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Re: [existlist] Re: Is globalisation a good thing for third world countries?

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  • eupraxis@aol.com
    Tom, The solutions to global corporatism is a subject too huge for me just now. Suffice it to say that, as a Leftist, I would support any move against it,
    Message 1 of 7 , May 2 8:20 AM
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      Tom,

      The solutions to global corporatism is a subject too huge for me just now. Suffice it to say that, as a Leftist, I would support any move against it, including tariffs, but such would only be a temporary palliative. Moreover, this isn't an East vs. West thing. It is the US-supported outsourcing of US industry that affects us, not competition from abroad.

      Yes, I "agree" with the libertarian call for an end to foreign conflicts, the end to Israel aid, and the end of the ensuing police state, etc. But these are just issues, not reasons to affirm an ideology. I 'agree' with Hitler's vegetarianism, but that does not make me a Nazi!

      Any libertarian who sys that he can find any kind of theoretical confirmation in Paine is a liar. Paine was an incipient socialist. I recommend the Library of America edition, a single volume of all the works. A great read.

      Wil









      -----Original Message-----
      From: tom <tsmith17_midsouth1@...>
      To: existlist <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 10:00 am
      Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Is globalisation a good thing for third world countries?





      Wil,

      I am not so much defending globalization, only acknowledging it. How would u recommend countering it? Would high tarifs be the best solution? I recall a poem I read in college English. I forget the name of poem or the author, but I think it was written around the beginning of the 20th century and the poet seemed to forseee this shifting back toward the east. The poem describes the center of power and knowledge and power moving from the east to Greece, then to Rome, then the UK, and then to US,, and suggested that this center would complete the circle and again begin the circle. I recall a time when made in Japan implied shoddy. The last 35 years or so are showing that somebody in India or China can do pretty much whatever an American can do.They are educating many engineers, scientists etc. I am not defending anything. I am just perceiving change. In actuality, I am not by any means totally a libertarian. I see lots of good in their agenda, but am uncertain as to certain pr oblems which their agenda might not deal with too well. I do whole heartedly support the libertarian opposition to endless war abroad and police state at home. I understand your position in regard to the fact that over the last 30 years or so, the % of US income going to top 1% has risen from about 7% to 20%, and the position of the top.1% is even more favorably improved. Reading Jefferson and Paine a great deal of libertarian fear of growing government is expressed;but also a liberal fear of growing inequalities, and corporate power. I really don't know how this being between the devil and the deep blue sea can be reconciled. But for right now, anything moving from perpetual war abroad, and growing police state at home would sound good to me.

      I have read that Libertarians and Greens have often held joint registrations etc; and in many cases friendships develope.I read of a libertarian telling a Green "We have many of the same goals. Our difference is that you think government is the way to get there." In congress, libertarians like Ron Paul and liberals like Kucinich often cosign anti war and anti drug war bills.

      Tom

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: eupraxis@...
      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 7:47 AM
      Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Is globalisation a good thing for third world countries?

      Tom,

      You are one of the last to still toot this tune. It is amazing to me that you actually defend such a thing, just from a US point of view. The libertarian point of view, though, needs no false utilitarian fables to argue its point: from their position it is merely a might is right, free market will-to-power, and nothing more. You might as well just face up to the Ayn Rand-Friedrich Hayek-Rand Paul position.

      Wil

      -----Original Message-----
      From: tom <tsmith17_midsouth1@...>
      To: existlist <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 7:10 am
      Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Is globalisation a good thing for third world countries?

      Jim

      Though by our standards these hourly rates are low, I think they are higher than before globalization. . It also must be born in mind that in a nation with people making 65 cents an hour, 65 cents goes a lot further than it would in the US or UK. The fact that China is likely to surpass the US in gross domestic product soon is indicative of a greater increase in income there than here. As for carbon imprint,as China's gross domestic product increases, I'd guess carbon imprint would also be on the rise.

      Peace
      Tom
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Jim
      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 6:37 AM
      Subject: [existlist] Re: Is globalisation a good thing for third world countries?

      Tom,

      No, you said "jobs going to the 3rd world for cheaper labor tend to be providing much better incomes to the 3rd world people than they had before globalization". This remark has nothing to do with carbon footprints.

      Now the workers in the Apple factories are earning 65p per hour. If this constitutes a "much better" income that before globalisation, I wonder what you thought they were earning before.

      The facts about the working conditions at the Apple factories should make owners of I-Pads and I-Phones ashamed and embarrassed. The world was a much better place before globalisation.

      Jim

      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
      >
      > Jim
      >
      > I guess my point was that in terms of carbon imprint per capita the gap between the west and third world countries is likely going to decline.
      >
      > Peace
      > Tom

      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Jim
      > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 5:17 AM
      > Subject: [existlist] Is globalisation a good thing for third world countries?
      >
      >
      >
      > Tom,
      >
      > You write:
      >
      > "I was not comparing rulihng classes, as much as expressing the fact that jobs going to the 3rd world for cheaper labor tend to be providing much better incomes to the 3rd world people than they had before globalization. At the same time, it tends to take well paying jobs away from advanced countries reducing the disparity. I'd guess you and Bill can also recall when "Made in Japan" implied shoddy quality. The times have changed. China is expected to surpass the GDP of the US in a few years. Of course they have over 3 times the population, but the balance is changing."
      >
      > In this quote you are suggesting that globalisation is a good thing for the citizens of China and similar countries. I disagree.
      >
      > Working conditions are so bad at the Chinese factories which make I-Pads and I-Phones that new employees have to sign an anti-suicide pledge. See:
      >
      > http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2011/apr/30/apple-chinese-workers-treated-inhumanely
      >
      > If I turned up for a new job and had to sign a guarantee that I wouldn't commit suicide in my new job, I would be a little suspicious of the working conditions!
      >
      > Jim

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