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[existlist] Police state

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  • tom
    As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is
    Message 1 of 9 , Mar 1, 2011
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      As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware of change in the air - however slight - lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness.
      Justice William O. Douglas quotes:
      Since when have we Americans been expected to bow submissively to authority and speak with awe and reverence to those who represent us?
      Justice William O. Douglas quotes:
      The right to be let alone is indeed the beginning of all freedom.
      Justice William O. Douglas quotes:
      It is better, so the Fourth Amendment teaches us, that the guilty sometimes go free than the citizens be subject to easy arrest.
      Justice William O. Douglas quotes:
      Big Brother in the form of an increasingly powerful government and in an increasingly powerful private sector will pile the records high with reasons why privacy should give way to national security, to law and order, to efficiency of operation, to scientific advancement and the like.
      Justice William O. Douglas quotes:
      The privacy and dignity of our citizens [are] being whittled away by sometimes imperceptible steps. Taken individually, each step may be of little consequence. But when viewed as a whole, there begins to emerge a society quite unlike any we have seen -- a society in which government may intrude into the secret regions of a [person's] life.



      I believe the self serving growth of the police state just like the self serving growth of the military industrial complex is something against which both liberals and libertarians can unite. Justice Douglas as well as George Orwell would be described as liberals just as Thomas Jefferson and Ron Paul as libertarians.Despite very great differences as to the ideal economic system, all saw or see the great dangers from the unrestrained growth of big brother. It is interesting to me that Jim perceives the duplicity of big brother military industrial complex in the invasion and occupation of Iraq, but refuses to recognize the other arm of big brother in the police state. I see them as the two big, muscular arms of a guy that makes King Kong look like a wimp.


      Peace and freedom
      Tom


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Mary
      Tom, I refer you to an article revealing how libertarians and neo-conservatives are funded and directed by the same entity. Please note in the article how both
      Message 2 of 9 , Mar 5, 2011
      • 0 Attachment
        Tom,

        I refer you to an article revealing how libertarians and neo-conservatives are funded and directed by the same entity. Please note in the article how both the prison industry and this corporation, as part of an even larger lobbying cohort, crafts legislation for multiple states. Many of the issues about which you are passionate unfortunately dovetail with interests you might consider amoral. As has become evident in our state alone, these people are not vested in compromise but an action plan having nothing to do with fairness or freedom, and everything to do with profit. As I've become suspicious of liberals who masquerade as democrats, I beseech you to mistrust conservatives who front as libertarians. They merely pay lip service to the principles we cherish and laugh at us on the way to their banks. Philosophy subsumes religion, politics, and profit.

        http://www.expressmilwaukee.com/article-14041-whos-creating-walkers-playbook-.html

        Peace,
        Mary


        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
        >
        > As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware of change in the air - however slight - lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness.
        > Justice William O. Douglas quotes:
        > Since when have we Americans been expected to bow submissively to authority and speak with awe and reverence to those who represent us?
        > Justice William O. Douglas quotes:
        > The right to be let alone is indeed the beginning of all freedom.
        > Justice William O. Douglas quotes:
        > It is better, so the Fourth Amendment teaches us, that the guilty sometimes go free than the citizens be subject to easy arrest.
        > Justice William O. Douglas quotes:
        > Big Brother in the form of an increasingly powerful government and in an increasingly powerful private sector will pile the records high with reasons why privacy should give way to national security, to law and order, to efficiency of operation, to scientific advancement and the like.
        > Justice William O. Douglas quotes:
        > The privacy and dignity of our citizens [are] being whittled away by sometimes imperceptible steps. Taken individually, each step may be of little consequence. But when viewed as a whole, there begins to emerge a society quite unlike any we have seen -- a society in which government may intrude into the secret regions of a [person's] life.
        >
        >
        >
        > I believe the self serving growth of the police state just like the self serving growth of the military industrial complex is something against which both liberals and libertarians can unite. Justice Douglas as well as George Orwell would be described as liberals just as Thomas Jefferson and Ron Paul as libertarians.Despite very great differences as to the ideal economic system, all saw or see the great dangers from the unrestrained growth of big brother. It is interesting to me that Jim perceives the duplicity of big brother military industrial complex in the invasion and occupation of Iraq, but refuses to recognize the other arm of big brother in the police state. I see them as the two big, muscular arms of a guy that makes King Kong look like a wimp.
        >
        >
        > Peace and freedom
        > Tom
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • tom
        Mary I will check it out soon. Im on my way to yoga in a minute. There is no question that the Tea Party has two factions. One is a Fox News Seane Hannity,
        Message 3 of 9 , Mar 5, 2011
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          Mary

