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Suffer the little lost bytes to come unto me...

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  • josephson45r
    Like Bill, I also wonder what and where the internet ether is? It must be the sum of all the typed, fragmented then scrubbed, actions of millions; the more or
    Message 1 of 12 , Apr 21, 2011
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      Like Bill, I also wonder what and where the internet ether is? It must be the sum of all the typed, fragmented then scrubbed, actions of millions; the more or less poetic or factual buried in a landfill, or incinerated, with their ashes blowing on the wind, or absorbed by the ocean; and these, our increasingly fractured sentences and words, as artifacts of our existence.

      Yet offscreen and undocumented are the laughter and cries of children, who live and hope as we once did. When was the last time anyone developed a policy for the future with them in mind? A society that passes its children through the sacrificial fire of superficial values will destroy itself. We write for better things here, but any concept which doesn't include our embodied living future can't possibly be valid.

      Mary
    • William
      ... Mary, Now USA is using drone technology to attack Gadaffe. I am most interested in the effect of the weapons system against Merks. Robot war enters a new
      Message 2 of 12 , Apr 21, 2011
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        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "josephson45r" <josephson45r@...> wrote:
        >
        > Like Bill, I also wonder what and where the internet ether is? It must be the sum of all the typed, fragmented then scrubbed, actions of millions; the more or less poetic or factual buried in a landfill, or incinerated, with their ashes blowing on the wind, or absorbed by the ocean; and these, our increasingly fractured sentences and words, as artifacts of our existence.
        >
        > Yet offscreen and undocumented are the laughter and cries of children, who live and hope as we once did. When was the last time anyone developed a policy for the future with them in mind? A society that passes its children through the sacrificial fire of superficial values will destroy itself. We write for better things here, but any concept which doesn't include our embodied living future can't possibly be valid.
        >
        > Mary
        >
        Mary, Now USA is using drone technology to attack Gadaffe. I am most interested in the effect of the weapons system against Merks. Robot war enters a new era as paid fighters face unknown death from above. Fighter jets make noise and you can hide when they are around. Preditors can loiter, silently and the psychological impact seems different. The preditors can see at night and can carry hellfire missles.
        We did not endow the Packastani`s with that potent a system. They get hand launched camera drones. We know they will give them to the Taliban and AlQuada.
        Your I phone is spying on you and was keeping a secret record of your location , calls, durations and who you called. It is a you bug yourself kit.
        So we put one in the Pakistani drones and when they give them to the enemy, we give it to the enemy with preditors.
        See what we are learning ,Mary, what we can give to our children. Bill
      • Jim
        Mary, My response to your concern for the future society today s children will grow up in is, unsurprisingly, different from Bill s. Having the best military
        Message 3 of 12 , Apr 22, 2011
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          Mary,

          My response to your concern for the future society today's children will grow up in is, unsurprisingly, different from Bill's.

          Having the best military technology does not equate with having the most just and caring society.

          Recent studies have shown that the happiest societies are the most equalitarian ones, so one of my main political commitments is to narrowing the gap between the richest and poorest in British society.

          As you say, a good society needs to be built on genuine, deep, values, and not just superficial ones. Unfortunately the sort of democracy we have in the UK and US does not encourage long term planning for the future based on fundamental values. Politicians tend to think only of the short term – getting re-elected in four or five years time.

          I would also like to see a reduction in the speed at which we live our lives. I find that the young people around me are constantly stressed out by the hive of activity just to keep up with their peers. I am not generally one to quote poetry, but the following poem by William Henry Davies come to mind:

          "What is this life if, full of care,
          We have no time to stand and stare.
          No time to stand beneath the boughs
          And stare as long as sheep or cows.

          No time to see, when woods we pass,
          Where squirrels hide their nuts in grass.
          No time to see, in broad daylight,
          Streams full of stars, like skies at night.

          No time to turn at Beauty's glance,
          And watch her feet, how they can dance.
          No time to wait till her mouth can
          Enrich that smile her eyes began.
          A poor life this if, full of care,
          We have no time to stand and stare."

          Leisure from "Songs of Joy and Others" (1911)

          Jim





          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "josephson45r" <josephson45r@...> wrote:
          >
          > Like Bill, I also wonder what and where the internet ether is? It must be the sum of all the typed, fragmented then scrubbed, actions of millions; the more or less poetic or factual buried in a landfill, or incinerated, with their ashes blowing on the wind, or absorbed by the ocean; and these, our increasingly fractured sentences and words, as artifacts of our existence.
          >
          > Yet offscreen and undocumented are the laughter and cries of children, who live and hope as we once did. When was the last time anyone developed a policy for the future with them in mind? A society that passes its children through the sacrificial fire of superficial values will destroy itself. We write for better things here, but any concept which doesn't include our embodied living future can't possibly be valid.
          >
          > Mary
          >
        • William
          ... Pick a happy life away from the blood and pain but don`t try to call yourself an existentialist with that false trajectory. Bill
          Message 4 of 12 , Apr 22, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Jim" <jjimstuart1@...> wrote:
            >
            > Mary,
            >
            > My response to your concern for the future society today's children will grow up in is, unsurprisingly, different from Bill's.
            >
            > Having the best military technology does not equate with having the most just and caring society.
            >
            > Recent studies have shown that the happiest societies are the most equalitarian ones, so one of my main political commitments is to narrowing the gap between the richest and poorest in British society.
            >
            > As you say, a good society needs to be built on genuine, deep, values, and not just superficial ones. Unfortunately the sort of democracy we have in the UK and US does not encourage long term planning for the future based on fundamental values. Politicians tend to think only of the short term – getting re-elected in four or five years time.
            >
            > I would also like to see a reduction in the speed at which we live our lives. I find that the young people around me are constantly stressed out by the hive of activity just to keep up with their peers. I am not generally one to quote poetry, but the following poem by William Henry Davies come to mind:
            >
            > "What is this life if, full of care,
            > We have no time to stand and stare.
            > No time to stand beneath the boughs
            > And stare as long as sheep or cows.
            >
            > No time to see, when woods we pass,
            > Where squirrels hide their nuts in grass.
            > No time to see, in broad daylight,
            > Streams full of stars, like skies at night.
            >
            > No time to turn at Beauty's glance,
            > And watch her feet, how they can dance.
            > No time to wait till her mouth can
            > Enrich that smile her eyes began.
            > A poor life this if, full of care,
            > We have no time to stand and stare."
            >
            > Leisure from "Songs of Joy and Others" (1911)
            >
            > Jim
            > Jim , I did not suggest I wanted anybody to grow up any particular way. I am showing you what is happening before your generally glased eyes. I do not like your reading or poem . It is trite. Have you read Doestoietsky? Do you consider him an existentialist. I know that would need be after the fact so you don`t try to ambusch me with an an anacronism.
            Pick a happy life away from the blood and pain but don`t try to call yourself an existentialist with that false trajectory. Bill
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "josephson45r" <josephson45r@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Like Bill, I also wonder what and where the internet ether is? It must be the sum of all the typed, fragmented then scrubbed, actions of millions; the more or less poetic or factual buried in a landfill, or incinerated, with their ashes blowing on the wind, or absorbed by the ocean; and these, our increasingly fractured sentences and words, as artifacts of our existence.
            > >
            > > Yet offscreen and undocumented are the laughter and cries of children, who live and hope as we once did. When was the last time anyone developed a policy for the future with them in mind? A society that passes its children through the sacrificial fire of superficial values will destroy itself. We write for better things here, but any concept which doesn't include our embodied living future can't possibly be valid.
            > >
            > > Mary
            > >
            >
          • Mary
            Jim, I agree with Bill that better weapon technology reduces conflict fatalities, especially children. After all, I did say we should help the Libyan rebels,
            Message 5 of 12 , Apr 22, 2011
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              Jim,

