34 PM
                  > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: [existlist] Winding down
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > A recent poll found in a eighteen to thirty two year old survey 56% were
                  > unemployed. The greater number were high school educated or less and many
                  > were living at home. This is an unwanted social experiment that leaves a
                  > generation half on the dole. I see no way this can work .
                  > The lazys and crazys are combining to sabotage the country. The ideological
                  > right is holding the jobs bill hostage in the house. The lost generation are
                  > comfortable at home, playing video games and waiting on their checks. The
                  > young are marching but they do not know why. They are marching on Wall
                  > Street but were stopped on the Brooklin Bridge. Their nominal leader does
                  > not know why they are marching.
                  > It seems the rich are refusing to pay for the poor and the poor are refusing
                  > to work at all. That is class warfare and how that ends I have little idea.
                  > Perhaps we are in for something like the French revolution. Feed them cake
                  > until they come and take you to the block.
                  > So we wait while most do nothing, the young workers do not work,the congress
                  > does not legislate and it just keeps winding down. There seems little chance
                  > this will change and the gridlock deepens. Bill
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • Josie
                  Bill, As a lefty l now enlightened by Zizek s scandalous critique, I ll not discourage our Caucasian Autumn, if I may coin as equally an unenlightened phrase
                  Message 8 of 26 , Oct 15, 2011
                  View Source
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Bill,

                    As a lefty l now enlightened by Zizek's scandalous critique, I'll not discourage our Caucasian Autumn, if I may coin as equally an unenlightened phrase as Arab Spring. My own caution runs along these lines and includes the notion that Tea Party attacks on Wall St. are an example of a cognitive dissonance which fuels the right.

                    Here's a humorous opinion piece I found in a liberal newspaper.
                    http://www.expressmilwaukee.com/article-16380-wisconsin-goes-national.html

                    When I recently heard Bill Clinton suggest Wall St. protesters needed to contribute positive suggestions, I laughed. How easily one forgets a mere forty plus years ago simply saying something was wrong was sufficient to change history. Perhaps those who felt they were creating real change really weren't and are now doing what they can to show they didn't!

                    Mary

                    --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Andy Rix" <andyrix13@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > I should be shocked - but sorry to say I am not the least bit surprised at
                    > > the number of unemployed you referenced below. In my past work in social
                    > > services as an employment and training counselor, I saw many able bodied
                    > > individuals would rather stay home and collect public assistance and smoke
                    > > dope than work. This was five years ago when there were jobs. I still work
                    > > in social services but not directly with the public but I still see evidence
                    > > of this "You owe me America" attitude. Granted there are some that really
                    > > require public assistance because they are unable to work due to disability
                    > > or other debilitating circumstance; HOWEVER, those who are able should work
                    > > for their assistance. In my community parks are closed because local
                    > > government can't afford to pay staff. Streets and public buildings
                    > > desperately need cleaning and repair due to neglect caused my lack of tax
                    > > revenue. I say, make those collecting welfare checks work off their
                    > > assistance through supervised community service.
                    > >
                    > >Andy, I appreciate your comments and your experience lends credance to your words. Let me say that the american tax situation is in a shambles and the continuance of the present lobbying system will only make it worse. I have never been on the dole and never plan to be. I do not see social security as a give away as the monies were earned and given to the government years ago. As an independant employer I paid half the taxes on many ,many employees and paid for all the bookeeping costs for them and the government. Big business and its lobbyists make sure that remains the case and the unfairness just grows as the politicians further corrupt the system.
                    > What is going on with the anti wallstreet demonstrations is overdue and inevitable. The big boys have to be reeled in or the system will collapse. 2008 just about did the trick and unless those getting screwed rise up we will have desaster. The business / pig coalition thinks repression will win out but the more clubbing they do the fewer votes they will get. Stealing an election like Bush did will this time cause revolution so the rich are playing with the headsman as they push for more and more.I surly hope good sense prevails . When the molotov`s start we will know the time is here. None of that is necessary as if the democracy were allowed to function balance could be restored but the right wing prerevolution is now being countered by a left wing activism. The masters must bend or the people will break them. My advice to most here is stay the hell out of it. It is real,it is dangerous and it can ruin your life. Let the true politicos pay for their cheap thrills as they will be the next corruptors. Bill
                    > >
                    > > I
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > From: existlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                    > > Of William
                    > > Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 1:34 PM
                    > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                    > > Subject: [existlist] Winding down
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > A recent poll found in a eighteen to thirty two year old survey 56% were
                    > > unemployed. The greater number were high school educated or less and many
                    > > were living at home. This is an unwanted social experiment that leaves a
                    > > generation half on the dole. I see no way this can work .
                    > > The lazys and crazys are combining to sabotage the country. The ideological
                    > > right is holding the jobs bill hostage in the house. The lost generation are
                    > > comfortable at home, playing video games and waiting on their checks. The
                    > > young are marching but they do not know why. They are marching on Wall
                    > > Street but were stopped on the Brooklin Bridge. Their nominal leader does
                    > > not know why they are marching.
                    > > It seems the rich are refusing to pay for the poor and the poor are refusing
                    > > to work at all. That is class warfare and how that ends I have little idea.
                    > > Perhaps we are in for something like the French revolution. Feed them cake
                    > > until they come and take you to the block.
                    > > So we wait while most do nothing, the young workers do not work,the congress
                    > > does not legislate and it just keeps winding down. There seems little chance
                    > > this will change and the gridlock deepens. Bill
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    >
                  • William
                    Mary, that article pretty well outlines the leftist position. I recall Kent State and the great amount of time and treasure later required to extract us from
                    Message 9 of 26 , Oct 15, 2011
                    View Source
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Mary, that article pretty well outlines the leftist position. I recall Kent State and the great amount of time and treasure later required to extract us from Viet nam. Destroying the banking system and pillaging the middle class are akin to sending millions to fight a war that no one wanted. The right has always played hard ball and blood and death is just fine with them as long as it is not their blood or death. The oil wars are fought by the young poor who could not get a job and went to the military to survive. Only the young can remedy this mad imbalance and they must learn that their opponents care not one fat damn for the lives or fortunes of political enemies. Jamie Diamond belongs in the joint with Madoff and until the young make the battle personal the masters of greed will continue to run rampant. I fully expect an attempt to steal the election and the ginning up of a war with Iran could be the context for special wartime emergency measures to put a republican back in power. We face an internal radical elite that will stop at nothing to keep power. A war with Iran could get the draft reinstated and the right could send the young to death in the sand. Without a war the F35 will never be built and you and I know how badly we need an F35. Ask the defense contractors and they will tell you. Bill
                    • William
                      ... And while I am on a rant I must report that the MIC fully expects to build the F35. The Wall Street Journal is discussing the stock merits of Raytheon Vs,
                      Message 10 of 26 , Oct 15, 2011
                      View Source
                      • 0 Attachment
                        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Mary, that article pretty well outlines the leftist position. I recall Kent State and the great amount of time and treasure later required to extract us from Viet nam. Destroying the banking system and pillaging the middle class are akin to sending millions to fight a war that no one wanted. The right has always played hard ball and blood and death is just fine with them as long as it is not their blood or death. The oil wars are fought by the young poor who could not get a job and went to the military to survive. Only the young can remedy this mad imbalance and they must learn that their opponents care not one fat damn for the lives or fortunes of political enemies. Jamie Diamond belongs in the joint with Madoff and until the young make the battle personal the masters of greed will continue to run rampant. I fully expect an attempt to steal the election and the ginning up of a war with Iran could be the context for special wartime emergency measures to put a republican back in power. We face an internal radical elite that will stop at nothing to keep power. A war with Iran could get the draft reinstated and the right could send the young to death in the sand. Without a war the F35 will never be built and you and I know how badly we need an F35. Ask the defense contractors and they will tell you. Bill
                        >
                        And while I am on a rant I must report that the MIC fully expects to build the F35. The Wall Street Journal is discussing the stock merits of Raytheon Vs, Lockheed. The Journal prefers raytheon as the F35 will be built with replaceable components that will allow it to be reconfigured several times. Lockheed will get one big bite for the airframe but the component makers will get contract after contract for upgrades. So buy Raytheon and the right will find someone to bomb and strafe. We all have our jobs in a world at constant war. So go out and shoot some doves and plant some lillies to decorate some hero graves. Bill
                      • irvhal
                        Let s keep our perspective Bill. If anyone s ginning us up for a war with a mythically-inflated Iran it s a certain sophisticate lobby often funded from
                        Message 11 of 26 , Oct 15, 2011
                        View Source
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Let's keep our perspective Bill. If anyone's "ginning" us up for a war with a mythically-inflated Iran it's a certain sophisticate lobby often funded from affluent Beverly Hills and the Hamptons (neither of which are being picketed by what Nietzsche might call the levelers) and which often manipulates the Holy Rollers. You're old enough to remember the seventies when it was the oil companies that pled for a restrained, even-handed policy in the Middle East -- a plea that begat (besides Senator Fullbright and Senator Percy's removal) a rash of oil company credit cards being cut up and returned from certain quarters. And before we indulge in a partisan Democrat revisionism, remember it was President Eisenhower that disengaged from Korea, asserted the national interest over the narrow during the Suez Crisis, and forewarned of the military-industrial complex. And who, aside from Senators Ron and Rand Paul, dare to take on that same lobby and complex today?

