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Re:{existlist} understanding

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  • tom
    Polly, You wrote I think there is also the possibility of an understanding of ethical cause and effect. And that is simply the realisation that however one
    Message 1 of 8 , Jul 4, 2010
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      Polly,

      You wrote

      I think there is also the possibility of an understanding of ethical
      cause and effect. And that is simply the realisation that however one
      feels the world is treating them is a product of how one treats the
      world.

      I am not sure how true that is. I am not denying any truth to it, but I do suspect that many people for various reasons were often at the wrong place at the wrong time, and got treated very badly without necesarily having a history of doing much evils to others.


      Peace,
      'Tom

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Herman
      Hi Tom, ... Thanks for your thoughts. It is always good to reconsider in the light of other opinions. You are right, of course, all sorts of crap happens to
      Message 2 of 8 , Jul 5, 2010
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        Hi Tom,

        On 5 July 2010 10:46, tom <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
        > Polly,
        >
        > You wrote
        >
        > I think there is also the possibility of an understanding of ethical
        > cause and effect. And that is simply the realisation that however one
        > feels the world is treating them is a product of how one treats the
        > world.
        >
        > I am not sure how true that is. I am not denying any truth to it, but I do suspect that many people for various reasons were often at the wrong place at the wrong time, and got treated very badly without necesarily having a history of doing much evils to others.
        >
        >

        Thanks for your thoughts. It is always good to reconsider in the light
        of other opinions.

        You are right, of course, all sorts of crap happens to good folks. But
        what about the following?

        Do you think that a person of general good will would experience some
        unwanted event in the same way that an ill-tempered, impatient
        malevolent sort of person would? I suspect that the second person
        would much more readily apply the label "being treated very badly", as
        you say, to his own situations. I am, of course, open to suggestions
        otherwise.

        Polly
      • tom
        Polly, As I said, I didn t deny any truth to your statement, and agree that ill tempered types would probably be more likely to think of themselves as ill
        Message 3 of 8 , Jul 5, 2010
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          Polly,

          As I said, I didn't deny any truth to your statement, and agree that ill tempered types would probably be more likely to think of themselves as ill treated. My dad used to tell a story about 2 guys who moved to a small town. The first asked as local to tell him what kind of people were the residents. The local asked him how the people were in his previous town. He said they were mostly a bunch of backbiters and jerks. The local said that you will probably find the people here the same. A bit later another guy shows up and asks the same local the same question, to which the local asks him about his previous neighbors, and he says they were very helpful and kind, and the local says to him that he will find the people here the same.

          I see your point, but I wanted to add that that some pretty nice people may for various reasons be treated badly.

          Peace,
          Tom
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Herman
          To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 7:28 AM
          Subject: Re: [existlist] Re:{existlist} understanding



          Hi Tom,

          On 5 July 2010 10:46, tom <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
          > Polly,
          >
          > You wrote
          >
          > I think there is also the possibility of an understanding of ethical
          > cause and effect. And that is simply the realisation that however one
          > feels the world is treating them is a product of how one treats the
          > world.
          >
          > I am not sure how true that is. I am not denying any truth to it, but I do suspect that many people for various reasons were often at the wrong place at the wrong time, and got treated very badly without necesarily having a history of doing much evils to others.
          >
          >

          Thanks for your thoughts. It is always good to reconsider in the light
          of other opinions.

          You are right, of course, all sorts of crap happens to good folks. But
          what about the following?

          Do you think that a person of general good will would experience some
          unwanted event in the same way that an ill-tempered, impatient
          malevolent sort of person would? I suspect that the second person
          would much more readily apply the label "being treated very badly", as
          you say, to his own situations. I am, of course, open to suggestions
          otherwise.

          Polly




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Herman
          Hi Tom, ... That is a great story. I ll have to remember it. ... True enough. Nelson Mandela comes to mind. Locked up for how many years, beaten by his
          Message 4 of 8 , Jul 5, 2010
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            Hi Tom,

            On 5 July 2010 22:43, tom <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
            > Polly,
            >
            > As I said, I didn't deny any truth to your statement, and agree that ill tempered types would probably be more likely to think of themselves as ill treated. My dad used to tell a story about 2 guys who moved to a small town. The first asked as local to tell him what kind of people were the residents. The local asked him how the people were in his previous town. He said they were mostly a bunch of backbiters and jerks. The local said that you will probably find the people here the same. A bit later another guy shows up and asks the same local the same question, to which the local asks him about his previous neighbors, and he says they were very helpful and kind, and the local says to him that he will find the people here the same.
            >

            That is a great story. I'll have to remember it.

