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Re: [existlist] To the party

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  • Brent Irvine
    I read Das Capital as well as Ayn Rand s The Fountainhead with my best friend in school (we were both 17-18 at the time). They seemed to be untenable
    Message 1 of 11 , Jul 1, 2010
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      I read Das Capital as well as Ayn Rand's The Fountainhead with my best friend in school (we were both 17-18 at the time). They seemed to be untenable extremes, though Marx was much more well thought out in my opinion. But at the heart of it was the fact that we'd have a "dictatorship of the proletariat" and given how poorly I got on with the more popular kids in school, and the popular kids would be essentially, collectively able to do whatever they liked to those of us who were less popular. I imagined my fate in such a system would not be much better than in High School only instead of be marginalized, would involve work camp or execution. From such a perspective it was astonishing to me the USSR lasted as long as it did at the time (c1985), but on no uncertain terms would I want to make that come about, let alone the more typical issues with Communism not rewarding entrepreneurial risk in a meaningful way and so on.


      My friend was less emotional about this, and pointed out that with labor laws most of the complaints of capitalism were being addressed without having collective ownership. That and Chernobyl in '86.

      We both thought Ayn Rand was more or less a joke - and made a symbol showing "Ayn-archy" with a Anarchist "A" with a small "yn" after it with an explanation point. Made some stickers and placed them around the school. (And we wondered why we weren't popular? LOL.)






      ________________________________
      From: William <v.valleywestdental@...>
      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thu, July 1, 2010 11:23:24 AM
      Subject: [existlist] To the party


      It is interesting that many here have had connections with communists. I have not and am examining just why I have no similar experience to relate. A priest who was a rabid anti communist may be at the root of my indoctrination.
      He was an old german priest,not a molester who hated russians and the USSR. When he heard that Nikita Kruschev was to visit the state and would drive right by his church he organised an exorcism.
      I was called from class and told to dress in cassock and surplice and to get the censor and holy water font. Roswell Garst was russian but a capitalist and the Premier was going to Coon Rapids to see a modern farm.
      We chanted and flung holy water and blew holy incense at the demon. It was stupid but colorful. I liked it and Kruschev smiled and waved.
      We were big on duck and cover at our school and the old priest gave fiery sermons against godless communism. I figured the old priest was right but noted that Nikita had a better car.
      Much later I got my name on a list for reading "Das Capital" but I did not like the concepts as I worked for my own money and enjoyed buying all sorts of things.
      When Lennon recorded "Imagine" I was taken aback but tried to imagine such a world. I had read some of the utopian writers and just did not like their pussified ideas of society. I viewed them as eastern,cyclic, and contemplative. I really disliked collectivism as it seemed in league with the nuns who I dispised. I wanted a westerm,progressive and dynamic world. I have lived in and of such a world all my life. I have been happy here and the poor buggers who starved made their own decisions.I find competative life mimics the evolutionary model of survival of the fittest. I have prospered in such an environment and therefore recommend it as an option. Bill