                          Irvin

                          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Mary, that article pretty well outlines the leftist position. I recall Kent State and the great amount of time and treasure later required to extract us from Viet nam. Destroying the banking system and pillaging the middle class are akin to sending millions to fight a war that no one wanted. The right has always played hard ball and blood and death is just fine with them as long as it is not their blood or death. The oil wars are fought by the young poor who could not get a job and went to the military to survive. Only the young can remedy this mad imbalance and they must learn that their opponents care not one fat damn for the lives or fortunes of political enemies. Jamie Diamond belongs in the joint with Madoff and until the young make the battle personal the masters of greed will continue to run rampant. I fully expect an attempt to steal the election and the ginning up of a war with Iran could be the context for special wartime emergency measures to put a republican back in power. We face an internal radical elite that will stop at nothing to keep power. A war with Iran could get the draft reinstated and the right could send the young to death in the sand. Without a war the F35 will never be built and you and I know how badly we need an F35. Ask the defense contractors and they will tell you. Bill
                          >
                        • eupraxis@aol.com
                          Are you alluding to Jews? Why not say what you mean? Wil ... From: irvhal To: existlist Sent: Sat, Oct 15, 2011
                          Message 12 of 26 , Oct 15, 2011
                          View Source
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Are you alluding to Jews? Why not say what you mean?

                            Wil





                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: irvhal <i99hj@...>
                            To: existlist <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Sat, Oct 15, 2011 1:20 pm
                            Subject: [existlist] Re: Winding down





                            Let's keep our perspective Bill. If anyone's "ginning" us up for a war with a mythically-inflated Iran it's a certain sophisticate lobby often funded from affluent Beverly Hills and the Hamptons (neither of which are being picketed by what Nietzsche might call the levelers) and which often manipulates the Holy Rollers. You're old enough to remember the seventies when it was the oil companies that pled for a restrained, even-handed policy in the Middle East -- a plea that begat (besides Senator Fullbright and Senator Percy's removal) a rash of oil company credit cards being cut up and returned from certain quarters. And before we indulge in a partisan Democrat revisionism, remember it was President Eisenhower that disengaged from Korea, asserted the national interest over the narrow during the Suez Crisis, and forewarned of the military-industrial complex. And who, aside from Senators Ron and Rand Paul, dare to take on that same lobby and complex today?

                            Irvin

                            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Mary, that article pretty well outlines the leftist position. I recall Kent State and the great amount of time and treasure later required to extract us from Viet nam. Destroying the banking system and pillaging the middle class are akin to sending millions to fight a war that no one wanted. The right has always played hard ball and blood and death is just fine with them as long as it is not their blood or death. The oil wars are fought by the young poor who could not get a job and went to the military to survive. Only the young can remedy this mad imbalance and they must learn that their opponents care not one fat damn for the lives or fortunes of political enemies. Jamie Diamond belongs in the joint with Madoff and until the young make the battle personal the masters of greed will continue to run rampant. I fully expect an attempt to steal the election and the ginning up of a war with Iran could be the context for special wartime emergency measures to put a rep ublican back in power. We face an internal radical elite that will stop at nothing to keep power. A war with Iran could get the draft reinstated and the right could send the young to death in the sand. Without a war the F35 will never be built and you and I know how badly we need an F35. Ask the defense contractors and they will tell you. Bill
                            >









                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • irvhal
                            Ah yes. Here s Wil, always testy about social constructs that suggest there s any group -- aside from Marxian economic classes -- that might coalese for
                            Message 13 of 26 , Oct 15, 2011
                            View Source
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Ah yes. Here's Wil, always testy about "social constructs" that suggest there's any group -- aside from Marxian economic classes -- that might coalese for something special. I didn't want to paint with too broad a brush, so perhaps we should've left out the Holy Rollers.

                              Irvin

                              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > Are you alluding to Jews? Why not say what you mean?
                              >
                              > Wil
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: irvhal <i99hj@...>
                              > To: existlist <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                              > Sent: Sat, Oct 15, 2011 1:20 pm
                              > Subject: [existlist] Re: Winding down
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Let's keep our perspective Bill. If anyone's "ginning" us up for a war with a mythically-inflated Iran it's a certain sophisticate lobby often funded from affluent Beverly Hills and the Hamptons (neither of which are being picketed by what Nietzsche might call the levelers) and which often manipulates the Holy Rollers. You're old enough to remember the seventies when it was the oil companies that pled for a restrained, even-handed policy in the Middle East -- a plea that begat (besides Senator Fullbright and Senator Percy's removal) a rash of oil company credit cards being cut up and returned from certain quarters. And before we indulge in a partisan Democrat revisionism, remember it was President Eisenhower that disengaged from Korea, asserted the national interest over the narrow during the Suez Crisis, and forewarned of the military-industrial complex. And who, aside from Senators Ron and Rand Paul, dare to take on that same lobby and complex today?
                              >
                              > Irvin
                              >
                              > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Mary, that article pretty well outlines the leftist position. I recall Kent State and the great amount of time and treasure later required to extract us from Viet nam. Destroying the banking system and pillaging the middle class are akin to sending millions to fight a war that no one wanted. The right has always played hard ball and blood and death is just fine with them as long as it is not their blood or death. The oil wars are fought by the young poor who could not get a job and went to the military to survive. Only the young can remedy this mad imbalance and they must learn that their opponents care not one fat damn for the lives or fortunes of political enemies. Jamie Diamond belongs in the joint with Madoff and until the young make the battle personal the masters of greed will continue to run rampant. I fully expect an attempt to steal the election and the ginning up of a war with Iran could be the context for special wartime emergency measures to put a rep ublican back in power. We face an internal radical elite that will stop at nothing to keep power. A war with Iran could get the draft reinstated and the right could send the young to death in the sand. Without a war the F35 will never be built and you and I know how badly we need an F35. Ask the defense contractors and they will tell you. Bill
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                            • William
                              Message 14 of 26 , Oct 15, 2011
                              View Source
                              • 0 Attachment
                                --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "irvhal" <i99hj@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Let's keep our perspective Bill. If anyone's "ginning" us up for a war with a mythically-inflated Iran it's a certain sophisticate lobby often funded from affluent Beverly Hills and the Hamptons (neither of which are being picketed by what Nietzsche might call the levelers) and which often manipulates the Holy Rollers. You're old enough to remember the seventies when it was the oil companies that pled for a restrained, even-handed policy in the Middle East -- a plea that begat (besides Senator Fullbright and Senator Percy's removal) a rash of oil company credit cards being cut up and returned from certain quarters. And before we indulge in a partisan Democrat revisionism, remember it was President Eisenhower that disengaged from Korea, asserted the national interest over the narrow during the Suez Crisis, and forewarned of the military-industrial complex. And who, aside from Senators Ron and Rand Paul, dare to take on that same lobby and complex today?
                                > Irval, I remember that Ron is a flight surgeon and therefore a military officer. That sheep has teeth and his anti abortion stance little but a front for his DOD ties. The Pauls are just a wing of the right who emphasise social conservatism while supporting homeland defense. Ike understood the MIC and warned it would become a monster that could eat the country. With Five Stars on his collar he could say what he wanted and that Kansas boy knew something about dismantling war machines. Ask Irvin Rommel. Bill
                                > Irvin
                                >
                                > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Mary, that article pretty well outlines the leftist position. I recall Kent State and the great amount of time and treasure later required to extract us from Viet nam. Destroying the banking system and pillaging the middle class are akin to sending millions to fight a war that no one wanted. The right has always played hard ball and blood and death is just fine with them as long as it is not their blood or death. The oil wars are fought by the young poor who could not get a job and went to the military to survive. Only the young can remedy this mad imbalance and they must learn that their opponents care not one fat damn for the lives or fortunes of political enemies. Jamie Diamond belongs in the joint with Madoff and until the young make the battle personal the masters of greed will continue to run rampant. I fully expect an attempt to steal the election and the ginning up of a war with Iran could be the context for special wartime emergency measures to put a republican back in power. We face an internal radical elite that will stop at nothing to keep power. A war with Iran could get the draft reinstated and the right could send the young to death in the sand. Without a war the F35 will never be built and you and I know how badly we need an F35. Ask the defense contractors and they will tell you. Bill
                                > >
                                >
                              • eupraxis@aol.com
                                There is certainly a Jewish Lobby, so-called, and I have written here against much of its influence. I am one of those who still openly accuses Zionism of
                                Message 15 of 26 , Oct 15, 2011
                                View Source
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  There is certainly a Jewish Lobby, so-called, and I have written here against much of its influence. I am one of those who still openly accuses Zionism of being a racist ideology. I have also openly allied myself to calls for a cutting loose of Israel and a realignment in the Middle East on more rational and progressive principles.

                                  I am personally very dubious over this whole Iranian story, and especially any attempts to allege that the latter proves that Iran is in league with Mexican drug figures, although I have been led to believe in the strong possibility that the US has had such ties. My inkling is that this whole Iranian bit is a dog and pony show of the Bush-era style. It is just one more sign that Obama is out of control of his own administration.

                                  Not that I have any sympathy for the current Iranian regime, mind you -- which should be overthrown by those poor folks who suffer under it.

                                  Wil





                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: irvhal <i99hj@...>
                                  To: existlist <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Sat, Oct 15, 2011 1:41 pm
                                  Subject: [existlist] Re: Winding down





                                  Ah yes. Here's Wil, always testy about "social constructs" that suggest there's any group -- aside from Marxian economic classes -- that might coalese for something special. I didn't want to paint with too broad a brush, so perhaps we should've left out the Holy Rollers.