          I will check it out soon. Im on my way to yoga in a minute. There is no question that the Tea Party has two factions. One is a Fox News Seane Hannity, Rush supported group, and the other and maybe slightly smaller the Ron Paul libertarins. Libertarians desire to keep all government as small as possible;whereas the Fox type exlude police state and military from their desire to cut government. Neocons were originally liberals who went to the right on foreign policy and also against counterculture at home in 60s and 70s. Many were moderately liberal on entitlement spending as in Bush prescription drug bill, and no child left behind.

          Peace
          Tom
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Mary
          To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2011 8:29 AM
          Subject: [existlist] Re: Police state



          Tom,

          I refer you to an article revealing how libertarians and neo-conservatives are funded and directed by the same entity. Please note in the article how both the prison industry and this corporation, as part of an even larger lobbying cohort, crafts legislation for multiple states. Many of the issues about which you are passionate unfortunately dovetail with interests you might consider amoral. As has become evident in our state alone, these people are not vested in compromise but an action plan having nothing to do with fairness or freedom, and everything to do with profit. As I've become suspicious of liberals who masquerade as democrats, I beseech you to mistrust conservatives who front as libertarians. They merely pay lip service to the principles we cherish and laugh at us on the way to their banks. Philosophy subsumes religion, politics, and profit.

          http://www.expressmilwaukee.com/article-14041-whos-creating-walkers-playbook-.html

          Peace,
          Mary

          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
          >
          > As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware of change in the air - however slight - lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness.
          > Justice William O. Douglas quotes:
          > Since when have we Americans been expected to bow submissively to authority and speak with awe and reverence to those who represent us?
          > Justice William O. Douglas quotes:
          > The right to be let alone is indeed the beginning of all freedom.
          > Justice William O. Douglas quotes:
          > It is better, so the Fourth Amendment teaches us, that the guilty sometimes go free than the citizens be subject to easy arrest.
          > Justice William O. Douglas quotes:
          > Big Brother in the form of an increasingly powerful government and in an increasingly powerful private sector will pile the records high with reasons why privacy should give way to national security, to law and order, to efficiency of operation, to scientific advancement and the like.
          > Justice William O. Douglas quotes:
          > The privacy and dignity of our citizens [are] being whittled away by sometimes imperceptible steps. Taken individually, each step may be of little consequence. But when viewed as a whole, there begins to emerge a society quite unlike any we have seen -- a society in which government may intrude into the secret regions of a [person's] life.
          >
          >
          >
          > I believe the self serving growth of the police state just like the self serving growth of the military industrial complex is something against which both liberals and libertarians can unite. Justice Douglas as well as George Orwell would be described as liberals just as Thomas Jefferson and Ron Paul as libertarians.Despite very great differences as to the ideal economic system, all saw or see the great dangers from the unrestrained growth of big brother. It is interesting to me that Jim perceives the duplicity of big brother military industrial complex in the invasion and occupation of Iraq, but refuses to recognize the other arm of big brother in the police state. I see them as the two big, muscular arms of a guy that makes King Kong look like a wimp.
          >
          >
          > Peace and freedom
          > Tom
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • eupraxis@aol.com
          Not much of a difference. ... From: tom To: existlist Sent: Sat, Mar 5, 2011 9:42 am Subject: Re:
          Message 4 of 9 , Mar 5, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            Not much of a difference.








            -----Original Message-----
            From: tom <tsmith17_midsouth1@...>
            To: existlist <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Sat, Mar 5, 2011 9:42 am
            Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Police state





            Mary

            I will check it out soon. Im on my way to yoga in a minute. There is no question that the Tea Party has two factions. One is a Fox News Seane Hannity, Rush supported group, and the other and maybe slightly smaller the Ron Paul libertarins. Libertarians desire to keep all government as small as possible;whereas the Fox type exlude police state and military from their desire to cut government. Neocons were originally liberals who went to the right on foreign policy and also against counterculture at home in 60s and 70s. Many were moderately liberal on entitlement spending as in Bush prescription drug bill, and no child left behind.

