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Re: [existlist] Re: actual difference

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  • eupraxis@aol.com
    Sorry, Herman. I was suppose to answer what Hegel means by idea (other Hegelians can be heard laughing in the background). It s late, and I am not fully up
    Message 1 of 12 , Aug 1, 2011
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      Sorry, Herman. I was suppose to answer what Hegel means by "idea" (other Hegelians can be heard laughing in the background). It's late, and I am not fully up to the task (a few beers), but here goes, at least for now. On the one hand, he uses the word in its basic everyday senses, not so much as Locke would have it, but very much in the same way that one's girlfriend/wife retorts after one, after being chastised, washes the dishes and expects applause, "You just have no idea!" The word thus means not only the specific 'now' of things, but that wherein such matters make their real sense. It is what is there but missed, like a democracy with slaves, but which makes the inessential that subsists alongside it something soon to be canceled out as false and of a 'piece' with non-existence.

      Wallace uses the term "notion" to describe 'das Idee' when it is that which inheres in something, not as it actually is, but insofar as its truth is gleanable in essence. The Notion is the Idea in its implicit and futural potentiality which nevertheless is also actual as the way life expresses it now.

      Wil




      -----Original Message-----
      From: Herman <hhofmeister@...>
      To: existlist <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Mon, Aug 1, 2011 8:50 pm
      Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: actual difference


      Hi Mary,



      On 2 August 2011 11:38, Mary <josephson45r@...> wrote:



      > **

      >

      >

      > Herman,

      >

      > I see on the horizon Hegel's answers to your questions, but with his

      > philosophy one must study in order to understand his method and system, the

      > same as with any science. This will undoubtedly take what remains of my

      > years.

      >

      >

      I guess that is your existential choice, to spend your years studying Hegel

      in order to understand Hegel.





      Cheers





      Herman









      > Mary

      >

      >

      > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Herman <hhofmeister@...> wrote:

      > >

      > > Hi Mary,

      >

      > >

      > > On 1 August 2011 05:49, Mary <josephson45r@...> wrote:

      > >

      > > > **

      > > >

      > > >

      > > > Herman,

      > > >

      > > >

      > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Herman <hhofmeister@> wrote:

      > > >

      > > > > Your disdain for any understanding of causality is disdain for any

      > > > > understanding.

      > > >

      > > > Cause is only one aspect of understanding. Assuming your use of 'cause'

      > > > involves the empirical, I quote Hegel regarding the insufficiency of

      > using

      > > > `other' sciences alone for understanding.

      > > >

      > > > "The relation of speculative science to the other sciences may be

      > stated in

      > > > the following terms. It does not in the least neglect the empirical

      > facts

      > > > contained in the several sciences, but recognises and adopts them: it

      > > > appreciates and applies towards its own structure the universal element

      > in

      > > > these sciences, their laws and classifications; but besides all this,

      > into

      > > > the categories of science it introduces, and gives currency to, other

      > > > categories. The difference looked at in this way is only a change of

      > > > categories. Speculative Logic contains all previous Logic and

      > Metaphysics:

      > > > it preserves the same forms of thought, the same laws and

      > objects,�while at

      > > > the same time remodelling and expanding them with wider categories."

      > > >

      > > > While a mind is typically concerned with its several forms of content,

      > > > philosophy examines thought itself. Since dialectical reason involves

      > > > relationships between part and whole, cause is a necessary dynamic.

      > Probably

      > > > too premature to venture saying this, but philosophy seems the science

      > of

      > > > the Cause of cause. It is Mind capable of examining mind.

      > > >

      > > > Though the causes of Breivik's actions are legion, they comprise no

      > > > philosophy, and contain nothing resembling an idea. Breivik's own

      > difference

      > > > from others, however, is tragically interesting�how it thrusts

      > intolerance

      > > > into the spotlight. Do such actions suffocate the idea of difference or

      > > > promote development of the idea? His mind seems far beyond the damage

      > of

      > > > faulty DNA or drugs; he seems to suffer severely from a common

      > malady�the

      > > > inability to think about thought.

      > > >

      > > >

      > > After reading the above, I'm more certain than before I have no

      > conception

      > > of what you mean by "idea".

      > >

      > >

      > >

      > > > I'm perplexed that critics of philosophy participate here, though

      > perhaps

      > > > shouldn't be. Ignorant of what philosophy is, I've contributed my share

      > of

      > > > non-philosophical content.

      > > >

      > >

      > > The limits you place on philosophy, and the methods you will allow, are

      > > arbitrary as far as I can tell. They are certainly stifling and

      > distorting

      > > if there needs to be a connection between philosophy and reality. You

      > seem

      > > to dismiss in one fell swoop the whole body of phenomenology.

