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Re: [existlist] Re: Skirmish in the war for civilisation

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  • tom
    Will, OK, to be agreeable I will change my statement to between Milton Freidman and Karl Marx. Peace, Tom ... From: eupraxis@aol.com To:
    Message 1 of 13 , Aug 31, 2010
    • 0 Attachment
      Will,

      OK, to be agreeable I will change my statement to between Milton Freidman and Karl Marx.

      Peace,
      Tom
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: eupraxis@...
      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 9:57 PM
      Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Skirmish in the war for civilisation




      "I don't know where the balance lies between Kark Marx and Adam Smith"

      The question is what you think separates them. Contrary to popular assumptions, Smith was not a partisan for any kind of avaricious free markets, and all of that. Smith, in fact, considered economics to be a subcategory of ethics (morality).

      Wil

      -----Original Message-----
      From: tom <tsmith17_midsouth1@...>
      To: existlist <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tue, Aug 31, 2010 9:48 pm
      Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Skirmish in the war for civilisation

      Bill,

      It seems we are caught betwen the devil and the deep blue sea. Capitalism is in many ways inhuman, but socialism in practice results in money and resources being allocated to those with political clout. At present, the average federal government employee makes about twice what the average employee in private enterprise makes. And this ain't the half of it. A lower or middle management type in many companies is working long hours, under much stress, and always subject to downsizing or being replaced by a younger lower paid person, who then will work long hours, relocate where the company wants him, and might in 20 years be making the salary of the guy he replaced.Then there is the world of the government bureacrat, taking long cofffee breaks, long lunchs, chatting on the phone with friends, and looking at his stocks and reading books on improving his golf swing. The first guy is living in the world of Charles Dickens, and the second in the world of minor aristocracy. Unionize d workers in industrial work have been reduced by globalization as somebody in south America or Korea will do for 4 or 5 dollars an hour what the US auto or steel worker got $30 an hour for, whereas unionized workers are now more concentrated in government. To a large extent, the stimulus money to the states has been a payoff to the Service Employees International Union and the Teachers Union.

      I don't know where the balance lies between Kark Marx and Adam Smith.

      FROM HIPPIES TO HIP HOP

      From hippies to hip hop
      From love-ins to drive-by shootings that ain't ever gonna stop
      Cats watching ballgames and fights
      Chicks watching soap operas and going out to shop
      Cats that can't make it as rock stars or pro athletes having to settle on being a gangsta or a cop

      GROOVY MAN
      www.thecoolcat.net

      Peace and best wishes,
      Tom

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: William
      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 1:22 PM
      Subject: [existlist] Re: Skirmish in the war for civilisation

      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
      >
      > Bill,
      >
      > My assessment of the situation is that both Iraq and Afghanistan were bogus wars to start with. The US allegedly went into Afghanistan to hunt Bin Laden, but a few years later Bush admitted he hadn't given Bin Laden any thought in a long time. The US allegedly went into Iraq because of wmds. Saddam was finally allowing UN inspectors, but then Bush pulled inspectors and attacked anyway. This is like a big thug in a prison yard or street corner making up an excuse to beat up much smaller weaker guy. During Reagan's time, Iraq was taken off the terrorists list, and there is a picture of Rumsfeld shaking hands with him. Reagan also met with Taliban and compared them to US founders. Like Orwell's 1984, good nations and bad nations change overnight. I think the Bush administration was at least complicit in 911 to get public opinion behind mideast aggressiion.
      >
      > When you and I were growing up, made in Japan meant cheap but shoddy. By the 70s, Japanese autos started setting a new standard for durability and dependability. We thought technical ability was a province of the west, particularly the US. However, iq tests now show people of eastern descent do better as a group on spacial relations, closely connected with aptitude for science and engineering. Globalization is a leveling force, good for previously very poor 3rd world nations and bad for previously affluent US and probably Europe. From the mid 30s onward, a minor aristocracy developed among union members working for US auto, steel, and tire companies. There were 3 or 4 US corporations that made these products, and one union of auto workers, steel workers, and rubber workers who bargained with them.It was easier for companies to give in to unions and pass cost on to consumers than face a strike.With electronics, you often notice that as productivity improves, prices go d own. In the days of 1 big union and 3 or 4 big companies, workers got all productivity incrreases in wages and benefits. A guy could push a broom at an auto or steel plant, and make 3 times the rate he'd make pushing it somewhere else. As globalization replaced high paid industrial union workers, the war on drugs increased the numbers of well paid cops and jailers, the new minor aristocracy. It is human to enjoy being in an aristocracy, but I think the book and movie entitled Gone With The Wind shows how privileges can disappear.
      >
      > I recall a poem I read in freshman English, which I guess was written around end of 19th or early 20th century recounting the historical centers of civilizations moving westward from Asia to Greece, then Rome, then UK and then to US. It predicted the completion of the circle, and in the last 36 or 40 years its happening.
      >Tom, I think your world view is most exact and very broad. I really do not know who came up with globalisation, it seems in hindsight an idealistic venture that no western worker would support. I do know Clinton liked and understood it. I fear he knew and allowed the dismantling and whosale movement of the means of production to foreign shores and foreign workers. Clinton and Bush compleated the great westward march of modernity that now ends in China.
      The power clubs of the twentieth century came apart of their own mass. Bush killed labor and as a republican business man it could be said,that was his job. The unions were bloated and our more left leaning president seems to give them little notice except at election time.Business organisations and other power clubs are similarly shattered. I point to the American investment industry and Citigroup particularly as a brutal scalping of people and worth. I actually fear politics itself may be on the block as an outmoded power club. It may be that hyper capitalism and evolution with its tenant, survival of the fittest, may be axiomatic.
      The European socialist model remains in the background. With many members of the european economic union all but bankrupt that system seems anything but bullet proof. Their long ,paid vacations and low retirement ages seem odd partners in a unionless,low wage work force.
      Yesterday a business economist said there is no market for unskilled labor in this country. You ,Tom, being from Ten. know cars are nolonger built by people ,there are machines in those factories, not laborers. Highly skilled ,repetative work goes to low wage artisans. I point to dental lab work. It is now sent to China where workers live in dormatories and work long hours at low wages. In a communist state you can commander individuals for a life of bleak servitude. Is that our future?
      I am happy to be able to voice these thoughts with you. This is about the existance of the species and certainly is of existential note. Bill

      >
      > Peace and best wishes,
      > Tom
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: William
      > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 8:51 AM
      > Subject: [existlist] Skirmish in the war for civilisation
      >
      >
      >
      > The few that care about world trends understand that the northern ,industrial world is in a life and death struggle with the less developed southern world. Tonight Obama will speak of the end of our combat role in Iraq. That would seem to be good news. Ten years from now we may know if our war was a good or bad investment.
      > I will not entertain any foolishness about the level of the basic civilasations. Anyone who wants to live in the worlds fleshpots should go there. The last great northern civilasation is coming of age. China is becomming a modern country and that transformation from agrarian pesants to world citizens drives much of the unemployment and recession in the world today. We are making room for them in this new world order. American jobs are now in India and China. Russia and USA are paying the price for this new order with dispressed living standards, alcohol and drug usage and declining birth rates. Personally I think we made a terrible mistake in this agreement but time will tell.
      > So tonight we will hear what The President thinks about the end of this long war. I will look forward to Toms acessment of the situation. Bill
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • eupraxis@aol.com
      Now THAT S a question! Wi ... From: tom To: existlist Sent: Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:18 am Subject: Re:
      Message 2 of 13 , Sep 1, 2010
      • 0 Attachment
        Now THAT'S a question!

        Wi




        -----Original Message-----
        From: tom <tsmith17_midsouth1@...>
        To: existlist <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wed, Sep 1, 2010 1:18 am
        Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Skirmish in the war for civilisation





        Will,

        OK, to be agreeable I will change my statement to between Milton Freidman and Karl Marx.