            > I see your point, but I wanted to add that that some pretty nice  people may for various reasons be treated badly.
            >

            True enough. Nelson Mandela comes to mind. Locked up for how many
            years, beaten by his captors, and not an ounce of bitterness in the
            man. Marvelous indeed.

            Polly


            > Peace,
            > Tom
            >  ----- Original Message -----
            >  From: Herman
            >  To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            >  Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 7:28 AM
            >  Subject: Re: [existlist] Re:{existlist} understanding
            >
            >
            >
            >  Hi Tom,
            >
            >  On 5 July 2010 10:46, tom <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
            >  > Polly,
            >  >
            >  > You wrote
            >  >
            >  > I think there is also the possibility of an understanding of ethical
            >  > cause and effect. And that is simply the realisation that however one
            >  > feels the world is treating them is a product of how one treats the
            >  > world.
            >  >
            >  > I am not sure how true that is. I am not denying any truth to it, but I do suspect that many people for various reasons were often at the wrong place at the wrong time, and got treated very badly without necesarily having a history of doing much evils to others.
            >  >
            >  >
            >
            >  Thanks for your thoughts. It is always good to reconsider in the light
            >  of other opinions.
            >
            >  You are right, of course, all sorts of crap happens to good folks. But
            >  what about the following?
            >
            >  Do you think that a person of general good will would experience some
            >  unwanted event in the same way that an ill-tempered, impatient
            >  malevolent sort of person would? I suspect that the second person
            >  would much more readily apply the label "being treated very badly", as
            >  you say, to his own situations. I am, of course, open to suggestions
            >  otherwise.
            >
            >  Polly
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining nothing!
            >
            > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Brent Irvine
            I believe this is why Buddhists separate pain from suffering. They feel that life itself is painful, and suffering is your subjective reaction to it.
            Message 5 of 8 , Jul 5, 2010
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              I believe this is why Buddhists separate "pain" from "suffering." They feel that life itself is painful, and suffering is your subjective reaction to it. Their realization that there are many instances where someone does a number of awful (or wonderful) things, and they are not rewarded or punished in a way that seems fair - and created the concept of multiple lifetime karma. Even the Judeo Christian tradition recognizes this - the entire boko of Job seems to me to be an attempt to reconcile the nature of God to the problem of evil (the conclusion of the book, I find, is that a relationship to god in the face of pain is not a transactional one.).

              But your example was talking about something very much like Karma, but you qualified it with the mental state someone was in based upon what he or she did. Do you feel the same way if we were to separate the "pain" form the "suffering?"



              ________________________________
              From: Herman <hhofmeister@...>
              To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Mon, July 5, 2010 8:28:37 AM
              Subject: Re: [existlist] Re:{existlist} understanding


              Hi Tom,

              On 5 July 2010 10:46, tom <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
              > Polly,
              >
              > You wrote
              >
              > I think there is also the possibility of an understanding of ethical
              > cause and effect. And that is simply the realisation that however one
              > feels the world is treating them is a product of how one treats the
              > world.
              >
              > I am not sure how true that is. I am not denying any truth to it, but I do suspect that many people for various reasons were often at the wrong place at the wrong time, and got treated very badly without necesarily having a history of doing much evils to others.
              >
              >

              Thanks for your thoughts. It is always good to reconsider in the light
              of other opinions.

              You are right, of course, all sorts of crap happens to good folks. But
              what about the following?

              Do you think that a person of general good will would experience some
              unwanted event in the same way that an ill-tempered, impatient
              malevolent sort of person would? I suspect that the second person
              would much more readily apply the label "being treated very badly", as
              you say, to his own situations. I am, of course, open to suggestions
              otherwise.