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • William
      ... So I think the party are the fooled and the fooled are the losers. The top elite rules all but to think he acts in the best interests of the underlings
      Message 2 of 11 , Jul 1, 2010
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        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Brent Irvine <brent.irvine@...> wrote:
        >
        > I read Das Capital as well as Ayn Rand's The Fountainhead with my best friend in school (we were both 17-18 at the time). They seemed to be untenable extremes, though Marx was much more well thought out in my opinion. But at the heart of it was the fact that we'd have a "dictatorship of the proletariat" and given how poorly I got on with the more popular kids in school, and the popular kids would be essentially, collectively able to do whatever they liked to those of us who were less popular. I imagined my fate in such a system would not be much better than in High School only instead of be marginalized, would involve work camp or execution. From such a perspective it was astonishing to me the USSR lasted as long as it did at the time (c1985), but on no uncertain terms would I want to make that come about, let alone the more typical issues with Communism not rewarding entrepreneurial risk in a meaningful way and so on.
        >
        >
        > My friend was less emotional about this, and pointed out that with labor laws most of the complaints of capitalism were being addressed without having collective ownership. That and Chernobyl in '86.
        >
        > We both thought Ayn Rand was more or less a joke - and made a symbol showing "Ayn-archy" with a Anarchist "A" with a small "yn" after it with an explanation point. Made some stickers and placed them around the school. (And we wondered why we weren't popular? LOL.)
        >
        > Brent, I have never factored popularity into this situation but think the proletariate would be the masses not the elites. To me the "dictatorship of the proletariate " is a complete ill position of terms. The dictator is a singularity who speaks from the chair. I see little difference from a traditional king,warlord or strong man. That all could be strong men is irrational. As more found the king was fallable and vulnerable they demanded a voice and took it. Democracy comes closer to a dictatorship of the proletariate than communism. Communism is just strong man rule with new terms invented to quiet the mob. The Caesers threw bread and gold to the mobs and Stalin more resembled a Caesar than an American President. Mao used the cult of personality to hold power in the chinese version of communism. The trick for a despot is to seem godlike and I am against gods and despots.
        So I think "the party" are the fooled and the fooled are the losers. The top elite rules all but to think he acts in the best interests of the underlings is foolish. He acts to remain in power and all methods are at his command. When so many became involved in society the fittest was forced to relinquish a great deal of his power. Communism is a step back and is rightly discarded as a false path not a shining one. Bill
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ________________________________
        > From: William <v.valleywestdental@...>
        > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Thu, July 1, 2010 11:23:24 AM
        > Subject: [existlist] To the party
        >
        >
        > It is interesting that many here have had connections with communists. I have not and am examining just why I have no similar experience to relate. A priest who was a rabid anti communist may be at the root of my indoctrination.
        > He was an old german priest,not a molester who hated russians and the USSR. When he heard that Nikita Kruschev was to visit the state and would drive right by his church he organised an exorcism.
        > I was called from class and told to dress in cassock and surplice and to get the censor and holy water font. Roswell Garst was russian but a capitalist and the Premier was going to Coon Rapids to see a modern farm.
        > We chanted and flung holy water and blew holy incense at the demon. It was stupid but colorful. I liked it and Kruschev smiled and waved.
        > We were big on duck and cover at our school and the old priest gave fiery sermons against godless communism. I figured the old priest was right but noted that Nikita had a better car.
        > Much later I got my name on a list for reading "Das Capital" but I did not like the concepts as I worked for my own money and enjoyed buying all sorts of things.
        > When Lennon recorded "Imagine" I was taken aback but tried to imagine such a world. I had read some of the utopian writers and just did not like their pussified ideas of society. I viewed them as eastern,cyclic, and contemplative. I really disliked collectivism as it seemed in league with the nuns who I dispised. I wanted a westerm,progressive and dynamic world. I have lived in and of such a world all my life. I have been happy here and the poor buggers who starved made their own decisions.I find competative life mimics the evolutionary model of survival of the fittest. I have prospered in such an environment and therefore recommend it as an option. Bill
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • eupraxis@aol.com
        To each, his own; but I have never read a more profound text as Capital, I found nothing extreme in it. Quite to the contrary. Read it again, now that you
        Message 3 of 11 , Jul 1, 2010
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          To each, his own; but I have never read a more profound text as Capital, I found nothing "extreme" in it. Quite to the contrary. Read it again, now that you are older than 18, at least Volume One. And the Towards a Contribution to the Critique of Political Economy.

          Incidentally, "dictatorship of the proletariat" does not appear in Capital.

          Best,
          Wil



          -----Original Message-----
          From: Brent Irvine <brent.irvine@...>
          To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thu, Jul 1, 2010 11:11 am
          Subject: Re: [existlist] To the party





          I read Das Capital as well as Ayn Rand's The Fountainhead with my best friend in school (we were both 17-18 at the time). They seemed to be untenable extremes, though Marx was much more well thought out in my opinion. But at the heart of it was the fact that we'd have a "dictatorship of the proletariat" and given how poorly I got on with the more popular kids in school, and the popular kids would be essentially, collectively able to do whatever they liked to those of us who were less popular. I imagined my fate in such a system would not be much better than in High School only instead of be marginalized, would involve work camp or execution. From such a perspective it was astonishing to me the USSR lasted as long as it did at the time (c1985), but on no uncertain terms would I want to make that come about, let alone the more typical issues with Communism not rewarding entrepreneurial risk in a meaningful way and so on.

          My friend was less emotional about this, and pointed out that with labor laws most of the complaints of capitalism were being addressed without having collective ownership. That and Chernobyl in '86.