      > >

      > >

      > >

      > > > Hopefully, in distinguishing ourselves from those who actually did/do

      > > > philosophy, we unintentionally advance it.

      > > >

      > >

      > >

      > > Equating idealism with philosophy is far from philosophical, IMO.

      > >

      > >

      > >

      > > > That philosophy is out of favor in our educational institutions seems

      > not

      > > > without motive.

      > > >

      > > > Though Nietzsche seemed to have over emphasized the particular at the

      > > > expense of the whole, I can imagine him spinning madly within his

      > worm-eaten

      > > > shroud�knowing philosophy has not only been turned against him, but

      > turned

      > > > out. Then again, he did predict it...nevermind :)

      > > >

      > > > Mary

      > > >

      > > > P.S. I might be completely amiss with my understanding that Difference

      > is

      > > > an Idea.

      > > >

      > > >

      > >

      > > Difference is phenomenal, it might be the basis for thought, but it is

      > not

      > > thought. On the other hand, it is the Idea as thing that is thought, but

      > is

      > > not phenomenal. Starting of with thought is a wild goose chase, IMO.

      > > Examining a self-referencing system from within is of necessity an abyss

      > of

      > > infinite regress.

      > >

      > > One comes to understand far more about thought by not thinking. But I

      > know

      > > of nothing that suggests that Hegel would have have understood that, or

      > been

      > > able to do it..

      > >

      > >

      > > Cheers

      > >

      > > Herman

      > >

      > > >

      > > >

      > >

      > >

      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      > >

      >

      >

      >





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







      ------------------------------------



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    • Herman
      Thank you, Wil. I get the Idea of Hegelians mocking my questions :-) Cheers Herman ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Message 2 of 12 , Aug 1, 2011
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        Thank you, Wil.

        I get the Idea of Hegelians mocking my questions :-)

        Cheers

        Herman

        On 2 August 2011 12:06, <eupraxis@...> wrote:

        > **
        >
        >
        >
        > Sorry, Herman. I was suppose to answer what Hegel means by "idea" (other
        > Hegelians can be heard laughing in the background). It's late, and I am not
        > fully up to the task (a few beers), but here goes, at least for now. On the
        > one hand, he uses the word in its basic everyday senses, not so much as
        > Locke would have it, but very much in the same way that one's
        > girlfriend/wife retorts after one, after being chastised, washes the dishes
        > and expects applause, "You just have no idea!" The word thus means not only
        > the specific 'now' of things, but that wherein such matters make their real
        > sense. It is what is there but missed, like a democracy with slaves, but
        > which makes the inessential that subsists alongside it something soon to be
        > canceled out as false and of a 'piece' with non-existence.
        >
        > Wallace uses the term "notion" to describe 'das Idee' when it is that which
        > inheres in something, not as it actually is, but insofar as its truth is
        > gleanable in essence. The Notion is the Idea in its implicit and futural
        > potentiality which nevertheless is also actual as the way life expresses it
        > now.
        >
        > Wil
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Herman <hhofmeister@...>
        > To: existlist <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Mon, Aug 1, 2011 8:50 pm
        > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: actual difference
        >
        > Hi Mary,
        >
        > On 2 August 2011 11:38, Mary <josephson45r@...> wrote:
        >
        > > **
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > Herman,
        >
        > >
        >
        > > I see on the horizon Hegel's answers to your questions, but with his
        >
        > > philosophy one must study in order to understand his method and system,
        > the
        >
        > > same as with any science. This will undoubtedly take what remains of my
        >
        > > years.
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > I guess that is your existential choice, to spend your years studying Hegel
        >
        > in order to understand Hegel.
        >
        > Cheers
        >
        > Herman
        >
        > > Mary
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Herman <hhofmeister@...> wrote:
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > Hi Mary,
        >
        > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > On 1 August 2011 05:49, Mary <josephson45r@...> wrote:
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > > **
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > > > > Herman,
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Herman <hhofmeister@> wrote:
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > > > > > Your disdain for any understanding of causality is disdain for any
        >
        > > > > > understanding.
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > > > > Cause is only one aspect of understanding. Assuming your use of
        > 'cause'
        >
        > > > > involves the empirical, I quote Hegel regarding the insufficiency of
        >
        > > using
        >
        > > > > `other' sciences alone for understanding.
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > > > > "The relation of speculative science to the other sciences may be
        >
        > > stated in
        >
        > > > > the following terms. It does not in the least neglect the empirical
        >
        > > facts
        >
        > > > > contained in the several sciences, but recognises and adopts them: it
        >
        > > > > appreciates and applies towards its own structure the universal
        > element
        >
        > > in
        >
        > > > > these sciences, their laws and classifications; but besides all this,
        >
        > > into
        >
        > > > > the categories of science it introduces, and gives currency to, other
        >
        > > > > categories. The difference looked at in this way is only a change of
        >
        > > > > categories. Speculative Logic contains all previous Logic and
        >
        > > Metaphysics:
        >
        > > > > it preserves the same forms of thought, the same laws and
        >
        > > objects,�while at
        >
        > > > > the same time remodelling and expanding them with wider categories."
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > > > > While a mind is typically concerned with its several forms of
        > content,
        >
        > > > > philosophy examines thought itself. Since dialectical reason involves
        >
        > > > > relationships between part and whole, cause is a necessary dynamic.
        >
        > > Probably
        >
        > > > > too premature to venture saying this, but philosophy seems the
        > science
        >
        > > of
        >
        > > > > the Cause of cause. It is Mind capable of examining mind.
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > > > > Though the causes of Breivik's actions are legion, they comprise no
        >
        > > > > philosophy, and contain nothing resembling an idea. Breivik's own
        >
        > > difference
        >
        > > > > from others, however, is tragically interesting�how it thrusts
        >
        > > intolerance
        >
        > > > > into the spotlight. Do such actions suffocate the idea of difference
        > or
        >
        > > > > promote development of the idea? His mind seems far beyond the damage
        >
        > > of
        >
        > > > > faulty DNA or drugs; he seems to suffer severely from a common
        >
        > > malady�the
        >
        > > > > inability to think about thought.
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > > > After reading the above, I'm more certain than before I have no
        >
        > > conception
        >
        > > > of what you mean by "idea".
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > > I'm perplexed that critics of philosophy participate here, though
        >
        > > perhaps
        >
        > > > > shouldn't be. Ignorant of what philosophy is, I've contributed my
        > share
        >
        > > of
        >
        > > > > non-philosophical content.
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > The limits you place on philosophy, and the methods you will allow, are
        >
        > > > arbitrary as far as I can tell. They are certainly stifling and
        >
        > > distorting
        >
        > > > if there needs to be a connection between philosophy and reality. You
        >
        > > seem
        >
        > > > to dismiss in one fell swoop the whole body of phenomenology.
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > > Hopefully, in distinguishing ourselves from those who actually did/do
        >
        > > > > philosophy, we unintentionally advance it.
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > Equating idealism with philosophy is far from philosophical, IMO.
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > > That philosophy is out of favor in our educational institutions seems
        >
        > > not
        >
        > > > > without motive.
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > > > > Though Nietzsche seemed to have over emphasized the particular at the
        >
        > > > > expense of the whole, I can imagine him spinning madly within his
        >
        > > worm-eaten
        >
        > > > > shroud�knowing philosophy has not only been turned against him, but
        >
        > > turned
        >
        > > > > out. Then again, he did predict it...nevermind :)
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > > > > Mary
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > > > > P.S. I might be completely amiss with my understanding that
        > Difference
        >
        > > is
        >
        > > > > an Idea.
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > Difference is phenomenal, it might be the basis for thought, but it is
        >
        > > not
        >
        > > > thought. On the other hand, it is the Idea as thing that is thought,
        > but
        >
        > > is
        >
        > > > not phenomenal. Starting of with thought is a wild goose chase, IMO.
        >
        > > > Examining a self-referencing system from within is of necessity an
        > abyss
        >
        > > of
        >
        > > > infinite regress.
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > One comes to understand far more about thought by not thinking. But I
        >
        > > know
        >
        > > > of nothing that suggests that Hegel would have have understood that, or
        >
        > > been
        >
        > > > able to do it..
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > Cheers
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > Herman
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > > > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > >
        >
        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        > > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        >
        > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining nothing!
        >
        > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
        >
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist/
        >
        > Individual Email | Traditional
        >
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist/join
        >
        > (Yahoo! ID required)
        >
        > existlist-digest@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > existlist-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
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        >
        > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Mary
        Herman, It s not so much they d laugh at your question but at your expecting a simple answer. Wil s response was easy to digest, because he s studied the
        Message 3 of 12 , Aug 2, 2011
        • 0 Attachment
          Herman,

          It's not so much they'd laugh at your question but at your expecting a simple answer. Wil's response was easy to digest, because he's studied the system, something of which I only grasp the gist, drift, or hazy outline. He pre-digests for nestlings like me.

