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Re: [existlist] Le Tour de France

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  • Herman
    Hi Bill, Mary and all, ... Thanks for your insightful and entertaining analyses, Bill and Mary, I’d like to expand on them a little. Skiing and bicycle
    Message 1 of 14 , Jul 9, 2011
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      Hi Bill, Mary and all,

      On 4 July 2011 06:57, William <v.valleywestdental@...> wrote:

      > **
      >
      >
      > I have great respect for the French existentalists as they looked at a
      > modern world of personal initive and risk. The German existentialists had
      > the terrible detour of National Socialism and losing the greatest war in
      > history. World trust in German existentialism has surly suffered.
      > The French choices in sport seem to mirror their philosophical tendancies.
      > Downhill skiing and bicycle racing are high risk ,individual sports . In
      > both ,errors can be fatal . In existentialism it is the individual who risks
      > all as he confronts all manner of religions,cartels and comglormates.
      > Now the Tour has teams but the winner is an individual and the French seem
      > pleased with that. The wildly legalistic nature of napolianic law exerts
      > itself in the drug and mechanical morass but the risk is still there and
      > only the very brave are rewarded.
      > So I agree with the French and see little place for timid agnostics and
      > deconstructing post modernists. When the bodies are flying amid sharp
      > sprockets , chains and cliffs, I see a metaphore for the chaotic mix of
      > existentialism. In the end you have no one to blame or reward but yourself.
      > Bill
      >


      Thanks for your insightful and entertaining analyses, Bill and Mary,



      I�d like to expand on them a little. Skiing and bicycle riding, before they
      were anything else, were and are pursuits followed for their own sake only.
      Then there is the mindset that turns such pleasurable pursuits into a
      contest between men, whose reward is ........ victory over others!? For the
      pathological, every aspect of life is a potential candidate for conversion
      into a race. TV teaches us that even cooking, singing, even dancing needs to
      be cast as a competition between rivals, not as pursuits whose meaning and
      value lies only in the acts that comprise them.



      The existential choice I see is whether to live life as though the world is
      an arena. The difficulty lies in recognising acquiescence to the �dominate
      or be dominated� paradigm. For, even the most mundane of activities, like
      buying a loaf of bread at the supermarket for $1, buys into a division of
      labour that is founded on conquest and wilful unequal exchange.



      Cheers




      Herman

      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • William
      Mary and Herman, I see sport as a reprsentation of life in general. It seems all organisms compete for food and with base organisms that usually involves
      Message 2 of 14 , Jul 10, 2011
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        Mary and Herman, I see sport as a reprsentation of life in general. It seems all organisms compete for food and with base organisms that usually involves killing then eating. I have known many people,mostly those who term themselves intellectuals, think this primative and backward. They take survival for granted and look down on competition.
        Yesterday I was having drinks with a head football coach of a Pac ten team. A soccer match was on the tube and he was amased that the score ended up 1-0 decided by a free kick. It escaped both of us why anyone would play or watch such a game. He thinks that only in the blood sports is the metaphore of life maintained. He thinks we need high risk competition to maintain ourselves as a species. Only there,besides war, do we find out what we have regarding courage and strength. He agreed with me that the educational system has devolved away from grades and curve based competativism toward a all pass ,low energy walk into oblivion.
        I like existentialism because it has little or no dogma. It allows you to compete in the world with no god insisting on rules and no priests intrepeting god`s word. The French with their individual sports of a most dangerous nature remain near the pinnacle . In team sports my coach friend sees ice hockey as the most telling sport. As with the god metaphore he thinks non interferance by officials to be critical to free competition.
        So I think existentialism permits clean competition with minimal intreference from anything but the laws of the state and the laws of science. If the state is a representative democracy then people can move freely within their framework to compete for the worlds goods and services and that promotes progress and prosperity. Bill
      • Mary
        Bill, I disagree, and although there is no dogma, there are several concepts which define existentialism. Thomas Flynn writes: There are five basic themes that
        Message 3 of 14 , Jul 10, 2011
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          Bill,

          I disagree, and although there is no dogma, there are several concepts which define existentialism. Thomas Flynn writes:

          There are five basic themes that the existentialist appropriates each in his or her own way. Rather than constituting a strict definition of `existentialist', they depict more of a family resemblance (a crisscrossing and overlapping of the themes) among these philosophers.

