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Re:[existlist] Re: Future

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  • tom
    Bill This is interesting It should be mentioned, however that both Szilard and Einstein were appalled by the genie they had unleashed. It was in the light of
    Message 1 of 16 , Mar 27, 2011
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      Bill

      This is interesting

      It should be mentioned, however that both Szilard and Einstein were appalled by the genie they had unleashed. It was in the light of the foregoing that Albert Einstein made the following statement, which I personally consider to be the most profound by anyone"anytime"anyplace:

      "With the splitting of the atom, everything has changed except our way of thinking."



      Tom


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • William
      Tom, Indeed general and special relativity are very difficult subjects to comprehend. I really enjoy the pain of trying to put my mind around them. Evolution
      Message 2 of 16 , Mar 27, 2011
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        Tom, Indeed general and special relativity are very difficult subjects to comprehend. I really enjoy the pain of trying to put my mind around them. Evolution and relativity were the fruits of free thinking and could be seen as the spearpoint of evolutionary progress. I think existentialism is the lever that moved those huge stones.
        I watched as the right attempted to scuttle the Hubble Space telescope. Looking back to the deep space field really crushed the crystal rings and creationist lies. Now we crawl back into our pre Eienstein cave in the wake[pun intended] of the Japanese debacle. Public science programming is defunded by the flat earthers in the US house. They are desparate and seek authority from a criminal like Gingerich. On the demo side Sec Rice is a great little career builder in the mode of Wolfwhtz. She could be world bank president.
        Your three general paths of future situations are possibilities. Liberty grew with the space of expansion in the new world. We need a new planet and we have the tools to find and inhabit it. Bill
      • tom
        Bill I think an apt metaphor for the change brought about by the splitting of the atom is like the difference between 2 three year old boys who are pushing
        Message 3 of 16 , Mar 27, 2011
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          Bill

          I think an apt metaphor for the change brought about by the splitting of the atom is like the difference between 2 three year old boys who are pushing one another down on the plyground and the same guys 15 years later, if their capacity to peacefully coexist has not improved, while their size, strenghth and capacity to do each other harm has increased immensely. You very well may be right that events on earth are pointing us toward space expansion, but I likewise suspect events on earth are indicative of a need for evolution of human conciousness to a level where violence ceases to be frequent mode of resolving disputes, and hopefully where disputes become less frequent and less intense.

          The two possible futures are expressed in the following

          In John Lenon's" Imagine all the people living life in peace. You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one. I hope some day you will join us, and the world will be as one"

          or if thinking does not evolve as technology does

          In Orwell's future "A boot crushing a human face for all eternity".

          Lets hope the future is more like Lennon's imagine than Orwell's 1984. Interestingly, both Lennon and Orwell were heavily spied upon by the respective Orwellian forces of their space/times as disclosed by documents obtained under Freedom of Information Act of FBI records, and Scotland Yard records.


          Peace
          Tom
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: William
          To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2011 12:37 PM
          Subject: [existlist] Future



          Tom, Indeed general and special relativity are very difficult subjects to comprehend. I really enjoy the pain of trying to put my mind around them. Evolution and relativity were the fruits of free thinking and could be seen as the spearpoint of evolutionary progress. I think existentialism is the lever that moved those huge stones.
          I watched as the right attempted to scuttle the Hubble Space telescope. Looking back to the deep space field really crushed the crystal rings and creationist lies. Now we crawl back into our pre Eienstein cave in the wake[pun intended] of the Japanese debacle. Public science programming is defunded by the flat earthers in the US house. They are desparate and seek authority from a criminal like Gingerich. On the demo side Sec Rice is a great little career builder in the mode of Wolfwhtz. She could be world bank president.
          Your three general paths of future situations are possibilities. Liberty grew with the space of expansion in the new world. We need a new planet and we have the tools to find and inhabit it. Bill





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • irvhal
          Self-reflection is good, but some existentialists (and of a Euro-mode especially) can be quite self-effacing. Granted that the great technical achievements of
          Message 4 of 16 , Mar 27, 2011
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            Self-reflection is good, but some existentialists (and of a Euro-mode
            especially) can be quite self-effacing. Granted that the great technical achievements of the West (including the internet that makes our marvelous discourse possible) are not without risk -- such is the trade-off when proceding from finitude or knowledge less than perfect. But the West is indeed the goose that lays the golden egg. Primitivism is romantic. But it is the primitives who increasingly covet the fruits of our ways, while it is us who oogle the witch doctor. And as to our sometimes intrusive intelligence agencies, Lennon and Orwell must be taken in the context of the Cold War. We'd be myopic to assume that surveillance by Soviet or even "allied" intelligence agencies aren't comparably mischievous, both then and now.

