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Re: [existlist] To the party

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  • eupraxis@aol.com
    Thanks Brent, Yeah, I hate anything with dictatorship in the title myself. No one uses that phrase anymore, including hardcore pinkos. Wil ... From: Brent
    Message 1 of 11 , Jul 1, 2010
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      Thanks Brent,

      Yeah, I hate anything with dictatorship in the title myself. No one uses that phrase anymore, including hardcore pinkos.

      Wil



      -----Original Message-----
      From: Brent Irvine <brent.irvine@...>
      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:12 pm
      Subject: Re: [existlist] To the party







      I still have the book - I will have to get home to see which one it may be. As I read several books along Marxian and Rand/Libertarian lines around that time (including non-economic books one of which was "The Myth of Sisyphus"), it is entirely possible/probably in the ensuing 23 years my memory may be muddled about the exact attribution. Nevertheless, I do recall drawing the conclusion that a "dictatorship of the Proletariat" doesn't bode well for an unpopular person (such as I was) in High School in a rather direct way - whether someone agrees or disagrees with this 23 year old conclusion is certainly one choice one has - though when one has the angst and alienation of a High Schooler, believing one's fate is in the hands directly of the majority of people around one (remember as a 17-18 year old, I was thinking "execution or labor camp")- does not make one feel confident in this philosophy. I would pose the question, that while Marx may not have
      said it - it *is* one of the principle tenants of the Communist Revolution, no?

      One thing that occurs to me is that in some cases - such as in the US - you cannot draw clearly the difference between Capitalist and Worker. With the stock market, mutual fund, and pension funds - many many people (nearly all) of all social levels are both capitalists because they own stock directly or indirectly - and are also workers because they also sell their labor as well. How would one make such a separation in a meaningful way without being arbitrary? I seem to recall the Soviet's eventually persecuted the people they labeled as "Kulaks" who were successful peasant-farmers that don't strike me as a typical "top hat" Capitalist.

      ________________________________
      From: "eupraxis@..." <eupraxis@...>
      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thu, July 1, 2010 2:52:38 PM
      Subject: Re: [existlist] To the party

      Bill,

      I've spoken on this stuff before (socialism, communism, etc.), but I would not mind having another go at it, if you would like.

      As far as the bad citation goes, maybe our friend read something else as a 17 year old and just thought it was Capital? The thing is, for me the text is everything. You can interpret it any way you like; that's fair game. But if you say that Marx, etc., says XYZ in this or that text, and if that is the reason why you say you took issue with that text, then XYZ better be actually there.

      Wil

      -----Original Message-----
      From: William <v.valleywestdental@...>
      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thu, Jul 1, 2010 1:23 pm
      Subject: [existlist] To the party

      If you postulate that Lenin did or did not say this or that or Marx did not say this or that is irrelevant when terms like "dictatorship of the proletariate" are universally accepted as communist doctrine.
      Again I expect the old dodge that real communism has never been tried. The christians use that one and that have been fucking things up for millenia.
      Wil might do better by telling us what he thinks work with communism. How can it lead to a working system of commerce and government? If Marx and Lenin have been so maligned without cause what of their ideas have working promise. The dictator of Nicaragua booms and postures but continues to restrict and overpower his commrads with comfescation of assets and false democracy. Blame Teo Sam but time takes the despot closer to Castro than Jefferson.
      Decriying capitalism rings even more to the tin ear as China trys to impose the system within their boundaries. That the tanks can sweep in at any moment without recourse shows the despot Maoism still in control with all power coming from the barrel of a gun.
      When you espose Marx how do you ignore the millions slaughtered in name of his ideas. Yet little of communism seems to survive. Ask the germans who tore down that wall. Ask the Poles who retook Gedanske. I see failure and regression as the fruits of Marxist doctrine. Bill