              I agree with Bill that better weapon technology reduces conflict fatalities, especially children. After all, I did say we should help the Libyan rebels, yet also think revolution and war should be exceptional not standard methods. Better oil consumption priorities are a preventative strategy. (Norway sells almost all their oil to other countries but relies on green energy.) What about reviving conservation strategies and banning the use of oil for most everything except efficient vehicles, defense needs, and medical supplies? Why do we allow the proliferation of new, completely useless and toxic petro-chemical toys and novelties when recycled innovations enter the market place everyday? If the West is serious about preventing China's access to Arab/African oil, it's not especially proactive. Encouraging democratic reforms could have prevented much of the new bloodshed. Leaving oil price and supply in the hands of speculators (sorry, Bill), energy conglomerates, and government regulators is unfortunate for everyone else. Following oil policy for four decades leaves me with an especially sobering and cynical evaluation of their ethics and outlook for the future.

              Bill says follow the money, and on this particular vapor trail, we find resistance to alternative energy technology; a calculated philosophy of pillage and profit for personal aggrandizement; but nothing about the future, only a protracted propaganda campaign until the very end.

              I feel my generation failed the next by not expanding the cultural revolution in the sixties-seventies, and by too eagerly providing them with consumer diversions alongside dwindling philosophy education. We were skeptical enough about status quo values and government but dropped the ball on the environment. Everything fractured into micro-causes while inflation rotted what remained of the post-WWII boom, itself enabled by strong unions and VA loans for homes and education. Existentialism fueled the promise we let go of too easily, as we entered the work force and started raising families. I knew better but fell victim to my own bad faith. Nixon's disgraced presidency laid bare his opportunistic ending of the Vietnam war in order to crush the culture war. He proceeded to ravage the economy and destroy the middle class, neither of which have ever been restored or sustained. Western powers and their puppets measuredly play at it, never completely oppressing everyone, allowing just enough people to hope things will improve so they purchase their crap, but keep the best for themselves.

              So I completely agree with you, Jim, and add that superficial values are nearly disabling a new generation which is less connected to their environment than the previous. This alienation, supported in part by policy makers, is likely contributing to several mental and physical maladies, not to mention recent studies which confirm old suspicions about chemicals in the environment. I wonder if estrangement from nature makes children and adults more susceptible to propaganda and oppression. Here's an excellent resource I recommend to every parent and teacher I know, Richard Louv's "Last Child In The Woods: Saving Our Children From Nature-Deficit Disorder" with a link to an excerpt.

              http://richardlouv.com/books/last-child/excerpt/

              Some of the world's most creative minds had an affinity with nature which led to valuable philosophical, scientific, and artistic contributions, further inspiring us.