            Irvin



            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
            >
            > Bill
            >
            > I think an apt metaphor for the change brought about by the splitting of the atom is like the difference between 2 three year old boys who are pushing one another down on the plyground and the same guys 15 years later, if their capacity to peacefully coexist has not improved, while their size, strenghth and capacity to do each other harm has increased immensely. You very well may be right that events on earth are pointing us toward space expansion, but I likewise suspect events on earth are indicative of a need for evolution of human conciousness to a level where violence ceases to be frequent mode of resolving disputes, and hopefully where disputes become less frequent and less intense.
            >
            > The two possible futures are expressed in the following
            >
            > In John Lenon's" Imagine all the people living life in peace. You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one. I hope some day you will join us, and the world will be as one"
            >
            > or if thinking does not evolve as technology does
            >
            > In Orwell's future "A boot crushing a human face for all eternity".
            >
            > Lets hope the future is more like Lennon's imagine than Orwell's 1984. Interestingly, both Lennon and Orwell were heavily spied upon by the respective Orwellian forces of their space/times as disclosed by documents obtained under Freedom of Information Act of FBI records, and Scotland Yard records.
            >
            >
            > Peace
            > Tom
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: William
            > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2011 12:37 PM
            > Subject: [existlist] Future
            >
            >
            >
            > Tom, Indeed general and special relativity are very difficult subjects to comprehend. I really enjoy the pain of trying to put my mind around them. Evolution and relativity were the fruits of free thinking and could be seen as the spearpoint of evolutionary progress. I think existentialism is the lever that moved those huge stones.
            > I watched as the right attempted to scuttle the Hubble Space telescope. Looking back to the deep space field really crushed the crystal rings and creationist lies. Now we crawl back into our pre Eienstein cave in the wake[pun intended] of the Japanese debacle. Public science programming is defunded by the flat earthers in the US house. They are desparate and seek authority from a criminal like Gingerich. On the demo side Sec Rice is a great little career builder in the mode of Wolfwhtz. She could be world bank president.
            > Your three general paths of future situations are possibilities. Liberty grew with the space of expansion in the new world. We need a new planet and we have the tools to find and inhabit it. Bill
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • William
            Tom, I have often pondered Lennons Imagine and find it perplexing . It calls for general ownership of all things and that sounds like anarchy to me. You
            Message 5 of 16 , Mar 27, 2011
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              Tom, I have often pondered Lennons "Imagine' and find it perplexing . It calls for general ownership of all things and that sounds like anarchy to me. You get up in the morning and someone has taken your underwhere. I mean do you stay home and praise the takers integrity? Lennon striking out against metaphysical impossibilities is just fine,no heaven ,no hell but competition is the drive wheel of evolution and I doubt stasis would have suited John for any amount of time. I remember Lennons interview with Al Capp, the cartoonist. They hated each other and came off as raging egoists. I then realised they were entertainers who do their craft for money as long as it sells. "A brotherhood of man" is possible if there is plenty but now we breed ourselves past poverty and demand justice. I know Orwell and Lennon were highly frustrated men who could see no practical answeres to the inequalities confronting them. Orwells"more equil" animals are no different than Charley Sheens winners. A secure heroine supply kept Lennon at bay until an even madder fool gunned him.
              Hinkley tried five times to shoot Reagan and I was told Reagan wanted Lennon dead. The more equil animals just want to be king of the hill. This universe operates that way and we are locked in until we are taken out. Yet in the end we all have Nothing. Bill
            • tom
              Irvin I certainly believe the cold war gave much substantiation to Nietzsche s statement Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one . Along
              Message 6 of 16 , Mar 27, 2011
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                Irvin

                I certainly believe the cold war gave much substantiation to Nietzsche's statement "Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one".
                Along with many others, in the 90s I hoped that with the cold war ended, and defense spending on the decline, the extreme militarization of earth we had grown up with was becoming a thing of the past. But once monsters are created, they often get a mind of their own; and the last 9 and a half years has proven to me that the US military industrial establisment will continually look for monsters to justify its expansion. The same can be said of the police state prison industrial complex. I read around the mid 90s as crimes against persons and property declined, mariuana arrests rose. The assumption being that one way or another these monsters will find something to justify their continuallty growing to even more monstrous proportions.

                Peace
                Tom
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: irvhal
                To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2011 3:26 PM
                Subject: [existlist] Re: Future



                Self-reflection is good, but some existentialists (and of a Euro-mode especially) can be quite self-effacing. Granted that the great technical achievements of the West (including the internet that makes our marvelous discourse possible) is not without risk -- such is the trade-off when proceding from finitude or knowledge less than perfect. But the West is indeed the goose that lays the golden egg. Primitivism is romantic. But it is the primitives who increasingly covet the fruits of our ways, while it is us who oogle the witch doctor. And as to our sometimes intrusive intelligence agencies, Lennon and Orwell must be taken in the context of the Cold War. We'd be myopic to assume that surveillance by Soviet or even "allied" intelligence agencies aren't comparably mischievous, both then and now.