            Peace
            Tom
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Mary
            To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2011 8:29 AM
            Subject: [existlist] Re: Police state

            Tom,

            I refer you to an article revealing how libertarians and neo-conservatives are funded and directed by the same entity. Please note in the article how both the prison industry and this corporation, as part of an even larger lobbying cohort, crafts legislation for multiple states. Many of the issues about which you are passionate unfortunately dovetail with interests you might consider amoral. As has become evident in our state alone, these people are not vested in compromise but an action plan having nothing to do with fairness or freedom, and everything to do with profit. As I've become suspicious of liberals who masquerade as democrats, I beseech you to mistrust conservatives who front as libertarians. They merely pay lip service to the principles we cherish and laugh at us on the way to their banks. Philosophy subsumes religion, politics, and profit.

            http://www.expressmilwaukee.com/article-14041-whos-creating-walkers-playbook-.html

            Peace,
            Mary

            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
            >
            > As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware of change in the air - however slight - lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness.
            > Justice William O. Douglas quotes:
            > Since when have we Americans been expected to bow submissively to authority and speak with awe and reverence to those who represent us?
            > Justice William O. Douglas quotes:
            > The right to be let alone is indeed the beginning of all freedom.
            > Justice William O. Douglas quotes:
            > It is better, so the Fourth Amendment teaches us, that the guilty sometimes go free than the citizens be subject to easy arrest.
            > Justice William O. Douglas quotes:
            > Big Brother in the form of an increasingly powerful government and in an increasingly powerful private sector will pile the records high with reasons why privacy should give way to national security, to law and order, to efficiency of operation, to scientific advancement and the like.
            > Justice William O. Douglas quotes:
            > The privacy and dignity of our citizens [are] being whittled away by sometimes imperceptible steps. Taken individually, each step may be of little consequence. But when viewed as a whole, there begins to emerge a society quite unlike any we have seen -- a society in which government may intrude into the secret regions of a [person's] life.
            >
            >
            >
            > I believe the self serving growth of the police state just like the self serving growth of the military industrial complex is something against which both liberals and libertarians can unite. Justice Douglas as well as George Orwell would be described as liberals just as Thomas Jefferson and Ron Paul as libertarians.Despite very great differences as to the ideal economic system, all saw or see the great dangers from the unrestrained growth of big brother. It is interesting to me that Jim perceives the duplicity of big brother military industrial complex in the invasion and occupation of Iraq, but refuses to recognize the other arm of big brother in the police state. I see them as the two big, muscular arms of a guy that makes King Kong look like a wimp.
            >
            >
            > Peace and freedom
            > Tom
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Mary
            Wil, Yes, there really isn t much difference between any of them anymore. Even if I offered more in-depth articles to make my point, in your case I d only be
            Message 5 of 9 , Mar 5, 2011
            • 0 Attachment
              Wil,

              Yes, there really isn't much difference between any of them anymore. Even if I offered more in-depth articles to make my point, in your case I'd only be preaching to the choir.

              Mary

              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote:

              > Not much of a difference.

              > From: tom <tsmith17_midsouth1@...>

              > Mary

              > I will check it out soon. Im on my way to yoga in a minute. There is no question that the Tea Party has two factions. One is a Fox News Seane Hannity, Rush supported group, and the other and maybe slightly smaller the Ron Paul libertarins. Libertarians desire to keep all government as small as possible;whereas the Fox type exlude police state and military from their desire to cut government. Neocons were originally liberals who went to the right on foreign policy and also against counterculture at home in 60s and 70s. Many were moderately liberal on entitlement spending as in Bush prescription drug bill, and no child left behind.
              >
              > Peace
              > Tom
              > ----- Original Message -----