              Polly



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • tom
              Brent, Herman, and all, My experience and observation indicates to me some power or powers operating in life, but I see little to indicate that he,she or it is
              Message 6 of 8 , Jul 5, 2010
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                Brent, Herman, and all,

                My experience and observation indicates to me some power or powers operating in life, but I see little to indicate that he,she or it is particularly just or benevolent. It seems to me like temporal powers, powerful but more bad than good. It would seem to me more like a scientist experimenting on lab rats than anything I could love or trust.

                Peace,
                Tom
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Brent Irvine
                To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 1:37 PM
                Subject: Re: [existlist] Re:{existlist} understanding



                I believe this is why Buddhists separate "pain" from "suffering." They feel that life itself is painful, and suffering is your subjective reaction to it. Their realization that there are many instances where someone does a number of awful (or wonderful) things, and they are not rewarded or punished in a way that seems fair - and created the concept of multiple lifetime karma. Even the Judeo Christian tradition recognizes this - the entire boko of Job seems to me to be an attempt to reconcile the nature of God to the problem of evil (the conclusion of the book, I find, is that a relationship to god in the face of pain is not a transactional one.).

                But your example was talking about something very much like Karma, but you qualified it with the mental state someone was in based upon what he or she did. Do you feel the same way if we were to separate the "pain" form the "suffering?"

                ________________________________
                From: Herman <hhofmeister@...>
                To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Mon, July 5, 2010 8:28:37 AM
                Subject: Re: [existlist] Re:{existlist} understanding

                Hi Tom,

                On 5 July 2010 10:46, tom <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
                > Polly,
                >
                > You wrote
                >
                > I think there is also the possibility of an understanding of ethical
                > cause and effect. And that is simply the realisation that however one
                > feels the world is treating them is a product of how one treats the
                > world.
                >
                > I am not sure how true that is. I am not denying any truth to it, but I do suspect that many people for various reasons were often at the wrong place at the wrong time, and got treated very badly without necesarily having a history of doing much evils to others.
                >
                >

                Thanks for your thoughts. It is always good to reconsider in the light
                of other opinions.

                You are right, of course, all sorts of crap happens to good folks. But
                what about the following?

                Do you think that a person of general good will would experience some
                unwanted event in the same way that an ill-tempered, impatient
                malevolent sort of person would? I suspect that the second person
                would much more readily apply the label "being treated very badly", as
                you say, to his own situations. I am, of course, open to suggestions
                otherwise.

                Polly

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • shadowed_statue
                Tom, I m not quite clear on what or whom you mean by temporal powers . Are there any such, apart from human beings? If you mean some particular individuals
                Message 7 of 8 , Jul 5, 2010
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                  Tom,

                  I'm not quite clear on what or whom you mean by 'temporal powers'. Are there any such, apart from human beings? If you mean some particular individuals or groups, are they deliberately, in your eyes, experimenting on others, like a scientist in a lab? From an existential standpoint, there is the individual, thousands or millions of us, each able to take - or evade - responsibility where responsibility is possible and true to the given situation. In many instances in life, probably the only choice is between suffering pain and achieving some kind of victory over the temptation merely to suffer (to borrow Brent's terminology, taken from buddhistic sources). If the passion to take responsibility were a more central passion in human life than it appears to be, there would be much less opportunity for manipulators to gain the power to crush individual and social effort.