          We both thought Ayn Rand was more or less a joke - and made a symbol showing "Ayn-archy" with a Anarchist "A" with a small "yn" after it with an explanation point. Made some stickers and placed them around the school. (And we wondered why we weren't popular? LOL.)

          ________________________________
          From: William <v.valleywestdental@...>
          To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thu, July 1, 2010 11:23:24 AM
          Subject: [existlist] To the party

          It is interesting that many here have had connections with communists. I have not and am examining just why I have no similar experience to relate. A priest who was a rabid anti communist may be at the root of my indoctrination.
          He was an old german priest,not a molester who hated russians and the USSR. When he heard that Nikita Kruschev was to visit the state and would drive right by his church he organised an exorcism.
          I was called from class and told to dress in cassock and surplice and to get the censor and holy water font. Roswell Garst was russian but a capitalist and the Premier was going to Coon Rapids to see a modern farm.
          We chanted and flung holy water and blew holy incense at the demon. It was stupid but colorful. I liked it and Kruschev smiled and waved.
          We were big on duck and cover at our school and the old priest gave fiery sermons against godless communism. I figured the old priest was right but noted that Nikita had a better car.
          Much later I got my name on a list for reading "Das Capital" but I did not like the concepts as I worked for my own money and enjoyed buying all sorts of things.
          When Lennon recorded "Imagine" I was taken aback but tried to imagine such a world. I had read some of the utopian writers and just did not like their pussified ideas of society. I viewed them as eastern,cyclic, and contemplative. I really disliked collectivism as it seemed in league with the nuns who I dispised. I wanted a westerm,progressive and dynamic world. I have lived in and of such a world all my life. I have been happy here and the poor buggers who starved made their own decisions.I find competative life mimics the evolutionary model of survival of the fittest. I have prospered in such an environment and therefore recommend it as an option. Bill

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • William
          If you postulate that Lenin did or did not say this or that or Marx did not say this or that is irrelevant when terms like dictatorship of the proletariate
          Message 4 of 11 , Jul 1, 2010
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            If you postulate that Lenin did or did not say this or that or Marx did not say this or that is irrelevant when terms like "dictatorship of the proletariate" are universally accepted as communist doctrine.
            Again I expect the old dodge that real communism has never been tried. The christians use that one and that have been fucking things up for millenia.
            Wil might do better by telling us what he thinks work with communism. How can it lead to a working system of commerce and government? If Marx and Lenin have been so maligned without cause what of their ideas have working promise. The dictator of Nicaragua booms and postures but continues to restrict and overpower his commrads with comfescation of assets and false democracy. Blame Teo Sam but time takes the despot closer to Castro than Jefferson.
            Decriying capitalism rings even more to the tin ear as China trys to impose the system within their boundaries. That the tanks can sweep in at any moment without recourse shows the despot Maoism still in control with all power coming from the barrel of a gun.
            When you espose Marx how do you ignore the millions slaughtered in name of his ideas. Yet little of communism seems to survive. Ask the germans who tore down that wall. Ask the Poles who retook Gedanske. I see failure and regression as the fruits of Marxist doctrine. Bill
          • eupraxis@aol.com
            Bill, I ve spoken on this stuff before (socialism, communism, etc.), but I would not mind having another go at it, if you would like. As far as the bad
            Message 5 of 11 , Jul 1, 2010
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              Bill,

              I've spoken on this stuff before (socialism, communism, etc.), but I would not mind having another go at it, if you would like.

              As far as the bad citation goes, maybe our friend read something else as a 17 year old and just thought it was Capital? The thing is, for me the text is everything. You can interpret it any way you like; that's fair game. But if you say that Marx, etc., says XYZ in this or that text, and if that is the reason why you say you took issue with that text, then XYZ better be actually there.

              Wil


              -----Original Message-----
              From: William <v.valleywestdental@...>
              To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thu, Jul 1, 2010 1:23 pm
              Subject: [existlist] To the party