                                  Irvin

                                  --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Are you alluding to Jews? Why not say what you mean?
                                  >
                                  > Wil
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                  > From: irvhal <i99hj@...>
                                  > To: existlist <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                  > Sent: Sat, Oct 15, 2011 1:20 pm
                                  > Subject: [existlist] Re: Winding down
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Let's keep our perspective Bill. If anyone's "ginning" us up for a war with a mythically-inflated Iran it's a certain sophisticate lobby often funded from affluent Beverly Hills and the Hamptons (neither of which are being picketed by what Nietzsche might call the levelers) and which often manipulates the Holy Rollers. You're old enough to remember the seventies when it was the oil companies that pled for a restrained, even-handed policy in the Middle East -- a plea that begat (besides Senator Fullbright and Senator Percy's removal) a rash of oil company credit cards being cut up and returned from certain quarters. And before we indulge in a partisan Democrat revisionism, remember it was President Eisenhower that disengaged from Korea, asserted the national interest over the narrow during the Suez Crisis, and forewarned of the military-industrial complex. And who, aside from Senators Ron and Rand Paul, dare to take on that same lobby and complex today?
                                  >
                                  > Irvin
                                  >
                                  > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Mary, that article pretty well outlines the leftist position. I recall Kent State and the great amount of time and treasure later required to extract us from Viet nam. Destroying the banking system and pillaging the middle class are akin to sending millions to fight a war that no one wanted. The right has always played hard ball and blood and death is just fine with them as long as it is not their blood or death. The oil wars are fought by the young poor who could not get a job and went to the military to survive. Only the young can remedy this mad imbalance and they must learn that their opponents care not one fat damn for the lives or fortunes of political enemies. Jamie Diamond belongs in the joint with Madoff and until the young make the battle personal the masters of greed will continue to run rampant. I fully expect an attempt to steal the election and the ginning up of a war with Iran could be the context for special wartime emergency measures to put a rep ublican back in power. We face an internal radical elite that will stop at nothing to keep power. A war with Iran could get the draft reinstated and the right could send the young to death in the sand. Without a war the F35 will never be built and you and I know how badly we need an F35. Ask the defense contractors and they will tell you. Bill
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >









                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Mary
                                  The right coalesces to influence government for their own profit. A pro-Israeli lobby is no different from pro-Saudi or pro-Christian military lobbying to
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Oct 15, 2011
                                  View Source
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    The right coalesces to influence government for their own profit. A pro-Israeli lobby is no different from pro-Saudi or pro-Christian military lobbying to retain their god's security to maintain their own prosperity. But when has the left ever organized for anything but opportunity for the least advantaged? How they go about it is subject to debate, not why. Equal access to our representatives is what's now at stake; whether we'll have any kind of representation at all.

                                    Mary

                                    --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "irvhal" <i99hj@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Let's keep our perspective Bill. If anyone's "ginning" us up for a war with a mythically-inflated Iran it's a certain sophisticate lobby often funded from affluent Beverly Hills and the Hamptons (neither of which are being picketed by what Nietzsche might call the levelers) and which often manipulates the Holy Rollers. You're old enough to remember the seventies when it was the oil companies that pled for a restrained, even-handed policy in the Middle East -- a plea that begat (besides Senator Fullbright and Senator Percy's removal) a rash of oil company credit cards being cut up and returned from certain quarters. And before we indulge in a partisan Democrat revisionism, remember it was President Eisenhower that disengaged from Korea, asserted the national interest over the narrow during the Suez Crisis, and forewarned of the military-industrial complex. And who, aside from Senators Ron and Rand Paul, dare to take on that same lobby and complex today?
                                    >
                                    > Irvin
                                    >
                                    > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Mary, that article pretty well outlines the leftist position. I recall Kent State and the great amount of time and treasure later required to extract us from Viet nam. Destroying the banking system and pillaging the middle class are akin to sending millions to fight a war that no one wanted. The right has always played hard ball and blood and death is just fine with them as long as it is not their blood or death. The oil wars are fought by the young poor who could not get a job and went to the military to survive. Only the young can remedy this mad imbalance and they must learn that their opponents care not one fat damn for the lives or fortunes of political enemies. Jamie Diamond belongs in the joint with Madoff and until the young make the battle personal the masters of greed will continue to run rampant. I fully expect an attempt to steal the election and the ginning up of a war with Iran could be the context for special wartime emergency measures to put a republican back in power. We face an internal radical elite that will stop at nothing to keep power. A war with Iran could get the draft reinstated and the right could send the young to death in the sand. Without a war the F35 will never be built and you and I know how badly we need an F35. Ask the defense contractors and they will tell you. Bill
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • William
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Oct 15, 2011
                                    View Source
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > The right coalesces to influence government for their own profit. A pro-Israeli lobby is no different from pro-Saudi or pro-Christian military lobbying to retain their god's security to maintain their own prosperity. But when has the left ever organized for anything but opportunity for the least advantaged? How they go about it is subject to debate, not why. Equal access to our representatives is what's now at stake; whether we'll have any kind of representation at all.
                                      >
                                      > Mary
                                      > Mary, the wall street protestors like the tea baggers sit on the edge of politics as revolution is always just around the corner for them. That the wall street protestors do not coalese into a integral political platform has tactical advantages. With no nominal leadership the conservatives have no one to attack. I`m sure the right will invent some Palinesque straw person to villify but the real enemy is at 1600 Pennsilvania ave. Now I think the Jews have a right to fear and loath Iran. I do not like the Persian regime and would like Israel to nuke them way back to where they belong. A medium sized city buster on Tehran would do nicely and the oil might be unharmed. That,however is not the kind of war the MIC wants/ The MIC wants the troops continually blooded and a good old infantry slug fest draws down invantories that must be replinished. Conventional wars are good for business and the right are the party of big business. The people in the streets ,from the right and left are so diverse and politically polyglot that only a national election can disentangle the hair ball.I know the right will happily use a war to change the course of a leftward reversal. Some rich Jews might prove temporary allies but I have no illusions of their loyalty to anything but their own direct causes. They manage to keep those causes quiet and private. On a happier note the universal struggle against dogma was helped by the inditement of the Bishop of KC. I consider pedophilia bullying and at the present time bullying has a real bad brand image. The destruction of the National Cathedral and a bishop in the stocks seem worthy of happy feelings. Make my day, Bill
                                      > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "irvhal" <i99hj@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Let's keep our perspective Bill. If anyone's "ginning" us up for a war with a mythically-inflated Iran it's a certain sophisticate lobby often funded from affluent Beverly Hills and the Hamptons (neither of which are being picketed by what Nietzsche might call the levelers) and which often manipulates the Holy Rollers. You're old enough to remember the seventies when it was the oil companies that pled for a restrained, even-handed policy in the Middle East -- a plea that begat (besides Senator Fullbright and Senator Percy's removal) a rash of oil company credit cards being cut up and returned from certain quarters. And before we indulge in a partisan Democrat revisionism, remember it was President Eisenhower that disengaged from Korea, asserted the national interest over the narrow during the Suez Crisis, and forewarned of the military-industrial complex. And who, aside from Senators Ron and Rand Paul, dare to take on that same lobby and complex today?
                                      > >
                                      > > Irvin
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@> wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Mary, that article pretty well outlines the leftist position. I recall Kent State and the great amount of time and treasure later required to extract us from Viet nam. Destroying the banking system and pillaging the middle class are akin to sending millions to fight a war that no one wanted. The right has always played hard ball and blood and death is just fine with them as long as it is not their blood or death. The oil wars are fought by the young poor who could not get a job and went to the military to survive. Only the young can remedy this mad imbalance and they must learn that their opponents care not one fat damn for the lives or fortunes of political enemies. Jamie Diamond belongs in the joint with Madoff and until the young make the battle personal the masters of greed will continue to run rampant. I fully expect an attempt to steal the election and the ginning up of a war with Iran could be the context for special wartime emergency measures to put a republican back in power. We face an internal radical elite that will stop at nothing to keep power. A war with Iran could get the draft reinstated and the right could send the young to death in the sand. Without a war the F35 will never be built and you and I know how badly we need an F35. Ask the defense contractors and they will tell you. Bill
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • irvhal
                                      Bill, Perhaps I m overlooking something, but it s Congressman Ron Paul and his son over in the Senate who ve stood (and often alone) against the fiscal and
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Oct 16, 2011
                                      View Source
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Bill,

                                        Perhaps I'm overlooking something, but it's Congressman Ron Paul and his son over in the Senate who've stood (and often alone) against the fiscal and civil liberty ravages of an unfettered national security state, as well as against the privileged position of international finance capital. In last week's Republican presidential debate, it was Paul who took on the Federal Reserve and the disgraceful TARP bailouts, while the latest Neocon fad candidate challenged him with a ringing endoresment of a previous Fed chairman that bailed out the hedge funds. And yes he is a medical man, intimating recently that homosexuality is less a moral than a biological phenomenon when pressed by a preacher excited about gays in the military -- hardly what you'd expect from a Step n' Fetchit for the Religious Right. As in all things political, we're necessarily in for a penny, but not for a pound, and we're getting our penny's worth with Paul.