              > Tom,
              >
              > I refer you to an article revealing how libertarians and neo-conservatives are funded and directed by the same entity. Please note in the article how both the prison industry and this corporation, as part of an even larger lobbying cohort, crafts legislation for multiple states. Many of the issues about which you are passionate unfortunately dovetail with interests you might consider amoral. As has become evident in our state alone, these people are not vested in compromise but an action plan having nothing to do with fairness or freedom, and everything to do with profit. As I've become suspicious of liberals who masquerade as democrats, I beseech you to mistrust conservatives who front as libertarians. They merely pay lip service to the principles we cherish and laugh at us on the way to their banks. Philosophy subsumes religion, politics, and profit.
              >
              > http://www.expressmilwaukee.com/article-14041-whos-creating-walkers-playbook-.html
              >
              > Peace,
              > Mary
              >
              > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@> wrote:
              > >
              > > As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware of change in the air - however slight - lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness.
              > > Justice William O. Douglas quotes:
              > > Since when have we Americans been expected to bow submissively to authority and speak with awe and reverence to those who represent us?
              > > Justice William O. Douglas quotes:
              > > The right to be let alone is indeed the beginning of all freedom.
              > > Justice William O. Douglas quotes:
              > > It is better, so the Fourth Amendment teaches us, that the guilty sometimes go free than the citizens be subject to easy arrest.
              > > Justice William O. Douglas quotes:
              > > Big Brother in the form of an increasingly powerful government and in an increasingly powerful private sector will pile the records high with reasons why privacy should give way to national security, to law and order, to efficiency of operation, to scientific advancement and the like.
              > > Justice William O. Douglas quotes:
              > > The privacy and dignity of our citizens [are] being whittled away by sometimes imperceptible steps. Taken individually, each step may be of little consequence. But when viewed as a whole, there begins to emerge a society quite unlike any we have seen -- a society in which government may intrude into the secret regions of a [person's] life.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > I believe the self serving growth of the police state just like the self serving growth of the military industrial complex is something against which both liberals and libertarians can unite. Justice Douglas as well as George Orwell would be described as liberals just as Thomas Jefferson and Ron Paul as libertarians.Despite very great differences as to the ideal economic system, all saw or see the great dangers from the unrestrained growth of big brother. It is interesting to me that Jim perceives the duplicity of big brother military industrial complex in the invasion and occupation of Iraq, but refuses to recognize the other arm of big brother in the police state. I see them as the two big, muscular arms of a guy that makes King Kong look like a wimp.
              > >
              > >
              > > Peace and freedom
              > > Tom
              > >
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • tom
              Mary and Wil I read the article.It is no secret that libertarians tend to vote with conservative Repuiblicans if possible to reduce or at least to avoid
              Message 6 of 9 , Mar 5, 2011
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                Mary and Wil

                I read the article.It is no secret that libertarians tend to vote with conservative Repuiblicans if possible to reduce or at least to avoid expanding federal funding for entitlements,education, health etc. However, they also tend to ally themselves with liberal Democrats against perpetual war abroad and growing police state at home. Ron Paul voted against giving Bush authority to use force on Iraq when Hilary Clinton and Kerry were voting yes.Only a few congress people from either party were standing against it then. Wellstone, Democratic senator from Minesota was one, and some speculate his opposition to an Iraq invasion may have resulted in his plane crash. In his 08 primary, Ron Paul raised most of his money from small donors online. I threw in a few bucks, and later after he lost, threw in a few to Obama, but these types of contributions are not the kind you expect returns from. Of course, as someone with a very remote chance of being nominated, and elected, Paul obviously wouldnt get the smart money contributions. Smart money contributes to winners as in 60s and 70s Republican businessmen in Chicago contributed to and backed Daly because they kinew he was the guy who was gonna win. Certainly,in their history libertarians have consistently been anti military industrial complex and anti police state prison industrial complex to a degree and consistency far more than most Democrats.In the 80s as Reagan started the war on drugs, instead of railing against it, most Democratic officeholders sought to match or even outdo Reagan. As an example
                1. Drug warrior, at arms! In 1982, when John McCain was making his first run for political office, Joe Biden was building his credentials for a national bid. That was the year he proposed the office of "drug czar." Thus began a pattern: Whenever people were panicking about drug abuse, Biden would swoop in to assure them that their panic was justified. The crackdown on stuff that could be used as drug paraphernalia? The RAVE Act? Biden was there with a pen. Since 2002, he has softened only a little on the drug war, changing his mind about the crack/cocaine sentencing disparity two decades too late

                In 88 I was going to vote for Dukakis until I heard him answer a question on heroes young people could look up to, and he mentioned guys going around kicking in doors. I didn't vote in the 88 election.

