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Re: Toward Truth

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  • Mary
    My apologies, as this was probably too idealistic for some, and not philosophical enough for others. I don t how to assist violent democratic movements without
    Message 1 of 9 , Mar 2, 2011
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      My apologies, as this was probably too idealistic for some, and not philosophical enough for others. I don't how to assist violent democratic movements without adding further violence.

      Mary

      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@...> wrote:
      >
      > Bill,
      >
      > Thanks for your honesty. I also say `no' for other reasons. The modern strategy of arming madmen and the exploited, thereby ensuring civil war, provisional occupation, or profit, is proving to be the senseless evil it always was. Though not completely grasping the function of evil in history, I reject the false inevitability of perpetual war and am convinced that even interpersonal and community conflicts are directly related to this false necessity. We should always ally with democratic movements lest hypocrisy be exposed and further exploited by our enemies. If we fake it until we make it, who knows? State, as government of individuals might not perish from the earth.
      >
      > Mary
      >
    • tom
      Mary At a certain point in history, or some would say at the beginning of history, warfare and conquest and empire began to emerge.I have heard some theories
      Message 2 of 9 , Mar 2, 2011
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        Mary

        At a certain point in history, or some would say at the beginning of history, warfare and conquest and empire began to emerge.I have heard some theories that around the time towns were getting civilized enough to store food for winter and as a safety net against famines, nomadic hunting tribes began to see the possibility that if they could conquer a townstate with a warehouse of food, they could take off a month or so from hunting and drink, enjoy the women of the town etc uintil food in warehouse ran out, sorta like an outlaw biker weekend. That was pretty much the Attila the Hun scenario I guess. Of course, empires started developing and things got more sophisticated. But I have heard theory that history and war developed around same time, because the stage was reached where speciaized jobs like soldier and scribe were evolving. History coincided with a shifting from a matriarchal subsistence pastoral existence to patriarchal empire building, and the Goddess of eternity replaced by father time. The old testament was marked by the newly patriarchal Jews fighting pagans around them. Once these things started, tribes that did not align themselves with bigger nations or empires or got killed, enslaved, or at least conquered. The industrial revolution accelerated warlike tendencies as the need for raw materials and better ships led European nations all around the world to attain needed materials. Einstein said our technology has exceeded our humanity. I agree.

        I signed a petition a week or so ago at Change.org to not cut the $40,000,000 budget of a dept of peace. 40 million to US government spending almost 800 billion a year on war would be like 40 cents to u or me. Switzerland as a small country in the middle of Europe has not been involvede in any wars for many years. The US across th4e sea and so mucfh bigger I believe could have done the same. Give peace a chance

        Peace
        Tom
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Mary
        To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2011 12:00 PM
        Subject: [existlist] Toward Truth



        Bill,

        Thanks for your honesty. I also say `no' for other reasons. The modern strategy of arming madmen and the exploited, thereby ensuring civil war, provisional occupation, or profit, is proving to be the senseless evil it always was. Though not completely grasping the function of evil in history, I reject the false inevitability of perpetual war and am convinced that even interpersonal and community conflicts are directly related to this false necessity. We should always ally with democratic movements lest hypocrisy be exposed and further exploited by our enemies. If we fake it until we make it, who knows? State, as government of individuals might not perish from the earth.

        Mary





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • eupraxis@aol.com
        Then add further violence. Wil ... From: Mary To: existlist Sent: Wed, Mar 2, 2011 12:52 pm Subject:
        Message 3 of 9 , Mar 2, 2011
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          Then add further violence.

          Wil


          -----Original Message-----
          From: Mary <josephson45r@...>
          To: existlist <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Wed, Mar 2, 2011 12:52 pm
          Subject: [existlist] Re: Toward Truth





          My apologies, as this was probably too idealistic for some, and not philosophical enough for others. I don't how to assist violent democratic movements without adding further violence.