          1. Existence precedes essence. What you are (your essence) is the result of your choices (your existence) rather than the reverse. Essence is not destiny. You are what you make yourself to be.

          2. Time is of the essence. We are fundamentally time-bound beings. Unlike measurable, `clock' time, lived time is qualitative: the `not yet', the `already', and the `present' differ among themselves in meaning and value.

          3. Humanism. Existentialism is a person-centred philosophy. Though not anti-science, its focus is on the human individual's pursuit of identity and meaning amidst the social and economic pressures of mass society for superficiality and conformism.

          4. Freedom/responsibility. Existentialism is a philosophy of freedom. Its basis is the fact that we can stand back from our lives and reflect on what we have been doing. In this sense, we are always `more' than ourselves. But we are as responsible as we are free.

          5. Ethical considerations are paramount. Though each existentialist understands the ethical, as with `freedom', in his or her own way, the underlying concern is to invite us to examine the authenticity of our personal lives and of our society.

          I think the competitive sports metaphor merely represents one aspect of human experience, that of transferring into specific activities those parts of human nature best focused and set aside for aggression or joy of competition, if that's one's predilection.

          Mary

          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@...> wrote:
          >
          > Mary and Herman, I see sport as a reprsentation of life in general. It seems all organisms compete for food and with base organisms that usually involves killing then eating. I have known many people,mostly those who term themselves intellectuals, think this primative and backward. They take survival for granted and look down on competition.
          > Yesterday I was having drinks with a head football coach of a Pac ten team. A soccer match was on the tube and he was amased that the score ended up 1-0 decided by a free kick. It escaped both of us why anyone would play or watch such a game. He thinks that only in the blood sports is the metaphore of life maintained. He thinks we need high risk competition to maintain ourselves as a species. Only there,besides war, do we find out what we have regarding courage and strength. He agreed with me that the educational system has devolved away from grades and curve based competativism toward a all pass ,low energy walk into oblivion.
          > I like existentialism because it has little or no dogma. It allows you to compete in the world with no god insisting on rules and no priests intrepeting god`s word. The French with their individual sports of a most dangerous nature remain near the pinnacle . In team sports my coach friend sees ice hockey as the most telling sport. As with the god metaphore he thinks non interferance by officials to be critical to free competition.
          > So I think existentialism permits clean competition with minimal intreference from anything but the laws of the state and the laws of science. If the state is a representative democracy then people can move freely within their framework to compete for the worlds goods and services and that promotes progress and prosperity. Bill
          >
        • William
          ... No. two is even more tired , why not say we are mortal, we die. Carping on about the relative weighting of past,present and future are personal
          Message 4 of 14 , Jul 11, 2011
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            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@...> wrote:
            >
            > Bill,
            >
            > I disagree, and although there is no dogma, there are several concepts which define existentialism. Thomas Flynn writes:
            >
            > There are five basic themes that the existentialist appropriates each in his or her own way. Rather than constituting a strict definition of `existentialist', they depict more of a family resemblance (a crisscrossing and overlapping of the themes) among these philosophers.
            >
            > 1. Existence precedes essence. What you are (your essence) is the result of your choices (your existence) rather than the reverse. Essence is not destiny. You are what you make yourself to be.
            >
            > 2. Time is of the essence. We are fundamentally time-bound beings. Unlike measurable, `clock' time, lived time is qualitative: the `not yet', the `already', and the `present' differ among themselves in meaning and value.
            >
            > 3. Humanism. Existentialism is a person-centred philosophy. Though not anti-science, its focus is on the human individual's pursuit of identity and meaning amidst the social and economic pressures of mass society for superficiality and conformism.
            >
            > 4. Freedom/responsibility. Existentialism is a philosophy of freedom. Its basis is the fact that we can stand back from our lives and reflect on what we have been doing. In this sense, we are always `more' than ourselves. But we are as responsible as we are free.
            >
            > 5. Ethical considerations are paramount. Though each existentialist understands the ethical, as with `freedom', in his or her own way, the underlying concern is to invite us to examine the authenticity of our personal lives and of our society.
            >