                I consider myself much more of an independent than a libertarian, and have voted Democratic in all presidential elections since 92. I am attracted to lots of the libertarian ideas, but also respect the Open Society liberalism as advocated by George Soros. I have often thought I would have loved to see Soros and the late Harry Browne, libertarian have a debate. Both had records of practical success in the stock market, but Browne believed the ideal was a laise faire Milton Friedman assumption of the market as self correcting; whereas Soros sees that as what he calls market fundamentalism, a naive view of economics. Both had a record of being right much more than most us in practical market investments. In a book I read by Soros he said in the early 90s as he got going on opposing the drug war, the Democrats were at that time as bad as the Republicans. He found allies on this at places like the Cato Institute; but stated on many other things they had wide disagreements.

                As I understand there are two factions in the Tea Parties, the Fox supported neoncons and Ron Paul type libertarians. All want smaller government; but libertarians also want to reduce military industrial complex and police state. In 08 primary on one occasion Paul supporters threw snow balls at Seane Hannity. On reducing domestic federal spending both groups favor big cuts; but on interventionist wars abroad and expanding police powers and reduced individual liberty at home they differ widely.

                Peace
                Tom
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Mary
                To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2011 8:29 AM
                Subject: [existlist] Re: Police state



                Tom,

                I refer you to an article revealing how libertarians and neo-conservatives are funded and directed by the same entity. Please note in the article how both the prison industry and this corporation, as part of an even larger lobbying cohort, crafts legislation for multiple states. Many of the issues about which you are passionate unfortunately dovetail with interests you might consider amoral. As has become evident in our state alone, these people are not vested in compromise but an action plan having nothing to do with fairness or freedom, and everything to do with profit. As I've become suspicious of liberals who masquerade as democrats, I beseech you to mistrust conservatives who front as libertarians. They merely pay lip service to the principles we cherish and laugh at us on the way to their banks. Philosophy subsumes religion, politics, and profit.

                http://www.expressmilwaukee.com/article-14041-whos-creating-walkers-playbook-.html

                Peace,
                Mary

                --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
                >
                > As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware of change in the air - however slight - lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness.
                > Justice William O. Douglas quotes:
                > Since when have we Americans been expected to bow submissively to authority and speak with awe and reverence to those who represent us?
                > Justice William O. Douglas quotes:
                > The right to be let alone is indeed the beginning of all freedom.
                > Justice William O. Douglas quotes:
                > It is better, so the Fourth Amendment teaches us, that the guilty sometimes go free than the citizens be subject to easy arrest.
                > Justice William O. Douglas quotes:
                > Big Brother in the form of an increasingly powerful government and in an increasingly powerful private sector will pile the records high with reasons why privacy should give way to national security, to law and order, to efficiency of operation, to scientific advancement and the like.
                > Justice William O. Douglas quotes:
                > The privacy and dignity of our citizens [are] being whittled away by sometimes imperceptible steps. Taken individually, each step may be of little consequence. But when viewed as a whole, there begins to emerge a society quite unlike any we have seen -- a society in which government may intrude into the secret regions of a [person's] life.
                >
                >
                >
                > I believe the self serving growth of the police state just like the self serving growth of the military industrial complex is something against which both liberals and libertarians can unite. Justice Douglas as well as George Orwell would be described as liberals just as Thomas Jefferson and Ron Paul as libertarians.Despite very great differences as to the ideal economic system, all saw or see the great dangers from the unrestrained growth of big brother. It is interesting to me that Jim perceives the duplicity of big brother military industrial complex in the invasion and occupation of Iraq, but refuses to recognize the other arm of big brother in the police state. I see them as the two big, muscular arms of a guy that makes King Kong look like a wimp.
                >
                >
                > Peace and freedom
                > Tom
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • tom
                Mary Ironically, the fact that both major parties are to a large extent the whores of the same special interests is a point that both libertarians and most
                Message 7 of 9 , Mar 5, 2011
                • 0 Attachment
                  Mary

                  Ironically, the fact that both major parties are to a large extent the whores of the same special interests is a point that both libertarians and most Greens agree on. Libertarians and Greens often hold joint voter registration and many become friends. I read of a libertarian telling his Green friend,"We have many of the same goals as you, but we dont see government as the way to get there."
                  Peace
                  Tom
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Mary
                  To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2011 10:23 AM
                  Subject: [existlist] Re: Police state



                  Wil,

                  Yes, there really isn't much difference between any of them anymore. Even if I offered more in-depth articles to make my point, in your case I'd only be preaching to the choir.