        Peace,
        Tom
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: eupraxis@...
        To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 9:57 PM
        Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Skirmish in the war for civilisation

        "I don't know where the balance lies between Kark Marx and Adam Smith"

        The question is what you think separates them. Contrary to popular assumptions, Smith was not a partisan for any kind of avaricious free markets, and all of that. Smith, in fact, considered economics to be a subcategory of ethics (morality).

        Wil

        -----Original Message-----
        From: tom <tsmith17_midsouth1@...>
        To: existlist <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Tue, Aug 31, 2010 9:48 pm
        Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Skirmish in the war for civilisation

        Bill,

        It seems we are caught betwen the devil and the deep blue sea. Capitalism is in many ways inhuman, but socialism in practice results in money and resources being allocated to those with political clout. At present, the average federal government employee makes about twice what the average employee in private enterprise makes. And this ain't the half of it. A lower or middle management type in many companies is working long hours, under much stress, and always subject to downsizing or being replaced by a younger lower paid person, who then will work long hours, relocate where the company wants him, and might in 20 years be making the salary of the guy he replaced.Then there is the world of the government bureacrat, taking long cofffee breaks, long lunchs, chatting on the phone with friends, and looking at his stocks and reading books on improving his golf swing. The first guy is living in the world of Charles Dickens, and the second in the world of minor aristocracy. Unionize d workers in industrial work have been reduced by globalization as somebody in south America or Korea will do for 4 or 5 dollars an hour what the US auto or steel worker got $30 an hour for, whereas unionized workers are now more concentrated in government. To a large extent, the stimulus money to the states has been a payoff to the Service Employees International Union and the Teachers Union.

        I don't know where the balance lies between Kark Marx and Adam Smith.

        FROM HIPPIES TO HIP HOP

        From hippies to hip hop
        From love-ins to drive-by shootings that ain't ever gonna stop
        Cats watching ballgames and fights
        Chicks watching soap operas and going out to shop
        Cats that can't make it as rock stars or pro athletes having to settle on being a gangsta or a cop

        GROOVY MAN
        www.thecoolcat.net

        Peace and best wishes,
        Tom

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: William
        To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 1:22 PM
        Subject: [existlist] Re: Skirmish in the war for civilisation

        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
        >
        > Bill,
        >
        > My assessment of the situation is that both Iraq and Afghanistan were bogus wars to start with. The US allegedly went into Afghanistan to hunt Bin Laden, but a few years later Bush admitted he hadn't given Bin Laden any thought in a long time. The US allegedly went into Iraq because of wmds. Saddam was finally allowing UN inspectors, but then Bush pulled inspectors and attacked anyway. This is like a big thug in a prison yard or street corner making up an excuse to beat up much smaller weaker guy. During Reagan's time, Iraq was taken off the terrorists list, and there is a picture of Rumsfeld shaking hands with him. Reagan also met with Taliban and compared them to US founders. Like Orwell's 1984, good nations and bad nations change overnight. I think the Bush administration was at least complicit in 911 to get public opinion behind mideast aggressiion.
        >
        > When you and I were growing up, made in Japan meant cheap but shoddy. By the 70s, Japanese autos started setting a new standard for durability and dependability. We thought technical ability was a province of the west, particularly the US. However, iq tests now show people of eastern descent do better as a group on spacial relations, closely connected with aptitude for science and engineering. Globalization is a leveling force, good for previously very poor 3rd world nations and bad for previously affluent US and probably Europe. From the mid 30s onward, a minor aristocracy developed among union members working for US auto, steel, and tire companies. There were 3 or 4 US corporations that made these products, and one union of auto workers, steel workers, and rubber workers who bargained with them.It was easier for companies to give in to unions and pass cost on to consumers than face a strike.With electronics, you often notice that as productivity improves, prices go d own. In the days of 1 big union and 3 or 4 big companies, workers got all productivity incrreases in wages and benefits. A guy could push a broom at an auto or steel plant, and make 3 times the rate he'd make pushing it somewhere else. As globalization replaced high paid industrial union workers, the war on drugs increased the numbers of well paid cops and jailers, the new minor aristocracy. It is human to enjoy being in an aristocracy, but I think the book and movie entitled Gone With The Wind shows how privileges can disappear.
        >
        > I recall a poem I read in freshman English, which I guess was written around end of 19th or early 20th century recounting the historical centers of civilizations moving westward from Asia to Greece, then Rome, then UK and then to US. It predicted the completion of the circle, and in the last 36 or 40 years its happening.
        >Tom, I think your world view is most exact and very broad. I really do not know who came up with globalisation, it seems in hindsight an idealistic venture that no western worker would support. I do know Clinton liked and understood it. I fear he knew and allowed the dismantling and whosale movement of the means of production to foreign shores and foreign workers. Clinton and Bush compleated the great westward march of modernity that now ends in China.
        The power clubs of the twentieth century came apart of their own mass. Bush killed labor and as a republican business man it could be said,that was his job. The unions were bloated and our more left leaning president seems to give them little notice except at election time.Business organisations and other power clubs are similarly shattered. I point to the American investment industry and Citigroup particularly as a brutal scalping of people and worth. I actually fear politics itself may be on the block as an outmoded power club. It may be that hyper capitalism and evolution with its tenant, survival of the fittest, may be axiomatic.
        The European socialist model remains in the background. With many members of the european economic union all but bankrupt that system seems anything but bullet proof. Their long ,paid vacations and low retirement ages seem odd partners in a unionless,low wage work force.
        Yesterday a business economist said there is no market for unskilled labor in this country. You ,Tom, being from Ten. know cars are nolonger built by people ,there are machines in those factories, not laborers. Highly skilled ,repetative work goes to low wage artisans. I point to dental lab work. It is now sent to China where workers live in dormatories and work long hours at low wages. In a communist state you can commander individuals for a life of bleak servitude. Is that our future?
        I am happy to be able to voice these thoughts with you. This is about the existance of the species and certainly is of existential note. Bill

        >
        > Peace and best wishes,
        > Tom
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: William
        > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 8:51 AM
        > Subject: [existlist] Skirmish in the war for civilisation
        >
        >
        >
        > The few that care about world trends understand that the northern ,industrial world is in a life and death struggle with the less developed southern world. Tonight Obama will speak of the end of our combat role in Iraq. That would seem to be good news. Ten years from now we may know if our war was a good or bad investment.
        > I will not entertain any foolishness about the level of the basic civilasations. Anyone who wants to live in the worlds fleshpots should go there. The last great northern civilasation is coming of age. China is becomming a modern country and that transformation from agrarian pesants to world citizens drives much of the unemployment and recession in the world today. We are making room for them in this new world order. American jobs are now in India and China. Russia and USA are paying the price for this new order with dispressed living standards, alcohol and drug usage and declining birth rates. Personally I think we made a terrible mistake in this agreement but time will tell.
        > So tonight we will hear what The President thinks about the end of this long war. I will look forward to Toms acessment of the situation. Bill
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Mary
        Tom, I see nothing wrong with unions; we need more of them. I think most of the problems we have with unsafe food production would be eliminated with strong
        Message 3 of 13 , Sep 1, 2010
        • 0 Attachment
          Tom, I see nothing wrong with unions; we need more of them. I think most of the problems we have with unsafe food production would be eliminated with strong labor. We have plenty of federal and international labor codes, but they aren't enforced. Work is a contract, and workers need to bargain from a position of strength, not fear. Mary