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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • William
      ... I would speak to the role of despotism of a marxist origin in the world we inhabit today. Is a Tokarev SVT40 a communist weapon when the same factory that
      Message 2 of 11 , Jul 1, 2010
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        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote:
        >
        > Bill,
        >
        > I've spoken on this stuff before (socialism, communism, etc.), but I would not mind having another go at it, if you would like.
        >
        > As far as the bad citation goes, maybe our friend read something else as a 17 year old and just thought it was Capital? The thing is, for me the text is everything. You can interpret it any way you like; that's fair game. But if you say that Marx, etc., says XYZ in this or that text, and if that is the reason why you say you took issue with that text, then XYZ better be actually there.
        >
        > Wil
        > Wil, I understand you like to argue Ex Libra. If the text considered is The Declaration of Independance I might agree to a close reading. With Das Capital or Mein Kampth I will not play such a game. Just because something got into print does not make me read it . I will not reread Das Capital, I would have no stomach for it. I fought those bastards in the cold war and will not champion their literature by reading it.
        I would speak to the role of despotism of a marxist origin in the world we inhabit today. Is a Tokarev SVT40 a communist weapon when the same factory that made it for the Red Army is selling it to terrorists? I see Marx as a failed philosopher who lives on to plague our modern world. That you want him remembered might take me to the recent round up of russian deep moles. What were those clowns doing? If you can get me a date with Anna Chapman I will definitely play. Bill
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: William <v.valleywestdental@...>
        > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Thu, Jul 1, 2010 1:23 pm
        > Subject: [existlist] To the party
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > If you postulate that Lenin did or did not say this or that or Marx did not say this or that is irrelevant when terms like "dictatorship of the proletariate" are universally accepted as communist doctrine.
        > Again I expect the old dodge that real communism has never been tried. The christians use that one and that have been fucking things up for millenia.
        > Wil might do better by telling us what he thinks work with communism. How can it lead to a working system of commerce and government? If Marx and Lenin have been so maligned without cause what of their ideas have working promise. The dictator of Nicaragua booms and postures but continues to restrict and overpower his commrads with comfescation of assets and false democracy. Blame Teo Sam but time takes the despot closer to Castro than Jefferson.
        > Decriying capitalism rings even more to the tin ear as China trys to impose the system within their boundaries. That the tanks can sweep in at any moment without recourse shows the despot Maoism still in control with all power coming from the barrel of a gun.
        > When you espose Marx how do you ignore the millions slaughtered in name of his ideas. Yet little of communism seems to survive. Ask the germans who tore down that wall. Ask the Poles who retook Gedanske. I see failure and regression as the fruits of Marxist doctrine. Bill
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • eupraxis@aol.com
        Bill, Again, to each his own. I ll take Capital -- and Anna Kournikova. Wil ... From: William To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        Message 3 of 11 , Jul 1, 2010
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          Bill,

          Again, to each his own. I'll take Capital -- and Anna Kournikova.


          Wil






          -----Original Message-----
          From: William <v.valleywestdental@...>
          To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:41 pm
          Subject: [existlist] Re: To the party







          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote:
          >
          > Bill,
          >
          > I've spoken on this stuff before (socialism, communism, etc.), but I would not mind having another go at it, if you would like.
          >
          > As far as the bad citation goes, maybe our friend read something else as a 17 year old and just thought it was Capital? The thing is, for me the text is everything. You can interpret it any way you like; that's fair game. But if you say that Marx, etc., says XYZ in this or that text, and if that is the reason why you say you took issue with that text, then XYZ better be actually there.
          >
          > Wil
          > Wil, I understand you like to argue Ex Libra. If the text considered is The Declaration of Independance I might agree to a close reading. With Das Capital or Mein Kampth I will not play such a game. Just because something got into print does not make me read it . I will not reread Das Capital, I would have no stomach for it. I fought those bastards in the cold war and will not champion their literature by reading it.
          I would speak to the role of despotism of a marxist origin in the world we inhabit today. Is a Tokarev SVT40 a communist weapon when the same factory that made it for the Red Army is selling it to terrorists? I see Marx as a failed philosopher who lives on to plague our modern world. That you want him remembered might take me to the recent round up of russian deep moles. What were those clowns doing? If you can get me a date with Anna Chapman I will definitely play. Bill
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: William <v.valleywestdental@...>
          > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Thu, Jul 1, 2010 1:23 pm
          > Subject: [existlist] To the party
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > If you postulate that Lenin did or did not say this or that or Marx did not say this or that is irrelevant when terms like "dictatorship of the proletariate" are universally accepted as communist doctrine.
          > Again I expect the old dodge that real communism has never been tried. The christians use that one and that have been fucking things up for millenia.
          > Wil might do better by telling us what he thinks work with communism. How can it lead to a working system of commerce and government? If Marx and Lenin have been so maligned without cause what of their ideas have working promise. The dictator of Nicaragua booms and postures but continues to restrict and overpower his commrads with comfescation of assets and false democracy. Blame Teo Sam but time takes the despot closer to Castro than Jefferson.
          > Decriying capitalism rings even more to the tin ear as China trys to impose the system within their boundaries. That the tanks can sweep in at any moment without recourse shows the despot Maoism still in control with all power coming from the barrel of a gun.
          > When you espose Marx how do you ignore the millions slaughtered in name of his ideas. Yet little of communism seems to survive. Ask the germans who tore down that wall. Ask the Poles who retook Gedanske. I see failure and regression as the fruits of Marxist doctrine. Bill
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >









          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Herman
          Hi Brent, ... I m only coming in on this now because I just came across it. Apparently, Marx wrote as follows: Between capitalist and communist society there
          Message 4 of 11 , Jul 17, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi Brent,

            On 2 July 2010 05:12, Brent Irvine <brent.irvine@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > I still have the book - I will have to get home to see which one it may be.  As I read several books along Marxian and Rand/Libertarian lines around that time (including non-economic books one of which was "The Myth of Sisyphus"), it is entirely possible/probably in the ensuing 23 years my memory may be muddled about the exact attribution.  Nevertheless, I do recall drawing the conclusion that a "dictatorship of the Proletariat" doesn't bode well for an unpopular person (such as I was) in High School in a rather direct way - whether someone agrees or disagrees with this 23 year old conclusion is certainly one choice one has - though when one has the angst and alienation of a High Schooler, believing one's fate is in the hands directly of the majority of people around one (remember as a 17-18 year old, I was thinking "execution or labor camp")- does not make one feel confident in this philosophy.  I would pose the question, that while Marx may not have
            >  said it - it *is* one of the principle tenants of the Communist Revolution, no?
            >

            I'm only coming in on this now because I just came across it.
            Apparently, Marx wrote as follows:

            Between capitalist and communist society there lies the period of the
            revolutionary transformation of the one into the other. Corresponding
            to this is also a political transition period in which the state can
            be nothing, but the revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat. —
            Critique of the Gotha Program (1875)

            Cheers


            Polly


            > One thing that occurs to me is that in some cases - such as in the US - you cannot draw clearly the difference between Capitalist and Worker.  With the stock market, mutual fund, and pension funds - many many people (nearly all) of all social levels are both capitalists because they own stock directly or indirectly - and are also workers because they also sell their labor as well.  How would one make such a separation in a meaningful way without being arbitrary?  I seem to recall the Soviet's eventually persecuted the people they labeled as "Kulaks" who were successful peasant-farmers that don't strike me as a typical "top hat" Capitalist.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ________________________________
            > From: "eupraxis@..." <eupraxis@...>
            > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Thu, July 1, 2010 2:52:38 PM
            > Subject: Re: [existlist] To the party
            >
            >
            > Bill,
            >
            > I've spoken on this stuff before (socialism, communism, etc.), but I would not mind having another go at it, if you would like.
            >
            > As far as the bad citation goes, maybe our friend read something else as a 17 year old and just thought it was Capital? The thing is, for me the text is everything. You can interpret it any way you like; that's fair game. But if you say that Marx, etc., says XYZ in this or that text, and if that is the reason why you say you took issue with that text, then XYZ better be actually there.
            >
            > Wil
            >
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: William <v.valleywestdental@...>
            > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Thu, Jul 1, 2010 1:23 pm
            > Subject: [existlist] To the party
            >
            > If you postulate that Lenin did or did not say  this or that or  Marx did not say this or that is irrelevant when terms like "dictatorship of the proletariate" are universally accepted as communist doctrine.
            > Again I expect the old  dodge that real communism has never been tried. The christians use that one and that have been fucking things up for millenia.
            > Wil might do better by telling us what he thinks work with communism. How can it lead to a working system of commerce and government? If Marx and Lenin have been so maligned without cause what of their ideas have working promise.  The dictator of Nicaragua booms and postures but continues to restrict and overpower his commrads with comfescation of assets and false democracy.  Blame Teo Sam but time takes the despot closer to  Castro than Jefferson.
            > Decriying capitalism rings even more to the tin ear as China trys to impose the system within their boundaries. That the tanks can sweep in at any moment without recourse shows the despot Maoism still in control with all power coming from the barrel of a gun.
            > When you espose Marx how do you ignore the millions slaughtered in name of his ideas. Yet little of communism seems to survive. Ask the germans who tore down that wall. Ask the  Poles who retook  Gedanske. I see failure and regression as the fruits of Marxist doctrine. Bill
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
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