          Mary

          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@...> wrote:
          >
          > Bill,
          >
          > Thanks for your honesty. I also say `no' for other reasons. The modern strategy of arming madmen and the exploited, thereby ensuring civil war, provisional occupation, or profit, is proving to be the senseless evil it always was. Though not completely grasping the function of evil in history, I reject the false inevitability of perpetual war and am convinced that even interpersonal and community conflicts are directly related to this false necessity. We should always ally with democratic movements lest hypocrisy be exposed and further exploited by our enemies. If we fake it until we make it, who knows? State, as government of individuals might not perish from the earth.
          >
          > Mary
          >









          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • tom
          Wil and Mary I see several possible drawbacks to the US assisting violent democratic movements. Number one is the historical tendencies for nations making up
          Message 4 of 9 , Mar 2, 2011
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            Wil and Mary

            I see several possible drawbacks to the US assisting violent democratic movements. Number one is the historical tendencies for nations making up idealistic reasons to a attack and invade weaker nations, and even if their intentions were pure, the presence of a superpower interfering in the internal squables of a 3rd world country tends to cast suspicion on the rebels as being a front for the superpower. I am a great admirer of Switzerland for living in peace and neutrality as other much more powerful and distant nations like the US have increasingly been involved in wars around the world. I still greatly respect the ideas of Washington, Jefferson, and Madisan as to as much as possible staying clear of entangling alliances. I certainly felt good about my signing the petition at change.org to not cut off the 40 million a year funding of a dept of peace. Hundreds of billions are spent each year as creative minds come up with more lethal ways to kill people. I think spending 40 million a year to support creatiive minds come up with ways to remain neutral and at piece would be a much better investment. All we are saying is give peace a chance.

            Peace
            Tom
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: eupraxis@...
            To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2011 1:23 PM
            Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Toward Truth



            Then add further violence.

            Wil


            -----Original Message-----
            From: Mary <josephson45r@...>
            To: existlist <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Wed, Mar 2, 2011 12:52 pm
            Subject: [existlist] Re: Toward Truth

            My apologies, as this was probably too idealistic for some, and not philosophical enough for others. I don't how to assist violent democratic movements without adding further violence.

            Mary

            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@...> wrote:
            >
            > Bill,
            >
            > Thanks for your honesty. I also say `no' for other reasons. The modern strategy of arming madmen and the exploited, thereby ensuring civil war, provisional occupation, or profit, is proving to be the senseless evil it always was. Though not completely grasping the function of evil in history, I reject the false inevitability of perpetual war and am convinced that even interpersonal and community conflicts are directly related to this false necessity. We should always ally with democratic movements lest hypocrisy be exposed and further exploited by our enemies. If we fake it until we make it, who knows? State, as government of individuals might not perish from the earth.
            >
            > Mary
            >

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Mary
            Wil, Unfortunately, perpetrators of violence, systemic or otherwise, will continue unless met with equal force. Democratic principles are being replaced with
            Message 5 of 9 , Mar 2, 2011
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              Wil,

              Unfortunately, perpetrators of violence, systemic or otherwise, will continue unless met with equal force. Democratic principles are being replaced with economic 'pragmatism' at a frightening pace both here and abroad. A democratic movement across the region which weakens Western hegemony, Israeli intransigence, and Arab monarchies might guarantee a productive peace. I concede the necessity of defensive violence but really crave a philosophical understanding of how evil and violence wrestle towards their `end.'

              Mary


              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote:
              >
              > Then add further violence.
              >
              > Wil
              >
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Mary <josephson45r@...>
              > To: existlist <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Wed, Mar 2, 2011 12:52 pm
              > Subject: [existlist] Re: Toward Truth
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > My apologies, as this was probably too idealistic for some, and not philosophical enough for others. I don't how to assist violent democratic movements without adding further violence.
              >
              > Mary
              >
              > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Bill,
              > >
              > > Thanks for your honesty. I also say `no' for other reasons. The modern strategy of arming madmen and the exploited, thereby ensuring civil war, provisional occupation, or profit, is proving to be the senseless evil it always was. Though not completely grasping the function of evil in history, I reject the false inevitability of perpetual war and am convinced that even interpersonal and community conflicts are directly related to this false necessity. We should always ally with democratic movements lest hypocrisy be exposed and further exploited by our enemies. If we fake it until we make it, who knows? State, as government of individuals might not perish from the earth.
              > >
              > > Mary
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • eupraxis@aol.com
              Mary, I rather cynically doubt that our own problems will be solved (I mean the total corporatization of US society) democratically , or by voting for
              Message 6 of 9 , Mar 2, 2011
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                Mary,