          BTW, after the scant early morning hours I devote to Hegel, far more remain for living.

          Mary

          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Herman <hhofmeister@...> wrote:
          >
          > Thank you, Wil.
          >
          > I get the Idea of Hegelians mocking my questions :-)
          >
          > Cheers
          >
          > Herman
          >
          > On 2 August 2011 12:06, <eupraxis@...> wrote:
          >
          > > **
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Sorry, Herman. I was suppose to answer what Hegel means by "idea" (other
          > > Hegelians can be heard laughing in the background). It's late, and I am not
          > > fully up to the task (a few beers), but here goes, at least for now. On the
          > > one hand, he uses the word in its basic everyday senses, not so much as
          > > Locke would have it, but very much in the same way that one's
          > > girlfriend/wife retorts after one, after being chastised, washes the dishes
          > > and expects applause, "You just have no idea!" The word thus means not only
          > > the specific 'now' of things, but that wherein such matters make their real
          > > sense. It is what is there but missed, like a democracy with slaves, but
          > > which makes the inessential that subsists alongside it something soon to be
          > > canceled out as false and of a 'piece' with non-existence.
          > >
          > > Wallace uses the term "notion" to describe 'das Idee' when it is that which
          > > inheres in something, not as it actually is, but insofar as its truth is
          > > gleanable in essence. The Notion is the Idea in its implicit and futural
          > > potentiality which nevertheless is also actual as the way life expresses it
          > > now.
          > >
          > > Wil
          > >
          > > -----Original Message-----
          > > From: Herman <hhofmeister@...>
          > > To: existlist <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
          > > Sent: Mon, Aug 1, 2011 8:50 pm
          > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: actual difference
          > >
          > > Hi Mary,
          > >
          > > On 2 August 2011 11:38, Mary <josephson45r@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > > **
          > >
          > > >
          > >
          > > >
          > >
          > > > Herman,
          > >
          > > >
          > >
          > > > I see on the horizon Hegel's answers to your questions, but with his
          > >
          > > > philosophy one must study in order to understand his method and system,
          > > the
          > >
          > > > same as with any science. This will undoubtedly take what remains of my
          > >
          > > > years.
          > >
          > > >
          > >
          > > >
          > >
          > > I guess that is your existential choice, to spend your years studying Hegel
          > >
          > > in order to understand Hegel.
          > >
          > > Cheers
          > >
          > > Herman
          > >
          > > > Mary
          > >
          > > >
          > >
          > > >
          > >
          > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Herman <hhofmeister@> wrote:
          > >
          > > > >
          > >
          > > > > Hi Mary,
          > >
          > > >
          > >
          > > > >
          > >
          > > > > On 1 August 2011 05:49, Mary <josephson45r@> wrote:
          > >
          > > > >
          > >
          > > > > > **
          > >
          > > > > >
          > >
          > > > > >
          > >
          > > > > > Herman,
          > >
          > > > > >
          > >
          > > > > >
          > >
          > > > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Herman <hhofmeister@> wrote:
          > >
          > > > > >
          > >
          > > > > > > Your disdain for any understanding of causality is disdain for any
          > >
          > > > > > > understanding.
          > >
          > > > > >
          > >
          > > > > > Cause is only one aspect of understanding. Assuming your use of
          > > 'cause'
          > >
          > > > > > involves the empirical, I quote Hegel regarding the insufficiency of
          > >
          > > > using
          > >
          > > > > > `other' sciences alone for understanding.
          > >
          > > > > >
          > >
          > > > > > "The relation of speculative science to the other sciences may be
          > >
          > > > stated in
          > >
          > > > > > the following terms. It does not in the least neglect the empirical
          > >
          > > > facts
          > >
          > > > > > contained in the several sciences, but recognises and adopts them: it
          > >
          > > > > > appreciates and applies towards its own structure the universal
          > > element
          > >
          > > > in
          > >
          > > > > > these sciences, their laws and classifications; but besides all this,
          > >
          > > > into
          > >
          > > > > > the categories of science it introduces, and gives currency to, other
          > >
          > > > > > categories. The difference looked at in this way is only a change of
          > >
          > > > > > categories. Speculative Logic contains all previous Logic and
          > >
          > > > Metaphysics:
          > >
          > > > > > it preserves the same forms of thought, the same laws and
          > >
          > > > objects,�while at
          > >
          > > > > > the same time remodelling and expanding them with wider categories."
          > >
          > > > > >
          > >
          > > > > > While a mind is typically concerned with its several forms of