          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
          >
          > Will,
          >
          > OK, to be agreeable I will change my statement to between Milton Freidman and Karl Marx.
          >
          > Peace,
          > Tom
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: eupraxis@...
          > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 9:57 PM
          > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Skirmish in the war for civilisation
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > "I don't know where the balance lies between Kark Marx and Adam Smith"
          >
          > The question is what you think separates them. Contrary to popular assumptions, Smith was not a partisan for any kind of avaricious free markets, and all of that. Smith, in fact, considered economics to be a subcategory of ethics (morality).
          >
          > Wil
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: tom <tsmith17_midsouth1@...>
          > To: existlist <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Tue, Aug 31, 2010 9:48 pm
          > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Skirmish in the war for civilisation
          >
          > Bill,
          >
          > It seems we are caught betwen the devil and the deep blue sea. Capitalism is in many ways inhuman, but socialism in practice results in money and resources being allocated to those with political clout. At present, the average federal government employee makes about twice what the average employee in private enterprise makes. And this ain't the half of it. A lower or middle management type in many companies is working long hours, under much stress, and always subject to downsizing or being replaced by a younger lower paid person, who then will work long hours, relocate where the company wants him, and might in 20 years be making the salary of the guy he replaced.Then there is the world of the government bureacrat, taking long cofffee breaks, long lunchs, chatting on the phone with friends, and looking at his stocks and reading books on improving his golf swing. The first guy is living in the world of Charles Dickens, and the second in the world of minor aristocracy. Unionize d workers in industrial work have been reduced by globalization as somebody in south America or Korea will do for 4 or 5 dollars an hour what the US auto or steel worker got $30 an hour for, whereas unionized workers are now more concentrated in government. To a large extent, the stimulus money to the states has been a payoff to the Service Employees International Union and the Teachers Union.
          >
          > I don't know where the balance lies between Kark Marx and Adam Smith.
          >
          > FROM HIPPIES TO HIP HOP
          >
          > From hippies to hip hop
          > From love-ins to drive-by shootings that ain't ever gonna stop
          > Cats watching ballgames and fights
          > Chicks watching soap operas and going out to shop
          > Cats that can't make it as rock stars or pro athletes having to settle on being a gangsta or a cop
          >
          > GROOVY MAN
          > www.thecoolcat.net
          >
          > Peace and best wishes,
          > Tom
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: William
          > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 1:22 PM
          > Subject: [existlist] Re: Skirmish in the war for civilisation
          >
          > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Bill,
          > >
          > > My assessment of the situation is that both Iraq and Afghanistan were bogus wars to start with. The US allegedly went into Afghanistan to hunt Bin Laden, but a few years later Bush admitted he hadn't given Bin Laden any thought in a long time. The US allegedly went into Iraq because of wmds. Saddam was finally allowing UN inspectors, but then Bush pulled inspectors and attacked anyway. This is like a big thug in a prison yard or street corner making up an excuse to beat up much smaller weaker guy. During Reagan's time, Iraq was taken off the terrorists list, and there is a picture of Rumsfeld shaking hands with him. Reagan also met with Taliban and compared them to US founders. Like Orwell's 1984, good nations and bad nations change overnight. I think the Bush administration was at least complicit in 911 to get public opinion behind mideast aggressiion.
          > >
          > > When you and I were growing up, made in Japan meant cheap but shoddy. By the 70s, Japanese autos started setting a new standard for durability and dependability. We thought technical ability was a province of the west, particularly the US. However, iq tests now show people of eastern descent do better as a group on spacial relations, closely connected with aptitude for science and engineering. Globalization is a leveling force, good for previously very poor 3rd world nations and bad for previously affluent US and probably Europe. From the mid 30s onward, a minor aristocracy developed among union members working for US auto, steel, and tire companies. There were 3 or 4 US corporations that made these products, and one union of auto workers, steel workers, and rubber workers who bargained with them.It was easier for companies to give in to unions and pass cost on to consumers than face a strike.With electronics, you often notice that as productivity improves, prices go d own. In the days of 1 big union and 3 or 4 big companies, workers got all productivity incrreases in wages and benefits. A guy could push a broom at an auto or steel plant, and make 3 times the rate he'd make pushing it somewhere else. As globalization replaced high paid industrial union workers, the war on drugs increased the numbers of well paid cops and jailers, the new minor aristocracy. It is human to enjoy being in an aristocracy, but I think the book and movie entitled Gone With The Wind shows how privileges can disappear.
          > >
          > > I recall a poem I read in freshman English, which I guess was written around end of 19th or early 20th century recounting the historical centers of civilizations moving westward from Asia to Greece, then Rome, then UK and then to US. It predicted the completion of the circle, and in the last 36 or 40 years its happening.
          > >Tom, I think your world view is most exact and very broad. I really do not know who came up with globalisation, it seems in hindsight an idealistic venture that no western worker would support. I do know Clinton liked and understood it. I fear he knew and allowed the dismantling and whosale movement of the means of production to foreign shores and foreign workers. Clinton and Bush compleated the great westward march of modernity that now ends in China.
          > The power clubs of the twentieth century came apart of their own mass. Bush killed labor and as a republican business man it could be said,that was his job. The unions were bloated and our more left leaning president seems to give them little notice except at election time.Business organisations and other power clubs are similarly shattered. I point to the American investment industry and Citigroup particularly as a brutal scalping of people and worth. I actually fear politics itself may be on the block as an outmoded power club. It may be that hyper capitalism and evolution with its tenant, survival of the fittest, may be axiomatic.
          > The European socialist model remains in the background. With many members of the european economic union all but bankrupt that system seems anything but bullet proof. Their long ,paid vacations and low retirement ages seem odd partners in a unionless,low wage work force.
          > Yesterday a business economist said there is no market for unskilled labor in this country. You ,Tom, being from Ten. know cars are nolonger built by people ,there are machines in those factories, not laborers. Highly skilled ,repetative work goes to low wage artisans. I point to dental lab work. It is now sent to China where workers live in dormatories and work long hours at low wages. In a communist state you can commander individuals for a life of bleak servitude. Is that our future?
          > I am happy to be able to voice these thoughts with you. This is about the existance of the species and certainly is of existential note. Bill
          >
          > >
          > > Peace and best wishes,
          > > Tom
          > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > From: William
          > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          > > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 8:51 AM
          > > Subject: [existlist] Skirmish in the war for civilisation
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > The few that care about world trends understand that the northern ,industrial world is in a life and death struggle with the less developed southern world. Tonight Obama will speak of the end of our combat role in Iraq. That would seem to be good news. Ten years from now we may know if our war was a good or bad investment.
          > > I will not entertain any foolishness about the level of the basic civilasations. Anyone who wants to live in the worlds fleshpots should go there. The last great northern civilasation is coming of age. China is becomming a modern country and that transformation from agrarian pesants to world citizens drives much of the unemployment and recession in the world today. We are making room for them in this new world order. American jobs are now in India and China. Russia and USA are paying the price for this new order with dispressed living standards, alcohol and drug usage and declining birth rates. Personally I think we made a terrible mistake in this agreement but time will tell.
          > > So tonight we will hear what The President thinks about the end of this long war. I will look forward to Toms acessment of the situation. Bill
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • eupraxis@aol.com
          workers need to bargain from a position of strength, not fear Amen to that! Wil ... From: Mary To: existlist
          Message 4 of 13 , Sep 1, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            "workers need to bargain from a position of strength, not fear"
            Amen to that!