            > I think the competitive sports metaphor merely represents one aspect of human experience, that of transferring into specific activities those parts of human nature best focused and set aside for aggression or joy of competition, if that's one's predilection.
            >
            > Mary
            > Mary, I do not know Flynn but his concepts seem the usual secound hand appraisals. His No. one is no more than a juxtaposition of two nebulous words. Nature/nuture comes to mind as do ethics/morals. There is little being said there and so I ignore senseless dualism of that sort.
            No. two is even more tired , why not say we are mortal, we die. Carping on about the relative weighting of past,present and future are personal conjecture of one individual. If his future includes an afterlife I radically disagree.
            No. three, I am not a humanist and think it different from existentialism. I think feminist closer to humanist . I would expect you to feel as you do. But I know a great deal about competition and care little about humanism or feminism. If you want a soft existentialism that is your choice but not mine.In yesterdays Tour an ass in an auto forced a rider into a Barbed Wire Fence. It was horrorific and displayed the guts it takes to ride at the highest levels. Soft fart commentators as those in the auto and such soft interlopers do not belong on the Tour course. I think the same about soft existentialists, theists and humanists, they should stay off the real tour. Bill
            No. four is OK but for No. five see No. one.
            > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Mary and Herman, I see sport as a reprsentation of life in general. It seems all organisms compete for food and with base organisms that usually involves killing then eating. I have known many people,mostly those who term themselves intellectuals, think this primative and backward. They take survival for granted and look down on competition.
            > > Yesterday I was having drinks with a head football coach of a Pac ten team. A soccer match was on the tube and he was amased that the score ended up 1-0 decided by a free kick. It escaped both of us why anyone would play or watch such a game. He thinks that only in the blood sports is the metaphore of life maintained. He thinks we need high risk competition to maintain ourselves as a species. Only there,besides war, do we find out what we have regarding courage and strength. He agreed with me that the educational system has devolved away from grades and curve based competativism toward a all pass ,low energy walk into oblivion.
            > > I like existentialism because it has little or no dogma. It allows you to compete in the world with no god insisting on rules and no priests intrepeting god`s word. The French with their individual sports of a most dangerous nature remain near the pinnacle . In team sports my coach friend sees ice hockey as the most telling sport. As with the god metaphore he thinks non interferance by officials to be critical to free competition.
            > > So I think existentialism permits clean competition with minimal intreference from anything but the laws of the state and the laws of science. If the state is a representative democracy then people can move freely within their framework to compete for the worlds goods and services and that promotes progress and prosperity. Bill
            > >
            >
          • William
            No. 4 regarding freedom seems plausable but I would refer you to my answer regarding No. one in regard to No. Five. Last night a young couple engaged us in
            Message 5 of 14 , Jul 11, 2011
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              No. 4 regarding freedom seems plausable but I would refer you to my answer regarding No. one in regard to No. Five.
              Last night a young couple engaged us in a conversation regarding sexual differences. The female was derogatory to her male and males in general. He asked who would shovel the snow and cut the lawn and I added who would screw her girlfriends.
              The conversation started when Priscilla told of how the old women literally attacked her father in his visit to the assisted care center. The young girls comment was "Fresh meat".
              Males and females should have different philosophical perspectives but I was not prepared for such bluntness. The notion by many women that men are necessary brutes will play out by the competative friction between the sexes. Women are beginning to lose their longevity advantage and I never expected such a change. I would suggest that as more women leave their traditional mothering role women die earlier when they have fully participated in the hard masculine sphere. It is not that women can`t do the male occupations but that the females will die at a similar rate. If this keeps repeating I would expect to see bigger females who exhibit a more male perspective . I probably will not be around to see those big,hairy,agressive women. I feel sorry for the males that have to screw their girlfriends. Bill
            • Mary
              Bill, Existentialism was and is a response to the futility of violence and war, the tired old cause of finding and eliminating their causes. Thankfully, we
              Message 6 of 14 , Jul 12, 2011
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                Bill,

                Existentialism was and is a response to the futility of violence and war, the tired old cause of finding and eliminating their causes. Thankfully, we have two different sexes and even more sensibilities.