              Consider this a paper-less card. Happy Earth Day!
              Mary








              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Jim" <jjimstuart1@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Mary,
              > >
              > > My response to your concern for the future society today's children will grow up in is, unsurprisingly, different from Bill's.
              > >
              > > Having the best military technology does not equate with having the most just and caring society.
              > >
              > > Recent studies have shown that the happiest societies are the most equalitarian ones, so one of my main political commitments is to narrowing the gap between the richest and poorest in British society.
              > >
              > > As you say, a good society needs to be built on genuine, deep, values, and not just superficial ones. Unfortunately the sort of democracy we have in the UK and US does not encourage long term planning for the future based on fundamental values. Politicians tend to think only of the short term – getting re-elected in four or five years time.
              > >
              > > I would also like to see a reduction in the speed at which we live our lives. I find that the young people around me are constantly stressed out by the hive of activity just to keep up with their peers. I am not generally one to quote poetry, but the following poem by William Henry Davies come to mind:
              > >
              > > "What is this life if, full of care,
              > > We have no time to stand and stare.
              > > No time to stand beneath the boughs
              > > And stare as long as sheep or cows.
              > >
              > > No time to see, when woods we pass,
              > > Where squirrels hide their nuts in grass.
              > > No time to see, in broad daylight,
              > > Streams full of stars, like skies at night.
              > >
              > > No time to turn at Beauty's glance,
              > > And watch her feet, how they can dance.
              > > No time to wait till her mouth can
              > > Enrich that smile her eyes began.
              > > A poor life this if, full of care,
              > > We have no time to stand and stare."
              > >
              > > Leisure from "Songs of Joy and Others" (1911)
              > >
              > > Jim
              > > Jim , I did not suggest I wanted anybody to grow up any particular way. I am showing you what is happening before your generally glased eyes. I do not like your reading or poem . It is trite. Have you read Doestoietsky? Do you consider him an existentialist. I know that would need be after the fact so you don`t try to ambusch me with an an anacronism.
              > Pick a happy life away from the blood and pain but don`t try to call yourself an existentialist with that false trajectory. Bill
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "josephson45r" <josephson45r@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Like Bill, I also wonder what and where the internet ether is? It must be the sum of all the typed, fragmented then scrubbed, actions of millions; the more or less poetic or factual buried in a landfill, or incinerated, with their ashes blowing on the wind, or absorbed by the ocean; and these, our increasingly fractured sentences and words, as artifacts of our existence.
              > > >
              > > > Yet offscreen and undocumented are the laughter and cries of children, who live and hope as we once did. When was the last time anyone developed a policy for the future with them in mind? A society that passes its children through the sacrificial fire of superficial values will destroy itself. We write for better things here, but any concept which doesn't include our embodied living future can't possibly be valid.
              > > >
              > > > Mary
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • William
              Message 6 of 12 , Apr 22, 2011
              • 0 Attachment
                --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@...> wrote:
                >
                > Jim,
                >
                > I agree with Bill that better weapon technology reduces conflict fatalities, especially children. After all, I did say we should help the Libyan rebels, yet also think revolution and war should be exceptional not standard methods. Better oil consumption priorities are a preventative strategy. (Norway sells almost all their oil to other countries but relies on green energy.) What about reviving conservation strategies and banning the use of oil for most everything except efficient vehicles, defense needs, and medical supplies? Why do we allow the proliferation of new, completely useless and toxic petro-chemical toys and novelties when recycled innovations enter the market place everyday? If the West is serious about preventing China's access to Arab/African oil, it's not especially proactive. Encouraging democratic reforms could have prevented much of the new bloodshed. Leaving oil price and supply in the hands of speculators (sorry, Bill), energy conglomerates, and government regulators is unfortunate for everyone else. Following oil policy for four decades leaves me with an especially sobering and cynical evaluation of their ethics and outlook for the future.
                >
                > Bill says follow the money, and on this particular vapor trail, we find resistance to alternative energy technology; a calculated philosophy of pillage and profit for personal aggrandizement; but nothing about the future, only a protracted propaganda campaign until the very end.
                >
                > I feel my generation failed the next by not expanding the cultural revolution in the sixties-seventies, and by too eagerly providing them with consumer diversions alongside dwindling philosophy education. We were skeptical enough about status quo values and government but dropped the ball on the environment. Everything fractured into micro-causes while inflation rotted what remained of the post-WWII boom, itself enabled by strong unions and VA loans for homes and education. Existentialism fueled the promise we let go of too easily, as we entered the work force and started raising families. I knew better but fell victim to my own bad faith. Nixon's disgraced presidency laid bare his opportunistic ending of the Vietnam war in order to crush the culture war. He proceeded to ravage the economy and destroy the middle class, neither of which have ever been restored or sustained. Western powers and their puppets measuredly play at it, never completely oppressing everyone, allowing just enough people to hope things will improve so they purchase their crap, but keep the best for themselves.
                >
                > So I completely agree with you, Jim, and add that superficial values are nearly disabling a new generation which is less connected to their environment than the previous. This alienation, supported in part by policy makers, is likely contributing to several mental and physical maladies, not to mention recent studies which confirm old suspicions about chemicals in the environment. I wonder if estrangement from nature makes children and adults more susceptible to propaganda and oppression. Here's an excellent resource I recommend to every parent and teacher I know, Richard Louv's "Last Child In The Woods: Saving Our Children From Nature-Deficit Disorder" with a link to an excerpt.
                >
                > http://richardlouv.com/books/last-child/excerpt/
                >
                > Some of the world's most creative minds had an affinity with nature which led to valuable philosophical, scientific, and artistic contributions, further inspiring us.
                >
                > Consider this a paper-less card. Happy Earth Day!
                > Mary
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@> wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Jim" <jjimstuart1@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Mary,
                > > >
                > > > My response to your concern for the future society today's children will grow up in is, unsurprisingly, different from Bill's.
                > > >
                > > > Having the best military technology does not equate with having the most just and caring society.
                > > >
                > > > Recent studies have shown that the happiest societies are the most equalitarian ones, so one of my main political commitments is to narrowing the gap between the richest and poorest in British society.
                > > >
                > > > As you say, a good society needs to be built on genuine, deep, values, and not just superficial ones. Unfortunately the sort of democracy we have in the UK and US does not encourage long term planning for the future based on fundamental values. Politicians tend to think only of the short term – getting re-elected in four or five years time.
                > > >
                > > > I would also like to see a reduction in the speed at which we live our lives. I find that the young people around me are constantly stressed out by the hive of activity just to keep up with their peers. I am not generally one to quote poetry, but the following poem by William Henry Davies come to mind:
                > > >
                > > > "What is this life if, full of care,
                > > > We have no time to stand and stare.
                > > > No time to stand beneath the boughs
                > > > And stare as long as sheep or cows.
                > > >
                > > > No time to see, when woods we pass,
                > > > Where squirrels hide their nuts in grass.
                > > > No time to see, in broad daylight,
                > > > Streams full of stars, like skies at night.
                > > >
                > > > No time to turn at Beauty's glance,
                > > > And watch her feet, how they can dance.
                > > > No time to wait till her mouth can
                > > > Enrich that smile her eyes began.
                > > > A poor life this if, full of care,
                > > > We have no time to stand and stare."
                > > >
                > > > Leisure from "Songs of Joy and Others" (1911)
                > > >
                > > > Jim
                > > > Jim , I did not suggest I wanted anybody to grow up any particular way. I am showing you what is happening before your generally glased eyes. I do not like your reading or poem . It is trite. Have you read Doestoietsky? Do you consider him an existentialist. I know that would need be after the fact so you don`t try to ambusch me with an an anacronism.
                > > Pick a happy life away from the blood and pain but don`t try to call yourself an existentialist with that false trajectory. Bill
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "josephson45r" <josephson45r@> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > Like Bill, I also wonder what and where the internet ether is? It must be the sum of all the typed, fragmented then scrubbed, actions of millions; the more or less poetic or factual buried in a landfill, or incinerated, with their ashes blowing on the wind, or absorbed by the ocean; and these, our increasingly fractured sentences and words, as artifacts of our existence.
                > > > >
                > > > > Yet offscreen and undocumented are the laughter and cries of children, who live and hope as we once did. When was the last time anyone developed a policy for the future with them in mind? A society that passes its children through the sacrificial fire of superficial values will destroy itself. We write for better things here, but any concept which doesn't include our embodied living future can't possibly be valid.
                > > > >
                > > > > Mary
                > > > >Mary, I do not speculate, I program buy and am as exposed to the market as anyone else. The boys at Goldmsn Sacs have the leverage to move oil prices and they do it,they just did and Obama appears to be out to get them. He won`t get shit but he has to appear to have some power. Goldman is running up on a real ego slam. The big oils are going to gas in the central north and they don`t need investment bankers, they have cash and you know what cash does and you know what walks. We`ll I think it is time those theiving bastards walk, right through their own excrement. Bill
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • tom
                Mary It is hard to determine who are the good guys, and who are the bad guys? The same people can be spun as good or bad guys. The Taliban was spun as freedom
                Message 7 of 12 , Apr 22, 2011
                • 0 Attachment
                  Mary

                  It is hard to determine who are the good guys, and who are the bad guys? The same people can be spun as good or bad guys. The Taliban was spun as freedom fighters in the 80s during USSR occupation of Afghanistan, and 20 years later as terrorists when the US was the occupier. CIA director Colby alleged in the 70s that all major media figures are in our pocket. GE owns NBC I think, and is heavily invested in military complex business. I frankly believe there are extremely, powerful and wealthy groups continually promoting an agenda to keep the US involved in interventionist warfare. A peaceful world would be as welcome to these cats as a drug free America would to the DEA.If the US spends many years in conflicts which looked back on seemed to be lots of lives and money spent for what little permanent good it did. from the military industrial complex position they were great to sell hundreds of billions of weapons and ammo.

                  Peace
                  Tom




                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Mary
                  To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 2:06 PM
                  Subject: [existlist] Re: Suffer the little lost bytes to come unto me...