                  Mary

                  --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote:

                  > Not much of a difference.

                  > From: tom <tsmith17_midsouth1@...>

                  > Mary

                  > I will check it out soon. Im on my way to yoga in a minute. There is no question that the Tea Party has two factions. One is a Fox News Seane Hannity, Rush supported group, and the other and maybe slightly smaller the Ron Paul libertarins. Libertarians desire to keep all government as small as possible;whereas the Fox type exlude police state and military from their desire to cut government. Neocons were originally liberals who went to the right on foreign policy and also against counterculture at home in 60s and 70s. Many were moderately liberal on entitlement spending as in Bush prescription drug bill, and no child left behind.
                  >
                  > Peace
                  > Tom
                  > ----- Original Message -----

                  > Tom,
                  >
                  > I refer you to an article revealing how libertarians and neo-conservatives are funded and directed by the same entity. Please note in the article how both the prison industry and this corporation, as part of an even larger lobbying cohort, crafts legislation for multiple states. Many of the issues about which you are passionate unfortunately dovetail with interests you might consider amoral. As has become evident in our state alone, these people are not vested in compromise but an action plan having nothing to do with fairness or freedom, and everything to do with profit. As I've become suspicious of liberals who masquerade as democrats, I beseech you to mistrust conservatives who front as libertarians. They merely pay lip service to the principles we cherish and laugh at us on the way to their banks. Philosophy subsumes religion, politics, and profit.
                  >
                  > http://www.expressmilwaukee.com/article-14041-whos-creating-walkers-playbook-.html
                  >
                  > Peace,
                  > Mary
                  >
                  > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware of change in the air - however slight - lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness.
                  > > Justice William O. Douglas quotes:
                  > > Since when have we Americans been expected to bow submissively to authority and speak with awe and reverence to those who represent us?
                  > > Justice William O. Douglas quotes:
                  > > The right to be let alone is indeed the beginning of all freedom.
                  > > Justice William O. Douglas quotes:
                  > > It is better, so the Fourth Amendment teaches us, that the guilty sometimes go free than the citizens be subject to easy arrest.
                  > > Justice William O. Douglas quotes:
                  > > Big Brother in the form of an increasingly powerful government and in an increasingly powerful private sector will pile the records high with reasons why privacy should give way to national security, to law and order, to efficiency of operation, to scientific advancement and the like.
                  > > Justice William O. Douglas quotes:
                  > > The privacy and dignity of our citizens [are] being whittled away by sometimes imperceptible steps. Taken individually, each step may be of little consequence. But when viewed as a whole, there begins to emerge a society quite unlike any we have seen -- a society in which government may intrude into the secret regions of a [person's] life.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > I believe the self serving growth of the police state just like the self serving growth of the military industrial complex is something against which both liberals and libertarians can unite. Justice Douglas as well as George Orwell would be described as liberals just as Thomas Jefferson and Ron Paul as libertarians.Despite very great differences as to the ideal economic system, all saw or see the great dangers from the unrestrained growth of big brother. It is interesting to me that Jim perceives the duplicity of big brother military industrial complex in the invasion and occupation of Iraq, but refuses to recognize the other arm of big brother in the police state. I see them as the two big, muscular arms of a guy that makes King Kong look like a wimp.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Peace and freedom
                  > > Tom
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Jim
                  Tom, I have been following with interest your discussion with Mary and Wil concerning the merits or otherwise of libertarianism. As I have said before, I am in
                  Message 8 of 9 , Mar 6, 2011
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                    Tom,

                    I have been following with interest your discussion with Mary and Wil concerning the merits or otherwise of libertarianism.