              If you postulate that Lenin did or did not say this or that or Marx did not say this or that is irrelevant when terms like "dictatorship of the proletariate" are universally accepted as communist doctrine.
              Again I expect the old dodge that real communism has never been tried. The christians use that one and that have been fucking things up for millenia.
              Wil might do better by telling us what he thinks work with communism. How can it lead to a working system of commerce and government? If Marx and Lenin have been so maligned without cause what of their ideas have working promise. The dictator of Nicaragua booms and postures but continues to restrict and overpower his commrads with comfescation of assets and false democracy. Blame Teo Sam but time takes the despot closer to Castro than Jefferson.
              Decriying capitalism rings even more to the tin ear as China trys to impose the system within their boundaries. That the tanks can sweep in at any moment without recourse shows the despot Maoism still in control with all power coming from the barrel of a gun.
              When you espose Marx how do you ignore the millions slaughtered in name of his ideas. Yet little of communism seems to survive. Ask the germans who tore down that wall. Ask the Poles who retook Gedanske. I see failure and regression as the fruits of Marxist doctrine. Bill









              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Brent Irvine
              I still have the book - I will have to get home to see which one it may be. As I read several books along Marxian and Rand/Libertarian lines around that time
              Message 6 of 11 , Jul 1, 2010
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                I still have the book - I will have to get home to see which one it may be. As I read several books along Marxian and Rand/Libertarian lines around that time (including non-economic books one of which was "The Myth of Sisyphus"), it is entirely possible/probably in the ensuing 23 years my memory may be muddled about the exact attribution. Nevertheless, I do recall drawing the conclusion that a "dictatorship of the Proletariat" doesn't bode well for an unpopular person (such as I was) in High School in a rather direct way - whether someone agrees or disagrees with this 23 year old conclusion is certainly one choice one has - though when one has the angst and alienation of a High Schooler, believing one's fate is in the hands directly of the majority of people around one (remember as a 17-18 year old, I was thinking "execution or labor camp")- does not make one feel confident in this philosophy. I would pose the question, that while Marx may not have
                said it - it *is* one of the principle tenants of the Communist Revolution, no?

                One thing that occurs to me is that in some cases - such as in the US - you cannot draw clearly the difference between Capitalist and Worker. With the stock market, mutual fund, and pension funds - many many people (nearly all) of all social levels are both capitalists because they own stock directly or indirectly - and are also workers because they also sell their labor as well. How would one make such a separation in a meaningful way without being arbitrary? I seem to recall the Soviet's eventually persecuted the people they labeled as "Kulaks" who were successful peasant-farmers that don't strike me as a typical "top hat" Capitalist.





                ________________________________
                From: "eupraxis@..." <eupraxis@...>
                To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thu, July 1, 2010 2:52:38 PM
                Subject: Re: [existlist] To the party


                Bill,

                I've spoken on this stuff before (socialism, communism, etc.), but I would not mind having another go at it, if you would like.

                As far as the bad citation goes, maybe our friend read something else as a 17 year old and just thought it was Capital? The thing is, for me the text is everything. You can interpret it any way you like; that's fair game. But if you say that Marx, etc., says XYZ in this or that text, and if that is the reason why you say you took issue with that text, then XYZ better be actually there.

                Wil


                -----Original Message-----
                From: William <v.valleywestdental@...>
                To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thu, Jul 1, 2010 1:23 pm
                Subject: [existlist] To the party

                If you postulate that Lenin did or did not say this or that or Marx did not say this or that is irrelevant when terms like "dictatorship of the proletariate" are universally accepted as communist doctrine.
                Again I expect the old dodge that real communism has never been tried. The christians use that one and that have been fucking things up for millenia.
                Wil might do better by telling us what he thinks work with communism. How can it lead to a working system of commerce and government? If Marx and Lenin have been so maligned without cause what of their ideas have working promise. The dictator of Nicaragua booms and postures but continues to restrict and overpower his commrads with comfescation of assets and false democracy. Blame Teo Sam but time takes the despot closer to Castro than Jefferson.
                Decriying capitalism rings even more to the tin ear as China trys to impose the system within their boundaries. That the tanks can sweep in at any moment without recourse shows the despot Maoism still in control with all power coming from the barrel of a gun.
                When you espose Marx how do you ignore the millions slaughtered in name of his ideas. Yet little of communism seems to survive. Ask the germans who tore down that wall. Ask the Poles who retook Gedanske. I see failure and regression as the fruits of Marxist doctrine. Bill

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • eupraxis@aol.com
                Thanks Brent, Yeah, I hate anything with dictatorship in the title myself. No one uses that phrase anymore, including hardcore pinkos. Wil ... From: Brent
                Message 7 of 11 , Jul 1, 2010
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                  Thanks Brent,

                  Yeah, I hate anything with dictatorship in the title myself. No one uses that phrase anymore, including hardcore pinkos.