                  Jim,

                  I agree with Bill that better weapon technology reduces conflict fatalities, especially children. After all, I did say we should help the Libyan rebels, yet also think revolution and war should be exceptional not standard methods. Better oil consumption priorities are a preventative strategy. (Norway sells almost all their oil to other countries but relies on green energy.) What about reviving conservation strategies and banning the use of oil for most everything except efficient vehicles, defense needs, and medical supplies? Why do we allow the proliferation of new, completely useless and toxic petro-chemical toys and novelties when recycled innovations enter the market place everyday? If the West is serious about preventing China's access to Arab/African oil, it's not especially proactive. Encouraging democratic reforms could have prevented much of the new bloodshed. Leaving oil price and supply in the hands of speculators (sorry, Bill), energy conglomerates, and government regulators is unfortunate for everyone else. Following oil policy for four decades leaves me with an especially sobering and cynical evaluation of their ethics and outlook for the future.

                  Bill says follow the money, and on this particular vapor trail, we find resistance to alternative energy technology; a calculated philosophy of pillage and profit for personal aggrandizement; but nothing about the future, only a protracted propaganda campaign until the very end.

                  I feel my generation failed the next by not expanding the cultural revolution in the sixties-seventies, and by too eagerly providing them with consumer diversions alongside dwindling philosophy education. We were skeptical enough about status quo values and government but dropped the ball on the environment. Everything fractured into micro-causes while inflation rotted what remained of the post-WWII boom, itself enabled by strong unions and VA loans for homes and education. Existentialism fueled the promise we let go of too easily, as we entered the work force and started raising families. I knew better but fell victim to my own bad faith. Nixon's disgraced presidency laid bare his opportunistic ending of the Vietnam war in order to crush the culture war. He proceeded to ravage the economy and destroy the middle class, neither of which have ever been restored or sustained. Western powers and their puppets measuredly play at it, never completely oppressing everyone, allowing just enough people to hope things will improve so they purchase their crap, but keep the best for themselves.

                  So I completely agree with you, Jim, and add that superficial values are nearly disabling a new generation which is less connected to their environment than the previous. This alienation, supported in part by policy makers, is likely contributing to several mental and physical maladies, not to mention recent studies which confirm old suspicions about chemicals in the environment. I wonder if estrangement from nature makes children and adults more susceptible to propaganda and oppression. Here's an excellent resource I recommend to every parent and teacher I know, Richard Louv's "Last Child In The Woods: Saving Our Children From Nature-Deficit Disorder" with a link to an excerpt.

                  http://richardlouv.com/books/last-child/excerpt/

                  Some of the world's most creative minds had an affinity with nature which led to valuable philosophical, scientific, and artistic contributions, further inspiring us.

                  Consider this a paper-less card. Happy Earth Day!
                  Mary


                  --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Jim" <jjimstuart1@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Mary,
                  > >
                  > > My response to your concern for the future society today's children will grow up in is, unsurprisingly, different from Bill's.
                  > >
                  > > Having the best military technology does not equate with having the most just and caring society.
                  > >
                  > > Recent studies have shown that the happiest societies are the most equalitarian ones, so one of my main political commitments is to narrowing the gap between the richest and poorest in British society.
                  > >
                  > > As you say, a good society needs to be built on genuine, deep, values, and not just superficial ones. Unfortunately the sort of democracy we have in the UK and US does not encourage long term planning for the future based on fundamental values. Politicians tend to think only of the short term - getting re-elected in four or five years time.
                  > >
                  > > I would also like to see a reduction in the speed at which we live our lives. I find that the young people around me are constantly stressed out by the hive of activity just to keep up with their peers. I am not generally one to quote poetry, but the following poem by William Henry Davies come to mind:
                  > >
                  > > "What is this life if, full of care,
                  > > We have no time to stand and stare.
                  > > No time to stand beneath the boughs
                  > > And stare as long as sheep or cows.
                  > >
                  > > No time to see, when woods we pass,
                  > > Where squirrels hide their nuts in grass.
                  > > No time to see, in broad daylight,
                  > > Streams full of stars, like skies at night.
                  > >
                  > > No time to turn at Beauty's glance,
                  > > And watch her feet, how they can dance.
                  > > No time to wait till her mouth can
                  > > Enrich that smile her eyes began.
                  > > A poor life this if, full of care,
                  > > We have no time to stand and stare."
                  > >
                  > > Leisure from "Songs of Joy and Others" (1911)
                  > >
                  > > Jim
                  > > Jim , I did not suggest I wanted anybody to grow up any particular way. I am showing you what is happening before your generally glased eyes. I do not like your reading or poem . It is trite. Have you read Doestoietsky? Do you consider him an existentialist. I know that would need be after the fact so you don`t try to ambusch me with an an anacronism.
                  > Pick a happy life away from the blood and pain but don`t try to call yourself an existentialist with that false trajectory. Bill
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "josephson45r" <josephson45r@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Like Bill, I also wonder what and where the internet ether is? It must be the sum of all the typed, fragmented then scrubbed, actions of millions; the more or less poetic or factual buried in a landfill, or incinerated, with their ashes blowing on the wind, or absorbed by the ocean; and these, our increasingly fractured sentences and words, as artifacts of our existence.
                  > > >
                  > > > Yet offscreen and undocumented are the laughter and cries of children, who live and hope as we once did. When was the last time anyone developed a policy for the future with them in mind? A society that passes its children through the sacrificial fire of superficial values will destroy itself. We write for better things here, but any concept which doesn't include our embodied living future can't possibly be valid.
                  > > >
                  > > > Mary
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Jim
                  Mary, Thank you very much for your reply. It has cheered me up no end. I think your assessment of how things have developed in the US over the last forty or so
                  Message 8 of 12 , Apr 23, 2011
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Mary,

                    Thank you very much for your reply. It has cheered me up no end.

                    I think your assessment of how things have developed in the US over the last forty or so years closely matches my own analysis of political and cultural trends both in the US and the UK.

                    I very much agree with you about the dangers of us – both young and old – getting estranged from nature. The link was helpful – I'm glad to hear that concerns about the environment and the loss of natural habitat are being taken seriously by individuals and groups in the US as well as here in Europe.

                    I've been watching some television programmes on Ancient Britain recently covering "The Stone Age", "The Bronze Age" and "The Iron Age". My guess is that in one hundred years time, historians will be referring to our times as "The Oil Age" or "The Fossil Fuel Age".

                    As you say, we are at a crossroads now as oil becomes less readily available and global warning due to the burning of fossil fuels is accepted as a fact by all except the self-deluded.

                    We in the UK and the US can plan for these geographical changes by investing in renewable sources of energy (solar power, wind power, wave power, etc.) like Norway, or we can blindly stick with the old ways of thinking – assuming a rampant capitalism based on unlimited amounts of fossil fuels and year-on-year economic growth will keep us healthy, wealthy and happy for ever.