          > > content,
          > >
          > > > > > philosophy examines thought itself. Since dialectical reason involves
          > >
          > > > > > relationships between part and whole, cause is a necessary dynamic.
          > >
          > > > Probably
          > >
          > > > > > too premature to venture saying this, but philosophy seems the
          > > science
          > >
          > > > of
          > >
          > > > > > the Cause of cause. It is Mind capable of examining mind.
          > >
          > > > > >
          > >
          > > > > > Though the causes of Breivik's actions are legion, they comprise no
          > >
          > > > > > philosophy, and contain nothing resembling an idea. Breivik's own
          > >
          > > > difference
          > >
          > > > > > from others, however, is tragically interesting�how it thrusts
          > >
          > > > intolerance
          > >
          > > > > > into the spotlight. Do such actions suffocate the idea of difference
          > > or
          > >
          > > > > > promote development of the idea? His mind seems far beyond the damage
          > >
          > > > of
          > >
          > > > > > faulty DNA or drugs; he seems to suffer severely from a common
          > >
          > > > malady�the
          > >
          > > > > > inability to think about thought.
          > >
          > > > > >
          > >
          > > > > >
          > >
          > > > > After reading the above, I'm more certain than before I have no
          > >
          > > > conception
          > >
          > > > > of what you mean by "idea".
          > >
          > > > >
          > >
          > > > >
          > >
          > > > >
          > >
          > > > > > I'm perplexed that critics of philosophy participate here, though
          > >
          > > > perhaps
          > >
          > > > > > shouldn't be. Ignorant of what philosophy is, I've contributed my
          > > share
          > >
          > > > of
          > >
          > > > > > non-philosophical content.
          > >
          > > > > >
          > >
          > > > >
          > >
          > > > > The limits you place on philosophy, and the methods you will allow, are
          > >
          > > > > arbitrary as far as I can tell. They are certainly stifling and
          > >
          > > > distorting
          > >
          > > > > if there needs to be a connection between philosophy and reality. You
          > >
          > > > seem
          > >
          > > > > to dismiss in one fell swoop the whole body of phenomenology.
          > >
          > > > >
          > >
          > > > >
          > >
          > > > >
          > >
          > > > > > Hopefully, in distinguishing ourselves from those who actually did/do
          > >
          > > > > > philosophy, we unintentionally advance it.
          > >
          > > > > >
          > >
          > > > >
          > >
          > > > >
          > >
          > > > > Equating idealism with philosophy is far from philosophical, IMO.
          > >
          > > > >
          > >
          > > > >
          > >
          > > > >
          > >
          > > > > > That philosophy is out of favor in our educational institutions seems
          > >
          > > > not
          > >
          > > > > > without motive.
          > >
          > > > > >
          > >
          > > > > > Though Nietzsche seemed to have over emphasized the particular at the
          > >
          > > > > > expense of the whole, I can imagine him spinning madly within his
          > >
          > > > worm-eaten
          > >
          > > > > > shroud�knowing philosophy has not only been turned against him, but
          > >
          > > > turned
          > >
          > > > > > out. Then again, he did predict it...nevermind :)
          > >
          > > > > >
          > >
          > > > > > Mary
          > >
          > > > > >
          > >
          > > > > > P.S. I might be completely amiss with my understanding that
          > > Difference
          > >
          > > > is
          > >
          > > > > > an Idea.
          > >
          > > > > >
          > >
          > > > > >
          > >
          > > > >
          > >
          > > > > Difference is phenomenal, it might be the basis for thought, but it is
          > >
          > > > not
          > >
          > > > > thought. On the other hand, it is the Idea as thing that is thought,
          > > but
          > >
          > > > is
          > >
          > > > > not phenomenal. Starting of with thought is a wild goose chase, IMO.
          > >
          > > > > Examining a self-referencing system from within is of necessity an
          > > abyss
          > >
          > > > of
          > >
          > > > > infinite regress.
          > >
          > > > >
          > >
          > > > > One comes to understand far more about thought by not thinking. But I
          > >
          > > > know
          > >
          > > > > of nothing that suggests that Hegel would have have understood that, or
          > >
          > > > been
          > >
          > > > > able to do it..
          > >
          > > > >
          > >
          > > > >
          > >
          > > > > Cheers
          > >
          > > > >
          > >
          > > > > Herman
          > >
          > > > >
          > >
          > > > > >
          > >
          > > > > >
          > >
          > > > >
          > >
          > > > >
          > >
          > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > > > >
          > >
          > > >
          > >
          > > >
          > >
          > > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > > ------------------------------------
          > >
          > >
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