                Mary

                --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Bill,
                > >
                > > I disagree, and although there is no dogma, there are several concepts which define existentialism. Thomas Flynn writes:
                > >
                > > There are five basic themes that the existentialist appropriates each in his or her own way. Rather than constituting a strict definition of `existentialist', they depict more of a family resemblance (a crisscrossing and overlapping of the themes) among these philosophers.
                > >
                > > 1. Existence precedes essence. What you are (your essence) is the result of your choices (your existence) rather than the reverse. Essence is not destiny. You are what you make yourself to be.
                > >
                > > 2. Time is of the essence. We are fundamentally time-bound beings. Unlike measurable, `clock' time, lived time is qualitative: the `not yet', the `already', and the `present' differ among themselves in meaning and value.
                > >
                > > 3. Humanism. Existentialism is a person-centred philosophy. Though not anti-science, its focus is on the human individual's pursuit of identity and meaning amidst the social and economic pressures of mass society for superficiality and conformism.
                > >
                > > 4. Freedom/responsibility. Existentialism is a philosophy of freedom. Its basis is the fact that we can stand back from our lives and reflect on what we have been doing. In this sense, we are always `more' than ourselves. But we are as responsible as we are free.
                > >
                > > 5. Ethical considerations are paramount. Though each existentialist understands the ethical, as with `freedom', in his or her own way, the underlying concern is to invite us to examine the authenticity of our personal lives and of our society.
                > >
                > > I think the competitive sports metaphor merely represents one aspect of human experience, that of transferring into specific activities those parts of human nature best focused and set aside for aggression or joy of competition, if that's one's predilection.
                > >
                > > Mary
                > > Mary, I do not know Flynn but his concepts seem the usual secound hand appraisals. His No. one is no more than a juxtaposition of two nebulous words. Nature/nuture comes to mind as do ethics/morals. There is little being said there and so I ignore senseless dualism of that sort.
                > No. two is even more tired , why not say we are mortal, we die. Carping on about the relative weighting of past,present and future are personal conjecture of one individual. If his future includes an afterlife I radically disagree.
                > No. three, I am not a humanist and think it different from existentialism. I think feminist closer to humanist . I would expect you to feel as you do. But I know a great deal about competition and care little about humanism or feminism. If you want a soft existentialism that is your choice but not mine.In yesterdays Tour an ass in an auto forced a rider into a Barbed Wire Fence. It was horrorific and displayed the guts it takes to ride at the highest levels. Soft fart commentators as those in the auto and such soft interlopers do not belong on the Tour course. I think the same about soft existentialists, theists and humanists, they should stay off the real tour. Bill
                > No. four is OK but for No. five see No. one.
                > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Mary and Herman, I see sport as a reprsentation of life in general. It seems all organisms compete for food and with base organisms that usually involves killing then eating. I have known many people,mostly those who term themselves intellectuals, think this primative and backward. They take survival for granted and look down on competition.
                > > > Yesterday I was having drinks with a head football coach of a Pac ten team. A soccer match was on the tube and he was amased that the score ended up 1-0 decided by a free kick. It escaped both of us why anyone would play or watch such a game. He thinks that only in the blood sports is the metaphore of life maintained. He thinks we need high risk competition to maintain ourselves as a species. Only there,besides war, do we find out what we have regarding courage and strength. He agreed with me that the educational system has devolved away from grades and curve based competativism toward a all pass ,low energy walk into oblivion.
                > > > I like existentialism because it has little or no dogma. It allows you to compete in the world with no god insisting on rules and no priests intrepeting god`s word. The French with their individual sports of a most dangerous nature remain near the pinnacle . In team sports my coach friend sees ice hockey as the most telling sport. As with the god metaphore he thinks non interferance by officials to be critical to free competition.
                > > > So I think existentialism permits clean competition with minimal intreference from anything but the laws of the state and the laws of science. If the state is a representative democracy then people can move freely within their framework to compete for the worlds goods and services and that promotes progress and prosperity. Bill
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • Herman
                Hi Bill, ... I don t buy your sexual prophecies for a number of reasons. These days, we live in cities, and the frontier male / female sexuality that your
                Message 7 of 14 , Jul 13, 2011
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                  Hi Bill,