                    Let's hope the new enlightened ways of thinking prevail.

                    Jim
                  • Mary
                    Tom et al, One of Camus objections to the purge was it primarily included writers and journalists, not industrialists. He foolishly said freedom trumped
                    Message 9 of 12 , Apr 23, 2011
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Tom et al,

                      One of Camus' objections to the purge was it primarily included writers and journalists, not industrialists. He foolishly said freedom trumped justice, but wisely rejected charity and pity as grounds for appeal. However, I think his absolutism defense is weak. Life imprisonment for dictators and high ranking military officers is not only crueler (which I prefer in this case), it too implies absolutes. Citizens holding these trials exercise huge responsibility and allow opportunity for the accused to deny or justify their crimes. Transparency about these wars, once denied the people, is restored. Isn't the law an unfolding absolute, without which there is no justice or freedom? Camus understood Hegel only through Marx and confused the Absolute with absolutism. When a tyrant is willfully responsible for the slaughter of millions, the people can restore their freedom through justice. Political purification of collaborators after wars and revolutions is likely farcical, but holding proven tyrants accountable is reasonable. I reject "new age" relativism which elicits sympathy for scraps of adult 'innocence,' and I refuse postmodern cynicism which says all knowledge can be spun. This is the antithesis of existentialism.

                      Mary

                      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Mary
                      >
                      > It is hard to determine who are the good guys, and who are the bad guys? The same people can be spun as good or bad guys. The Taliban was spun as freedom fighters in the 80s during USSR occupation of Afghanistan, and 20 years later as terrorists when the US was the occupier. CIA director Colby alleged in the 70s that all major media figures are in our pocket. GE owns NBC I think, and is heavily invested in military complex business. I frankly believe there are extremely, powerful and wealthy groups continually promoting an agenda to keep the US involved in interventionist warfare. A peaceful world would be as welcome to these cats as a drug free America would to the DEA.If the US spends many years in conflicts which looked back on seemed to be lots of lives and money spent for what little permanent good it did. from the military industrial complex position they were great to sell hundreds of billions of weapons and ammo.
                      >
                      > Peace
                      > Tom
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: Mary
                      > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 2:06 PM
                      > Subject: [existlist] Re: Suffer the little lost bytes to come unto me...
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Jim,
                      >
                      > I agree with Bill that better weapon technology reduces conflict fatalities, especially children. After all, I did say we should help the Libyan rebels, yet also think revolution and war should be exceptional not standard methods. Better oil consumption priorities are a preventative strategy. (Norway sells almost all their oil to other countries but relies on green energy.) What about reviving conservation strategies and banning the use of oil for most everything except efficient vehicles, defense needs, and medical supplies? Why do we allow the proliferation of new, completely useless and toxic petro-chemical toys and novelties when recycled innovations enter the market place everyday? If the West is serious about preventing China's access to Arab/African oil, it's not especially proactive. Encouraging democratic reforms could have prevented much of the new bloodshed. Leaving oil price and supply in the hands of speculators (sorry, Bill), energy conglomerates, and government regulators is unfortunate for everyone else. Following oil policy for four decades leaves me with an especially sobering and cynical evaluation of their ethics and outlook for the future.
                      >
                      > Bill says follow the money, and on this particular vapor trail, we find resistance to alternative energy technology; a calculated philosophy of pillage and profit for personal aggrandizement; but nothing about the future, only a protracted propaganda campaign until the very end.
                      >
                      > I feel my generation failed the next by not expanding the cultural revolution in the sixties-seventies, and by too eagerly providing them with consumer diversions alongside dwindling philosophy education. We were skeptical enough about status quo values and government but dropped the ball on the environment. Everything fractured into micro-causes while inflation rotted what remained of the post-WWII boom, itself enabled by strong unions and VA loans for homes and education. Existentialism fueled the promise we let go of too easily, as we entered the work force and started raising families. I knew better but fell victim to my own bad faith. Nixon's disgraced presidency laid bare his opportunistic ending of the Vietnam war in order to crush the culture war. He proceeded to ravage the economy and destroy the middle class, neither of which have ever been restored or sustained. Western powers and their puppets measuredly play at it, never completely oppressing everyone, allowing just enough people to hope things will improve so they purchase their crap, but keep the best for themselves.
                      >
                      > So I completely agree with you, Jim, and add that superficial values are nearly disabling a new generation which is less connected to their environment than the previous. This alienation, supported in part by policy makers, is likely contributing to several mental and physical maladies, not to mention recent studies which confirm old suspicions about chemicals in the environment. I wonder if estrangement from nature makes children and adults more susceptible to propaganda and oppression. Here's an excellent resource I recommend to every parent and teacher I know, Richard Louv's "Last Child In The Woods: Saving Our Children From Nature-Deficit Disorder" with a link to an excerpt.
                      >
                      > http://richardlouv.com/books/last-child/excerpt/
                      >
                      > Some of the world's most creative minds had an affinity with nature which led to valuable philosophical, scientific, and artistic contributions, further inspiring us.
                      >
                      > Consider this a paper-less card. Happy Earth Day!
                      > Mary
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Jim" <jjimstuart1@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Mary,
                      > > >
                      > > > My response to your concern for the future society today's children will grow up in is, unsurprisingly, different from Bill's.
                      > > >
                      > > > Having the best military technology does not equate with having the most just and caring society.
                      > > >
                      > > > Recent studies have shown that the happiest societies are the most equalitarian ones, so one of my main political commitments is to narrowing the gap between the richest and poorest in British society.
                      > > >
                      > > > As you say, a good society needs to be built on genuine, deep, values, and not just superficial ones. Unfortunately the sort of democracy we have in the UK and US does not encourage long term planning for the future based on fundamental values. Politicians tend to think only of the short term - getting re-elected in four or five years time.
                      > > >
                      > > > I would also like to see a reduction in the speed at which we live our lives. I find that the young people around me are constantly stressed out by the hive of activity just to keep up with their peers. I am not generally one to quote poetry, but the following poem by William Henry Davies come to mind:
                      > > >
                      > > > "What is this life if, full of care,
                      > > > We have no time to stand and stare.
                      > > > No time to stand beneath the boughs
                      > > > And stare as long as sheep or cows.
                      > > >
                      > > > No time to see, when woods we pass,
                      > > > Where squirrels hide their nuts in grass.
                      > > > No time to see, in broad daylight,
                      > > > Streams full of stars, like skies at night.
                      > > >
                      > > > No time to turn at Beauty's glance,
                      > > > And watch her feet, how they can dance.
                      > > > No time to wait till her mouth can
                      > > > Enrich that smile her eyes began.
                      > > > A poor life this if, full of care,
                      > > > We have no time to stand and stare."
                      > > >
                      > > > Leisure from "Songs of Joy and Others" (1911)
                      > > >
                      > > > Jim
                      > > > Jim , I did not suggest I wanted anybody to grow up any particular way. I am showing you what is happening before your generally glased eyes. I do not like your reading or poem . It is trite. Have you read Doestoietsky? Do you consider him an existentialist. I know that would need be after the fact so you don`t try to ambusch me with an an anacronism.
                      > > Pick a happy life away from the blood and pain but don`t try to call yourself an existentialist with that false trajectory. Bill
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "josephson45r" <josephson45r@> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Like Bill, I also wonder what and where the internet ether is? It must be the sum of all the typed, fragmented then scrubbed, actions of millions; the more or less poetic or factual buried in a landfill, or incinerated, with their ashes blowing on the wind, or absorbed by the ocean; and these, our increasingly fractured sentences and words, as artifacts of our existence.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Yet offscreen and undocumented are the laughter and cries of children, who live and hope as we once did. When was the last time anyone developed a policy for the future with them in mind? A society that passes its children through the sacrificial fire of superficial values will destroy itself. We write for better things here, but any concept which doesn't include our embodied living future can't possibly be valid.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Mary
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • Mary
                      Jim, Your welcome. I must however add that I think Norway has joined the list of nations prospecting and drilling below the Artic for gas and oil. Ironically
                      Message 10 of 12 , Apr 23, 2011
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Jim,