                    As I have said before, I am in complete agreement with you concerning your views on US foreign policy, as well as your thoughts on decriminalising drug use.

                    My central disagreement with you is over our respective attitudes to government. You prefer small government, I prefer big government.

                    You think that private corporations can deliver better healthcare, better education, better garbage collection, better parks, better recreational facilities, etc than public bodies can. I disagree.

                    As you say, this is partly a cultural thing – you Americans generally distrust government in a way we Europeans don't.

                    However, I suspect at root the differences between you and me boil down to different philosophical positions regarding the human individual. You seem to think that human motivation is fundamental selfish – perhaps you even adhere to the Ayn Rand account of human motivation.

                    I think human beings are fundamentally social beings with an innate sympathy for their fellows. I think we sometimes act from selfish motives, and we sometimes act from unselfish motives. In fact we enjoy helping others and we want the lives of our friends, neighbours, and even foreigners who we have never met, to go well. We are distressed to hear of the suffering of others and we want others to be happy and live fulfilled lives.

                    The altruistic side of our characters is not really encouraged by capitalism, and we are also not really encouraged to trust others. By contrast, socialism does encourage altruistic attitudes, and teaches us to trust our fellow citizens.

                    As I have said before, many who work in the public sector in this country are motivated by altruistic considerations, and there is strong evidence that public sector organisations act more in the public interest than private (corporate) organisations. Hence we have brought the major banks (partially) into the public sector.

                    So I think you have a fundamental distrust of your fellow human being, based on something like the Ayn rand account of human psychology, and this accounts for your anti-Government stance.

                    Secondly, I think another difference between us, is that you value human freedom much more than I do. I think the movement away from communitarianism and towards individualism has now gone too far in the West, and further calls for greater freedom (and hence greater individualism) are wrong headed.

                    My current thinking on this matter is that I am forming the view that freedom is actually opposed to love. In order to love others, an individual must voluntarily give up some of his freedom, and often in life the hardest personal decisions involve a choice between an existence which is free, but lacks love, and an existence which includes love, but little or no freedom. An existential choice in an imperfect world!

                    Jim




                    --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Mary
                    >
                    > Ironically, the fact that both major parties are to a large extent the whores of the same special interests is a point that both libertarians and most Greens agree on. Libertarians and Greens often hold joint voter registration and many become friends. I read of a libertarian telling his Green friend,"We have many of the same goals as you, but we dont see government as the way to get there."
                    > Peace
                    > Tom
                  • tom
                    Jim Several points I d like to make. First, I perceive US foreign policy and US drug policy as the particular expressions of tendencies in government to
                    Message 9 of 9 , Mar 6, 2011
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                      Jim

                      Several points I'd like to make. First, I perceive US foreign policy and US drug policy as the particular expressions of tendencies in government to become self serving. In my opinion, whither the US military industrial establishment, or the US police state and prison system, the desires by contractors and employees' organizations to maintain and if possible increase the revenues going to them causes them to utilize their considerable economic and political power to influence politicians to continually make decisions supporting the expansion of such agenda. As to the assumption that my suspicion of large government is indicative of an Ayn Rand paradigms of assuming selfishness as the only human motivation, libertarians don't necesarily oppose altruism;however they oppose the use of force to serve allegedly altruisic goals . One of the most currently popular libertarians in the US is Dr Ron Paul, congressman from Texas. As a young doctor, he worked many hours in some charity hospital for $3 dollars an hour to facilitate free or low cost care being given to the needy.About 10 years ago, a friend returned to Memphis. He got married in the late 80s and lived about 13 years or so in a rural area of the New England state of Vermont.He told me that in cases that a person had damage from a storm or some such, local people would come out and help the person rebuild his property free of charge.But this was a voluntary expression of a rural sense of neighborliness, not the result of some department of home rebuilding.As for socialism encouraging altruism , did you ever read Orwell's "Animal Farm"? In it the pigs soon take over the farm, and the pigs represent in symbolic form the commisars. As for believing that private corporations usually deliver better healthcare, better education, better garbage collection etc. than the government for a better price, I think both personal experience and statistics can support that. Last weekend, someone stole the dumpster that the city sanitation department assigns me to leave my garbage in for collection. I reported it last Monday,but am still awaiting a new dumpster being delivered to me. For the amount of money spent per child for public education in the US, a much better education could be obtained from private schools in most cases.I have heard that it was usually found both in the former USSR as well as China that land that farmers were allowed to cultivate for themselves yielded much higher per acre than that cultivated for the public.As an employee, there is much good that can be said for working for the government in terms of security, salary, retirement etc.;however as a consumer of such services very little good can be said. I have heard the analogy of centers of concern in a human being as a number of circles, with the individual self the circle in the center, and spouse, children, etc the next and expanding out to community, region, nation, world, cosmos etc. I think this is an optimum scenario, but often huge government results in people performing government jobs of which they are increasingly aware that such jobs involve harm to those to which they have no animosity. I have had several occasion where cops have given me speeding tickets showing less miles over the limit than was the case. Obviously he had to give out that many tickets to pacify his bosses, but reduced the amount of miles so as to be as little harmful to me as possible. I have many friends with similar experiences. Many cops are no big fans of the policies of the police state, but like the pay, security and retirement. As for freedom and love, to the extent that love of a person or persons becomes a greater determinant of motivation than individual whims that is one thing. However, if this reorientation is produced by the barrel of a gun it is quite another.Libertarianism has no objections to the voluntary joining of individuals into communal units as long as it is voluntary.I have heard the theory that the tribe was usually small enough that everyone knew everyone else. This is similar to the rural scenario of my friend in Vermont. However, when the unit expands well beyond that, action motivated by the heart is usually replaced by actions dictated by various bureaucrats or politicians.