            Wil




            -----Original Message-----
            From: Mary <josephson45r@...>
            To: existlist <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Wed, Sep 1, 2010 4:02 pm
            Subject: [existlist] Re: Skirmish in the war for civilisation





            Tom, I see nothing wrong with unions; we need more of them. I think most of the problems we have with unsafe food production would be eliminated with strong labor. We have plenty of federal and international labor codes, but they aren't enforced. Work is a contract, and workers need to bargain from a position of strength, not fear. Mary

            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
            >
            > Will,
            >
            > OK, to be agreeable I will change my statement to between Milton Freidman and Karl Marx.
            >
            > Peace,
            > Tom
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: eupraxis@...
            > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 9:57 PM
            > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Skirmish in the war for civilisation
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > "I don't know where the balance lies between Kark Marx and Adam Smith"
            >
            > The question is what you think separates them. Contrary to popular assumptions, Smith was not a partisan for any kind of avaricious free markets, and all of that. Smith, in fact, considered economics to be a subcategory of ethics (morality).
            >
            > Wil
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: tom <tsmith17_midsouth1@...>
            > To: existlist <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Tue, Aug 31, 2010 9:48 pm
            > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Skirmish in the war for civilisation
            >
            > Bill,
            >
            > It seems we are caught betwen the devil and the deep blue sea. Capitalism is in many ways inhuman, but socialism in practice results in money and resources being allocated to those with political clout. At present, the average federal government employee makes about twice what the average employee in private enterprise makes. And this ain't the half of it. A lower or middle management type in many companies is working long hours, under much stress, and always subject to downsizing or being replaced by a younger lower paid person, who then will work long hours, relocate where the company wants him, and might in 20 years be making the salary of the guy he replaced.Then there is the world of the government bureacrat, taking long cofffee breaks, long lunchs, chatting on the phone with friends, and looking at his stocks and reading books on improving his golf swing. The first guy is living in the world of Charles Dickens, and the second in the world of minor aristocracy. Un ionize d workers in industrial work have been reduced by globalization as somebody in south America or Korea will do for 4 or 5 dollars an hour what the US auto or steel worker got $30 an hour for, whereas unionized workers are now more concentrated in government. To a large extent, the stimulus money to the states has been a payoff to the Service Employees International Union and the Teachers Union.
            >
            > I don't know where the balance lies between Kark Marx and Adam Smith.
            >
            > FROM HIPPIES TO HIP HOP
            >
            > From hippies to hip hop
            > From love-ins to drive-by shootings that ain't ever gonna stop
            > Cats watching ballgames and fights
            > Chicks watching soap operas and going out to shop
            > Cats that can't make it as rock stars or pro athletes having to settle on being a gangsta or a cop
            >
            > GROOVY MAN
            > www.thecoolcat.net
            >
            > Peace and best wishes,
            > Tom
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: William
            > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 1:22 PM
            > Subject: [existlist] Re: Skirmish in the war for civilisation
            >
            > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Bill,
            > >
            > > My assessment of the situation is that both Iraq and Afghanistan were bogus wars to start with. The US allegedly went into Afghanistan to hunt Bin Laden, but a few years later Bush admitted he hadn't given Bin Laden any thought in a long time. The US allegedly went into Iraq because of wmds. Saddam was finally allowing UN inspectors, but then Bush pulled inspectors and attacked anyway. This is like a big thug in a prison yard or street corner making up an excuse to beat up much smaller weaker guy. During Reagan's time, Iraq was taken off the terrorists list, and there is a picture of Rumsfeld shaking hands with him. Reagan also met with Taliban and compared them to US founders. Like Orwell's 1984, good nations and bad nations change overnight. I think the Bush administration was at least complicit in 911 to get public opinion behind mideast aggressiion.
            > >
            > > When you and I were growing up, made in Japan meant cheap but shoddy. By the 70s, Japanese autos started setting a new standard for durability and dependability. We thought technical ability was a province of the west, particularly the US. However, iq tests now show people of eastern descent do better as a group on spacial relations, closely connected with aptitude for science and engineering. Globalization is a leveling force, good for previously very poor 3rd world nations and bad for previously affluent US and probably Europe. From the mid 30s onward, a minor aristocracy developed among union members working for US auto, steel, and tire companies. There were 3 or 4 US corporations that made these products, and one union of auto workers, steel workers, and rubber workers who bargained with them.It was easier for companies to give in to unions and pass cost on to consumers than face a strike.With electronics, you often notice that as productivity improves, prices go d own. In the days of 1 big union and 3 or 4 big companies, workers got all productivity incrreases in wages and benefits. A guy could push a broom at an auto or steel plant, and make 3 times the rate he'd make pushing it somewhere else. As globalization replaced high paid industrial union workers, the war on drugs increased the numbers of well paid cops and jailers, the new minor aristocracy. It is human to enjoy being in an aristocracy, but I think the book and movie entitled Gone With The Wind shows how privileges can disappear.
            > >
            > > I recall a poem I read in freshman English, which I guess was written around end of 19th or early 20th century recounting the historical centers of civilizations moving westward from Asia to Greece, then Rome, then UK and then to US. It predicted the completion of the circle, and in the last 36 or 40 years its happening.
            > >Tom, I think your world view is most exact and very broad. I really do not know who came up with globalisation, it seems in hindsight an idealistic venture that no western worker would support. I do know Clinton liked and understood it. I fear he knew and allowed the dismantling and whosale movement of the means of production to foreign shores and foreign workers. Clinton and Bush compleated the great westward march of modernity that now ends in China.
            > The power clubs of the twentieth century came apart of their own mass. Bush killed labor and as a republican business man it could be said,that was his job. The unions were bloated and our more left leaning president seems to give them little notice except at election time.Business organisations and other power clubs are similarly shattered. I point to the American investment industry and Citigroup particularly as a brutal scalping of people and worth. I actually fear politics itself may be on the block as an outmoded power club. It may be that hyper capitalism and evolution with its tenant, survival of the fittest, may be axiomatic.
            > The European socialist model remains in the background. With many members of the european economic union all but bankrupt that system seems anything but bullet proof. Their long ,paid vacations and low retirement ages seem odd partners in a unionless,low wage work force.
            > Yesterday a business economist said there is no market for unskilled labor in this country. You ,Tom, being from Ten. know cars are nolonger built by people ,there are machines in those factories, not laborers. Highly skilled ,repetative work goes to low wage artisans. I point to dental lab work. It is now sent to China where workers live in dormatories and work long hours at low wages. In a communist state you can commander individuals for a life of bleak servitude. Is that our future?
            > I am happy to be able to voice these thoughts with you. This is about the existance of the species and certainly is of existential note. Bill
            >
            > >
            > > Peace and best wishes,
            > > Tom
            > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > From: William
            > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            > > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 8:51 AM
            > > Subject: [existlist] Skirmish in the war for civilisation
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > The few that care about world trends understand that the northern ,industrial world is in a life and death struggle with the less developed southern world. Tonight Obama will speak of the end of our combat role in Iraq. That would seem to be good news. Ten years from now we may know if our war was a good or bad investment.
            > > I will not entertain any foolishness about the level of the basic civilasations. Anyone who wants to live in the worlds fleshpots should go there. The last great northern civilasation is coming of age. China is becomming a modern country and that transformation from agrarian pesants to world citizens drives much of the unemployment and recession in the world today. We are making room for them in this new world order. American jobs are now in India and China. Russia and USA are paying the price for this new order with dispressed living standards, alcohol and drug usage and declining birth rates. Personally I think we made a terrible mistake in this agreement but time will tell.
            > > So tonight we will hear what The President thinks about the end of this long war. I will look forward to Toms acessment of the situation. Bill
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >









            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • tom
            Mary and Will, As I said, I don t know where the balance lies between the 2 sides. Certainly, I would prefer to be represented by a powerful union if I were an
            Message 5 of 13 , Sep 1, 2010
            • 0 Attachment
              Mary and Will,

              As I said, I don't know where the balance lies between the 2 sides. Certainly, I would prefer to be represented by a powerful union if I were an employee. As long as unionization does not result in the workers being fired, or the work offshored it is good for the workers involved. In the US now, unions are more and more concentrated in government, in effect creating minor aristocracies. One of the reasons the states are in such bad shape is that in the past it was politically expedient to sign very generous pension agreements, that are becoming more crucial as baby boomers hit retirement age. To a large extent, I believe government in all areas tends to be self serving, and in many cases the only thing definitely good about the bureaus and programs is the affluence it brings the employees and corporate contractors.