                  Wil



                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Brent Irvine <brent.irvine@...>
                  To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:12 pm
                  Subject: Re: [existlist] To the party







                  I still have the book - I will have to get home to see which one it may be. As I read several books along Marxian and Rand/Libertarian lines around that time (including non-economic books one of which was "The Myth of Sisyphus"), it is entirely possible/probably in the ensuing 23 years my memory may be muddled about the exact attribution. Nevertheless, I do recall drawing the conclusion that a "dictatorship of the Proletariat" doesn't bode well for an unpopular person (such as I was) in High School in a rather direct way - whether someone agrees or disagrees with this 23 year old conclusion is certainly one choice one has - though when one has the angst and alienation of a High Schooler, believing one's fate is in the hands directly of the majority of people around one (remember as a 17-18 year old, I was thinking "execution or labor camp")- does not make one feel confident in this philosophy. I would pose the question, that while Marx may not have
                  said it - it *is* one of the principle tenants of the Communist Revolution, no?

                  One thing that occurs to me is that in some cases - such as in the US - you cannot draw clearly the difference between Capitalist and Worker. With the stock market, mutual fund, and pension funds - many many people (nearly all) of all social levels are both capitalists because they own stock directly or indirectly - and are also workers because they also sell their labor as well. How would one make such a separation in a meaningful way without being arbitrary? I seem to recall the Soviet's eventually persecuted the people they labeled as "Kulaks" who were successful peasant-farmers that don't strike me as a typical "top hat" Capitalist.

                  ________________________________
                  From: "eupraxis@..." <eupraxis@...>
                  To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Thu, July 1, 2010 2:52:38 PM
                  Subject: Re: [existlist] To the party

                  Bill,

                  I've spoken on this stuff before (socialism, communism, etc.), but I would not mind having another go at it, if you would like.

                  As far as the bad citation goes, maybe our friend read something else as a 17 year old and just thought it was Capital? The thing is, for me the text is everything. You can interpret it any way you like; that's fair game. But if you say that Marx, etc., says XYZ in this or that text, and if that is the reason why you say you took issue with that text, then XYZ better be actually there.

                  Wil

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: William <v.valleywestdental@...>
                  To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Thu, Jul 1, 2010 1:23 pm
                  Subject: [existlist] To the party

                  If you postulate that Lenin did or did not say this or that or Marx did not say this or that is irrelevant when terms like "dictatorship of the proletariate" are universally accepted as communist doctrine.
                  Again I expect the old dodge that real communism has never been tried. The christians use that one and that have been fucking things up for millenia.
                  Wil might do better by telling us what he thinks work with communism. How can it lead to a working system of commerce and government? If Marx and Lenin have been so maligned without cause what of their ideas have working promise. The dictator of Nicaragua booms and postures but continues to restrict and overpower his commrads with comfescation of assets and false democracy. Blame Teo Sam but time takes the despot closer to Castro than Jefferson.
                  Decriying capitalism rings even more to the tin ear as China trys to impose the system within their boundaries. That the tanks can sweep in at any moment without recourse shows the despot Maoism still in control with all power coming from the barrel of a gun.
                  When you espose Marx how do you ignore the millions slaughtered in name of his ideas. Yet little of communism seems to survive. Ask the germans who tore down that wall. Ask the Poles who retook Gedanske. I see failure and regression as the fruits of Marxist doctrine. Bill