                I rather cynically doubt that our own problems will be solved (I mean the total corporatization of US society) "democratically", or by voting for candidates from either party. I just doubt it. What that means is not clear.

                I was being glib earlier, of course, but as far as violence goes, how less violent is it to throw a few million families out of their homes, extrend stop loss for countless troops for wars without purpose, eavesdrop on all communications, stamp out unions by fiat, give away the national wealth to banks and Wall Street and then cut back essential services to that nation, etc.?

                Wil






                -----Original Message-----
                From: Mary <josephson45r@...>
                To: existlist <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Wed, Mar 2, 2011 3:05 pm
                Subject: [existlist] Re: Toward Truth





                Wil,

                Unfortunately, perpetrators of violence, systemic or otherwise, will continue unless met with equal force. Democratic principles are being replaced with economic 'pragmatism' at a frightening pace both here and abroad. A democratic movement across the region which weakens Western hegemony, Israeli intransigence, and Arab monarchies might guarantee a productive peace. I concede the necessity of defensive violence but really crave a philosophical understanding of how evil and violence wrestle towards their `end.'

                Mary

                --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote:
                >
                > Then add further violence.
                >
                > Wil
                >
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Mary <josephson45r@...>
                > To: existlist <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Wed, Mar 2, 2011 12:52 pm
                > Subject: [existlist] Re: Toward Truth
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > My apologies, as this was probably too idealistic for some, and not philosophical enough for others. I don't how to assist violent democratic movements without adding further violence.
                >
                > Mary
                >
                > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Bill,
                > >
                > > Thanks for your honesty. I also say `no' for other reasons. The modern strategy of arming madmen and the exploited, thereby ensuring civil war, provisional occupation, or profit, is proving to be the senseless evil it always was. Though not completely grasping the function of evil in history, I reject the false inevitability of perpetual war and am convinced that even interpersonal and community conflicts are directly related to this false necessity. We should always ally with democratic movements lest hypocrisy be exposed and further exploited by our enemies. If we fake it until we make it, who knows? State, as government of individuals might not perish from the earth.
                > >
                > > Mary
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >









                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Mary
                Wil, I consider these forms of violence systemic and require equal force. I ve also said the two party system is a farce. Mary
                Message 7 of 9 , Mar 2, 2011
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                  Wil,

                  I consider these forms of violence systemic and require equal force. I've also said the two party system is a farce.