              Looking at things from a yin/yang point of view, that when things go too far in one direction, a momentum is created in the other direction. In many ways, Reagan did lots of bad things, but in a sense the Reagan revolution was a reaction to the huge inflation which was brought on by huge union increases going on in the 70s.Air Trafic Controllers had came up rapidly as had many other unions. Obviously, they thought that like before some more money would come from somewhere to pay their demands. Even though Controllers have not had a union in almost 30 years, the top wage for them is about $200,000, not chickenfeed. One of the most unfair things about unions I think is that as I said, at an auto or steel plant a guy pushing a broom makes about 3 times the hourly rate that a guy does at a dollar store warehouse, plus not being subject to the presure to get as much sweeping done.When the dollar store warehouse guy buys a car, he is paying the inflated prices for the auto and steel workers with his low free martket rate.

              Anyway, I also understand you and Will's position, and for myself like everyone else being minor aristocracy beats the hell out of being an exploited worker.

              Peace and best wishes,
              Tom
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Mary
              To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 4:02 PM
              Subject: [existlist] Re: Skirmish in the war for civilisation



              Tom, I see nothing wrong with unions; we need more of them. I think most of the problems we have with unsafe food production would be eliminated with strong labor. We have plenty of federal and international labor codes, but they aren't enforced. Work is a contract, and workers need to bargain from a position of strength, not fear. Mary