                                        Irvin

                                        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "irvhal" <i99hj@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Let's keep our perspective Bill. If anyone's "ginning" us up for a war with a mythically-inflated Iran it's a certain sophisticate lobby often funded from affluent Beverly Hills and the Hamptons (neither of which are being picketed by what Nietzsche might call the levelers) and which often manipulates the Holy Rollers. You're old enough to remember the seventies when it was the oil companies that pled for a restrained, even-handed policy in the Middle East -- a plea that begat (besides Senator Fullbright and Senator Percy's removal) a rash of oil company credit cards being cut up and returned from certain quarters. And before we indulge in a partisan Democrat revisionism, remember it was President Eisenhower that disengaged from Korea, asserted the national interest over the narrow during the Suez Crisis, and forewarned of the military-industrial complex. And who, aside from Senators Ron and Rand Paul, dare to take on that same lobby and complex today?
                                        > > Irval, I remember that Ron is a flight surgeon and therefore a military officer. That sheep has teeth and his anti abortion stance little but a front for his DOD ties. The Pauls are just a wing of the right who emphasise social conservatism while supporting homeland defense. Ike understood the MIC and warned it would become a monster that could eat the country. With Five Stars on his collar he could say what he wanted and that Kansas boy knew something about dismantling war machines. Ask Irvin Rommel. Bill
                                        > > Irvin
                                        > >
                                      • William
                                        ... As the marches on wall street continue it would seem thet a few others know the financial system needs massive revision. The greenspan trickle down
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Oct 16, 2011
                                        View Source
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "irvhal" <i99hj@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Bill,
                                          >
                                          > Perhaps I'm overlooking something, but it's Congressman Ron Paul and his son over in the Senate who've stood (and often alone) against the fiscal and civil liberty ravages of an unfettered national security state, as well as against the privileged position of international finance capital. In last week's Republican presidential debate, it was Paul who took on the Federal Reserve and the disgraceful TARP bailouts, while the latest Neocon fad candidate challenged him with a ringing endoresment of a previous Fed chairman that bailed out the hedge funds. And yes he is a medical man, intimating recently that homosexuality is less a moral than a biological phenomenon when pressed by a preacher excited about gays in the military -- hardly what you'd expect from a Step n' Fetchit for the Religious Right. As in all things political, we're necessarily in for a penny, but not for a pound, and we're getting our penny's worth with Paul.
                                          >
                                          > Irvin
                                          > Irvin,Are we not talking about republicans? I just came from lunch with a republican judge who happens to be my brother. I know a lot of republicans and in general party politics is not talked about. Money is and I have come from dirt poor to having lunch with republicans. They are interested oin how others make it. I can talk money with republicans and in that melieu we communicate in an often animated fashon. If you were referring to Alan Greenspan I have listened to him too many times. When he set before a senate committee and said he thought it his job to obfuscate, I knew we were in trouble.I think republicans know more about money than dems. Thats why megafoggers like Greenspan survive and prosper. The republicans did not know what Greenspan either but they just dummied up and tried to look smart.
                                          As the marches on wall street continue it would seem thet a few others know the financial system needs massive revision. The greenspan trickle down neocons know that there will be change but they are dug in by their purse strings . I think Obama has to play lets make a deal. He should go back to the gold standard and then talk real numbers with the mega rich. No damn ideology, just cash on the gold standard. Let Yale worry about the MBA`s and the future of capitalism. The bankers will all need armoured cars if they fuck the system up again. " It will soon shake your windows and rattle your walls ,For the times they are a changing" Bill
                                          > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "irvhal" <i99hj@> wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Let's keep our perspective Bill. If anyone's "ginning" us up for a war with a mythically-inflated Iran it's a certain sophisticate lobby often funded from affluent Beverly Hills and the Hamptons (neither of which are being picketed by what Nietzsche might call the levelers) and which often manipulates the Holy Rollers. You're old enough to remember the seventies when it was the oil companies that pled for a restrained, even-handed policy in the Middle East -- a plea that begat (besides Senator Fullbright and Senator Percy's removal) a rash of oil company credit cards being cut up and returned from certain quarters. And before we indulge in a partisan Democrat revisionism, remember it was President Eisenhower that disengaged from Korea, asserted the national interest over the narrow during the Suez Crisis, and forewarned of the military-industrial complex. And who, aside from Senators Ron and Rand Paul, dare to take on that same lobby and complex today?
                                          > > > Irval, I remember that Ron is a flight surgeon and therefore a military officer. That sheep has teeth and his anti abortion stance little but a front for his DOD ties. The Pauls are just a wing of the right who emphasise social conservatism while supporting homeland defense. Ike understood the MIC and warned it would become a monster that could eat the country. With Five Stars on his collar he could say what he wanted and that Kansas boy knew something about dismantling war machines. Ask Irvin Rommel. Bill
                                          > > > Irvin
                                          > > >
                                          >
                                        • Mary
                                          As much as I applaud the Paul s enmity with the Koch brothers, unless they re willing to bust monopolies and end corporations equal rights with individuals in
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Oct 17, 2011
                                          View Source
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            As much as I applaud the Paul's enmity with the Koch brothers, unless they're willing to bust monopolies and end corporations' equal rights with individuals in the courts, with the same zeal they'd use to further dismantle unions and the safety net for the neediest citizens, their anger with the Fed doesn't persuade me to take them seriously. Talk of free markets means nothing without an authority to enforce such but they seem anti-regulatory. Very incoherent. If libertarians want to expand their Jeffersonian, propertied, aristocratic ideal, this too is being met by growing national and global protests of your so-called levelers. The Paul's may not be right, but they're still wrong.

                                            Mary

                                            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "irvhal" <i99hj@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Bill,
                                            >
                                            > Perhaps I'm overlooking something, but it's Congressman Ron Paul and his son over in the Senate who've stood (and often alone) against the fiscal and civil liberty ravages of an unfettered national security state, as well as against the privileged position of international finance capital. In last week's Republican presidential debate, it was Paul who took on the Federal Reserve and the disgraceful TARP bailouts, while the latest Neocon fad candidate challenged him with a ringing endoresment of a previous Fed chairman that bailed out the hedge funds. And yes he is a medical man, intimating recently that homosexuality is less a moral than a biological phenomenon when pressed by a preacher excited about gays in the military -- hardly what you'd expect from a Step n' Fetchit for the Religious Right. As in all things political, we're necessarily in for a penny, but not for a pound, and we're getting our penny's worth with Paul.
                                            >
                                            > Irvin
                                            >
                                            > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "irvhal" <i99hj@> wrote:
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Let's keep our perspective Bill. If anyone's "ginning" us up for a war with a mythically-inflated Iran it's a certain sophisticate lobby often funded from affluent Beverly Hills and the Hamptons (neither of which are being picketed by what Nietzsche might call the levelers) and which often manipulates the Holy Rollers. You're old enough to remember the seventies when it was the oil companies that pled for a restrained, even-handed policy in the Middle East -- a plea that begat (besides Senator Fullbright and Senator Percy's removal) a rash of oil company credit cards being cut up and returned from certain quarters. And before we indulge in a partisan Democrat revisionism, remember it was President Eisenhower that disengaged from Korea, asserted the national interest over the narrow during the Suez Crisis, and forewarned of the military-industrial complex. And who, aside from Senators Ron and Rand Paul, dare to take on that same lobby and complex today?
                                            > > > Irval, I remember that Ron is a flight surgeon and therefore a military officer. That sheep has teeth and his anti abortion stance little but a front for his DOD ties. The Pauls are just a wing of the right who emphasise social conservatism while supporting homeland defense. Ike understood the MIC and warned it would become a monster that could eat the country. With Five Stars on his collar he could say what he wanted and that Kansas boy knew something about dismantling war machines. Ask Irvin Rommel. Bill
                                            > > > Irvin
                                            > > >
                                            >
                                          • William
                                            ... Where are the Rockefeller republicans? The obstructionism of the far right crazies is strangling progress and the real revolt will need come from a middle
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Oct 17, 2011
                                            View Source
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > As much as I applaud the Paul's enmity with the Koch brothers, unless they're willing to bust monopolies and end corporations' equal rights with individuals in the courts, with the same zeal they'd use to further dismantle unions and the safety net for the neediest citizens, their anger with the Fed doesn't persuade me to take them seriously. Talk of free markets means nothing without an authority to enforce such but they seem anti-regulatory. Very incoherent. If libertarians want to expand their Jeffersonian, propertied, aristocratic ideal, this too is being met by growing national and global protests of your so-called levelers. The Paul's may not be right, but they're still wrong.
                                              >
                                              > Mary
                                              > Mary, Looking at the republican presidential candidates I am jolted by the strangeness, the radicalism and the anti american values I see. As all consider themselves conservatives that may be the common bond that unites them in their unacceptability. No wonder the sensible and rational republicans are dissatisfied with the choices they are given. The party goes further and further to the right and the moderate members of the party are excluded . If you dont believe in electrified fences to kill latinos crossing the border you are out.
                                              Where are the Rockefeller republicans? The obstructionism of the far right crazies is strangling progress and the real revolt will need come from a middle that rejects all the madness on the far right. The electorate needs to recalculate its political compass and reject all the single issue madness . If you are against abortion you still do not vote for a nincompoop like Bachmann. If you hate the IRS you do not vote for an eccentrick like Ron Paul. The News media, a slave to news cycle happenings give these kooks top billing as if their prattlings are the real news. So I will not be watching the rest of the republican debates just as I will not answer endless questioners from credit card companise and health insurance companies. It has become a matter of not adding to the garbage pile that has become Americam business and republican politics. If the republicans send me a candidate like Nelson Rockefeller or Henry Cabot Lodge I will consider he or she. I will not consider cultists, religous fanatics or economic opportunists. Get serious GOP or get lost. Bill
                                              > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "irvhal" <i99hj@> wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > Bill,
                                              > >
                                              > > Perhaps I'm overlooking something, but it's Congressman Ron Paul and his son over in the Senate who've stood (and often alone) against the fiscal and civil liberty ravages of an unfettered national security state, as well as against the privileged position of international finance capital. In last week's Republican presidential debate, it was Paul who took on the Federal Reserve and the disgraceful TARP bailouts, while the latest Neocon fad candidate challenged him with a ringing endoresment of a previous Fed chairman that bailed out the hedge funds. And yes he is a medical man, intimating recently that homosexuality is less a moral than a biological phenomenon when pressed by a preacher excited about gays in the military -- hardly what you'd expect from a Step n' Fetchit for the Religious Right. As in all things political, we're necessarily in for a penny, but not for a pound, and we're getting our penny's worth with Paul.
                                              > >
                                              > > Irvin
                                              > >
                                              > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@> wrote:
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "irvhal" <i99hj@> wrote:
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Let's keep our perspective Bill. If anyone's "ginning" us up for a war with a mythically-inflated Iran it's a certain sophisticate lobby often funded from affluent Beverly Hills and the Hamptons (neither of which are being picketed by what Nietzsche might call the levelers) and which often manipulates the Holy Rollers. You're old enough to remember the seventies when it was the oil companies that pled for a restrained, even-handed policy in the Middle East -- a plea that begat (besides Senator Fullbright and Senator Percy's removal) a rash of oil company credit cards being cut up and returned from certain quarters. And before we indulge in a partisan Democrat revisionism, remember it was President Eisenhower that disengaged from Korea, asserted the national interest over the narrow during the Suez Crisis, and forewarned of the military-industrial complex. And who, aside from Senators Ron and Rand Paul, dare to take on that same lobby and complex today?
                                              > > > > Irval, I remember that Ron is a flight surgeon and therefore a military officer. That sheep has teeth and his anti abortion stance little but a front for his DOD ties. The Pauls are just a wing of the right who emphasise social conservatism while supporting homeland defense. Ike understood the MIC and warned it would become a monster that could eat the country. With Five Stars on his collar he could say what he wanted and that Kansas boy knew something about dismantling war machines. Ask Irvin Rommel. Bill
                                              > > > > Irvin
                                              > > > >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                            • Mary
                                              Bill, The centrism you seem to advocate is what has actually been occurring in the form of gridlock and compromise for several decades. It s really a sort of
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Oct 19, 2011
                                              View Source
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Bill,