                  On 12 July 2011 06:18, William <v.valleywestdental@...> wrote:

                  > **
                  >
                  >
                  > No. 4 regarding freedom seems plausable but I would refer you to my answer
                  > regarding No. one in regard to No. Five.
                  > Last night a young couple engaged us in a conversation regarding sexual
                  > differences. The female was derogatory to her male and males in general. He
                  > asked who would shovel the snow and cut the lawn and I added who would screw
                  > her girlfriends.
                  > The conversation started when Priscilla told of how the old women literally
                  > attacked her father in his visit to the assisted care center. The young
                  > girls comment was "Fresh meat".
                  > Males and females should have different philosophical perspectives but I
                  > was not prepared for such bluntness. The notion by many women that men are
                  > necessary brutes will play out by the competative friction between the
                  > sexes. Women are beginning to lose their longevity advantage and I never
                  > expected such a change. I would suggest that as more women leave their
                  > traditional mothering role women die earlier when they have fully
                  > participated in the hard masculine sphere. It is not that women can`t do the
                  > male occupations but that the females will die at a similar rate. If this
                  > keeps repeating I would expect to see bigger females who exhibit a more male
                  > perspective . I probably will not be around to see those big,hairy,agressive
                  > women. I feel sorry for the males that have to screw their girlfriends. Bill
                  >

                  I don't buy your sexual prophecies for a number of reasons. These days, we
                  live in cities, and the frontier male / female sexuality that your father
                  subscribed to is long dead. Even the defense forces are having to accept
                  homosexuality in the ranks. That is because, like in Greece of old, our
                  civilisation accepts en masse that in this world there is absolutely no need
                  for your hard kinda man.

                  I await the day when a pregnant lesbian soldier is shot by a metrosexual in
                  uniform.

                  Cheers

                  Herman


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • William
                  Herman, I differ and point to the title subject of this thread. We have and need those hard men. In the Tour de Crash as this year it is being called ,the
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jul 13, 2011
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                    Herman, I differ and point to the title subject of this thread. We have and need those hard men. In the Tour de Crash as this year it is being called ,the slashing wreck into barbed wire resulted in more than thirty stiches to the victim. He rode the next day. That kind of courage still exists and you know it. Calling it primitive or backward does nothing to degrade truly heroic acts. As to someone shooting a pregnant soldier, such a thing should never happen in a civilised world. I have often said I deplore war but understand the need to win wars for survival. True courage in sport identifies the bold in a peaceful way and should war break out such persons become invaluable. I once took ten stiches in a championship game after being spiked and finished the game. Our goaly took twenty deep and twenty superficial sutures and came back for the final period. A star center played with his jaw wired and carried a pliers should he need to puke. Dedication and resistance to give in to pain still exists in both sexes but I agree it is becoming more rare. For that reason I speak of it,with reverence. Bill
                  • Herman
                    Hi Bill, Yes, we do differ. What you call heroic and courageous, as exemplified in sport, I see as being totally gratuitous. You may as well be in praise of
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jul 15, 2011
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                      Hi Bill,

                      Yes, we do differ. What you call heroic and courageous, as exemplified in
                      sport, I see as being totally gratuitous. You may as well be in praise of
                      self-flagellation.