              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
              >
              > Will,
              >
              > OK, to be agreeable I will change my statement to between Milton Freidman and Karl Marx.
              >
              > Peace,
              > Tom
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: eupraxis@...
              > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 9:57 PM
              > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Skirmish in the war for civilisation
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > "I don't know where the balance lies between Kark Marx and Adam Smith"
              >
              > The question is what you think separates them. Contrary to popular assumptions, Smith was not a partisan for any kind of avaricious free markets, and all of that. Smith, in fact, considered economics to be a subcategory of ethics (morality).
              >
              > Wil
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: tom <tsmith17_midsouth1@...>
              > To: existlist <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Tue, Aug 31, 2010 9:48 pm
              > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Skirmish in the war for civilisation
              >
              > Bill,
              >
              > It seems we are caught betwen the devil and the deep blue sea. Capitalism is in many ways inhuman, but socialism in practice results in money and resources being allocated to those with political clout. At present, the average federal government employee makes about twice what the average employee in private enterprise makes. And this ain't the half of it. A lower or middle management type in many companies is working long hours, under much stress, and always subject to downsizing or being replaced by a younger lower paid person, who then will work long hours, relocate where the company wants him, and might in 20 years be making the salary of the guy he replaced.Then there is the world of the government bureacrat, taking long cofffee breaks, long lunchs, chatting on the phone with friends, and looking at his stocks and reading books on improving his golf swing. The first guy is living in the world of Charles Dickens, and the second in the world of minor aristocracy. Unionize d workers in industrial work have been reduced by globalization as somebody in south America or Korea will do for 4 or 5 dollars an hour what the US auto or steel worker got $30 an hour for, whereas unionized workers are now more concentrated in government. To a large extent, the stimulus money to the states has been a payoff to the Service Employees International Union and the Teachers Union.
              >
              > I don't know where the balance lies between Kark Marx and Adam Smith.
              >
              > FROM HIPPIES TO HIP HOP
              >
              > From hippies to hip hop
              > From love-ins to drive-by shootings that ain't ever gonna stop
              > Cats watching ballgames and fights
              > Chicks watching soap operas and going out to shop
              > Cats that can't make it as rock stars or pro athletes having to settle on being a gangsta or a cop
              >
              > GROOVY MAN
              > www.thecoolcat.net
              >
              > Peace and best wishes,
              > Tom
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: William
              > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 1:22 PM
              > Subject: [existlist] Re: Skirmish in the war for civilisation
              >
              > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Bill,
              > >
              > > My assessment of the situation is that both Iraq and Afghanistan were bogus wars to start with. The US allegedly went into Afghanistan to hunt Bin Laden, but a few years later Bush admitted he hadn't given Bin Laden any thought in a long time. The US allegedly went into Iraq because of wmds. Saddam was finally allowing UN inspectors, but then Bush pulled inspectors and attacked anyway. This is like a big thug in a prison yard or street corner making up an excuse to beat up much smaller weaker guy. During Reagan's time, Iraq was taken off the terrorists list, and there is a picture of Rumsfeld shaking hands with him. Reagan also met with Taliban and compared them to US founders. Like Orwell's 1984, good nations and bad nations change overnight. I think the Bush administration was at least complicit in 911 to get public opinion behind mideast aggressiion.
              > >
              > > When you and I were growing up, made in Japan meant cheap but shoddy. By the 70s, Japanese autos started setting a new standard for durability and dependability. We thought technical ability was a province of the west, particularly the US. However, iq tests now show people of eastern descent do better as a group on spacial relations, closely connected with aptitude for science and engineering. Globalization is a leveling force, good for previously very poor 3rd world nations and bad for previously affluent US and probably Europe. From the mid 30s onward, a minor aristocracy developed among union members working for US auto, steel, and tire companies. There were 3 or 4 US corporations that made these products, and one union of auto workers, steel workers, and rubber workers who bargained with them.It was easier for companies to give in to unions and pass cost on to consumers than face a strike.With electronics, you often notice that as productivity improves, prices go d own. In the days of 1 big union and 3 or 4 big companies, workers got all productivity incrreases in wages and benefits. A guy could push a broom at an auto or steel plant, and make 3 times the rate he'd make pushing it somewhere else. As globalization replaced high paid industrial union workers, the war on drugs increased the numbers of well paid cops and jailers, the new minor aristocracy. It is human to enjoy being in an aristocracy, but I think the book and movie entitled Gone With The Wind shows how privileges can disappear.
              > >
              > > I recall a poem I read in freshman English, which I guess was written around end of 19th or early 20th century recounting the historical centers of civilizations moving westward from Asia to Greece, then Rome, then UK and then to US. It predicted the completion of the circle, and in the last 36 or 40 years its happening.
              > >Tom, I think your world view is most exact and very broad. I really do not know who came up with globalisation, it seems in hindsight an idealistic venture that no western worker would support. I do know Clinton liked and understood it. I fear he knew and allowed the dismantling and whosale movement of the means of production to foreign shores and foreign workers. Clinton and Bush compleated the great westward march of modernity that now ends in China.
              > The power clubs of the twentieth century came apart of their own mass. Bush killed labor and as a republican business man it could be said,that was his job. The unions were bloated and our more left leaning president seems to give them little notice except at election time.Business organisations and other power clubs are similarly shattered. I point to the American investment industry and Citigroup particularly as a brutal scalping of people and worth. I actually fear politics itself may be on the block as an outmoded power club. It may be that hyper capitalism and evolution with its tenant, survival of the fittest, may be axiomatic.
              > The European socialist model remains in the background. With many members of the european economic union all but bankrupt that system seems anything but bullet proof. Their long ,paid vacations and low retirement ages seem odd partners in a unionless,low wage work force.
              > Yesterday a business economist said there is no market for unskilled labor in this country. You ,Tom, being from Ten. know cars are nolonger built by people ,there are machines in those factories, not laborers. Highly skilled ,repetative work goes to low wage artisans. I point to dental lab work. It is now sent to China where workers live in dormatories and work long hours at low wages. In a communist state you can commander individuals for a life of bleak servitude. Is that our future?
              > I am happy to be able to voice these thoughts with you. This is about the existance of the species and certainly is of existential note. Bill
              >
              > >
              > > Peace and best wishes,
              > > Tom
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: William
              > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              > > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 8:51 AM
              > > Subject: [existlist] Skirmish in the war for civilisation
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > The few that care about world trends understand that the northern ,industrial world is in a life and death struggle with the less developed southern world. Tonight Obama will speak of the end of our combat role in Iraq. That would seem to be good news. Ten years from now we may know if our war was a good or bad investment.
              > > I will not entertain any foolishness about the level of the basic civilasations. Anyone who wants to live in the worlds fleshpots should go there. The last great northern civilasation is coming of age. China is becomming a modern country and that transformation from agrarian pesants to world citizens drives much of the unemployment and recession in the world today. We are making room for them in this new world order. American jobs are now in India and China. Russia and USA are paying the price for this new order with dispressed living standards, alcohol and drug usage and declining birth rates. Personally I think we made a terrible mistake in this agreement but time will tell.
              > > So tonight we will hear what The President thinks about the end of this long war. I will look forward to Toms acessment of the situation. Bill
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • William
              Message 6 of 13 , Sep 1, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
                >
                > Mary and Will,
                >
                > As I said, I don't know where the balance lies between the 2 sides. Certainly, I would prefer to be represented by a powerful union if I were an employee. As long as unionization does not result in the workers being fired, or the work offshored it is good for the workers involved. In the US now, unions are more and more concentrated in government, in effect creating minor aristocracies. One of the reasons the states are in such bad shape is that in the past it was politically expedient to sign very generous pension agreements, that are becoming more crucial as baby boomers hit retirement age. To a large extent, I believe government in all areas tends to be self serving, and in many cases the only thing definitely good about the bureaus and programs is the affluence it brings the employees and corporate contractors.
                >
                > Looking at things from a yin/yang point of view, that when things go too far in one direction, a momentum is created in the other direction. In many ways, Reagan did lots of bad things, but in a sense the Reagan revolution was a reaction to the huge inflation which was brought on by huge union increases going on in the 70s.Air Trafic Controllers had came up rapidly as had many other unions. Obviously, they thought that like before some more money would come from somewhere to pay their demands. Even though Controllers have not had a union in almost 30 years, the top wage for them is about $200,000, not chickenfeed. One of the most unfair things about unions I think is that as I said, at an auto or steel plant a guy pushing a broom makes about 3 times the hourly rate that a guy does at a dollar store warehouse, plus not being subject to the presure to get as much sweeping done.When the dollar store warehouse guy buys a car, he is paying the inflated prices for the auto and steel workers with his low free martket rate.
                >
                > Anyway, I also understand you and Will's position, and for myself like everyone else being minor aristocracy beats the hell out of being an exploited worker.
                >
                > Peace and best wishes,
                > Tom
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: Mary
                > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 4:02 PM
                > Subject: [existlist] Re: Skirmish in the war for civilisation
                > John L. Lewis was born just a few miles south of here. Unionism was a response to industrial inhumanity. Those miners were slaves and the company store was real. From there to jobs that commanded 100 $/hour wages and benifits is a surreal stretch. Business used Pinkerton goons to beat and murder unionists. I know men who fought with crow bars and ax handles against mercinary thugs. When the teamsters hired muscle to fight the pinkertons some ethical line was crossed. The public, sick of the mob began to turn against labor on grounds of corruption. George Bush finished that public relations victory as the southern bible pounders founded their own union free auto industry . Right and wrong were absent from the start as now we may be seeing a return to union viewpoints. Unions like business need regulation and perhaps this next turn around we might put in place decent directives. This is about money and power at the crux of where both are birthed. It is a legitimate place for governmental supervision, it is naturally political and should be. Bill
                >
                >
                > Tom, I see nothing wrong with unions; we need more of them. I think most of the problems we have with unsafe food production would be eliminated with strong labor. We have plenty of federal and international labor codes, but they aren't enforced. Work is a contract, and workers need to bargain from a position of strength, not fear. Mary
                >
                > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Will,
                > >
                > > OK, to be agreeable I will change my statement to between Milton Freidman and Karl Marx.
                > >
                > > Peace,
                > > Tom
                > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > From: eupraxis@
                > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                > > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 9:57 PM
                > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Skirmish in the war for civilisation
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > "I don't know where the balance lies between Kark Marx and Adam Smith"
                > >
                > > The question is what you think separates them. Contrary to popular assumptions, Smith was not a partisan for any kind of avaricious free markets, and all of that. Smith, in fact, considered economics to be a subcategory of ethics (morality).
                > >
                > > Wil
                > >
                > > -----Original Message-----
                > > From: tom <tsmith17_midsouth1@>
                > > To: existlist <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                > > Sent: Tue, Aug 31, 2010 9:48 pm
                > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Skirmish in the war for civilisation
                > >
                > > Bill,
                > >
                > > It seems we are caught betwen the devil and the deep blue sea. Capitalism is in many ways inhuman, but socialism in practice results in money and resources being allocated to those with political clout. At present, the average federal government employee makes about twice what the average employee in private enterprise makes. And this ain't the half of it. A lower or middle management type in many companies is working long hours, under much stress, and always subject to downsizing or being replaced by a younger lower paid person, who then will work long hours, relocate where the company wants him, and might in 20 years be making the salary of the guy he replaced.Then there is the world of the government bureacrat, taking long cofffee breaks, long lunchs, chatting on the phone with friends, and looking at his stocks and reading books on improving his golf swing. The first guy is living in the world of Charles Dickens, and the second in the world of minor aristocracy. Unionize d workers in industrial work have been reduced by globalization as somebody in south America or Korea will do for 4 or 5 dollars an hour what the US auto or steel worker got $30 an hour for, whereas unionized workers are now more concentrated in government. To a large extent, the stimulus money to the states has been a payoff to the Service Employees International Union and the Teachers Union.
                > >
                > > I don't know where the balance lies between Kark Marx and Adam Smith.
                > >
                > > FROM HIPPIES TO HIP HOP
                > >
                > > From hippies to hip hop
                > > From love-ins to drive-by shootings that ain't ever gonna stop
                > > Cats watching ballgames and fights
                > > Chicks watching soap operas and going out to shop
                > > Cats that can't make it as rock stars or pro athletes having to settle on being a gangsta or a cop
                > >
                > > GROOVY MAN
                > > www.thecoolcat.net
                > >
                > > Peace and best wishes,
                > > Tom
                > >
                > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > From: William
                > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                > > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 1:22 PM
                > > Subject: [existlist] Re: Skirmish in the war for civilisation
                > >
                > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Bill,
                > > >
                > > > My assessment of the situation is that both Iraq and Afghanistan were bogus wars to start with. The US allegedly went into Afghanistan to hunt Bin Laden, but a few years later Bush admitted he hadn't given Bin Laden any thought in a long time. The US allegedly went into Iraq because of wmds. Saddam was finally allowing UN inspectors, but then Bush pulled inspectors and attacked anyway. This is like a big thug in a prison yard or street corner making up an excuse to beat up much smaller weaker guy. During Reagan's time, Iraq was taken off the terrorists list, and there is a picture of Rumsfeld shaking hands with him. Reagan also met with Taliban and compared them to US founders. Like Orwell's 1984, good nations and bad nations change overnight. I think the Bush administration was at least complicit in 911 to get public opinion behind mideast aggressiion.
                > > >
                > > > When you and I were growing up, made in Japan meant cheap but shoddy. By the 70s, Japanese autos started setting a new standard for durability and dependability. We thought technical ability was a province of the west, particularly the US. However, iq tests now show people of eastern descent do better as a group on spacial relations, closely connected with aptitude for science and engineering. Globalization is a leveling force, good for previously very poor 3rd world nations and bad for previously affluent US and probably Europe. From the mid 30s onward, a minor aristocracy developed among union members working for US auto, steel, and tire companies. There were 3 or 4 US corporations that made these products, and one union of auto workers, steel workers, and rubber workers who bargained with them.It was easier for companies to give in to unions and pass cost on to consumers than face a strike.With electronics, you often notice that as productivity improves, prices go d own. In the days of 1 big union and 3 or 4 big companies, workers got all productivity incrreases in wages and benefits. A guy could push a broom at an auto or steel plant, and make 3 times the rate he'd make pushing it somewhere else. As globalization replaced high paid industrial union workers, the war on drugs increased the numbers of well paid cops and jailers, the new minor aristocracy. It is human to enjoy being in an aristocracy, but I think the book and movie entitled Gone With The Wind shows how privileges can disappear.
                > > >
                > > > I recall a poem I read in freshman English, which I guess was written around end of 19th or early 20th century recounting the historical centers of civilizations moving westward from Asia to Greece, then Rome, then UK and then to US. It predicted the completion of the circle, and in the last 36 or 40 years its happening.
                > > >Tom, I think your world view is most exact and very broad. I really do not know who came up with globalisation, it seems in hindsight an idealistic venture that no western worker would support. I do know Clinton liked and understood it. I fear he knew and allowed the dismantling and whosale movement of the means of production to foreign shores and foreign workers. Clinton and Bush compleated the great westward march of modernity that now ends in China.
                > > The power clubs of the twentieth century came apart of their own mass. Bush killed labor and as a republican business man it could be said,that was his job. The unions were bloated and our more left leaning president seems to give them little notice except at election time.Business organisations and other power clubs are similarly shattered. I point to the American investment industry and Citigroup particularly as a brutal scalping of people and worth. I actually fear politics itself may be on the block as an outmoded power club. It may be that hyper capitalism and evolution with its tenant, survival of the fittest, may be axiomatic.
                > > The European socialist model remains in the background. With many members of the european economic union all but bankrupt that system seems anything but bullet proof. Their long ,paid vacations and low retirement ages seem odd partners in a unionless,low wage work force.
                > > Yesterday a business economist said there is no market for unskilled labor in this country. You ,Tom, being from Ten. know cars are nolonger built by people ,there are machines in those factories, not laborers. Highly skilled ,repetative work goes to low wage artisans. I point to dental lab work. It is now sent to China where workers live in dormatories and work long hours at low wages. In a communist state you can commander individuals for a life of bleak servitude. Is that our future?
                > > I am happy to be able to voice these thoughts with you. This is about the existance of the species and certainly is of existential note. Bill
                > >
                > > >
                > > > Peace and best wishes,
                > > > Tom
                > > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > > From: William
                > > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 8:51 AM
                > > > Subject: [existlist] Skirmish in the war for civilisation
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > The few that care about world trends understand that the northern ,industrial world is in a life and death struggle with the less developed southern world. Tonight Obama will speak of the end of our combat role in Iraq. That would seem to be good news. Ten years from now we may know if our war was a good or bad investment.
                > > > I will not entertain any foolishness about the level of the basic civilasations. Anyone who wants to live in the worlds fleshpots should go there. The last great northern civilasation is coming of age. China is becomming a modern country and that transformation from agrarian pesants to world citizens drives much of the unemployment and recession in the world today. We are making room for them in this new world order. American jobs are now in India and China. Russia and USA are paying the price for this new order with dispressed living standards, alcohol and drug usage and declining birth rates. Personally I think we made a terrible mistake in this agreement but time will tell.
                > > > So tonight we will hear what The President thinks about the end of this long war. I will look forward to Toms acessment of the situation. Bill
                > > >
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              • tom
                Bill and all, It is hard to arrive at a good solution. Ideally, fairness and balance are desirable, but historically as power shifts, it doesn t move toward
                Message 7 of 13 , Sep 1, 2010
                • 0 Attachment
                  Bill and all,