                        Your welcome. I must however add that I think Norway has joined the list of nations prospecting and drilling below the Artic for gas and oil. Ironically this is made possible by the melting ice cover!

                        Mary

                        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Jim" <jjimstuart1@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Mary,
                        >
                        > Thank you very much for your reply. It has cheered me up no end.
                        >
                        > I think your assessment of how things have developed in the US over the last forty or so years closely matches my own analysis of political and cultural trends both in the US and the UK.
                        >
                        > I very much agree with you about the dangers of us – both young and old – getting estranged from nature. The link was helpful – I'm glad to hear that concerns about the environment and the loss of natural habitat are being taken seriously by individuals and groups in the US as well as here in Europe.
                        >
                        > I've been watching some television programmes on Ancient Britain recently covering "The Stone Age", "The Bronze Age" and "The Iron Age". My guess is that in one hundred years time, historians will be referring to our times as "The Oil Age" or "The Fossil Fuel Age".
                        >
                        > As you say, we are at a crossroads now as oil becomes less readily available and global warning due to the burning of fossil fuels is accepted as a fact by all except the self-deluded.
                        >
                        > We in the UK and the US can plan for these geographical changes by investing in renewable sources of energy (solar power, wind power, wave power, etc.) like Norway, or we can blindly stick with the old ways of thinking – assuming a rampant capitalism based on unlimited amounts of fossil fuels and year-on-year economic growth will keep us healthy, wealthy and happy for ever.
                        >
                        > Let's hope the new enlightened ways of thinking prevail.
                        >
                        > Jim
                        >
                      • eupraxis
                        Mary, You wrote: Camus understood Hegel only through Marx and confused the Absolute with absolutism. When a tyrant is willfully responsible for the slaughter
                        Message 11 of 12 , Apr 25, 2011
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Mary,

                          You wrote: "Camus understood Hegel only through Marx and confused the Absolute with absolutism. When a tyrant is willfully responsible for the slaughter of millions, the people can restore their freedom through justice...."

                          Marx was quite aware of what "absolute" means in Hegel and never confused it with any kind of tyranny or "absolutism", it having nothing to do with those concepts at all. The Absolute in Hegel is the ultimate assuaging of unity in difference, the in-and-for-itself that is reach, for example, after the sublation of alienated picture thinking in the Phenomenology, etc. Camus could not have gleaned anything else from Marx -- concerning Hegel or dialectics at all.

                          You can easily see Marx's facility with Hegelian concepts in his Critique of Hegel's Phil of Right; The German Ideology; parts of The Poverty of Philosophy (a polemic against Proudon) and Holy Family, etc.