                Irvin

                --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
                >
                > Bill
                >
                > I think an apt metaphor for the change brought about by the splitting of the atom is like the difference between 2 three year old boys who are pushing one another down on the plyground and the same guys 15 years later, if their capacity to peacefully coexist has not improved, while their size, strenghth and capacity to do each other harm has increased immensely. You very well may be right that events on earth are pointing us toward space expansion, but I likewise suspect events on earth are indicative of a need for evolution of human conciousness to a level where violence ceases to be frequent mode of resolving disputes, and hopefully where disputes become less frequent and less intense.
                >
                > The two possible futures are expressed in the following
                >
                > In John Lenon's" Imagine all the people living life in peace. You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one. I hope some day you will join us, and the world will be as one"
                >
                > or if thinking does not evolve as technology does
                >
                > In Orwell's future "A boot crushing a human face for all eternity".
                >
                > Lets hope the future is more like Lennon's imagine than Orwell's 1984. Interestingly, both Lennon and Orwell were heavily spied upon by the respective Orwellian forces of their space/times as disclosed by documents obtained under Freedom of Information Act of FBI records, and Scotland Yard records.
                >
                >
                > Peace
                > Tom
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: William
                > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2011 12:37 PM
                > Subject: [existlist] Future
                >
                >
                >
                > Tom, Indeed general and special relativity are very difficult subjects to comprehend. I really enjoy the pain of trying to put my mind around them. Evolution and relativity were the fruits of free thinking and could be seen as the spearpoint of evolutionary progress. I think existentialism is the lever that moved those huge stones.
                > I watched as the right attempted to scuttle the Hubble Space telescope. Looking back to the deep space field really crushed the crystal rings and creationist lies. Now we crawl back into our pre Eienstein cave in the wake[pun intended] of the Japanese debacle. Public science programming is defunded by the flat earthers in the US house. They are desparate and seek authority from a criminal like Gingerich. On the demo side Sec Rice is a great little career builder in the mode of Wolfwhtz. She could be world bank president.
                > Your three general paths of future situations are possibilities. Liberty grew with the space of expansion in the new world. We need a new planet and we have the tools to find and inhabit it. Bill
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • irvhal
                Lennon, like a certain Italian-American trollop now fancying British high society, wouldn t relinquish his wealth to anybody. And both his teasing of
                Message 7 of 16 , Mar 27, 2011
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                  Lennon, like a certain Italian-American trollop now fancying British high society, wouldn't relinquish his wealth to anybody. And both his teasing of (naturally) restive youth and trite moral criticisms were well within the ambit of (profitable) acceptabilty. No Helen Thomas moments for him.

                  Irvin



                  --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Tom, I have often pondered Lennons "Imagine' and find it perplexing . It calls for general ownership of all things and that sounds like anarchy to me. You get up in the morning and someone has taken your underwhere. I mean do you stay home and praise the takers integrity? Lennon striking out against metaphysical impossibilities is just fine,no heaven ,no hell but competition is the drive wheel of evolution and I doubt stasis would have suited John for any amount of time. I remember Lennons interview with Al Capp, the cartoonist. They hated each other and came off as raging egoists. I then realised they were entertainers who do their craft for money as long as it sells. "A brotherhood of man" is possible if there is plenty but now we breed ourselves past poverty and demand justice. I know Orwell and Lennon were highly frustrated men who could see no practical answeres to the inequalities confronting them. Orwells"more equil" animals are no different than Charley Sheens winners. A secure heroine supply kept Lennon at bay until an even madder fool gunned him.
                  > Hinkley tried five times to shoot Reagan and I was told Reagan wanted Lennon dead. The more equil animals just want to be king of the hill. This universe operates that way and we are locked in until we are taken out. Yet in the end we all have Nothing. Bill
                  >
                • tom
                  Bill Bresler interviewed Arthur O Connor, the lieutenant who was commanding officer of the 20th Precinct of the New York Police that dealt with John Lennon s
                  Message 8 of 16 , Mar 27, 2011
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                    Bill

                    Bresler interviewed Arthur O'Connor, the lieutenant who was commanding officer of the 20th Precinct of the New York Police that dealt with John Lennon's murder. He quotes O'Connor as saying, "As far as you are trying to build up some kind of conspiracy, I would support you in that line. Like I said originally over the phone, if the [assassin] wanted to get away with it, he could have got away with it. There was the subway right on the corner and no one around to stop him." Instead, once the assassin had accomplished his task, he calmly sat reading Catcher In The Rye and waited for the police to come.

                    "Why one method rather than the other, the amateur as against the professional? Because that way you avoid any awkward questions, and everyone seems to fall for it anyway. If a professional killer had gunned down John Lennon, the whole world would have known. Such swift expert assassinations carry their own individual hallmark. It would have been obvious what had happened, and with Lennon's history of War Is Over, peace and love political activity, there would have been [an in-depth investigation]." "But if you program an amateur to do the job, a so-called 'nut', very few questions are asked."



                    I read Lennon's son Sean thinks it was a hit. I believe the CIA or some Orwellian group has been knocking off cats ince JFK, and a few years later MLK, and RFK. George Wallace is said to have believed he was a victim of a conspiracy.

                    But the historical details of Lennon and Orwell are secondary to their descriptions of possible futures.