                  It is hard to arrive at a good solution. Ideally, fairness and balance are desirable, but historically as power shifts, it doesn't move toward balance, but toward the underdogs being the top dogs. Like you said, the mine workers went from being exploited to making as high as a $100 an hour. As for government supervision, the only problem is that government supervision don't mean fairness, but rather another area up to payoff campaign contributions and bribes. If both corporations and unions were prohibited from campaign contributions it would be good.The California Correction Officers Union is a great example of a union good for employess, but bad for everybody else. Since the early 80s, they have have gone from averaging about $14,000 a year to about $80,000 a year. They spend about a1/3 of dues lobbying Sacramento for raises, and more importantly laws that increase the numbers of people in jail. The land of the free is in reality the nation with the highest incarceration rate in the world. Even as violent crimes have declined, the incarceration rate has continued to climb. California now spends more on prisons than education.

                  Theoretically, government can be envisioned as one thing, but in practice it tends to be self serving; and the perpetuation of jobs is the real motive. In both the 80s and 90s, there were congressional proclamations for America drug free by a date a few years away. If this was obtainable, the DEA, prison guards unions, probation officers etc. would not like it. The elimation of illegal drugs for the DEA would be like hunters killing all the game in the forest.

                  Peace,
                  Tom


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: William
                  To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 8:21 PM
                  Subject: [existlist] Re: Skirmish in the war for civilisation





