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Re: individual anarchy?

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  • William
    ... Jim, your house members seem a cut above our politicians in parliment and the executives wrung them out. A very impressive ,British show. But look at the
    Message 1 of 15 , Jul 19, 2011
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      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Herman <hhofmeister@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Mary,
      >
      > On 19 July 2011 02:32, Mary <josephson45r@...> wrote:
      >
      > > **
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Herman <hhofmeister@> wrote:
      > > I do not respect individuals who charge "the state" with responsibility.
      > >
      > > Herman,
      > >
      > > But how are power and the state not synonymous,
      > >
      >
      > The state is not something different from individuals acting and failing to
      > act. The locus of action/inaction, and therefore the locus of freedom, is
      > the individual.
      >
      > and how do you propose to break the vicious cycle
      > >
      >
      > If I were to assume responsibility for the world, I would be as insane as
      > Jesus Christ. If I can have any responsibility at all, it can only be
      > limited to how I am in the world, not for how the world is.
      >
      >
      > > of the ignorant masses electing/or not such poorly educated and corrupt
      > representatives, who then in turn continue to oppress.
      >
      > Having identified the locus of action as the individual, I need to accept
      > that I can only do what I can do. And what I can, and first must do, before
      > aspiring to influence the world, is to demonstrate to myself that I have
      > something that is worth saying. If I retain the capacity to be, within
      > myself, as miserable a schmuck as the next person, why bother to attempt to
      > turn the world into my likeness?
      >
      > > Most parents can't afford or have time themselves to provide a quality
      > education for their children. In the meanwhile, we have an unfortunate
      > number of students entering college who are practically illiterate and only
      > concerned with discerning the distinct flavor of last night's vomit.
      >
      > >
      > > Are you promoting a selfish elitist anarchy a la Nietzsche, because a level
      > > playing field is unnatural, or do you really think one can be deluded enough
      > > not to recognize how they benefit from the oppression of the toiling masses?
      > > Isn't your anarchy also what could be?
      > >
      > >
      > I accept without hesitation your statements to Bill that it takes courage to
      > be an existentialist. For me, that courage lies in always accepting, never
      > denying, that one is free, always free, and never a victim. How I am in the
      > world is not determined by the world. That is always already the case. Do
      > you believe that I need to tell humanity as much? And will anyone want to
      > hear it?
      >
      > Cheers
      >
      >
      > Herman
      >
      >
      >
      > > Mary
      > >"And never a victim". I think that statement too strong . That is the genius of Liddy, his threat assessment and ranking of his enemies. Sure it is the elk assessing hid rival in the rut but some are that combative, that self possessed and that dangerous. Look at the three executives in the murdoc hearings. Those are preditory sorts with impressive killing skills. Liddy listed those he saw as truly dangerous. Not that is FN in action and as laudable as Boswells spirited defense of his home. Now leonard was a victim but defended the situation to a win. They have the assailiant in custody and Iowa has a new hero. I am wearing a John Wayne Tee shirt and leonard should be getting his designs ready. he can call it Tee shirts for votes. You can get away with that in southern iowa, that area is severly conservative.
      Jim, your house members seem a cut above our politicians in parliment and the executives wrung them out. A very impressive ,British show. But look at the valor of Boswel, he is a difficult man to confront. Bill
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Jim
      Hi Herman, In your post to Mary you write: For me, that courage lies in always accepting, never denying, that one is free, always free, and never a victim. I
      Message 2 of 15 , Jul 20, 2011
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        Hi Herman,

        In your post to Mary you write:

        "For me, that courage lies in always accepting, never denying, that one is free, always free, and never a victim."

        I am perplexed by this remark as more than once you have denied that human beings have free will, indeed you have denied that human beings are agents in any sense of the word.

        Please can you explain what you mean by stating that "one is free, always free, and never a victim", given what you have said in the past regarding free will and human agency.