                                                The centrism you seem to advocate is what has actually been occurring in the form of gridlock and compromise for several decades. It's really a sort of stalemate between two philosophies. The fringes, attempting to pull us their direction, are simply reacting to the failure of centrist policies to prevent destabilizing recessions and to increase more wealth for the wealthiest. I think single issue radical postures are necessary to energize voters, but they shouldn't be allowed to run as either democrat or republican. They should have to run independently and live up to their voting and incumbency records. Far too many run for office, making promises they never intend to keep when once beholden to either party's contribution and election machinery. That capital alone undermines statesmen, says it all. A Nietzschean perspective is really beyond philosophy and political involvement; a Sartrean one is founded in philosophical principles originating in Hegel. Existentialism is aligned with the latter.

                                                Mary

                                                --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > As much as I applaud the Paul's enmity with the Koch brothers, unless they're willing to bust monopolies and end corporations' equal rights with individuals in the courts, with the same zeal they'd use to further dismantle unions and the safety net for the neediest citizens, their anger with the Fed doesn't persuade me to take them seriously. Talk of free markets means nothing without an authority to enforce such but they seem anti-regulatory. Very incoherent. If libertarians want to expand their Jeffersonian, propertied, aristocratic ideal, this too is being met by growing national and global protests of your so-called levelers. The Paul's may not be right, but they're still wrong.
                                                > >
                                                > > Mary
                                                > > Mary, Looking at the republican presidential candidates I am jolted by the strangeness, the radicalism and the anti american values I see. As all consider themselves conservatives that may be the common bond that unites them in their unacceptability. No wonder the sensible and rational republicans are dissatisfied with the choices they are given. The party goes further and further to the right and the moderate members of the party are excluded . If you dont believe in electrified fences to kill latinos crossing the border you are out.
                                                > Where are the Rockefeller republicans? The obstructionism of the far right crazies is strangling progress and the real revolt will need come from a middle that rejects all the madness on the far right. The electorate needs to recalculate its political compass and reject all the single issue madness . If you are against abortion you still do not vote for a nincompoop like Bachmann. If you hate the IRS you do not vote for an eccentrick like Ron Paul. The News media, a slave to news cycle happenings give these kooks top billing as if their prattlings are the real news. So I will not be watching the rest of the republican debates just as I will not answer endless questioners from credit card companise and health insurance companies. It has become a matter of not adding to the garbage pile that has become Americam business and republican politics. If the republicans send me a candidate like Nelson Rockefeller or Henry Cabot Lodge I will consider he or she. I will not consider cultists, religous fanatics or economic opportunists. Get serious GOP or get lost. Bill
                                                > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "irvhal" <i99hj@> wrote:
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Bill,
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Perhaps I'm overlooking something, but it's Congressman Ron Paul and his son over in the Senate who've stood (and often alone) against the fiscal and civil liberty ravages of an unfettered national security state, as well as against the privileged position of international finance capital. In last week's Republican presidential debate, it was Paul who took on the Federal Reserve and the disgraceful TARP bailouts, while the latest Neocon fad candidate challenged him with a ringing endoresment of a previous Fed chairman that bailed out the hedge funds. And yes he is a medical man, intimating recently that homosexuality is less a moral than a biological phenomenon when pressed by a preacher excited about gays in the military -- hardly what you'd expect from a Step n' Fetchit for the Religious Right. As in all things political, we're necessarily in for a penny, but not for a pound, and we're getting our penny's worth with Paul.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Irvin
                                                > > >
                                                > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@> wrote:
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "irvhal" <i99hj@> wrote:
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > Let's keep our perspective Bill. If anyone's "ginning" us up for a war with a mythically-inflated Iran it's a certain sophisticate lobby often funded from affluent Beverly Hills and the Hamptons (neither of which are being picketed by what Nietzsche might call the levelers) and which often manipulates the Holy Rollers. You're old enough to remember the seventies when it was the oil companies that pled for a restrained, even-handed policy in the Middle East -- a plea that begat (besides Senator Fullbright and Senator Percy's removal) a rash of oil company credit cards being cut up and returned from certain quarters. And before we indulge in a partisan Democrat revisionism, remember it was President Eisenhower that disengaged from Korea, asserted the national interest over the narrow during the Suez Crisis, and forewarned of the military-industrial complex. And who, aside from Senators Ron and Rand Paul, dare to take on that same lobby and complex today?
                                                > > > > > Irval, I remember that Ron is a flight surgeon and therefore a military officer. That sheep has teeth and his anti abortion stance little but a front for his DOD ties. The Pauls are just a wing of the right who emphasise social conservatism while supporting homeland defense. Ike understood the MIC and warned it would become a monster that could eat the country. With Five Stars on his collar he could say what he wanted and that Kansas boy knew something about dismantling war machines. Ask Irvin Rommel. Bill
                                                > > > > > Irvin
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > >
                                                >
                                              • William
                                                ... Now I may agree with you that we are living through a time of necessary reevaluation of the equalities of rich/poor, smart/stupid, right /left. I am a
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Oct 19, 2011
                                                View Source
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > Bill,
                                                  >
                                                  > The centrism you seem to advocate is what has actually been occurring in the form of gridlock and compromise for several decades. It's really a sort of stalemate between two philosophies. The fringes, attempting to pull us their direction, are simply reacting to the failure of centrist policies to prevent destabilizing recessions and to increase more wealth for the wealthiest. I think single issue radical postures are necessary to energize voters, but they shouldn't be allowed to run as either democrat or republican. They should have to run independently and live up to their voting and incumbency records. Far too many run for office, making promises they never intend to keep when once beholden to either party's contribution and election machinery. That capital alone undermines statesmen, says it all. A Nietzschean perspective is really beyond philosophy and political involvement; a Sartrean one is founded in philosophical principles originating in Hegel. Existentialism is aligned with the latter.
                                                  >
                                                  > Mary
                                                  > Mary, I have thought philosophy to be a broader and more encompassing subject than is politics. I do not think the hard left has a right to kidnap existentialism. That Sartre was a communist does not make existentialism a captive of communism.
                                                  Now I may agree with you that we are living through a time of necessary reevaluation of the equalities of rich/poor, smart/stupid, right /left. I am a centrist and want the left to reassert itself in the name of balance. I would like to see it accomplished peacefully, without violent revolution. I do not think such mundane aspirations encoumpass an abandonment of existentialism to a leftest caball. Fn`s politics were before the modern era but should I try to characterise his politics I would guess he was a right winger. Perhaps our lord of the texts will comment. Certainly Heidegger was far right and Camus could be seen as on the right. Branding existentialism as leftist may be tempting to the left but I think you would be better served remaining in the political rhelm rather than branding existentialism as a leftist endeavour. I would like to see Bernakee fired, I would like to see the lobbying laws strengthened, but that is the view of a centrist attempting to regain balance. It does not mean I will join the tea party or the occupy Wall Street crowd. I am happy about the COLA raise but for me that is fairness in economics,not politics. Bill
                                                  > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@> wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@> wrote:
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > As much as I applaud the Paul's enmity with the Koch brothers, unless they're willing to bust monopolies and end corporations' equal rights with individuals in the courts, with the same zeal they'd use to further dismantle unions and the safety net for the neediest citizens, their anger with the Fed doesn't persuade me to take them seriously. Talk of free markets means nothing without an authority to enforce such but they seem anti-regulatory. Very incoherent. If libertarians want to expand their Jeffersonian, propertied, aristocratic ideal, this too is being met by growing national and global protests of your so-called levelers. The Paul's may not be right, but they're still wrong.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Mary
                                                  > > > Mary, Looking at the republican presidential candidates I am jolted by the strangeness, the radicalism and the anti american values I see. As all consider themselves conservatives that may be the common bond that unites them in their unacceptability. No wonder the sensible and rational republicans are dissatisfied with the choices they are given. The party goes further and further to the right and the moderate members of the party are excluded . If you dont believe in electrified fences to kill latinos crossing the border you are out.
                                                  > > Where are the Rockefeller republicans? The obstructionism of the far right crazies is strangling progress and the real revolt will need come from a middle that rejects all the madness on the far right. The electorate needs to recalculate its political compass and reject all the single issue madness . If you are against abortion you still do not vote for a nincompoop like Bachmann. If you hate the IRS you do not vote for an eccentrick like Ron Paul. The News media, a slave to news cycle happenings give these kooks top billing as if their prattlings are the real news. So I will not be watching the rest of the republican debates just as I will not answer endless questioners from credit card companise and health insurance companies. It has become a matter of not adding to the garbage pile that has become Americam business and republican politics. If the republicans send me a candidate like Nelson Rockefeller or Henry Cabot Lodge I will consider he or she. I will not consider cultists, religous fanatics or economic opportunists. Get serious GOP or get lost. Bill
                                                  > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "irvhal" <i99hj@> wrote:
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > Bill,
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > Perhaps I'm overlooking something, but it's Congressman Ron Paul and his son over in the Senate who've stood (and often alone) against the fiscal and civil liberty ravages of an unfettered national security state, as well as against the privileged position of international finance capital. In last week's Republican presidential debate, it was Paul who took on the Federal Reserve and the disgraceful TARP bailouts, while the latest Neocon fad candidate challenged him with a ringing endoresment of a previous Fed chairman that bailed out the hedge funds. And yes he is a medical man, intimating recently that homosexuality is less a moral than a biological phenomenon when pressed by a preacher excited about gays in the military -- hardly what you'd expect from a Step n' Fetchit for the Religious Right. As in all things political, we're necessarily in for a penny, but not for a pound, and we're getting our penny's worth with Paul.
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > Irvin
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@> wrote:
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "irvhal" <i99hj@> wrote:
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > Let's keep our perspective Bill. If anyone's "ginning" us up for a war with a mythically-inflated Iran it's a certain sophisticate lobby often funded from affluent Beverly Hills and the Hamptons (neither of which are being picketed by what Nietzsche might call the levelers) and which often manipulates the Holy Rollers. You're old enough to remember the seventies when it was the oil companies that pled for a restrained, even-handed policy in the Middle East -- a plea that begat (besides Senator Fullbright and Senator Percy's removal) a rash of oil company credit cards being cut up and returned from certain quarters. And before we indulge in a partisan Democrat revisionism, remember it was President Eisenhower that disengaged from Korea, asserted the national interest over the narrow during the Suez Crisis, and forewarned of the military-industrial complex. And who, aside from Senators Ron and Rand Paul, dare to take on that same lobby and complex today?
                                                  > > > > > > Irval, I remember that Ron is a flight surgeon and therefore a military officer. That sheep has teeth and his anti abortion stance little but a front for his DOD ties. The Pauls are just a wing of the right who emphasise social conservatism while supporting homeland defense. Ike understood the MIC and warned it would become a monster that could eat the country. With Five Stars on his collar he could say what he wanted and that Kansas boy knew something about dismantling war machines. Ask Irvin Rommel. Bill
                                                  > > > > > > Irvin
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                • Mary
                                                  ... Bill, First, let me say I m ecstatic about the COLA. But inasmuch as you agree that philosophy is broader, and as such informs politics and science, its
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , Oct 20, 2011
                                                  View Source
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@> wrote:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Bill,
                                                    > >
                                                    > > The centrism you seem to advocate is what has actually been occurring in the form of gridlock and compromise for several decades. It's really a sort of stalemate between two philosophies. The fringes, attempting to pull us their direction, are simply reacting to the failure of centrist policies to prevent destabilizing recessions and to increase more wealth for the wealthiest. I think single issue radical postures are necessary to energize voters, but they shouldn't be allowed to run as either democrat or republican. They should have to run independently and live up to their voting and incumbency records. Far too many run for office, making promises they never intend to keep when once beholden to either party's contribution and election machinery. That capital alone undermines statesmen, says it all. A Nietzschean perspective is really beyond philosophy and political involvement; a Sartrean one is founded in philosophical principles originating in Hegel. Existentialism is aligned with the latter.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Mary
                                                    > > Mary, I have thought philosophy to be a broader and more encompassing subject than is politics. I do not think the hard left has a right to kidnap existentialism. That Sartre was a communist does not make existentialism a captive of communism.
                                                    > Now I may agree with you that we are living through a time of necessary reevaluation of the equalities of rich/poor, smart/stupid, right /left. I am a centrist and want the left to reassert itself in the name of balance. I would like to see it accomplished peacefully, without violent revolution. I do not think such mundane aspirations encoumpass an abandonment of existentialism to a leftest caball. Fn`s politics were before the modern era but should I try to characterise his politics I would guess he was a right winger. Perhaps our lord of the texts will comment. Certainly Heidegger was far right and Camus could be seen as on the right. Branding existentialism as leftist may be tempting to the left but I think you would be better served remaining in the political rhelm rather than branding existentialism as a leftist endeavour. I would like to see Bernakee fired, I would like to see the lobbying laws strengthened, but that is the view of a centrist attempting to regain balance. It does not mean I will join the tea party or the occupy Wall Street crowd. I am happy about the COLA raise but for me that is fairness in economics,not politics. Bill

