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Re: [existlist] Re: Non judgemental perception

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  • Herman
    Hi Mary, ... Perhaps my work with brain-injured folks is rubbing of on my thinking :-) Or perhaps, we are approaching what a pure phenomenology might look
    Message 1 of 12 , Apr 13, 2011
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      Hi Mary,

      On 14 April 2011 04:24, Mary <josephson45r@...> wrote:

      >
      >
      > Hello Herman,
      >
      > I think we've reached an impasse, because to conclude neither narrative nor
      > reason are necessary denies their efficacy in helping you reach your
      > conclusion :)
      >
      >
      Perhaps my work with brain-injured folks is rubbing of on my thinking :-)

      Or perhaps, we are approaching what a pure phenomenology might look like.

      In any case, thanks for the discussion. I feel that through it I am a bit
      clearer about some things.

      Cheers


      Herman




      >
      > Mary
      >
      > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Herman <hhofmeister@...> wrote:
      > >
      > > Hi Mary,
      > >
      > > On 9 April 2011 04:52, Mary <josephson45r@...> wrote:
      > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Herman,
      > > >
      > > > I agree with Jim this is an important conversation and with Wil's post
      > > > regarding pathos and ontos, though my reasons might be different. We
      > seem
      > > > both determined (mundanely) and free. Our thoughts, feelings,
      > subjectivity,
      > > > and objectivity are inseparable. But none of these prevent us from
      > relative
      > > > certainty--that very human imperfection-- which of course, leads to and
      > from
      > > > the anguish of incomplete knowledge. Unless I'm thoroughly confused,
      > doesn't
      > > > Zizek merge Lacan with Hegel to illustrate through contemporary
      > examples how
      > > > psychology and ontology are intertwined?
      > > >
      > > > Your example of Camus' Mersault in The Stranger is interesting, because
      > at
      > > > this early stage in his career, the absurd was his dominant theme. Yet
      > his
      > > > Myth of Sisyphus anticipated The Rebel. Events only `happened' to
      > Mersault,
      > > > because he never reflected on them before or afterward. He shallowly
      > > > followed his impulses. He only consciously reasoned and desired to live
      > when
      > > > he was about to be executed. He rationalized his predicament as Death
      > > > echoing back towards him throughout his life, and he recognized the
      > > > indifference of the universe, but longed for it nevertheless. Likewise,
      > it
      > > > was this reasoning that finally enabled him to feel affinity with his
      > mother
      > > > and friends. Mersault's contemplation of Death is not justification for
      > > > non-attachment. In fact, his awareness of an indifferent universe
      > actually
      > > > reversed his unconscious indifference!
      > > >
      > > >
      > > At the risk of being too insistent, I understand this to be a defense of
      > > narrating oneself to oneself :-)
      > >
      > > Personally, I find that it is precisely this activity which actually
      > opens
      > > the door to absurdity. The unreflected life is not absurd at all, it can
      > not
      > > be any other way; it is already there, and totally necessary.
      > >
      > >
      > > > Camus never claimed to be existentialist because of competition with
      > > > Sartre, and because he rejected totalitarianism. His ultimate rejection
      > of
      > > > revolution was never a disavowal of limited rebellion or engagement
      > with
      > > > specific causes. The Rebel is his resolution of the absurd into limited
      > > > action, but action nonetheless.
      > > >
      > > > According to Sartre, not choosing is a choice. My preference for
      > > > dialectical reason, despite my muddling of its specifics, is because it
      > is
      > > > both process and real result. I make choices based on how the totality
      > has
      > > > shaped me, but I also shape the totality. This isn't futility but
      > progress.
      > > > I also find with David Bohm's unique blend of dialectical-dialogue and
      > > > quantum holism there is no escape from the terrifying and wonderful
      > anguish
      > > > of freedom, which is only actualized through action. The possibility of
      > > > human extinction merely validates this.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > The belief in possibilities is a sure sign of having entered the absurd.
      > >
      > > Cheers
      > >
      > >
      > > Herman
      > >
      > >
      > > >
      > > > Mary
      > > >
      > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Herman <hhofmeister@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > Hi Mary,
      > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > On 7 April 2011 23:45, Mary <josephson45r@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Herman,
      > > > > >
      > > > > > I offered the two posts to point out in two particular
      > matters-slavery
      > > > and
      > > > > > child poverty-the British surpass/ed us. If slavery had been
      > abolished
      > > > at
      > > > > > our founding, then the Civil War might have been avoided. If child
      > > > poverty
      > > > > > isn't abolished, the new civil war Bill envisions is made more
      > > > probable, as
      > > > > > is evidenced across several continents.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > I agree with Bill that mettle (much like authenticity) is acquired
      > and
      > > > > > honed by experience but respectfully disagree that military
      > officers
      > > > are
      > > > > > exempted from the duty of choice, that gold standard of
      > existentialism.
      > > > This
      > > > > > seems the relevant portion of the article:
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > Thanks for clarifying. I assume from your support of Wil in opposing
      > > > > Brandon's viewpoint that for you choice has some sort of agency /
      > free
      > > > will
      > > > > connotation.
      > > > >
      > > > > I'll just go on the record here, and state that for me it doesn't,
      > and
      > > > that
      > > > > I don't think that diminishes my existentialist standing. I would
      > sooner
      > > > say
      > > > > that freedom is the hallmark of existentialism, such freedom having
      > no
      > > > > free-will import, but rather highlighting that no choice is a
      > necessary
      > > > one,
      > > > > or vice-versa, that all choices are gratuitous - hence anguish.