                    Tom

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: William
                    To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2011 3:43 PM
                    Subject: [existlist] Future



                    Tom, I have often pondered Lennons "Imagine' and find it perplexing . It calls for general ownership of all things and that sounds like anarchy to me. You get up in the morning and someone has taken your underwhere. I mean do you stay home and praise the takers integrity? Lennon striking out against metaphysical impossibilities is just fine,no heaven ,no hell but competition is the drive wheel of evolution and I doubt stasis would have suited John for any amount of time. I remember Lennons interview with Al Capp, the cartoonist. They hated each other and came off as raging egoists. I then realised they were entertainers who do their craft for money as long as it sells. "A brotherhood of man" is possible if there is plenty but now we breed ourselves past poverty and demand justice. I know Orwell and Lennon were highly frustrated men who could see no practical answeres to the inequalities confronting them. Orwells"more equil" animals are no different than Charley Sheens winners. A secure heroine supply kept Lennon at bay until an even madder fool gunned him.
                    Hinkley tried five times to shoot Reagan and I was told Reagan wanted Lennon dead. The more equil animals just want to be king of the hill. This universe operates that way and we are locked in until we are taken out. Yet in the end we all have Nothing. Bill





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Mary
                    Tom, Lennon s songbook is far more existentialist than the several postmodern capitulations posted here recently. Mary
                    Message 9 of 16 , Mar 27, 2011
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                      Tom,

                      Lennon's songbook is far more existentialist than the several postmodern capitulations posted here recently.

                      Mary

                      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Bill
                      >
                      > Bresler interviewed Arthur O'Connor, the lieutenant who was commanding officer of the 20th Precinct of the New York Police that dealt with John Lennon's murder. He quotes O'Connor as saying, "As far as you are trying to build up some kind of conspiracy, I would support you in that line. Like I said originally over the phone, if the [assassin] wanted to get away with it, he could have got away with it. There was the subway right on the corner and no one around to stop him." Instead, once the assassin had accomplished his task, he calmly sat reading Catcher In The Rye and waited for the police to come.
                      >
                      > "Why one method rather than the other, the amateur as against the professional? Because that way you avoid any awkward questions, and everyone seems to fall for it anyway. If a professional killer had gunned down John Lennon, the whole world would have known. Such swift expert assassinations carry their own individual hallmark. It would have been obvious what had happened, and with Lennon's history of War Is Over, peace and love political activity, there would have been [an in-depth investigation]." "But if you program an amateur to do the job, a so-called 'nut', very few questions are asked."
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > I read Lennon's son Sean thinks it was a hit. I believe the CIA or some Orwellian group has been knocking off cats ince JFK, and a few years later MLK, and RFK. George Wallace is said to have believed he was a victim of a conspiracy.
                      >
                      > But the historical details of Lennon and Orwell are secondary to their descriptions of possible futures.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Tom
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: William
                      > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2011 3:43 PM
                      > Subject: [existlist] Future
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Tom, I have often pondered Lennons "Imagine' and find it perplexing . It calls for general ownership of all things and that sounds like anarchy to me. You get up in the morning and someone has taken your underwhere. I mean do you stay home and praise the takers integrity? Lennon striking out against metaphysical impossibilities is just fine,no heaven ,no hell but competition is the drive wheel of evolution and I doubt stasis would have suited John for any amount of time. I remember Lennons interview with Al Capp, the cartoonist. They hated each other and came off as raging egoists. I then realised they were entertainers who do their craft for money as long as it sells. "A brotherhood of man" is possible if there is plenty but now we breed ourselves past poverty and demand justice. I know Orwell and Lennon were highly frustrated men who could see no practical answeres to the inequalities confronting them. Orwells"more equil" animals are no different than Charley Sheens winners. A secure heroine supply kept Lennon at bay until an even madder fool gunned him.
                      > Hinkley tried five times to shoot Reagan and I was told Reagan wanted Lennon dead. The more equil animals just want to be king of the hill. This universe operates that way and we are locked in until we are taken out. Yet in the end we all have Nothing. Bill
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • William
                      Message 10 of 16 , Mar 27, 2011
                      • 0 Attachment
                        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Tom,
                        >
                        > Lennon's songbook is far more existentialist than the several postmodern capitulations posted here recently.
                        >
                        > Mary
                        >
                        > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Bill
                        > >
                        > > Bresler interviewed Arthur O'Connor, the lieutenant who was commanding officer of the 20th Precinct of the New York Police that dealt with John Lennon's murder. He quotes O'Connor as saying, "As far as you are trying to build up some kind of conspiracy, I would support you in that line. Like I said originally over the phone, if the [assassin] wanted to get away with it, he could have got away with it. There was the subway right on the corner and no one around to stop him." Instead, once the assassin had accomplished his task, he calmly sat reading Catcher In The Rye and waited for the police to come.
                        > >
                        > > "Why one method rather than the other, the amateur as against the professional? Because that way you avoid any awkward questions, and everyone seems to fall for it anyway. If a professional killer had gunned down John Lennon, the whole world would have known. Such swift expert assassinations carry their own individual hallmark. It would have been obvious what had happened, and with Lennon's history of War Is Over, peace and love political activity, there would have been [an in-depth investigation]." "But if you program an amateur to do the job, a so-called 'nut', very few questions are asked."
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > I read Lennon's son Sean thinks it was a hit. I believe the CIA or some Orwellian group has been knocking off cats ince JFK, and a few years later MLK, and RFK. George Wallace is said to have believed he was a victim of a conspiracy.
                        > >
                        > > But the historical details of Lennon and Orwell are secondary to their descriptions of possible futures.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Tom
                        > > Tom, it is the rank ambitionists that I fear. They have little talent and operate on wild courage and false suppositians. It is not wrong to fear, but to operate from fear is to be terrorised. I think we all can smell threat. I have a lawyer friend whom I saw rudly threatned at a bar. He smiled and said if you are going to kill me come and try it,otherwise buy a round. That attitude is valuable and needed. Orwell wrote a Gullivers Travels of sociological possibilities. I do not remember how 1984 ends, I do not remember if it made any sense beyond the exposure of a control mechanism that seemed probable. I confuse it with "Lord of the flies" "Ape and essence" , "Blade runner" , "Seven pillars of Wisdom" and of course "The Dune trilogy" . It is a continuum of social science fiction and except for "Senen Pillars" is no more than fiction ,theory. Add Shogun and you have a foretold version of the present. It is better those books were written at least we have language to describe the obstacles we now face. Tsunami comes to mind , I bought rad suits better than twenty years ago. Good Soviet equiptment, Ivan knew of nuclear risk. So if you need to weigh some guilt,waste your time. Bill
                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > From: William
                        > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                        > > Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2011 3:43 PM
                        > > Subject: [existlist] Future
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Tom, I have often pondered Lennons "Imagine' and find it perplexing . It calls for general ownership of all things and that sounds like anarchy to me. You get up in the morning and someone has taken your underwhere. I mean do you stay home and praise the takers integrity? Lennon striking out against metaphysical impossibilities is just fine,no heaven ,no hell but competition is the drive wheel of evolution and I doubt stasis would have suited John for any amount of time. I remember Lennons interview with Al Capp, the cartoonist. They hated each other and came off as raging egoists. I then realised they were entertainers who do their craft for money as long as it sells. "A brotherhood of man" is possible if there is plenty but now we breed ourselves past poverty and demand justice. I know Orwell and Lennon were highly frustrated men who could see no practical answeres to the inequalities confronting them. Orwells"more equil" animals are no different than Charley Sheens winners. A secure heroine supply kept Lennon at bay until an even madder fool gunned him.
                        > > Hinkley tried five times to shoot Reagan and I was told Reagan wanted Lennon dead. The more equil animals just want to be king of the hill. This universe operates that way and we are locked in until we are taken out. Yet in the end we all have Nothing. Bill
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        >
                      • tom
                        Mary What postmodern capitulations are you referring to? Tom ... From: Mary To: existlist@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2011 7:32 PM Subject:
                        Message 11 of 16 , Mar 27, 2011
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                          Mary