                                                    Bill,

                                                    First, let me say I'm ecstatic about the COLA.

                                                    But inasmuch as you agree that philosophy is broader, and as such informs politics and science, its concepts must be articulated in order to do so, which is probably why they're little discussed here. I'm only trying to re-engergize this group's purpose in asking: conservatism, centrism, and leftism are based on which philosophical concepts and formal theory?

                                                    Camus was philosophically moderate, embracing a poetic Nietzsche, as well as the melancholy Kierkegaard, but he was politically left and thoroughly anti-nihilistic. His concept of the absurd reflects this amalgam. Of course he condemned Stalinism; they all did eventually. "The Rebel" is less philosophical than moral and poetic; his understanding of Hegel minimal, and as I once averred, gleaned only through Marx.

                                                    His moderate stance regarding Algeria was perhaps the only exception, but in that case, he was reluctant to give the Islamic right absolute power, because poor pied-noirs, his mother and relatives lived there during the crisis. As a former Algerian journalist, he was socialist, and his sympathies then, and always, remained with poor workers, not the middle class which benefited from systemic racism and cyclical violence. He wasn't simply opposed to revolution; he endorsed rebellion.

                                                    As for other existentialists, I humbly and gladly yield to our `lords of the texts'.

                                                    Mary

                                                    > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@> wrote:
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@> wrote:
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > As much as I applaud the Paul's enmity with the Koch brothers, unless they're willing to bust monopolies and end corporations' equal rights with individuals in the courts, with the same zeal they'd use to further dismantle unions and the safety net for the neediest citizens, their anger with the Fed doesn't persuade me to take them seriously. Talk of free markets means nothing without an authority to enforce such but they seem anti-regulatory. Very incoherent. If libertarians want to expand their Jeffersonian, propertied, aristocratic ideal, this too is being met by growing national and global protests of your so-called levelers. The Paul's may not be right, but they're still wrong.
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > Mary
                                                    > > > > Mary, Looking at the republican presidential candidates I am jolted by the strangeness, the radicalism and the anti american values I see. As all consider themselves conservatives that may be the common bond that unites them in their unacceptability. No wonder the sensible and rational republicans are dissatisfied with the choices they are given. The party goes further and further to the right and the moderate members of the party are excluded . If you dont believe in electrified fences to kill latinos crossing the border you are out.
                                                    > > > Where are the Rockefeller republicans? The obstructionism of the far right crazies is strangling progress and the real revolt will need come from a middle that rejects all the madness on the far right. The electorate needs to recalculate its political compass and reject all the single issue madness . If you are against abortion you still do not vote for a nincompoop like Bachmann. If you hate the IRS you do not vote for an eccentrick like Ron Paul. The News media, a slave to news cycle happenings give these kooks top billing as if their prattlings are the real news. So I will not be watching the rest of the republican debates just as I will not answer endless questioners from credit card companise and health insurance companies. It has become a matter of not adding to the garbage pile that has become Americam business and republican politics. If the republicans send me a candidate like Nelson Rockefeller or Henry Cabot Lodge I will consider he or she. I will not consider cultists, religous fanatics or economic opportunists. Get serious GOP or get lost. Bill
                                                    > > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "irvhal" <i99hj@> wrote:
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > Bill,
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > Perhaps I'm overlooking something, but it's Congressman Ron Paul and his son over in the Senate who've stood (and often alone) against the fiscal and civil liberty ravages of an unfettered national security state, as well as against the privileged position of international finance capital. In last week's Republican presidential debate, it was Paul who took on the Federal Reserve and the disgraceful TARP bailouts, while the latest Neocon fad candidate challenged him with a ringing endoresment of a previous Fed chairman that bailed out the hedge funds. And yes he is a medical man, intimating recently that homosexuality is less a moral than a biological phenomenon when pressed by a preacher excited about gays in the military -- hardly what you'd expect from a Step n' Fetchit for the Religious Right. As in all things political, we're necessarily in for a penny, but not for a pound, and we're getting our penny's worth with Paul.
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > Irvin
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@> wrote:
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "irvhal" <i99hj@> wrote:
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > > Let's keep our perspective Bill. If anyone's "ginning" us up for a war with a mythically-inflated Iran it's a certain sophisticate lobby often funded from affluent Beverly Hills and the Hamptons (neither of which are being picketed by what Nietzsche might call the levelers) and which often manipulates the Holy Rollers. You're old enough to remember the seventies when it was the oil companies that pled for a restrained, even-handed policy in the Middle East -- a plea that begat (besides Senator Fullbright and Senator Percy's removal) a rash of oil company credit cards being cut up and returned from certain quarters. And before we indulge in a partisan Democrat revisionism, remember it was President Eisenhower that disengaged from Korea, asserted the national interest over the narrow during the Suez Crisis, and forewarned of the military-industrial complex. And who, aside from Senators Ron and Rand Paul, dare to take on that same lobby and complex today?
                                                    > > > > > > > Irval, I remember that Ron is a flight surgeon and therefore a military officer. That sheep has teeth and his anti abortion stance little but a front for his DOD ties. The Pauls are just a wing of the right who emphasise social conservatism while supporting homeland defense. Ike understood the MIC and warned it would become a monster that could eat the country. With Five Stars on his collar he could say what he wanted and that Kansas boy knew something about dismantling war machines. Ask Irvin Rommel. Bill
                                                    > > > > > > > Irvin
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    >
                                                  • William
                                                    ... As far as science is concerned I see it as informing existential philosophy. The early existentialists were hardly better informed of their philogenetic
                                                    Message 25 of 26 , Oct 20, 2011
                                                    View Source
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@> wrote:
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@> wrote:
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > Bill,
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > The centrism you seem to advocate is what has actually been occurring in the form of gridlock and compromise for several decades. It's really a sort of stalemate between two philosophies. The fringes, attempting to pull us their direction, are simply reacting to the failure of centrist policies to prevent destabilizing recessions and to increase more wealth for the wealthiest. I think single issue radical postures are necessary to energize voters, but they shouldn't be allowed to run as either democrat or republican. They should have to run independently and live up to their voting and incumbency records. Far too many run for office, making promises they never intend to keep when once beholden to either party's contribution and election machinery. That capital alone undermines statesmen, says it all. A Nietzschean perspective is really beyond philosophy and political involvement; a Sartrean one is founded in philosophical principles originating in Hegel. Existentialism is aligned with the latter.
                                                      > > >
                                                      > > > Mary
                                                      > > > Mary, I have thought philosophy to be a broader and more encompassing subject than is politics. I do not think the hard left has a right to kidnap existentialism. That Sartre was a communist does not make existentialism a captive of communism.
                                                      > > Now I may agree with you that we are living through a time of necessary reevaluation of the equalities of rich/poor, smart/stupid, right /left. I am a centrist and want the left to reassert itself in the name of balance. I would like to see it accomplished peacefully, without violent revolution. I do not think such mundane aspirations encoumpass an abandonment of existentialism to a leftest caball. Fn`s politics were before the modern era but should I try to characterise his politics I would guess he was a right winger. Perhaps our lord of the texts will comment. Certainly Heidegger was far right and Camus could be seen as on the right. Branding existentialism as leftist may be tempting to the left but I think you would be better served remaining in the political rhelm rather than branding existentialism as a leftist endeavour. I would like to see Bernakee fired, I would like to see the lobbying laws strengthened, but that is the view of a centrist attempting to regain balance. It does not mean I will join the tea party or the occupy Wall Street crowd. I am happy about the COLA raise but for me that is fairness in economics,not politics. Bill
                                                      >
                                                      > Bill,
                                                      >
                                                      > First, let me say I'm ecstatic about the COLA.
                                                      >
                                                      > But inasmuch as you agree that philosophy is broader, and as such informs politics and science, its concepts must be articulated in order to do so, which is probably why they're little discussed here. I'm only trying to re-engergize this group's purpose in asking: conservatism, centrism, and leftism are based on which philosophical concepts and formal theory?
                                                      >
                                                      > Camus was philosophically moderate, embracing a poetic Nietzsche, as well as the melancholy Kierkegaard, but he was politically left and thoroughly anti-nihilistic. His concept of the absurd reflects this amalgam. Of course he condemned Stalinism; they all did eventually. "The Rebel" is less philosophical than moral and poetic; his understanding of Hegel minimal, and as I once averred, gleaned only through Marx.
                                                      >
                                                      > His moderate stance regarding Algeria was perhaps the only exception, but in that case, he was reluctant to give the Islamic right absolute power, because poor pied-noirs, his mother and relatives lived there during the crisis. As a former Algerian journalist, he was socialist, and his sympathies then, and always, remained with poor workers, not the middle class which benefited from systemic racism and cyclical violence. He wasn't simply opposed to revolution; he endorsed rebellion.
                                                      >
                                                      > As for other existentialists, I humbly and gladly yield to our `lords of the texts'.
                                                      >
                                                      > Mary
                                                      > Mary ,your phrase "informs politics and science" is most interesting.A philosophy of existentialism especially a general,not personal philosophy, is very hard to define. Certainly such a philosophy has little to do with making rules or offering moral bulls. I find the politics of the existentialists greatly devorced from existential philosophy. These people were all over the map politically .
                                                      As far as science is concerned I see it as informing existential philosophy. The early existentialists were hardly better informed of their philogenetic place in the cosmos than pre darwinians and any cosmology that might impact on theistic possibilities just was not available. Eienstein and his mind blowing equations and papers were barely understood at the dawn of existentialism but the big bang and atomic science definitely informed existentialism not visa versa.The general tenants of existentialism were not violated by the great discoveries of physics and biology and thus the philosophy remained solvent in world ideas. Religions and cults based in personalities took huge hits from the facts of the new science. To this day the faith based groups resist the progress of science and the leveling of genetics has shot the shit out of despotic totalitarianism. The confluence of high level genetics and fortunate life experience certainly can build a more advanced person but that individual is not a god he is just a person who has moved ahead in the competition of life.
                                                      So we see we are all much the same in our genetic make up and contemporary place in an ever expanding universe. The idea of individual responsibility in a godless universe is forwarded and again existentialism remains unscathed while more dogmatic systems fail. That modernism informs science to find out more seems secure but what modernism presernts to politics seems less clear. I think the political diversity of the named existentialists demonstrates that. So far the very general concepts of existential thoughts seem whole but adopting political stances or making existential rules are verboten,at least to me. Bill