                  Mary

                  --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote:
                  >
                  > Mary,
                  >
                  > I rather cynically doubt that our own problems will be solved (I mean the total corporatization of US society) "democratically", or by voting for candidates from either party. I just doubt it. What that means is not clear.
                  >
                  > I was being glib earlier, of course, but as far as violence goes, how less violent is it to throw a few million families out of their homes, extrend stop loss for countless troops for wars without purpose, eavesdrop on all communications, stamp out unions by fiat, give away the national wealth to banks and Wall Street and then cut back essential services to that nation, etc.?
                  >
                  > Wil
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: Mary <josephson45r@...>
                  > To: existlist <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Wed, Mar 2, 2011 3:05 pm
                  > Subject: [existlist] Re: Toward Truth
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Wil,
                  >
                  > Unfortunately, perpetrators of violence, systemic or otherwise, will continue unless met with equal force. Democratic principles are being replaced with economic 'pragmatism' at a frightening pace both here and abroad. A democratic movement across the region which weakens Western hegemony, Israeli intransigence, and Arab monarchies might guarantee a productive peace. I concede the necessity of defensive violence but really crave a philosophical understanding of how evil and violence wrestle towards their `end.'
                  >
                  > Mary
                  >
                  > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@ wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Then add further violence.
                  > >
                  > > Wil
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > From: Mary <josephson45r@>
                  > > To: existlist <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                  > > Sent: Wed, Mar 2, 2011 12:52 pm
                  > > Subject: [existlist] Re: Toward Truth
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > My apologies, as this was probably too idealistic for some, and not philosophical enough for others. I don't how to assist violent democratic movements without adding further violence.
                  > >
                  > > Mary
                  > >
                  > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Bill,
                  > > >
                  > > > Thanks for your honesty. I also say `no' for other reasons. The modern strategy of arming madmen and the exploited, thereby ensuring civil war, provisional occupation, or profit, is proving to be the senseless evil it always was. Though not completely grasping the function of evil in history, I reject the false inevitability of perpetual war and am convinced that even interpersonal and community conflicts are directly related to this false necessity. We should always ally with democratic movements lest hypocrisy be exposed and further exploited by our enemies. If we fake it until we make it, who knows? State, as government of individuals might not perish from the earth.
                  > > >
                  > > > Mary
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • eupraxis@aol.com
                  Mary, I wasn t arguing with you. I was, maybe, commiserating. Wil ... From: Mary To: existlist Sent: Wed,
                  Message 8 of 9 , Mar 2, 2011
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                    Mary,

                    I wasn't arguing with you. I was, maybe, commiserating.

                    Wil





                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Mary <josephson45r@...>
                    To: existlist <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Wed, Mar 2, 2011 3:28 pm
                    Subject: [existlist] Re: Toward Truth





                    Wil,

                    I consider these forms of violence systemic and require equal force. I've also said the two party system is a farce.

                    Mary

                    --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote:
                    >
                    > Mary,
                    >
                    > I rather cynically doubt that our own problems will be solved (I mean the total corporatization of US society) "democratically", or by voting for candidates from either party. I just doubt it. What that means is not clear.
                    >
                    > I was being glib earlier, of course, but as far as violence goes, how less violent is it to throw a few million families out of their homes, extrend stop loss for countless troops for wars without purpose, eavesdrop on all communications, stamp out unions by fiat, give away the national wealth to banks and Wall Street and then cut back essential services to that nation, etc.?
                    >
                    > Wil
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: Mary <josephson45r@...>
                    > To: existlist <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Wed, Mar 2, 2011 3:05 pm
                    > Subject: [existlist] Re: Toward Truth
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Wil,
                    >
                    > Unfortunately, perpetrators of violence, systemic or otherwise, will continue unless met with equal force. Democratic principles are being replaced with economic 'pragmatism' at a frightening pace both here and abroad. A democratic movement across the region which weakens Western hegemony, Israeli intransigence, and Arab monarchies might guarantee a productive peace. I concede the necessity of defensive violence but really crave a philosophical understanding of how evil and violence wrestle towards their `end.'
                    >
                    > Mary
                    >
                    > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@ wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Then add further violence.
                    > >
                    > > Wil
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > From: Mary <josephson45r@>
                    > > To: existlist <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                    > > Sent: Wed, Mar 2, 2011 12:52 pm
                    > > Subject: [existlist] Re: Toward Truth
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > My apologies, as this was probably too idealistic for some, and not philosophical enough for others. I don't how to assist violent democratic movements without adding further violence.
                    > >
                    > > Mary
                    > >
                    > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Bill,
                    > > >
                    > > > Thanks for your honesty. I also say `no' for other reasons. The modern strategy of arming madmen and the exploited, thereby ensuring civil war, provisional occupation, or profit, is proving to be the senseless evil it always was. Though not completely grasping the function of evil in history, I reject the false inevitability of perpetual war and am convinced that even interpersonal and community conflicts are directly related to this false necessity. We should always ally with democratic movements lest hypocrisy be exposed and further exploited by our enemies. If we fake it until we make it, who knows? State, as government of individuals might not perish from the earth.
                    > > >
                    > > > Mary
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >









                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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