                          What postmodern capitulations are you referring to?
                          Tom
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Mary
                          To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2011 7:32 PM
                          Subject: [existlist] Re: Future



                          Tom,

                          Lennon's songbook is far more existentialist than the several postmodern capitulations posted here recently.

                          Mary

                          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Bill
                          >
                          > Bresler interviewed Arthur O'Connor, the lieutenant who was commanding officer of the 20th Precinct of the New York Police that dealt with John Lennon's murder. He quotes O'Connor as saying, "As far as you are trying to build up some kind of conspiracy, I would support you in that line. Like I said originally over the phone, if the [assassin] wanted to get away with it, he could have got away with it. There was the subway right on the corner and no one around to stop him." Instead, once the assassin had accomplished his task, he calmly sat reading Catcher In The Rye and waited for the police to come.
                          >
                          > "Why one method rather than the other, the amateur as against the professional? Because that way you avoid any awkward questions, and everyone seems to fall for it anyway. If a professional killer had gunned down John Lennon, the whole world would have known. Such swift expert assassinations carry their own individual hallmark. It would have been obvious what had happened, and with Lennon's history of War Is Over, peace and love political activity, there would have been [an in-depth investigation]." "But if you program an amateur to do the job, a so-called 'nut', very few questions are asked."
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > I read Lennon's son Sean thinks it was a hit. I believe the CIA or some Orwellian group has been knocking off cats ince JFK, and a few years later MLK, and RFK. George Wallace is said to have believed he was a victim of a conspiracy.
                          >
                          > But the historical details of Lennon and Orwell are secondary to their descriptions of possible futures.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Tom
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: William
                          > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2011 3:43 PM
                          > Subject: [existlist] Future
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Tom, I have often pondered Lennons "Imagine' and find it perplexing . It calls for general ownership of all things and that sounds like anarchy to me. You get up in the morning and someone has taken your underwhere. I mean do you stay home and praise the takers integrity? Lennon striking out against metaphysical impossibilities is just fine,no heaven ,no hell but competition is the drive wheel of evolution and I doubt stasis would have suited John for any amount of time. I remember Lennons interview with Al Capp, the cartoonist. They hated each other and came off as raging egoists. I then realised they were entertainers who do their craft for money as long as it sells. "A brotherhood of man" is possible if there is plenty but now we breed ourselves past poverty and demand justice. I know Orwell and Lennon were highly frustrated men who could see no practical answeres to the inequalities confronting them. Orwells"more equil" animals are no different than Charley Sheens winners. A secure heroine supply kept Lennon at bay until an even madder fool gunned him.
                          > Hinkley tried five times to shoot Reagan and I was told Reagan wanted Lennon dead. The more equil animals just want to be king of the hill. This universe operates that way and we are locked in until we are taken out. Yet in the end we all have Nothing. Bill
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • tom
                          Bill I have heard of, but not read the other books to which you refer. Nineteen eighty four was assigned to my English class in 11the grade. I read it again in
                          Message 12 of 16 , Mar 28, 2011
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Bill