      > > > >
      > > > > Cheers
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Herman
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > > �Earthshaking events are sometimes set in motion by small
      > decisions.
      > > > > > Perhaps the most famous example was when Rosa Parks boarded a
      > > > segregated bus
      > > > > > in Montgomery, Ala. More recently, a Tunisian fruit vendor's
      > refusal to
      > > > pay
      > > > > > a bribe set off a revolution that continues to sweep across the
      > Arab
      > > > world.
      > > > > > But in some ways, the moment most like the flight of fugitive
      > slaves to
      > > > Fort
      > > > > > Monroe came two decades ago, when a minor East German bureaucratic
      > > > foul-up
      > > > > > loosed a tide of liberation across half of Europe. On the evening
      > of
      > > > Nov. 9,
      > > > > > 1989, a tumultuous throng of people pressed against the Berlin Wall
      > at
      > > > > > Checkpoint Charlie, in response to an erroneous announcement that
      > the
      > > > ban on
      > > > > > travel to the West would be lifted immediately. The captain in
      > charge
      > > > of the
      > > > > > befuddled East German border guards dialed and redialed
      > headquarters to
      > > > find
      > > > > > some higher-up who could give him definitive orders. None could. He
      > put
      > > > the
      > > > > > phone down and stood still for a moment, pondering. "Perhaps he
      > came to
      > > > his
      > > > > > own decision," Michael Meyer of Newsweek would write. "Whatever the
      > > > case, at
      > > > > > 11:17 p.m. precisely, he shrugged his shoulders, as if to say, `Why
      > > > not?' .
      > > > > > . . `Alles auf!' he ordered. `Open 'em up,' and the gates swung
      > wide."
      > > > > >
      > > > > > "The Iron Curtain did not unravel at that moment, but that night
      > the
      > > > > > possibility of cautious, incremental change ceased to exist, if it
      > had
      > > > ever
      > > > > > really existed at all. The wall fell because of those thousands of
      > > > pressing
      > > > > > bodies, and because of that border guard's shrug.�
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Mary
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Herman <hhofmeister@> wrote:
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Hey Tom, Mary and all,
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > I also agree with you, Tom.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > On 7 April 2011 02:07, Mary <josephson45r@> wrote:
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > Tom,
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > I agree but it's also important to delineate existentialism
      > from
      > > > other
      > > > > > > > philosophies through vigorous argument.Here are two somewhat
      > > > topical
      > > > > > links
      > > > > > > > which point to how our founding Empire was/is ahead of old/new
      > > > > > > > America;--and--how progress is easily erased by self-serving
      > > > > > politicians vs.
      > > > > > > > dedicated statesmen.
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Thank you for the links, Mary. I read them, with avarice :-)
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > I'm not sure from what you said whether they were meant to be in
      > > > support
      > > > > > of
      > > > > > > a certain definition of existentialism, and if they were, I
      > confess
      > > > to
      > > > > > > remaining unconvinced that existentialism is definable in a
      > positive
      > > > way.
      > > > > > I
      > > > > > > would certainly recognise what isn't existentialism.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Cheers
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Herman
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > HOW SLAVERY REALLY ENDED IN AMERICA
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > >
      > http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/03/magazine/mag-03CivilWar-t.html?src=me&ref=general
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > SUFFER THE LITTLE CHILDREN
      > > > > > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/25/opinion/25blow.html
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > Mary
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@>
      > > > wrote:
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > I believe the more we can begin to attempt to see how various
      > > > people
      > > > > > > > perceive things, and what is of value to them;the greater
      > becomes
      > > > our
      > > > > > > > understanding of the actual world in which we live. Carl Jung
      > > > posited
      > > > > > eight
      > > > > > > > personality types. I'd guess other thinkers might break it down
      > > > into
      > > > > > other
      > > > > > > > classifications. As I recall, Jung's point was that one was not
      > > > > > necesarily
      > > > > > > > better than another; and that all types had some very highly
      > > > actualized
      > > > > > > > people, as well as some that who have had more than their share
      > of
      > > > > > > > disapointments, and failures.Within that framework, rather than
      > > > throw
      > > > > > stones
      > > > > > > > at anyone; it can be of intellectual interest to observe how
      > for
      > > > > > whatever
      > > > > > > > reasons some people do have a lot of faith in various
      > government
      > > > > > entities,
      > > > > > > > and some of us don't. In terms of expanding awareness, to
      > > > understand
      > > > > > how
      > > > > > > > life looks to an atheist, a theist, a polytheist, or an
      > agnostic
      > > > can be
      > > > > > a
      > > > > > > > psychologically expanding event. And even if we think of
      > ouirself
      > > > as
      > > > > > one or
      > > > > > > > the other, we might become aware of some of the other in our
      > > > > > subconcious.
      > > > > > > > Being raised in Catholic schools, I get a bit uneasy to see
      > > > heretics of
      > > > > > any
      > > > > > > > variety being stoned. "They stone when you are all alone.
      > Everybody
      > > > > > must get
      > > > > > > > stoned." Bob Dylan
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > If we see the world and the ecology as an evolving system; it
      > > > takes
      > > > > > all
      > > > > > > > kinds from the fleas to existensial writers.
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > Peace
      > > > > > > > > Tom
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      >
      >
      >


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