                                                      > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@> wrote:
                                                      > > > >
                                                      > > > >
                                                      > > > >
                                                      > > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@> wrote:
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > As much as I applaud the Paul's enmity with the Koch brothers, unless they're willing to bust monopolies and end corporations' equal rights with individuals in the courts, with the same zeal they'd use to further dismantle unions and the safety net for the neediest citizens, their anger with the Fed doesn't persuade me to take them seriously. Talk of free markets means nothing without an authority to enforce such but they seem anti-regulatory. Very incoherent. If libertarians want to expand their Jeffersonian, propertied, aristocratic ideal, this too is being met by growing national and global protests of your so-called levelers. The Paul's may not be right, but they're still wrong.
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > Mary
                                                      > > > > > Mary, Looking at the republican presidential candidates I am jolted by the strangeness, the radicalism and the anti american values I see. As all consider themselves conservatives that may be the common bond that unites them in their unacceptability. No wonder the sensible and rational republicans are dissatisfied with the choices they are given. The party goes further and further to the right and the moderate members of the party are excluded . If you dont believe in electrified fences to kill latinos crossing the border you are out.
                                                      > > > > Where are the Rockefeller republicans? The obstructionism of the far right crazies is strangling progress and the real revolt will need come from a middle that rejects all the madness on the far right. The electorate needs to recalculate its political compass and reject all the single issue madness . If you are against abortion you still do not vote for a nincompoop like Bachmann. If you hate the IRS you do not vote for an eccentrick like Ron Paul. The News media, a slave to news cycle happenings give these kooks top billing as if their prattlings are the real news. So I will not be watching the rest of the republican debates just as I will not answer endless questioners from credit card companise and health insurance companies. It has become a matter of not adding to the garbage pile that has become Americam business and republican politics. If the republicans send me a candidate like Nelson Rockefeller or Henry Cabot Lodge I will consider he or she. I will not consider cultists, religous fanatics or economic opportunists. Get serious GOP or get lost. Bill
                                                      > > > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "irvhal" <i99hj@> wrote:
                                                      > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > > Bill,
                                                      > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > > Perhaps I'm overlooking something, but it's Congressman Ron Paul and his son over in the Senate who've stood (and often alone) against the fiscal and civil liberty ravages of an unfettered national security state, as well as against the privileged position of international finance capital. In last week's Republican presidential debate, it was Paul who took on the Federal Reserve and the disgraceful TARP bailouts, while the latest Neocon fad candidate challenged him with a ringing endoresment of a previous Fed chairman that bailed out the hedge funds. And yes he is a medical man, intimating recently that homosexuality is less a moral than a biological phenomenon when pressed by a preacher excited about gays in the military -- hardly what you'd expect from a Step n' Fetchit for the Religious Right. As in all things political, we're necessarily in for a penny, but not for a pound, and we're getting our penny's worth with Paul.
                                                      > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > > Irvin
                                                      > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@> wrote:
                                                      > > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "irvhal" <i99hj@> wrote:
                                                      > > > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > > > > Let's keep our perspective Bill. If anyone's "ginning" us up for a war with a mythically-inflated Iran it's a certain sophisticate lobby often funded from affluent Beverly Hills and the Hamptons (neither of which are being picketed by what Nietzsche might call the levelers) and which often manipulates the Holy Rollers. You're old enough to remember the seventies when it was the oil companies that pled for a restrained, even-handed policy in the Middle East -- a plea that begat (besides Senator Fullbright and Senator Percy's removal) a rash of oil company credit cards being cut up and returned from certain quarters. And before we indulge in a partisan Democrat revisionism, remember it was President Eisenhower that disengaged from Korea, asserted the national interest over the narrow during the Suez Crisis, and forewarned of the military-industrial complex. And who, aside from Senators Ron and Rand Paul, dare to take on that same lobby and complex today?
                                                      > > > > > > > > Irval, I remember that Ron is a flight surgeon and therefore a military officer. That sheep has teeth and his anti abortion stance little but a front for his DOD ties. The Pauls are just a wing of the right who emphasise social conservatism while supporting homeland defense. Ike understood the MIC and warned it would become a monster that could eat the country. With Five Stars on his collar he could say what he wanted and that Kansas boy knew something about dismantling war machines. Ask Irvin Rommel. Bill
                                                      > > > > > > > > Irvin
                                                      > > > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > > >
                                                      > > > > >
                                                      > > > >
                                                      > > >
                                                      > >
                                                      >
                                                    • Mary
                                                      ... Bill, I suppose I can agree that existentialism doesn t indicate any specific political stance, but existentialism concerns authenticity and to that
                                                      Message 26 of 26 , Oct 24, 2011
                                                      View Source
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@...> wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@> wrote:
                                                        > >
                                                        > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@> wrote:
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > >
                                                        > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@> wrote:
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > > Bill,
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > > The centrism you seem to advocate is what has actually been occurring in the form of gridlock and compromise for several decades. It's really a sort of stalemate between two philosophies. The fringes, attempting to pull us their direction, are simply reacting to the failure of centrist policies to prevent destabilizing recessions and to increase more wealth for the wealthiest. I think single issue radical postures are necessary to energize voters, but they shouldn't be allowed to run as either democrat or republican. They should have to run independently and live up to their voting and incumbency records. Far too many run for office, making promises they never intend to keep when once beholden to either party's contribution and election machinery. That capital alone undermines statesmen, says it all. A Nietzschean perspective is really beyond philosophy and political involvement; a Sartrean one is founded in philosophical principles originating in Hegel. Existentialism is aligned with the latter.
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > > > Mary
                                                        > > > > Mary, I have thought philosophy to be a broader and more encompassing subject than is politics. I do not think the hard left has a right to kidnap existentialism. That Sartre was a communist does not make existentialism a captive of communism.
                                                        > > > Now I may agree with you that we are living through a time of necessary reevaluation of the equalities of rich/poor, smart/stupid, right /left. I am a centrist and want the left to reassert itself in the name of balance. I would like to see it accomplished peacefully, without violent revolution. I do not think such mundane aspirations encoumpass an abandonment of existentialism to a leftest caball. Fn`s politics were before the modern era but should I try to characterise his politics I would guess he was a right winger. Perhaps our lord of the texts will comment. Certainly Heidegger was far right and Camus could be seen as on the right. Branding existentialism as leftist may be tempting to the left but I think you would be better served remaining in the political rhelm rather than branding existentialism as a leftist endeavour. I would like to see Bernakee fired, I would like to see the lobbying laws strengthened, but that is the view of a centrist attempting to regain balance. It does not mean I will join the tea party or the occupy Wall Street crowd. I am happy about the COLA raise but for me that is fairness in economics,not politics. Bill
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Bill,
                                                        > >
                                                        > > First, let me say I'm ecstatic about the COLA.
                                                        > >
                                                        > > But inasmuch as you agree that philosophy is broader, and as such informs politics and science, its concepts must be articulated in order to do so, which is probably why they're little discussed here. I'm only trying to re-engergize this group's purpose in asking: conservatism, centrism, and leftism are based on which philosophical concepts and formal theory?
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Camus was philosophically moderate, embracing a poetic Nietzsche, as well as the melancholy Kierkegaard, but he was politically left and thoroughly anti-nihilistic. His concept of the absurd reflects this amalgam. Of course he condemned Stalinism; they all did eventually. "The Rebel" is less philosophical than moral and poetic; his understanding of Hegel minimal, and as I once averred, gleaned only through Marx.
                                                        > >
                                                        > > His moderate stance regarding Algeria was perhaps the only exception, but in that case, he was reluctant to give the Islamic right absolute power, because poor pied-noirs, his mother and relatives lived there during the crisis. As a former Algerian journalist, he was socialist, and his sympathies then, and always, remained with poor workers, not the middle class which benefited from systemic racism and cyclical violence. He wasn't simply opposed to revolution; he endorsed rebellion.
                                                        > >
                                                        > > As for other existentialists, I humbly and gladly yield to our `lords of the texts'.
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Mary
                                                        > > Mary ,your phrase "informs politics and science" is most interesting.A philosophy of existentialism especially a general,not personal philosophy, is very hard to define. Certainly such a philosophy has little to do with making rules or offering moral bulls. I find the politics of the existentialists greatly devorced from existential philosophy. These people were all over the map politically .
                                                        > As far as science is concerned I see it as informing existential philosophy. The early existentialists were hardly better informed of their philogenetic place in the cosmos than pre darwinians and any cosmology that might impact on theistic possibilities just was not available. Eienstein and his mind blowing equations and papers were barely understood at the dawn of existentialism but the big bang and atomic science definitely informed existentialism not visa versa.The general tenants of existentialism were not violated by the great discoveries of physics and biology and thus the philosophy remained solvent in world ideas. Religions and cults based in personalities took huge hits from the facts of the new science. To this day the faith based groups resist the progress of science and the leveling of genetics has shot the shit out of despotic totalitarianism. The confluence of high level genetics and fortunate life experience certainly can build a more advanced person but that individual is not a god he is just a person who has moved ahead in the competition of life.
                                                        > So we see we are all much the same in our genetic make up and contemporary place in an ever expanding universe. The idea of individual responsibility in a godless universe is forwarded and again existentialism remains unscathed while more dogmatic systems fail. That modernism informs science to find out more seems secure but what modernism presernts to politics seems less clear. I think the political diversity of the named existentialists demonstrates that. So far the very general concepts of existential thoughts seem whole but adopting political stances or making existential rules are verboten,at least to me. Bill