        Jim
      • Herman
        Hi Jim, ... Sure. Recently, in the thread about the Murdoch empire, I wrote: Sticking to my descriptive paradigm, I would say that the reality underlying any
        Message 3 of 15 , Jul 20, 2011
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          Hi Jim,

          On 21 July 2011 06:24, Jim <jjimstuart1@...> wrote:

          > **
          >
          >
          > Hi Herman,
          >
          >
          > In your post to Mary you write:
          >
          > "For me, that courage lies in always accepting, never denying, that one is
          > free, always free, and never a victim."
          >
          > I am perplexed by this remark as more than once you have denied that human
          > beings have free will, indeed you have denied that human beings are agents
          > in any sense of the word.
          >


          Sure. Recently, in the thread about the Murdoch empire, I wrote:

          Sticking to my descriptive paradigm, I would say that the reality
          underlying any political state of affairs is anarchy. That is necessarily
          so, if one subscribes to human freedom, which is not to be confused with
          free will. Freedom merely alludes to the fact that meanings and values are
          not inscribed in things, I am the author of them.



          >
          > Please can you explain what you mean by stating that "one is free, always
          > free, and never a victim", given what you have said in the past regarding
          > free will and human agency.
          >
          >

          So, I differentiate between freedom and free will. I acknowledge freedom and
          I reject free will. As I said above, freedom alludes to the fact that
          meanings and values are not inscribed in things. That means that any
          narrative account of myself that holds that I had to act in this or that way
          because of how the world is, is a lie to myself. Freedom means that there is
          nothing in the world that can compel me to any action, the world is not a
          sufficient explanation for how I am in it.

          Free will, on the other hand, is, as far as I can make out, a metaphysical
          and incoherent explanation for human behaviour. If you care to put forward
          your version of it, feel free.

          I hope the above clarifies.

          Cheers


          Herman




          > Jim
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Mary
          Jim, I too am confused by Herman s position. He also once declared the individual doesn t exist. He judges my observation about the lives of particular boxers
          Message 4 of 15 , Jul 20, 2011
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            Jim,

            I too am confused by Herman's position. He also once declared the individual doesn't exist. He judges my observation about the lives of particular boxers as perverse but asserted he doesn't wish to turn the world into his likeness or tell humanity how it must be.

            Mary

            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Jim" <jjimstuart1@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Herman,
            >
            > In your post to Mary you write:
            >
            > "For me, that courage lies in always accepting, never denying, that one is free, always free, and never a victim."
            >
            > I am perplexed by this remark as more than once you have denied that human beings have free will, indeed you have denied that human beings are agents in any sense of the word.
            >
            > Please can you explain what you mean by stating that "one is free, always free, and never a victim", given what you have said in the past regarding free will and human agency.
            >
            > Jim
            >
          • Herman
            Hi Mary, ... Bill asked me for my view. I gave it. If you wish to construe that as me proselytising so be it. And you misrepresent me in another way. I gave a
            Message 5 of 15 , Jul 20, 2011
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              Hi Mary,

              On 21 July 2011 14:13, Mary <josephson45r@...> wrote:

              > **
              >
              >
              > Jim,
              >
              > I too am confused by Herman's position. He also once declared the
              > individual doesn't exist. He judges my observation about the lives of
              > particular boxers as perverse but asserted he doesn't wish to turn the world
              > into his likeness or tell humanity how it must be.
              >
              >
              Bill asked me for my view. I gave it. If you wish to construe that as me
              proselytising so be it.

              And you misrepresent me in another way. I gave a clear qualification that if
              I retained the capacity to be a miserable schmuck........blah blah blah


              Cheers

              Herman



              > Mary
              >
              >
              > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Jim" <jjimstuart1@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > Hi Herman,
              > >
              > > In your post to Mary you write:
              > >
              > > "For me, that courage lies in always accepting, never denying, that one
              > is free, always free, and never a victim."
              > >
              > > I am perplexed by this remark as more than once you have denied that
              > human beings have free will, indeed you have denied that human beings are
              > agents in any sense of the word.
              > >
              > > Please can you explain what you mean by stating that "one is free, always
              > free, and never a victim", given what you have said in the past regarding
              > free will and human agency.
              > >
              > > Jim
              > >
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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