                          Wil

                          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Tom et al,
                          >
                          > One of Camus' objections to the purge was it primarily included writers and journalists, not industrialists. He foolishly said freedom trumped justice, but wisely rejected charity and pity as grounds for appeal. However, I think his absolutism defense is weak. Life imprisonment for dictators and high ranking military officers is not only crueler (which I prefer in this case), it too implies absolutes. Citizens holding these trials exercise huge responsibility and allow opportunity for the accused to deny or justify their crimes. Transparency about these wars, once denied the people, is restored. Isn't the law an unfolding absolute, without which there is no justice or freedom? Camus understood Hegel only through Marx and confused the Absolute with absolutism. When a tyrant is willfully responsible for the slaughter of millions, the people can restore their freedom through justice. Political purification of collaborators after wars and revolutions is likely farcical, but holding proven tyrants accountable is reasonable. I reject "new age" relativism which elicits sympathy for scraps of adult 'innocence,' and I refuse postmodern cynicism which says all knowledge can be spun. This is the antithesis of existentialism.
                          >
                          > Mary
                          >
                          > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Mary
                          > >
                          > > It is hard to determine who are the good guys, and who are the bad guys? The same people can be spun as good or bad guys. The Taliban was spun as freedom fighters in the 80s during USSR occupation of Afghanistan, and 20 years later as terrorists when the US was the occupier. CIA director Colby alleged in the 70s that all major media figures are in our pocket. GE owns NBC I think, and is heavily invested in military complex business. I frankly believe there are extremely, powerful and wealthy groups continually promoting an agenda to keep the US involved in interventionist warfare. A peaceful world would be as welcome to these cats as a drug free America would to the DEA.If the US spends many years in conflicts which looked back on seemed to be lots of lives and money spent for what little permanent good it did. from the military industrial complex position they were great to sell hundreds of billions of weapons and ammo.
                          > >
                          > > Peace
                          > > Tom
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > ----- Original Message -----
                          > > From: Mary
                          > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                          > > Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 2:06 PM
                          > > Subject: [existlist] Re: Suffer the little lost bytes to come unto me...
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Jim,
                          > >
                          > > I agree with Bill that better weapon technology reduces conflict fatalities, especially children. After all, I did say we should help the Libyan rebels, yet also think revolution and war should be exceptional not standard methods. Better oil consumption priorities are a preventative strategy. (Norway sells almost all their oil to other countries but relies on green energy.) What about reviving conservation strategies and banning the use of oil for most everything except efficient vehicles, defense needs, and medical supplies? Why do we allow the proliferation of new, completely useless and toxic petro-chemical toys and novelties when recycled innovations enter the market place everyday? If the West is serious about preventing China's access to Arab/African oil, it's not especially proactive. Encouraging democratic reforms could have prevented much of the new bloodshed. Leaving oil price and supply in the hands of speculators (sorry, Bill), energy conglomerates, and government regulators is unfortunate for everyone else. Following oil policy for four decades leaves me with an especially sobering and cynical evaluation of their ethics and outlook for the future.
                          > >
                          > > Bill says follow the money, and on this particular vapor trail, we find resistance to alternative energy technology; a calculated philosophy of pillage and profit for personal aggrandizement; but nothing about the future, only a protracted propaganda campaign until the very end.
                          > >
                          > > I feel my generation failed the next by not expanding the cultural revolution in the sixties-seventies, and by too eagerly providing them with consumer diversions alongside dwindling philosophy education. We were skeptical enough about status quo values and government but dropped the ball on the environment. Everything fractured into micro-causes while inflation rotted what remained of the post-WWII boom, itself enabled by strong unions and VA loans for homes and education. Existentialism fueled the promise we let go of too easily, as we entered the work force and started raising families. I knew better but fell victim to my own bad faith. Nixon's disgraced presidency laid bare his opportunistic ending of the Vietnam war in order to crush the culture war. He proceeded to ravage the economy and destroy the middle class, neither of which have ever been restored or sustained. Western powers and their puppets measuredly play at it, never completely oppressing everyone, allowing just enough people to hope things will improve so they purchase their crap, but keep the best for themselves.
                          > >
                          > > So I completely agree with you, Jim, and add that superficial values are nearly disabling a new generation which is less connected to their environment than the previous. This alienation, supported in part by policy makers, is likely contributing to several mental and physical maladies, not to mention recent studies which confirm old suspicions about chemicals in the environment. I wonder if estrangement from nature makes children and adults more susceptible to propaganda and oppression. Here's an excellent resource I recommend to every parent and teacher I know, Richard Louv's "Last Child In The Woods: Saving Our Children From Nature-Deficit Disorder" with a link to an excerpt.
                          > >
                          > > http://richardlouv.com/books/last-child/excerpt/
                          > >
                          > > Some of the world's most creative minds had an affinity with nature which led to valuable philosophical, scientific, and artistic contributions, further inspiring us.
                          > >
                          > > Consider this a paper-less card. Happy Earth Day!
                          > > Mary
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Jim" <jjimstuart1@> wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Mary,
                          > > > >
                          > > > > My response to your concern for the future society today's children will grow up in is, unsurprisingly, different from Bill's.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Having the best military technology does not equate with having the most just and caring society.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Recent studies have shown that the happiest societies are the most equalitarian ones, so one of my main political commitments is to narrowing the gap between the richest and poorest in British society.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > As you say, a good society needs to be built on genuine, deep, values, and not just superficial ones. Unfortunately the sort of democracy we have in the UK and US does not encourage long term planning for the future based on fundamental values. Politicians tend to think only of the short term - getting re-elected in four or five years time.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > I would also like to see a reduction in the speed at which we live our lives. I find that the young people around me are constantly stressed out by the hive of activity just to keep up with their peers. I am not generally one to quote poetry, but the following poem by William Henry Davies come to mind:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > "What is this life if, full of care,
                          > > > > We have no time to stand and stare.
                          > > > > No time to stand beneath the boughs
                          > > > > And stare as long as sheep or cows.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > No time to see, when woods we pass,
                          > > > > Where squirrels hide their nuts in grass.
                          > > > > No time to see, in broad daylight,
                          > > > > Streams full of stars, like skies at night.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > No time to turn at Beauty's glance,
                          > > > > And watch her feet, how they can dance.
                          > > > > No time to wait till her mouth can
                          > > > > Enrich that smile her eyes began.
                          > > > > A poor life this if, full of care,
                          > > > > We have no time to stand and stare."
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Leisure from "Songs of Joy and Others" (1911)
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Jim
                          > > > > Jim , I did not suggest I wanted anybody to grow up any particular way. I am showing you what is happening before your generally glased eyes. I do not like your reading or poem . It is trite. Have you read Doestoietsky? Do you consider him an existentialist. I know that would need be after the fact so you don`t try to ambusch me with an an anacronism.
                          > > > Pick a happy life away from the blood and pain but don`t try to call yourself an existentialist with that false trajectory. Bill
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "josephson45r" <josephson45r@> wrote:
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Like Bill, I also wonder what and where the internet ether is? It must be the sum of all the typed, fragmented then scrubbed, actions of millions; the more or less poetic or factual buried in a landfill, or incinerated, with their ashes blowing on the wind, or absorbed by the ocean; and these, our increasingly fractured sentences and words, as artifacts of our existence.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Yet offscreen and undocumented are the laughter and cries of children, who live and hope as we once did. When was the last time anyone developed a policy for the future with them in mind? A society that passes its children through the sacrificial fire of superficial values will destroy itself. We write for better things here, but any concept which doesn't include our embodied living future can't possibly be valid.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Mary
                          > > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >
                          >
                        • Mary
                          Wil, Thank you. I didn t mean to imply Marx didn t understand the difference, only that Camus didn t :) Mary
                          Message 12 of 12 , Apr 25, 2011
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Wil,

                            Thank you. I didn't mean to imply Marx didn't understand the difference, only that Camus didn't :)