                                                        Bill,

                                                        I suppose I can agree that existentialism doesn't indicate any specific political stance, but existentialism concerns authenticity and to that extent, one's involvement should reflect one's integrity and values. This requires some personal introspection rather than sucking up the media's pablum as the masses do.

                                                        As for individual responsibility, I think we disagree about this expression. I suspect anyway, that you mean being responsible for one's self, whereas I think it's more about responsibility and less about individual, being responsible to our families and communities. This seems more in line with at least Sartre's idea that our choices obviously affect others.

                                                        I'm not sure, however, that science informs either of these except that authentic people add less confusion to the mix, and others are then free to make their own decisions based on our own. Responsibility itself is a moral and ethical value, whether individually or socially construed, as work ethic or "he who doesn't work, doesn't eat", etc. What science offers existentialism is as vague as political considerations.

                                                        Mary


                                                        > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@> wrote:
                                                        > > > > >
                                                        > > > > >
                                                        > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@> wrote:
                                                        > > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > > As much as I applaud the Paul's enmity with the Koch brothers, unless they're willing to bust monopolies and end corporations' equal rights with individuals in the courts, with the same zeal they'd use to further dismantle unions and the safety net for the neediest citizens, their anger with the Fed doesn't persuade me to take them seriously. Talk of free markets means nothing without an authority to enforce such but they seem anti-regulatory. Very incoherent. If libertarians want to expand their Jeffersonian, propertied, aristocratic ideal, this too is being met by growing national and global protests of your so-called levelers. The Paul's may not be right, but they're still wrong.
                                                        > > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > > Mary
                                                        > > > > > > Mary, Looking at the republican presidential candidates I am jolted by the strangeness, the radicalism and the anti american values I see. As all consider themselves conservatives that may be the common bond that unites them in their unacceptability. No wonder the sensible and rational republicans are dissatisfied with the choices they are given. The party goes further and further to the right and the moderate members of the party are excluded . If you dont believe in electrified fences to kill latinos crossing the border you are out.
                                                        > > > > > Where are the Rockefeller republicans? The obstructionism of the far right crazies is strangling progress and the real revolt will need come from a middle that rejects all the madness on the far right. The electorate needs to recalculate its political compass and reject all the single issue madness . If you are against abortion you still do not vote for a nincompoop like Bachmann. If you hate the IRS you do not vote for an eccentrick like Ron Paul. The News media, a slave to news cycle happenings give these kooks top billing as if their prattlings are the real news. So I will not be watching the rest of the republican debates just as I will not answer endless questioners from credit card companise and health insurance companies. It has become a matter of not adding to the garbage pile that has become Americam business and republican politics. If the republicans send me a candidate like Nelson Rockefeller or Henry Cabot Lodge I will consider he or she. I will not consider cultists, religous fanatics or economic opportunists. Get serious GOP or get lost. Bill
                                                        > > > > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "irvhal" <i99hj@> wrote:
                                                        > > > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > > > Bill,
                                                        > > > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > > > Perhaps I'm overlooking something, but it's Congressman Ron Paul and his son over in the Senate who've stood (and often alone) against the fiscal and civil liberty ravages of an unfettered national security state, as well as against the privileged position of international finance capital. In last week's Republican presidential debate, it was Paul who took on the Federal Reserve and the disgraceful TARP bailouts, while the latest Neocon fad candidate challenged him with a ringing endoresment of a previous Fed chairman that bailed out the hedge funds. And yes he is a medical man, intimating recently that homosexuality is less a moral than a biological phenomenon when pressed by a preacher excited about gays in the military -- hardly what you'd expect from a Step n' Fetchit for the Religious Right. As in all things political, we're necessarily in for a penny, but not for a pound, and we're getting our penny's worth with Paul.
                                                        > > > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > > > Irvin
                                                        > > > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@> wrote:
                                                        > > > > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "irvhal" <i99hj@> wrote:
                                                        > > > > > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > > > > > Let's keep our perspective Bill. If anyone's "ginning" us up for a war with a mythically-inflated Iran it's a certain sophisticate lobby often funded from affluent Beverly Hills and the Hamptons (neither of which are being picketed by what Nietzsche might call the levelers) and which often manipulates the Holy Rollers. You're old enough to remember the seventies when it was the oil companies that pled for a restrained, even-handed policy in the Middle East -- a plea that begat (besides Senator Fullbright and Senator Percy's removal) a rash of oil company credit cards being cut up and returned from certain quarters. And before we indulge in a partisan Democrat revisionism, remember it was President Eisenhower that disengaged from Korea, asserted the national interest over the narrow during the Suez Crisis, and forewarned of the military-industrial complex. And who, aside from Senators Ron and Rand Paul, dare to take on that same lobby and complex today?
                                                        > > > > > > > > > Irval, I remember that Ron is a flight surgeon and therefore a military officer. That sheep has teeth and his anti abortion stance little but a front for his DOD ties. The Pauls are just a wing of the right who emphasise social conservatism while supporting homeland defense. Ike understood the MIC and warned it would become a monster that could eat the country. With Five Stars on his collar he could say what he wanted and that Kansas boy knew something about dismantling war machines. Ask Irvin Rommel. Bill
                                                        > > > > > > > > > Irvin
                                                        > > > > > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > > >
                                                        > > > > > >
                                                        > > > > >
                                                        > > > >
                                                        > > >
                                                        > >
                                                        >
                                                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.