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • William
                  ... I would speak to the role of despotism of a marxist origin in the world we inhabit today. Is a Tokarev SVT40 a communist weapon when the same factory that
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jul 1, 2010
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                    --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote:
                    >
                    > Bill,
                    >
                    > I've spoken on this stuff before (socialism, communism, etc.), but I would not mind having another go at it, if you would like.
                    >
                    > As far as the bad citation goes, maybe our friend read something else as a 17 year old and just thought it was Capital? The thing is, for me the text is everything. You can interpret it any way you like; that's fair game. But if you say that Marx, etc., says XYZ in this or that text, and if that is the reason why you say you took issue with that text, then XYZ better be actually there.
                    >
                    > Wil
                    > Wil, I understand you like to argue Ex Libra. If the text considered is The Declaration of Independance I might agree to a close reading. With Das Capital or Mein Kampth I will not play such a game. Just because something got into print does not make me read it . I will not reread Das Capital, I would have no stomach for it. I fought those bastards in the cold war and will not champion their literature by reading it.
                    I would speak to the role of despotism of a marxist origin in the world we inhabit today. Is a Tokarev SVT40 a communist weapon when the same factory that made it for the Red Army is selling it to terrorists? I see Marx as a failed philosopher who lives on to plague our modern world. That you want him remembered might take me to the recent round up of russian deep moles. What were those clowns doing? If you can get me a date with Anna Chapman I will definitely play. Bill
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: William <v.valleywestdental@...>
                    > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Thu, Jul 1, 2010 1:23 pm
                    > Subject: [existlist] To the party
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > If you postulate that Lenin did or did not say this or that or Marx did not say this or that is irrelevant when terms like "dictatorship of the proletariate" are universally accepted as communist doctrine.
                    > Again I expect the old dodge that real communism has never been tried. The christians use that one and that have been fucking things up for millenia.
                    > Wil might do better by telling us what he thinks work with communism. How can it lead to a working system of commerce and government? If Marx and Lenin have been so maligned without cause what of their ideas have working promise. The dictator of Nicaragua booms and postures but continues to restrict and overpower his commrads with comfescation of assets and false democracy. Blame Teo Sam but time takes the despot closer to Castro than Jefferson.
                    > Decriying capitalism rings even more to the tin ear as China trys to impose the system within their boundaries. That the tanks can sweep in at any moment without recourse shows the despot Maoism still in control with all power coming from the barrel of a gun.
                    > When you espose Marx how do you ignore the millions slaughtered in name of his ideas. Yet little of communism seems to survive. Ask the germans who tore down that wall. Ask the Poles who retook Gedanske. I see failure and regression as the fruits of Marxist doctrine. Bill
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • eupraxis@aol.com
                    Bill, Again, to each his own. I ll take Capital -- and Anna Kournikova. Wil ... From: William To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jul 1, 2010
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                      Bill,

                      Again, to each his own. I'll take Capital -- and Anna Kournikova.


                      Wil






                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: William <v.valleywestdental@...>
                      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Thu, Jul 1, 2010 2:41 pm
                      Subject: [existlist] Re: To the party







                      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote:
                      >
                      > Bill,
                      >
                      > I've spoken on this stuff before (socialism, communism, etc.), but I would not mind having another go at it, if you would like.
                      >
                      > As far as the bad citation goes, maybe our friend read something else as a 17 year old and just thought it was Capital? The thing is, for me the text is everything. You can interpret it any way you like; that's fair game. But if you say that Marx, etc., says XYZ in this or that text, and if that is the reason why you say you took issue with that text, then XYZ better be actually there.
                      >
                      > Wil
                      > Wil, I understand you like to argue Ex Libra. If the text considered is The Declaration of Independance I might agree to a close reading. With Das Capital or Mein Kampth I will not play such a game. Just because something got into print does not make me read it . I will not reread Das Capital, I would have no stomach for it. I fought those bastards in the cold war and will not champion their literature by reading it.
                      I would speak to the role of despotism of a marxist origin in the world we inhabit today. Is a Tokarev SVT40 a communist weapon when the same factory that made it for the Red Army is selling it to terrorists? I see Marx as a failed philosopher who lives on to plague our modern world. That you want him remembered might take me to the recent round up of russian deep moles. What were those clowns doing? If you can get me a date with Anna Chapman I will definitely play. Bill
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: William <v.valleywestdental@...>
                      > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Thu, Jul 1, 2010 1:23 pm
                      > Subject: [existlist] To the party
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > If you postulate that Lenin did or did not say this or that or Marx did not say this or that is irrelevant when terms like "dictatorship of the proletariate" are universally accepted as communist doctrine.
                      > Again I expect the old dodge that real communism has never been tried. The christians use that one and that have been fucking things up for millenia.
                      > Wil might do better by telling us what he thinks work with communism. How can it lead to a working system of commerce and government? If Marx and Lenin have been so maligned without cause what of their ideas have working promise. The dictator of Nicaragua booms and postures but continues to restrict and overpower his commrads with comfescation of assets and false democracy. Blame Teo Sam but time takes the despot closer to Castro than Jefferson.
                      > Decriying capitalism rings even more to the tin ear as China trys to impose the system within their boundaries. That the tanks can sweep in at any moment without recourse shows the despot Maoism still in control with all power coming from the barrel of a gun.
                      > When you espose Marx how do you ignore the millions slaughtered in name of his ideas. Yet little of communism seems to survive. Ask the germans who tore down that wall. Ask the Poles who retook Gedanske. I see failure and regression as the fruits of Marxist doctrine. Bill
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                    • Herman
                      Hi Brent, ... I m only coming in on this now because I just came across it. Apparently, Marx wrote as follows: Between capitalist and communist society there
                      Message 10 of 11 , Jul 17, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hi Brent,