                            Mary

                            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "eupraxis" <eupraxis@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Mary,
                            >
                            > You wrote: "Camus understood Hegel only through Marx and confused the Absolute with absolutism. When a tyrant is willfully responsible for the slaughter of millions, the people can restore their freedom through justice...."
                            >
                            > Marx was quite aware of what "absolute" means in Hegel and never confused it with any kind of tyranny or "absolutism", it having nothing to do with those concepts at all. The Absolute in Hegel is the ultimate assuaging of unity in difference, the in-and-for-itself that is reach, for example, after the sublation of alienated picture thinking in the Phenomenology, etc. Camus could not have gleaned anything else from Marx -- concerning Hegel or dialectics at all.
                            >
                            > You can easily see Marx's facility with Hegelian concepts in his Critique of Hegel's Phil of Right; The German Ideology; parts of The Poverty of Philosophy (a polemic against Proudon) and Holy Family, etc.
                            >
                            > Wil
                            >
                            > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Tom et al,
                            > >
                            > > One of Camus' objections to the purge was it primarily included writers and journalists, not industrialists. He foolishly said freedom trumped justice, but wisely rejected charity and pity as grounds for appeal. However, I think his absolutism defense is weak. Life imprisonment for dictators and high ranking military officers is not only crueler (which I prefer in this case), it too implies absolutes. Citizens holding these trials exercise huge responsibility and allow opportunity for the accused to deny or justify their crimes. Transparency about these wars, once denied the people, is restored. Isn't the law an unfolding absolute, without which there is no justice or freedom? Camus understood Hegel only through Marx and confused the Absolute with absolutism. When a tyrant is willfully responsible for the slaughter of millions, the people can restore their freedom through justice. Political purification of collaborators after wars and revolutions is likely farcical, but holding proven tyrants accountable is reasonable. I reject "new age" relativism which elicits sympathy for scraps of adult 'innocence,' and I refuse postmodern cynicism which says all knowledge can be spun. This is the antithesis of existentialism.
                            > >
                            > > Mary
                            > >
                            > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Mary
                            > > >
                            > > > It is hard to determine who are the good guys, and who are the bad guys? The same people can be spun as good or bad guys. The Taliban was spun as freedom fighters in the 80s during USSR occupation of Afghanistan, and 20 years later as terrorists when the US was the occupier. CIA director Colby alleged in the 70s that all major media figures are in our pocket. GE owns NBC I think, and is heavily invested in military complex business. I frankly believe there are extremely, powerful and wealthy groups continually promoting an agenda to keep the US involved in interventionist warfare. A peaceful world would be as welcome to these cats as a drug free America would to the DEA.If the US spends many years in conflicts which looked back on seemed to be lots of lives and money spent for what little permanent good it did. from the military industrial complex position they were great to sell hundreds of billions of weapons and ammo.
                            > > >
                            > > > Peace
                            > > > Tom
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > ----- Original Message -----
                            > > > From: Mary
                            > > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                            > > > Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 2:06 PM
                            > > > Subject: [existlist] Re: Suffer the little lost bytes to come unto me...
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > Jim,
                            > > >
                            > > > I agree with Bill that better weapon technology reduces conflict fatalities, especially children. After all, I did say we should help the Libyan rebels, yet also think revolution and war should be exceptional not standard methods. Better oil consumption priorities are a preventative strategy. (Norway sells almost all their oil to other countries but relies on green energy.) What about reviving conservation strategies and banning the use of oil for most everything except efficient vehicles, defense needs, and medical supplies? Why do we allow the proliferation of new, completely useless and toxic petro-chemical toys and novelties when recycled innovations enter the market place everyday? If the West is serious about preventing China's access to Arab/African oil, it's not especially proactive. Encouraging democratic reforms could have prevented much of the new bloodshed. Leaving oil price and supply in the hands of speculators (sorry, Bill), energy conglomerates, and government regulators is unfortunate for everyone else. Following oil policy for four decades leaves me with an especially sobering and cynical evaluation of their ethics and outlook for the future.
                            > > >
                            > > > Bill says follow the money, and on this particular vapor trail, we find resistance to alternative energy technology; a calculated philosophy of pillage and profit for personal aggrandizement; but nothing about the future, only a protracted propaganda campaign until the very end.
                            > > >
                            > > > I feel my generation failed the next by not expanding the cultural revolution in the sixties-seventies, and by too eagerly providing them with consumer diversions alongside dwindling philosophy education. We were skeptical enough about status quo values and government but dropped the ball on the environment. Everything fractured into micro-causes while inflation rotted what remained of the post-WWII boom, itself enabled by strong unions and VA loans for homes and education. Existentialism fueled the promise we let go of too easily, as we entered the work force and started raising families. I knew better but fell victim to my own bad faith. Nixon's disgraced presidency laid bare his opportunistic ending of the Vietnam war in order to crush the culture war. He proceeded to ravage the economy and destroy the middle class, neither of which have ever been restored or sustained. Western powers and their puppets measuredly play at it, never completely oppressing everyone, allowing just enough people to hope things will improve so they purchase their crap, but keep the best for themselves.
                            > > >
                            > > > So I completely agree with you, Jim, and add that superficial values are nearly disabling a new generation which is less connected to their environment than the previous. This alienation, supported in part by policy makers, is likely contributing to several mental and physical maladies, not to mention recent studies which confirm old suspicions about chemicals in the environment. I wonder if estrangement from nature makes children and adults more susceptible to propaganda and oppression. Here's an excellent resource I recommend to every parent and teacher I know, Richard Louv's "Last Child In The Woods: Saving Our Children From Nature-Deficit Disorder" with a link to an excerpt.
                            > > >
                            > > > http://richardlouv.com/books/last-child/excerpt/
                            > > >
                            > > > Some of the world's most creative minds had an affinity with nature which led to valuable philosophical, scientific, and artistic contributions, further inspiring us.
                            > > >
                            > > > Consider this a paper-less card. Happy Earth Day!
                            > > > Mary
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@> wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Jim" <jjimstuart1@> wrote:
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Mary,
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > My response to your concern for the future society today's children will grow up in is, unsurprisingly, different from Bill's.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Having the best military technology does not equate with having the most just and caring society.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Recent studies have shown that the happiest societies are the most equalitarian ones, so one of my main political commitments is to narrowing the gap between the richest and poorest in British society.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > As you say, a good society needs to be built on genuine, deep, values, and not just superficial ones. Unfortunately the sort of democracy we have in the UK and US does not encourage long term planning for the future based on fundamental values. Politicians tend to think only of the short term - getting re-elected in four or five years time.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > I would also like to see a reduction in the speed at which we live our lives. I find that the young people around me are constantly stressed out by the hive of activity just to keep up with their peers. I am not generally one to quote poetry, but the following poem by William Henry Davies come to mind:
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > "What is this life if, full of care,
                            > > > > > We have no time to stand and stare.
                            > > > > > No time to stand beneath the boughs
                            > > > > > And stare as long as sheep or cows.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > No time to see, when woods we pass,
                            > > > > > Where squirrels hide their nuts in grass.
                            > > > > > No time to see, in broad daylight,
                            > > > > > Streams full of stars, like skies at night.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > No time to turn at Beauty's glance,
                            > > > > > And watch her feet, how they can dance.
                            > > > > > No time to wait till her mouth can
                            > > > > > Enrich that smile her eyes began.
                            > > > > > A poor life this if, full of care,
                            > > > > > We have no time to stand and stare."
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Leisure from "Songs of Joy and Others" (1911)
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Jim
                            > > > > > Jim , I did not suggest I wanted anybody to grow up any particular way. I am showing you what is happening before your generally glased eyes. I do not like your reading or poem . It is trite. Have you read Doestoietsky? Do you consider him an existentialist. I know that would need be after the fact so you don`t try to ambusch me with an an anacronism.
                            > > > > Pick a happy life away from the blood and pain but don`t try to call yourself an existentialist with that false trajectory. Bill
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "josephson45r" <josephson45r@> wrote:
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Like Bill, I also wonder what and where the internet ether is? It must be the sum of all the typed, fragmented then scrubbed, actions of millions; the more or less poetic or factual buried in a landfill, or incinerated, with their ashes blowing on the wind, or absorbed by the ocean; and these, our increasingly fractured sentences and words, as artifacts of our existence.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Yet offscreen and undocumented are the laughter and cries of children, who live and hope as we once did. When was the last time anyone developed a policy for the future with them in mind? A society that passes its children through the sacrificial fire of superficial values will destroy itself. We write for better things here, but any concept which doesn't include our embodied living future can't possibly be valid.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Mary
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
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