                      Cheers

                      Herman

                      On 14 July 2011 03:27, William <v.valleywestdental@...> wrote:

                      > **
                      >
                      >
                      > Herman, I differ and point to the title subject of this thread. We have and
                      > need those hard men. In the Tour de Crash as this year it is being called
                      > ,the slashing wreck into barbed wire resulted in more than thirty stiches to
                      > the victim. He rode the next day. That kind of courage still exists and you
                      > know it. Calling it primitive or backward does nothing to degrade truly
                      > heroic acts. As to someone shooting a pregnant soldier, such a thing should
                      > never happen in a civilised world. I have often said I deplore war but
                      > understand the need to win wars for survival. True courage in sport
                      > identifies the bold in a peaceful way and should war break out such persons
                      > become invaluable. I once took ten stiches in a championship game after
                      > being spiked and finished the game. Our goaly took twenty deep and twenty
                      > superficial sutures and came back for the final period. A star center played
                      > with his jaw wired and carried a pliers should he need to puke. Dedication
                      > and resistance to give in to pain still exists in both sexes but I agree it
                      > is becoming more rare. For that reason I speak of it,with reverence. Bill
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • William
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jul 15, 2011
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                        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Herman <hhofmeister@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi Bill,
                        >
                        > Yes, we do differ. What you call heroic and courageous, as exemplified in
                        > sport, I see as being totally gratuitous. You may as well be in praise of
                        > self-flagellation.
                        >
                        > Cheers
                        >
                        > Herman
                        > Herman, I consider work to be self flagellation. I am very tired of it. Bill
                        > On 14 July 2011 03:27, William <v.valleywestdental@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > > **
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Herman, I differ and point to the title subject of this thread. We have and
                        > > need those hard men. In the Tour de Crash as this year it is being called
                        > > ,the slashing wreck into barbed wire resulted in more than thirty stiches to
                        > > the victim. He rode the next day. That kind of courage still exists and you
                        > > know it. Calling it primitive or backward does nothing to degrade truly
                        > > heroic acts. As to someone shooting a pregnant soldier, such a thing should
                        > > never happen in a civilised world. I have often said I deplore war but
                        > > understand the need to win wars for survival. True courage in sport
                        > > identifies the bold in a peaceful way and should war break out such persons
                        > > become invaluable. I once took ten stiches in a championship game after
                        > > being spiked and finished the game. Our goaly took twenty deep and twenty
                        > > superficial sutures and came back for the final period. A star center played
                        > > with his jaw wired and carried a pliers should he need to puke. Dedication
                        > > and resistance to give in to pain still exists in both sexes but I agree it
                        > > is becoming more rare. For that reason I speak of it,with reverence. Bill
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • Herman
                        Hi Bill, ... I understand. You could always stop, working that is. Cheers Herman [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        Message 11 of 14 , Jul 16, 2011
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                          Hi Bill,

                          On 16 July 2011 00:53, William <v.valleywestdental@...> wrote:

                          > **
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Herman <hhofmeister@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Hi Bill,
                          > >
                          > > Yes, we do differ. What you call heroic and courageous, as exemplified in
                          > > sport, I see as being totally gratuitous. You may as well be in praise of
                          > > self-flagellation.
                          > >
                          > > Cheers
                          > >
                          > > Herman
                          > > Herman, I consider work to be self flagellation. I am very tired of it.
                          > Bill
                          >
                          >
                          I understand. You could always stop, working that is.

                          Cheers

                          Herman


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • William
                          Message 12 of 14 , Jul 17, 2011
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                            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Herman <hhofmeister@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hi Bill,
                            >
                            > On 16 July 2011 00:53, William <v.valleywestdental@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > > **
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Herman <hhofmeister@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Hi Bill,
                            > > >
                            > > > Yes, we do differ. What you call heroic and courageous, as exemplified in
                            > > > sport, I see as being totally gratuitous. You may as well be in praise of
                            > > > self-flagellation.
                            > > >
                            > > > Cheers
                            > > >
                            > > > Herman
                            > > > Herman, I consider work to be self flagellation. I am very tired of it.
                            > > Bill
                            > >
                            > >
                            > I understand. You could always stop, working that is.
                            >
                            > Cheers
                            >
                            > Herman
                            > herman, I`m working on that!Thanks,Bill
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
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