                        On 2 July 2010 05:12, Brent Irvine <brent.irvine@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > I still have the book - I will have to get home to see which one it may be.  As I read several books along Marxian and Rand/Libertarian lines around that time (including non-economic books one of which was "The Myth of Sisyphus"), it is entirely possible/probably in the ensuing 23 years my memory may be muddled about the exact attribution.  Nevertheless, I do recall drawing the conclusion that a "dictatorship of the Proletariat" doesn't bode well for an unpopular person (such as I was) in High School in a rather direct way - whether someone agrees or disagrees with this 23 year old conclusion is certainly one choice one has - though when one has the angst and alienation of a High Schooler, believing one's fate is in the hands directly of the majority of people around one (remember as a 17-18 year old, I was thinking "execution or labor camp")- does not make one feel confident in this philosophy.  I would pose the question, that while Marx may not have
                        >  said it - it *is* one of the principle tenants of the Communist Revolution, no?
                        >

                        I'm only coming in on this now because I just came across it.
                        Apparently, Marx wrote as follows:

                        Between capitalist and communist society there lies the period of the
                        revolutionary transformation of the one into the other. Corresponding
                        to this is also a political transition period in which the state can
                        be nothing, but the revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat. —
                        Critique of the Gotha Program (1875)

                        Cheers


                        Polly


                        > One thing that occurs to me is that in some cases - such as in the US - you cannot draw clearly the difference between Capitalist and Worker.  With the stock market, mutual fund, and pension funds - many many people (nearly all) of all social levels are both capitalists because they own stock directly or indirectly - and are also workers because they also sell their labor as well.  How would one make such a separation in a meaningful way without being arbitrary?  I seem to recall the Soviet's eventually persecuted the people they labeled as "Kulaks" who were successful peasant-farmers that don't strike me as a typical "top hat" Capitalist.
                        >
                        >
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                        >
                        >
                        > ________________________________
                        > From: "eupraxis@..." <eupraxis@...>
                        > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Thu, July 1, 2010 2:52:38 PM
                        > Subject: Re: [existlist] To the party
                        >
                        >
                        > Bill,
                        >
                        > I've spoken on this stuff before (socialism, communism, etc.), but I would not mind having another go at it, if you would like.
                        >
                        > As far as the bad citation goes, maybe our friend read something else as a 17 year old and just thought it was Capital? The thing is, for me the text is everything. You can interpret it any way you like; that's fair game. But if you say that Marx, etc., says XYZ in this or that text, and if that is the reason why you say you took issue with that text, then XYZ better be actually there.
                        >
                        > Wil
                        >
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: William <v.valleywestdental@...>
                        > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Thu, Jul 1, 2010 1:23 pm
                        > Subject: [existlist] To the party
                        >
                        > If you postulate that Lenin did or did not say  this or that or  Marx did not say this or that is irrelevant when terms like "dictatorship of the proletariate" are universally accepted as communist doctrine.
                        > Again I expect the old  dodge that real communism has never been tried. The christians use that one and that have been fucking things up for millenia.
                        > Wil might do better by telling us what he thinks work with communism. How can it lead to a working system of commerce and government? If Marx and Lenin have been so maligned without cause what of their ideas have working promise.  The dictator of Nicaragua booms and postures but continues to restrict and overpower his commrads with comfescation of assets and false democracy.  Blame Teo Sam but time takes the despot closer to  Castro than Jefferson.
                        > Decriying capitalism rings even more to the tin ear as China trys to impose the system within their boundaries. That the tanks can sweep in at any moment without recourse shows the despot Maoism still in control with all power coming from the barrel of a gun.
                        > When you espose Marx how do you ignore the millions slaughtered in name of his ideas. Yet little of communism seems to survive. Ask the germans who tore down that wall. Ask the  Poles who retook  Gedanske. I see failure and regression as the fruits of Marxist doctrine. Bill
                        >
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