                  --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Mary and Will,
                  >
                  > As I said, I don't know where the balance lies between the 2 sides. Certainly, I would prefer to be represented by a powerful union if I were an employee. As long as unionization does not result in the workers being fired, or the work offshored it is good for the workers involved. In the US now, unions are more and more concentrated in government, in effect creating minor aristocracies. One of the reasons the states are in such bad shape is that in the past it was politically expedient to sign very generous pension agreements, that are becoming more crucial as baby boomers hit retirement age. To a large extent, I believe government in all areas tends to be self serving, and in many cases the only thing definitely good about the bureaus and programs is the affluence it brings the employees and corporate contractors.
                  >
                  > Looking at things from a yin/yang point of view, that when things go too far in one direction, a momentum is created in the other direction. In many ways, Reagan did lots of bad things, but in a sense the Reagan revolution was a reaction to the huge inflation which was brought on by huge union increases going on in the 70s.Air Trafic Controllers had came up rapidly as had many other unions. Obviously, they thought that like before some more money would come from somewhere to pay their demands. Even though Controllers have not had a union in almost 30 years, the top wage for them is about $200,000, not chickenfeed. One of the most unfair things about unions I think is that as I said, at an auto or steel plant a guy pushing a broom makes about 3 times the hourly rate that a guy does at a dollar store warehouse, plus not being subject to the presure to get as much sweeping done.When the dollar store warehouse guy buys a car, he is paying the inflated prices for the auto and steel workers with his low free martket rate.
                  >
                  > Anyway, I also understand you and Will's position, and for myself like everyone else being minor aristocracy beats the hell out of being an exploited worker.
                  >
                  > Peace and best wishes,
                  > Tom
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: Mary
                  > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 4:02 PM
                  > Subject: [existlist] Re: Skirmish in the war for civilisation
                  > John L. Lewis was born just a few miles south of here. Unionism was a response to industrial inhumanity. Those miners were slaves and the company store was real. From there to jobs that commanded 100 $/hour wages and benifits is a surreal stretch. Business used Pinkerton goons to beat and murder unionists. I know men who fought with crow bars and ax handles against mercinary thugs. When the teamsters hired muscle to fight the pinkertons some ethical line was crossed. The public, sick of the mob began to turn against labor on grounds of corruption. George Bush finished that public relations victory as the southern bible pounders founded their own union free auto industry . Right and wrong were absent from the start as now we may be seeing a return to union viewpoints. Unions like business need regulation and perhaps this next turn around we might put in place decent directives. This is about money and power at the crux of where both are birthed. It is a legitimate place for governmental supervision, it is naturally political and should be. Bill
                  >
                  >
                  > Tom, I see nothing wrong with unions; we need more of them. I think most of the problems we have with unsafe food production would be eliminated with strong labor. We have plenty of federal and international labor codes, but they aren't enforced. Work is a contract, and workers need to bargain from a position of strength, not fear. Mary
                  >
                  > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Will,
                  > >
                  > > OK, to be agreeable I will change my statement to between Milton Freidman and Karl Marx.
                  > >
                  > > Peace,
                  > > Tom
                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > From: eupraxis@
                  > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 9:57 PM
                  > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Skirmish in the war for civilisation
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > "I don't know where the balance lies between Kark Marx and Adam Smith"
                  > >
                  > > The question is what you think separates them. Contrary to popular assumptions, Smith was not a partisan for any kind of avaricious free markets, and all of that. Smith, in fact, considered economics to be a subcategory of ethics (morality).
                  > >
                  > > Wil
                  > >
                  > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > From: tom <tsmith17_midsouth1@>
                  > > To: existlist <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
                  > > Sent: Tue, Aug 31, 2010 9:48 pm
                  > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Skirmish in the war for civilisation
                  > >
                  > > Bill,
                  > >
                  > > It seems we are caught betwen the devil and the deep blue sea. Capitalism is in many ways inhuman, but socialism in practice results in money and resources being allocated to those with political clout. At present, the average federal government employee makes about twice what the average employee in private enterprise makes. And this ain't the half of it. A lower or middle management type in many companies is working long hours, under much stress, and always subject to downsizing or being replaced by a younger lower paid person, who then will work long hours, relocate where the company wants him, and might in 20 years be making the salary of the guy he replaced.Then there is the world of the government bureacrat, taking long cofffee breaks, long lunchs, chatting on the phone with friends, and looking at his stocks and reading books on improving his golf swing. The first guy is living in the world of Charles Dickens, and the second in the world of minor aristocracy. Unionize d workers in industrial work have been reduced by globalization as somebody in south America or Korea will do for 4 or 5 dollars an hour what the US auto or steel worker got $30 an hour for, whereas unionized workers are now more concentrated in government. To a large extent, the stimulus money to the states has been a payoff to the Service Employees International Union and the Teachers Union.
                  > >
                  > > I don't know where the balance lies between Kark Marx and Adam Smith.
                  > >
                  > > FROM HIPPIES TO HIP HOP
                  > >
                  > > From hippies to hip hop
                  > > From love-ins to drive-by shootings that ain't ever gonna stop
                  > > Cats watching ballgames and fights
                  > > Chicks watching soap operas and going out to shop
                  > > Cats that can't make it as rock stars or pro athletes having to settle on being a gangsta or a cop
                  > >
                  > > GROOVY MAN
                  > > www.thecoolcat.net
                  > >
                  > > Peace and best wishes,
                  > > Tom
                  > >
                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > From: William
                  > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 1:22 PM
                  > > Subject: [existlist] Re: Skirmish in the war for civilisation
                  > >
                  > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Bill,
                  > > >
                  > > > My assessment of the situation is that both Iraq and Afghanistan were bogus wars to start with. The US allegedly went into Afghanistan to hunt Bin Laden, but a few years later Bush admitted he hadn't given Bin Laden any thought in a long time. The US allegedly went into Iraq because of wmds. Saddam was finally allowing UN inspectors, but then Bush pulled inspectors and attacked anyway. This is like a big thug in a prison yard or street corner making up an excuse to beat up much smaller weaker guy. During Reagan's time, Iraq was taken off the terrorists list, and there is a picture of Rumsfeld shaking hands with him. Reagan also met with Taliban and compared them to US founders. Like Orwell's 1984, good nations and bad nations change overnight. I think the Bush administration was at least complicit in 911 to get public opinion behind mideast aggressiion.
                  > > >
                  > > > When you and I were growing up, made in Japan meant cheap but shoddy. By the 70s, Japanese autos started setting a new standard for durability and dependability. We thought technical ability was a province of the west, particularly the US. However, iq tests now show people of eastern descent do better as a group on spacial relations, closely connected with aptitude for science and engineering. Globalization is a leveling force, good for previously very poor 3rd world nations and bad for previously affluent US and probably Europe. From the mid 30s onward, a minor aristocracy developed among union members working for US auto, steel, and tire companies. There were 3 or 4 US corporations that made these products, and one union of auto workers, steel workers, and rubber workers who bargained with them.It was easier for companies to give in to unions and pass cost on to consumers than face a strike.With electronics, you often notice that as productivity improves, prices go d own. In the days of 1 big union and 3 or 4 big companies, workers got all productivity incrreases in wages and benefits. A guy could push a broom at an auto or steel plant, and make 3 times the rate he'd make pushing it somewhere else. As globalization replaced high paid industrial union workers, the war on drugs increased the numbers of well paid cops and jailers, the new minor aristocracy. It is human to enjoy being in an aristocracy, but I think the book and movie entitled Gone With The Wind shows how privileges can disappear.
                  > > >
                  > > > I recall a poem I read in freshman English, which I guess was written around end of 19th or early 20th century recounting the historical centers of civilizations moving westward from Asia to Greece, then Rome, then UK and then to US. It predicted the completion of the circle, and in the last 36 or 40 years its happening.
                  > > >Tom, I think your world view is most exact and very broad. I really do not know who came up with globalisation, it seems in hindsight an idealistic venture that no western worker would support. I do know Clinton liked and understood it. I fear he knew and allowed the dismantling and whosale movement of the means of production to foreign shores and foreign workers. Clinton and Bush compleated the great westward march of modernity that now ends in China.
                  > > The power clubs of the twentieth century came apart of their own mass. Bush killed labor and as a republican business man it could be said,that was his job. The unions were bloated and our more left leaning president seems to give them little notice except at election time.Business organisations and other power clubs are similarly shattered. I point to the American investment industry and Citigroup particularly as a brutal scalping of people and worth. I actually fear politics itself may be on the block as an outmoded power club. It may be that hyper capitalism and evolution with its tenant, survival of the fittest, may be axiomatic.
                  > > The European socialist model remains in the background. With many members of the european economic union all but bankrupt that system seems anything but bullet proof. Their long ,paid vacations and low retirement ages seem odd partners in a unionless,low wage work force.
                  > > Yesterday a business economist said there is no market for unskilled labor in this country. You ,Tom, being from Ten. know cars are nolonger built by people ,there are machines in those factories, not laborers. Highly skilled ,repetative work goes to low wage artisans. I point to dental lab work. It is now sent to China where workers live in dormatories and work long hours at low wages. In a communist state you can commander individuals for a life of bleak servitude. Is that our future?
                  > > I am happy to be able to voice these thoughts with you. This is about the existance of the species and certainly is of existential note. Bill
                  > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Peace and best wishes,
                  > > > Tom
                  > > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > > From: William
                  > > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 8:51 AM
                  > > > Subject: [existlist] Skirmish in the war for civilisation
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > The few that care about world trends understand that the northern ,industrial world is in a life and death struggle with the less developed southern world. Tonight Obama will speak of the end of our combat role in Iraq. That would seem to be good news. Ten years from now we may know if our war was a good or bad investment.
                  > > > I will not entertain any foolishness about the level of the basic civilasations. Anyone who wants to live in the worlds fleshpots should go there. The last great northern civilasation is coming of age. China is becomming a modern country and that transformation from agrarian pesants to world citizens drives much of the unemployment and recession in the world today. We are making room for them in this new world order. American jobs are now in India and China. Russia and USA are paying the price for this new order with dispressed living standards, alcohol and drug usage and declining birth rates. Personally I think we made a terrible mistake in this agreement but time will tell.
                  > > > So tonight we will hear what The President thinks about the end of this long war. I will look forward to Toms acessment of the situation. Bill
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
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