                            I have heard of, but not read the other books to which you refer. Nineteen eighty four was assigned to my English class in 11the grade. I read it again in 1984, and a third time in 2002. Terms like "Orwellian" "newspeak" "big brother" etc. have become part of our vocabulary. Interestingly, some crtics point out the similarity between the fictional Winston Smith working in the Ministry of Truth and Orwell working for BBC during ww2. Orwell was a great prophet As 1984 was being written, the CIA was being set up etc. Orwell's reference to how nations could be spun by propagandist newsmedia into good or bad, and back again has been noticable in the post Orwell years. A great case in point is how the same Afghanistan groups called "freedom fighters" in the 80s were reframed into "terrorists" in this century..During his presidency, Reagan met with the Taliban, and described them as of a moral caliber similar to our founding fathers. Reagan also took Iraq off the terrorist nation list, and twice sent Rumsfeld over to meet with Saddam and shake his hand. Right wing pundits like Rush and Hannity call themselves Reagan Republicans, but have painted totally oppposite pictures of the Taliban and Saddam. Dylan's "God on our side" in the early 60s depicted the spinning of bad guys into good guys etc in the line "Though they murdered sex million in their ovens they fried, the Germans now too have god on their side."

                            Peace
                            Tom
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: William
                            To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2011 9:43 PM
                            Subject: [existlist] Re: Future





                            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Tom,
                            >
                            > Lennon's songbook is far more existentialist than the several postmodern capitulations posted here recently.
                            >
                            > Mary
                            >
                            > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Bill
                            > >
                            > > Bresler interviewed Arthur O'Connor, the lieutenant who was commanding officer of the 20th Precinct of the New York Police that dealt with John Lennon's murder. He quotes O'Connor as saying, "As far as you are trying to build up some kind of conspiracy, I would support you in that line. Like I said originally over the phone, if the [assassin] wanted to get away with it, he could have got away with it. There was the subway right on the corner and no one around to stop him." Instead, once the assassin had accomplished his task, he calmly sat reading Catcher In The Rye and waited for the police to come.
                            > >
                            > > "Why one method rather than the other, the amateur as against the professional? Because that way you avoid any awkward questions, and everyone seems to fall for it anyway. If a professional killer had gunned down John Lennon, the whole world would have known. Such swift expert assassinations carry their own individual hallmark. It would have been obvious what had happened, and with Lennon's history of War Is Over, peace and love political activity, there would have been [an in-depth investigation]." "But if you program an amateur to do the job, a so-called 'nut', very few questions are asked."
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > I read Lennon's son Sean thinks it was a hit. I believe the CIA or some Orwellian group has been knocking off cats ince JFK, and a few years later MLK, and RFK. George Wallace is said to have believed he was a victim of a conspiracy.
                            > >
                            > > But the historical details of Lennon and Orwell are secondary to their descriptions of possible futures.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Tom
                            > > Tom, it is the rank ambitionists that I fear. They have little talent and operate on wild courage and false suppositians. It is not wrong to fear, but to operate from fear is to be terrorised. I think we all can smell threat. I have a lawyer friend whom I saw rudly threatned at a bar. He smiled and said if you are going to kill me come and try it,otherwise buy a round. That attitude is valuable and needed. Orwell wrote a Gullivers Travels of sociological possibilities. I do not remember how 1984 ends, I do not remember if it made any sense beyond the exposure of a control mechanism that seemed probable. I confuse it with "Lord of the flies" "Ape and essence" , "Blade runner" , "Seven pillars of Wisdom" and of course "The Dune trilogy" . It is a continuum of social science fiction and except for "Senen Pillars" is no more than fiction ,theory. Add Shogun and you have a foretold version of the present. It is better those books were written at least we have language to describe the obstacles we now face. Tsunami comes to mind , I bought rad suits better than twenty years ago. Good Soviet equiptment, Ivan knew of nuclear risk. So if you need to weigh some guilt,waste your time. Bill
                            > > ----- Original Message -----
                            > > From: William
                            > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                            > > Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2011 3:43 PM
                            > > Subject: [existlist] Future
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Tom, I have often pondered Lennons "Imagine' and find it perplexing . It calls for general ownership of all things and that sounds like anarchy to me. You get up in the morning and someone has taken your underwhere. I mean do you stay home and praise the takers integrity? Lennon striking out against metaphysical impossibilities is just fine,no heaven ,no hell but competition is the drive wheel of evolution and I doubt stasis would have suited John for any amount of time. I remember Lennons interview with Al Capp, the cartoonist. They hated each other and came off as raging egoists. I then realised they were entertainers who do their craft for money as long as it sells. "A brotherhood of man" is possible if there is plenty but now we breed ourselves past poverty and demand justice. I know Orwell and Lennon were highly frustrated men who could see no practical answeres to the inequalities confronting them. Orwells"more equil" animals are no different than Charley Sheens winners. A secure heroine supply kept Lennon at bay until an even madder fool gunned him.
                            > > Hinkley tried five times to shoot Reagan and I was told Reagan wanted Lennon dead. The more equil animals just want to be king of the hill. This universe operates that way and we are locked in until we are taken out. Yet in the end we all have Nothing. Bill
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >
                            >





                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Mary
                            Tom, Any statement which lacks fundamental concepts and principles, and posits non-resolvability of problems. Mary
                            Message 13 of 16 , Mar 28, 2011
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Tom,

                              Any statement which lacks fundamental concepts and principles, and posits non-resolvability of problems.