                      Peace
                      Tom
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Jim
                      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2011 5:04 AM
                      Subject: [existlist] Re: Police state



                      Tom,

                      I have been following with interest your discussion with Mary and Wil concerning the merits or otherwise of libertarianism.

                      As I have said before, I am in complete agreement with you concerning your views on US foreign policy, as well as your thoughts on decriminalising drug use.

                      My central disagreement with you is over our respective attitudes to government. You prefer small government, I prefer big government.

                      You think that private corporations can deliver better healthcare, better education, better garbage collection, better parks, better recreational facilities, etc than public bodies can. I disagree.

                      As you say, this is partly a cultural thing - you Americans generally distrust government in a way we Europeans don't.

                      However, I suspect at root the differences between you and me boil down to different philosophical positions regarding the human individual. You seem to think that human motivation is fundamental selfish - perhaps you even adhere to the Ayn Rand account of human motivation.

                      I think human beings are fundamentally social beings with an innate sympathy for their fellows. I think we sometimes act from selfish motives, and we sometimes act from unselfish motives. In fact we enjoy helping others and we want the lives of our friends, neighbours, and even foreigners who we have never met, to go well. We are distressed to hear of the suffering of others and we want others to be happy and live fulfilled lives.

                      The altruistic side of our characters is not really encouraged by capitalism, and we are also not really encouraged to trust others. By contrast, socialism does encourage altruistic attitudes, and teaches us to trust our fellow citizens.

                      As I have said before, many who work in the public sector in this country are motivated by altruistic considerations, and there is strong evidence that public sector organisations act more in the public interest than private (corporate) organisations. Hence we have brought the major banks (partially) into the public sector.

                      So I think you have a fundamental distrust of your fellow human being, based on something like the Ayn rand account of human psychology, and this accounts for your anti-Government stance.

                      Secondly, I think another difference between us, is that you value human freedom much more than I do. I think the movement away from communitarianism and towards individualism has now gone too far in the West, and further calls for greater freedom (and hence greater individualism) are wrong headed.

                      My current thinking on this matter is that I am forming the view that freedom is actually opposed to love. In order to love others, an individual must voluntarily give up some of his freedom, and often in life the hardest personal decisions involve a choice between an existence which is free, but lacks love, and an existence which includes love, but little or no freedom. An existential choice in an imperfect world!

                      Jim

                      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Mary
                      >
                      > Ironically, the fact that both major parties are to a large extent the whores of the same special interests is a point that both libertarians and most Greens agree on. Libertarians and Greens often hold joint voter registration and many become friends. I read of a libertarian telling his Green friend,"We have many of the same goals as you, but we dont see government as the way to get there."
                      > Peace
                      > Tom





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