                  Louise

                  --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Brent, Herman, and all,
                  >
                  > My experience and observation indicates to me some power or powers operating in life, but I see little to indicate that he,she or it is particularly just or benevolent. It seems to me like temporal powers, powerful but more bad than good. It would seem to me more like a scientist experimenting on lab rats than anything I could love or trust.
                  >
                  > Peace,
                  > Tom
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: Brent Irvine
                  > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 1:37 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re:{existlist} understanding
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > I believe this is why Buddhists separate "pain" from "suffering." They feel that life itself is painful, and suffering is your subjective reaction to it. Their realization that there are many instances where someone does a number of awful (or wonderful) things, and they are not rewarded or punished in a way that seems fair - and created the concept of multiple lifetime karma. Even the Judeo Christian tradition recognizes this - the entire boko of Job seems to me to be an attempt to reconcile the nature of God to the problem of evil (the conclusion of the book, I find, is that a relationship to god in the face of pain is not a transactional one.).
                  >
                  > But your example was talking about something very much like Karma, but you qualified it with the mental state someone was in based upon what he or she did. Do you feel the same way if we were to separate the "pain" form the "suffering?"
                  >
                  > ________________________________
                  > From: Herman <hhofmeister@...>
                  > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Mon, July 5, 2010 8:28:37 AM
                  > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re:{existlist} understanding
                  >
                  > Hi Tom,
                  >
                  > On 5 July 2010 10:46, tom <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
                  > > Polly,
                  > >
                  > > You wrote
                  > >
                  > > I think there is also the possibility of an understanding of ethical
                  > > cause and effect. And that is simply the realisation that however one
                  > > feels the world is treating them is a product of how one treats the
                  > > world.
                  > >
                  > > I am not sure how true that is. I am not denying any truth to it, but I do suspect that many people for various reasons were often at the wrong place at the wrong time, and got treated very badly without necesarily having a history of doing much evils to others.
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > Thanks for your thoughts. It is always good to reconsider in the light
                  > of other opinions.
                  >
                  > You are right, of course, all sorts of crap happens to good folks. But
                  > what about the following?
                  >
                  > Do you think that a person of general good will would experience some
                  > unwanted event in the same way that an ill-tempered, impatient
                  > malevolent sort of person would? I suspect that the second person
                  > would much more readily apply the label "being treated very badly", as
                  > you say, to his own situations. I am, of course, open to suggestions
                  > otherwise.
                  >
                  > Polly
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • Herman
                  Hi Brent, ... That is a very useful distinction to make, between pain and suffering. No-one can avoid physical pain, or pleasure, regardless of their
                  Message 8 of 8 , Jul 5, 2010
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                    Hi Brent,

                    On 6 July 2010 04:37, Brent Irvine <brent.irvine@...> wrote:
                    > I believe this is why Buddhists separate "pain" from "suffering."  They feel that life itself is painful, and suffering is your subjective reaction to it.  Their realization that there are many instances where someone does a number of awful (or wonderful) things, and they are not rewarded or punished in a way that seems fair - and created the concept of multiple lifetime karma.  Even the Judeo Christian tradition recognizes this - the entire boko of Job seems to me to be an attempt to reconcile the nature of God to the problem of evil (the conclusion of the book, I find, is that a relationship to god in the face of pain is not a transactional one.).
                    >
                    > But your example was talking about something very much like Karma, but you qualified it with the mental state someone was in based upon what he or she did.  Do you feel the same way if we were to separate the "pain" form the "suffering?"
                    >

                    That is a very useful distinction to make, between pain and suffering.
                    No-one can avoid physical pain, or pleasure, regardless of their
                    disposition/intention towards the world. My assertions are limited
                    only to the "suffering" side.

                    Polly

                    >
                    >
                    > ________________________________
                    > From: Herman <hhofmeister@...>
                    > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Mon, July 5, 2010 8:28:37 AM
                    > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re:{existlist} understanding
                    >
                    >
                    > Hi Tom,
                    >
                    > On 5 July 2010 10:46, tom <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
                    >> Polly,
                    >>
                    >> You wrote
                    >>
                    >> I think there is also the possibility of an understanding of ethical
                    >> cause and effect. And that is simply the realisation that however one
                    >> feels the world is treating them is a product of how one treats the
                    >> world.
                    >>
                    >> I am not sure how true that is. I am not denying any truth to it, but I do suspect that many people for various reasons were often at the wrong place at the wrong time, and got treated very badly without necesarily having a history of doing much evils to others.
                    >>
                    >>
                    >
                    > Thanks for your thoughts. It is always good to reconsider in the light
                    > of other opinions.
                    >
                    > You are right, of course, all sorts of crap happens to good folks. But
                    > what about the following?
                    >
                    > Do you think that a person of general good will would experience some
                    > unwanted event in the same way that an ill-tempered, impatient
                    > malevolent sort of person would? I suspect that the second person
                    > would much more readily apply the label "being treated very badly", as
                    > you say, to his own situations. I am, of course, open to suggestions
                    > otherwise.
                    >
                    > Polly
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining nothing!
                    >
                    > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
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