                              Mary

                              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Mary
                              >
                              > What postmodern capitulations are you referring to?
                              > Tom
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: Mary
                              > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2011 7:32 PM
                              > Subject: [existlist] Re: Future
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Tom,
                              >
                              > Lennon's songbook is far more existentialist than the several postmodern capitulations posted here recently.
                              >
                              > Mary
                            • tom
                              Mary Which lennon songs do you see as examples of these two categories, if I might ask? Tom ... From: Mary To: existlist@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March
                              Message 14 of 16 , Mar 28, 2011
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Mary
                                Which lennon songs do you see as examples of these two categories, if I might ask?
                                Tom
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: Mary
                                To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 12:20 PM
                                Subject: [existlist] Re: Future



                                Tom,

                                Any statement which lacks fundamental concepts and principles, and posits non-resolvability of problems.

                                Mary

                                --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Mary
                                >
                                > What postmodern capitulations are you referring to?
                                > Tom
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: Mary
                                > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2011 7:32 PM
                                > Subject: [existlist] Re: Future
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Tom,
                                >
                                > Lennon's songbook is far more existentialist than the several postmodern capitulations posted here recently.
                                >
                                > Mary





                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Mary
                                Tom, I ve already said Lennon s songs are existentialist rather than postmodern, of which my definition is admittedly narrow. You often mention his work, so I
                                Message 15 of 16 , Mar 28, 2011
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Tom,

                                  I've already said Lennon's songs are existentialist rather than postmodern, of which my definition is admittedly narrow. You often mention his work, so I assume you do this in philosophical mode. It was Bill who doubted his existential import, not me, suggesting socialism is anarchy and Irvin who said Lennon didn't actually want to share his wealth. Lennon would probably have disagreed. I'm about to begin an enormous biography about him and hope to find out for myself. One preview said that while in Hamburg he hung out with a group of young artists who called themselves "exies."

                                  My new goal is not to repeat myself or cover old ground, but I sincerely hope to advance some recent arguments. Please pardon me in advance if I don't respond to each of your posts. It's difficult to contribute new insights without taking time to think, and Herman's recent post requires this.

                                  Peace,
                                  Mary

                                  --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Mary
                                  > Which lennon songs do you see as examples of these two categories, if I might ask?
                                  > Tom
                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > From: Mary
                                  > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 12:20 PM
                                  > Subject: [existlist] Re: Future
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Tom,
                                  >
                                  > Any statement which lacks fundamental concepts and principles, and posits non-resolvability of problems.
                                  >
                                  > Mary
                                  >
                                  > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Mary
                                  > >
                                  > > What postmodern capitulations are you referring to?
                                  > > Tom
                                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > > From: Mary
                                  > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2011 7:32 PM
                                  > > Subject: [existlist] Re: Future
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Tom,
                                  > >
                                  > > Lennon's songbook is far more existentialist than the several postmodern capitulations posted here recently.
                                  > >
                                  > > Mary
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                • Herman
                                  Hi Tom, I often wonder whether it is appropriate to quote Orwell when discussing history or politics. The guy wrote fiction. Whether he was a prophet or not
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Apr 2, 2011
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Hi Tom,

                                    I often wonder whether it is appropriate to quote Orwell when discussing
                                    history or politics. The guy wrote fiction. Whether he was a prophet or not
                                    should be determined by whether he was intending to correctly predict how
                                    the world would be, and whether he was consistently successful in that, not
                                    by whether we fear his fiction becoming reality.

                                    My two bits only.

                                    Cheers

                                    Herman


                                    On 28 March 2011 18:19, tom <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:

                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Bill
                                    >
                                    > I have heard of, but not read the other books to which you refer. Nineteen
                                    > eighty four was assigned to my English class in 11the grade. I read it again
                                    > in 1984, and a third time in 2002. Terms like "Orwellian" "newspeak" "big
                                    > brother" etc. have become part of our vocabulary. Interestingly, some crtics
                                    > point out the similarity between the fictional Winston Smith working in the
                                    > Ministry of Truth and Orwell working for BBC during ww2. Orwell was a great
                                    > prophet As 1984 was being written, the CIA was being set up etc. Orwell's
                                    > reference to how nations could be spun by propagandist newsmedia into good
                                    > or bad, and back again has been noticable in the post Orwell years. A great
                                    > case in point is how the same Afghanistan groups called "freedom fighters"
                                    > in the 80s were reframed into "terrorists" in this century..During his
                                    > presidency, Reagan met with the Taliban, and described them as of a moral
                                    > caliber similar to our founding fathers. Reagan also took Iraq off the
                                    > terrorist nation list, and twice sent Rumsfeld over to meet with Saddam and
                                    > shake his hand. Right wing pundits like Rush and Hannity call themselves
                                    > Reagan Republicans, but have painted totally oppposite pictures of the
                                    > Taliban and Saddam. Dylan's "God on our side" in the early 60s depicted the
                                    > spinning of bad guys into good guys etc in the line "Though they murdered
                                    > sex million in their ovens they fried, the Germans now too have god on their
                                    > side."
                                    >
                                    > Peace
                                    > Tom
                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > From: William
                                    > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2011 9:43 PM
                                    > Subject: [existlist] Re: Future
                                    >
                                    > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@...> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Tom,
                                    > >
                                    > > Lennon's songbook is far more existentialist than the several postmodern
                                    > capitulations posted here recently.
                                    > >
                                    > > Mary
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@> wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Bill
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Bresler interviewed Arthur O'Connor, the lieutenant who was commanding
                                    > officer of the 20th Precinct of the New York Police that dealt with John
                                    > Lennon's murder. He quotes O'Connor as saying, "As far as you are trying to
                                    > build up some kind of conspiracy, I would support you in that line. Like I
                                    > said originally over the phone, if the [assassin] wanted to get away with
                                    > it, he could have got away with it. There was the subway right on the corner
                                    > and no one around to stop him." Instead, once the assassin had accomplished
                                    > his task, he calmly sat reading Catcher In The Rye and waited for the police
                                    > to come.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > "Why one method rather than the other, the amateur as against the
                                    > professional? Because that way you avoid any awkward questions, and everyone
                                    > seems to fall for it anyway. If a professional killer had gunned down John
                                    > Lennon, the whole world would have known. Such swift expert assassinations
                                    > carry their own individual hallmark. It would have been obvious what had
                                    > happened, and with Lennon's history of War Is Over, peace and love political
                                    > activity, there would have been [an in-depth investigation]." "But if you
                                    > program an amateur to do the job, a so-called 'nut', very few questions are
                                    > asked."
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > I read Lennon's son Sean thinks it was a hit. I believe the CIA or some
                                    > Orwellian group has been knocking off cats ince JFK, and a few years later
                                    > MLK, and RFK. George Wallace is said to have believed he was a victim of a
                                    > conspiracy.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > But the historical details of Lennon and Orwell are secondary to their
                                    > descriptions of possible futures.
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Tom
                                    > > > Tom, it is the rank ambitionists that I fear. They have little talent
                                    > and operate on wild courage and false suppositians. It is not wrong to fear,
                                    > but to operate from fear is to be terrorised. I think we all can smell
                                    > threat. I have a lawyer friend whom I saw rudly threatned at a bar. He
                                    > smiled and said if you are going to kill me come and try it,otherwise buy a
                                    > round. That attitude is valuable and needed. Orwell wrote a Gullivers
                                    > Travels of sociological possibilities. I do not remember how 1984 ends, I do
                                    > not remember if it made any sense beyond the exposure of a control mechanism
                                    > that seemed probable. I confuse it with "Lord of the flies" "Ape and
                                    > essence" , "Blade runner" , "Seven pillars of Wisdom" and of course "The
                                    > Dune trilogy" . It is a continuum of social science fiction and except for
                                    > "Senen Pillars" is no more than fiction ,theory. Add Shogun and you have a
                                    > foretold version of the present. It is better those books were written at
                                    > least we have language to describe the obstacles we now face. Tsunami comes
                                    > to mind , I bought rad suits better than twenty years ago. Good Soviet
                                    > equiptment, Ivan knew of nuclear risk. So if you need to weigh some
                                    > guilt,waste your time. Bill
                                    > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > > > From: William
                                    > > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > > Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2011 3:43 PM
                                    > > > Subject: [existlist] Future
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Tom, I have often pondered Lennons "Imagine' and find it perplexing .
                                    > It calls for general ownership of all things and that sounds like anarchy to
                                    > me. You get up in the morning and someone has taken your underwhere. I mean
                                    > do you stay home and praise the takers integrity? Lennon striking out
                                    > against metaphysical impossibilities is just fine,no heaven ,no hell but
                                    > competition is the drive wheel of evolution and I doubt stasis would have
                                    > suited John for any amount of time. I remember Lennons interview with Al
                                    > Capp, the cartoonist. They hated each other and came off as raging egoists.
                                    > I then realised they were entertainers who do their craft for money as long
                                    > as it sells. "A brotherhood of man" is possible if there is plenty but now
                                    > we breed ourselves past poverty and demand justice. I know Orwell and Lennon
                                    > were highly frustrated men who could see no practical answeres to the
                                    > inequalities confronting them. Orwells"more equil" animals are no different
                                    > than Charley Sheens winners. A secure heroine supply kept Lennon at bay
                                    > until an even madder fool gunned him.
                                    > > > Hinkley tried five times to shoot Reagan and I was told Reagan wanted
                                    > Lennon dead. The more equil animals just want to be king of the hill. This
                                    > universe operates that way and we are locked in until we are taken out. Yet
                                    > in the end we all have Nothing. Bill
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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